EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 534
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On August 25 2016 02:32 a_flayer wrote: I don't think so. I think they're about equally far removed (or nearby, for that matter). You can call me a socialist or something if you like in terms of my political views. I'll also say that I don't particularly like multinationals and especially dislike the power that corporations seem to hold over politics. I also don't like the domestic focus on religion in both Russia and the US. And... I'll admit that only a couple of weeks ago I was also somewhat "Russophobic" (although I've never heard that term before). I had a bit of an epiphany when I started looking into things from a Russian perspective and found myself turning around my opinion rather harshly (maybe not 180, but 120 degrees?). I do think there is a narrative in the media against Russia that is coming from the US or from older views that simply don't hold true anymore. If that invalidates my opinion according to you (whoever might be reading this), then I'm really sorry. you weren't the person who used the term russophobic first; so I got no quarrel on that. It's not really a useful term, so I try to avoid it; as it bears little relation to true phobias in most cases. Russia's perspective is certainly understandable, still immoral, but understandable. I don't really see an anti-russia narrative particularly in the media, though there are surely strains of that coming from some polities. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On August 24 2016 20:28 WhiteDog wrote: Reform it the french way it's easy ... cut some head, and then voilà. I propose Jean-Claude Juncker. The sad thing is that's not as far from the truth as it sounds. On August 25 2016 02:50 OtherWorld wrote: Oh hey Ukraine thread, long time no see And we all know where that leads. Which is why I generally avoid that discussion in the first place. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On August 25 2016 02:46 RvB wrote: Give me a credible source on NATO troops in Ukraine and I'll believe you. The problems with democracy in Europe and the US compared to the problems in Russia are in different leagues. Putin gained a super majority in parliament with less than 38% of yhe vote in his first election. The last national elections was full of voting fraud. Yes he's popular but that's also because he controls the state and the media. That's not democracy. I'll agree witb you that the west has double standards but Russia deserves a lot of the shit it gets. www.bloomberg.com In general I can agree with you that the EU has to cooperate to defend its own interests better but the US should still be our ally regardless. They've been as good an ally as you can expect from a superpower. You are absolutely and 100% right on NATO not being present in Ukraine. I was wrong there. I should probably stop watching TV or believing what I am seeing there, if I remember it correctly at all. Still, them possibly joining NATO is more or less the same thing (in that it expands the borders of NATOs activities to a place where it was not supposed to be) and obviously forced Putin's hand in terms of securing his naval base there before this came to terms, even if you can reason that it did not violate the original agreement in some ways. I'm also not so sure if Russia and the US are in entirely different leagues in terms of corruption. I mean, controlling media through SuperPACs, and whatnot... Have you seen the constant barrage of hate commercials that Americans have to endure? It's unsettling at the very least. Not to mention the lobbying and outright bribes. I'll grant you the murders and imprisonment though, obviously. And this was what originally turned my opinion from the constant barrage against Russia that I was getting from watching the American election in horror as it developed (that is a hard to follow sentence, I hope you can understand what I mean to say with it). That Cohen guy seems to make a lot of sense to me: | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
I agree there's some sketchy stuff in the US; but there's also times where lots of money and power just fails. As I haven't been in Russia I can't compare personally; but from all the sources I've seen, corruption is way worse there, and far more routine. Here's a source who's quality you can judge for yourself: https://www.transparency.org/country/ That Cohen guy was very sensible; unlike Trump  Most of the russian stuff re: trump was just in the past couple months though iirc. and as much focused on trump as on russia. it's already been fizzling out somewhat perhaps. certainly some things there that are suspicious, but far from definitive. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On August 25 2016 05:14 zlefin wrote: flayer -> NATO wasn't going to let ukraine in anyways, it's far too lousy a place to qualify. Also, in what way was NATO not supposed to be there (not that it was anyways)? What original agreement are you referring to? I agree there's some sketchy stuff in the US; but there's also times where lots of money and power just fails. As I haven't been in Russia I can't compare personally; but from all the sources I've seen, corruption is way worse there, and far more routine. Here's a source who's quality you can judge for yourself: https://www.transparency.org/country/ That Cohen guy was very sensible; unlike Trump Most of the russian stuff re: trump was just in the past couple months though iirc. and as much focused on trump as on russia. it's already been fizzling out somewhat perhaps. certainly some things there that are suspicious, but far from definitive. I dunno, some sort of agreement at the sort-of end of the Cold War in the 80s. Maybe its about time we disband NATO or focus its efforts on fighting terrorism or something so we don't all have to be spied on by our own governments who seem to be deathly afraid of their own citizens now. I'm bloody not allowed to leave my own fucking house without the proper paperwork. What the hell is wrong with people for letting it get to this point. But we're getting far, far, very far from the original point now, which was what the EU should do/be. Also, that short clip of Cohen is just where I started. He talks a lot more, and I started looking up translations of some of Putins speeches at various events as well to get a more Russian perspective. He talked a bit about respecting the sovereignty of other nations, which I felt was something that the Americans were rather lacking in. That no-compromise attitude. Trump is probably a good example of that I think. The thought that he even has just 30-40% support is terrifying. On August 25 2016 05:49 LegalLord wrote: Corruption is definitely worse in Russia. There have been leaps and bounds over the course of the Putin years but keep in mind that the 1990s were a time of private individuals stealing whatever public assets they could, so it's substantial improvement from a VERY low point. I could go into detail on various issues being considered but I really doubt anyone cares about Russian domestic politics. So, Russian oligarchs are corrupt and a problem, and Putin put one of them who was running against him in an election in prison and killed another one, and this is a problem somehow? Looks like he may have done the country a favor there XD I mean do we know how these guys acquired their wealth? I'm just saying here... (this is mostly a joke, because I cba to go into this any further in a serious manner, nor do I know much about domestic Russian politics) Why do I get the feeling that the Americans have my IP bookmarked as a Russian sympathizer now. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
Khodorkovsky broke that agreement and possibly worked with foreign governments to undermine the Russian leadership. So he was charged with the crimes he committed and sent to prison. The EU agreed that the trial was valid, even if the motive for bringing the charges was possibly politically motivated. A few years later, he was pardoned and picked up as one of the regulars on the "blame Putin for everything" show in the Western world. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
Russia's not a threat to west europe at the moment; though it remains a substantial threat to many parts of east europe. you were always getting spied on by your own government, it was just less talked about (or people didn't care); also the tech for mass cameras everywhere just wasn't cheap enough. heheh, russians talking about respecting the sovereignty of other nations. certainly the americans do have quite a few issues as well in that regard. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22088 Posts
On August 25 2016 06:25 a_flayer wrote: I dunno, some sort of agreement at the sort-of end of the Cold War in the 80s. Maybe its about time we disband NATO or focus its efforts on fighting terrorism or something so we don't all have to be spied on by our own governments who seem to be deathly afraid of their own citizens now. I'm bloody not allowed to leave my own fucking house without the proper paperwork. What the hell is wrong with people for letting it get to this point. But we're getting far, far, very far from the original point now, which was what the EU should do/be. Also, that short clip of Cohen is just where I started. He talks a lot more, and I started looking up translations of some of Putins speeches at various events as well to get a more Russian perspective. He talked a bit about respecting the sovereignty of other nations, which I felt was something that the Americans were rather lacking in. That no-compromise attitude. Trump is probably a good example of that I think. The thought that he even has just 30-40% support is terrifying. So, Russian oligarchs are corrupt and a problem, and Putin put one of them who was running against him in an election in prison and killed another one, and this is a problem somehow? Looks like he may have done the country a favor there XD I mean do we know how these guys acquired their wealth? I'm just saying here... (this is mostly a joke, because I cba to go into this any further in a serious manner, nor do I know much about domestic Russian politics) Why do I get the feeling that the Americans have my IP bookmarked as a Russian sympathizer now. I'm sorry but your just talking to much shit for me not to respond. For one your comments show you to be very misinformed. For someone who claims to be trying to find the truth you were rather quick to believe NATO forces where in the Ukraine from whatever RT site you got it. Disband NATO? And what would that accomplish? It would certainly not stop governments spying on its own citizens since that is something they have done since the dawn of time. We just notice it more because the digital era has dumped all our 'secrets' on the internet. If anything European nations will become more of a puppet of America. Its a lot harder to get a NATO resolution for a conflict then it is to separately convince a couple of nations like England or France to commit to America's agenda. What exactly do you think disbanding NATO would accomplish? Not allowed to leave your house with paperwork? I am going to assume you are Dutch as your profile says so.. WTF dude. The only 'required' piece of paper is a form of identification so you cant commit a minor crime and lie about your identity if your caught to avoid a ticket. like.. wtf are you smoking? There is no curfew, no law against going outside whenever you damn well please. And wow, you mean Putin doesn't shout "Death to the West" in his interview? Certainly someone as 'intelligent' as you should realize that the words spoken in front of a scripted interview are beyond meaningless towards anyone true intention? How did he respect the sovereignty of the Ukraine? of Georgia? of Chechnya? And to top it all off you call the assassinations of political opponents a good thing? You seriously sound like some angsty teenager desperately looking to 'fight the system'. Keeping a critical perspective is fine but you have gone way off the deep end in your need to find fault. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
I knew I should not have even mentioned disbanding since you would obviously focus on that part of the statement entirely, but perhaps its focus can be fighting the more real threat of Islamic extremism/ISIS (although honestly I think the threat of terrorism is exaggerated as well) instead of the more fictitious threat of Russia. I mean has NATO continued to expand over the past 20 years or not, despite the collapse of the Soviet Union and the supposed end of the Cold War? Besides the assassination was never proven, and the imprisonment was approved by the EU as LegalLord pointed out. And if that guy is railing against Putin constantly and the west needs scapegoat... well honestly, maybe Putin isn't the demon he is made out to be, so yeah, I am going to listen what he is saying just to even out my point of view a little. I think if we leave Russia to sort out its internal mess, and treat them according to the same standard we treat America, they are not a threat to our way of life in Europe and I feel that building up a network of missile systems across its border is unnecessary and simply a provocation to start a war, rather than something that will "keep the peace". Imagine if we built a network of missiles around America? How would they respond to such an act? I am truly annoyed with some the recent information laws that have been passed to legalize and expand on the spying of citizens and I am certain that part of the justification has been for "fighting terrorism". Keeping logs of every URL I visit, etc... I understand that technology changes, but that doesn't mean I have to like it when these kinds of laws are introduced. And sure I am taking a bit of an extreme standpoint in the way I put things to words here, I'm not very good at subtlety. But thanks for the personal slight, that was nice. Edit: Also, I know I am naive. I will often believe people at their word and have suffered the consequences of this. But the primary reason why I have taken a rather pro-Russia stance is because I am seeing a lot of hatred being spewn their way, and I have a strong dislike for hate. Aside from the fact that I will often take the opposite view simply because of that alone, I think if you throw hate at people, they will hate you right back. I watched some Putin interviews with Russian people, and he talked to -them- about respecting the other nations when they asked their questions regarding policies and events. Even if that is propaganda, he is still telling them -that-, and not "the west is a threat to our way of life" or some other general message that inspires hate. He wasn't talking to western people about this. So is it really necessary to dismiss the message entirely simply because it was him appearing on a state-run TV channel or because it was potentially scripted? Note that I definitely do not want to live in Russia because I know there is active censorship going on and whatnot (whatnot=various domestic policies I don't agree with), but I just don't see them as a threat to Europe or the west. Just leave them be. Compare Putins message to the Russian people to the rhetoric that was heard at the Republican National Convention for example. Both were directed at their own citizens, but seemed to have a rather different tone... Now, I'll grant you that it -is- possible that the translated message that I saw on some youtube channel was planted there by Putins lackeys with the specific purpose of easing the minds of the western people, but doesn't -that- strike you as a little... conspiracy theoryish? And while I certainly don't approve of assassinations (I would consider myself a pacifist and am against violence), everyone seems to agree there was widespread corruption. Maybe Russia needed an asshole authoritarian to come in and resolve this to some extent. From what I've gathered, I certainly can't view Putin being of the same make as the North Korean leaders. I also don't think he is a warmonger, and seems to genuinely just want what is best for Russia, and with widespread corruption to combat, he needs that strong hand to get stuff done. It's like the Frenchman in this thread said. Cut off some heads... as sad as the very idea of that makes me, it seems to have improved the situation in Russia (something people here also seem to agree on). Edit 2: I would also like to add that I know Putin is a politician, and by default I do not trust politicians and think they are corrupt in their own way. They all have, I believe, essentially the goal (more or less) of applying their own belief system on others. That is generally why they get into politics, or am I wrong about that? Again, it may sound a little extreme, as I am not a lettered nor educated man and communicating subtlety can be difficult for me. I just don't think that more weaponry is needed, and that is what I feel like the expansion of NATO has been all about in the past few decades. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6263 Posts
Russia is free to become a real democracy and align itself with the west. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22088 Posts
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On August 25 2016 18:25 RvB wrote: You do realise that NATO countries request to join and that they want to join because RUssia has oppressed and bullied those countries for decades. Russia literally invaded Ukraine and supports the rebels in Eastern Ukraine. You can't blame other eastern european countries for wanting a missile system against that. Russia is free to become a real democracy and align itself with the west. Free to align with the west... free to conform to our way of doing things or be condemned and live with missiles pointed at you. And quite frankly, I already don't see much difference between Russia and America. America constantly fuelling rebellions in other countries, etc. But that train of thought seems to hold no value here. I swear, if there's a race of aliens that ate their own babies as a means of evolution, you'd be first in line to invade their homeworld simply on the premise that they eat their own babies and you can't accept their way of doing things (for the love of peace, don't take this comment seriously, please). On August 25 2016 19:22 Gorsameth wrote: a_flayer, since you seem to think that Russia is a big cuddly bear if only we didn't antagonize them. I would suggest you look into the provocation of Russian air forces in Northern Europe. Their actions and their frequency. You mean the increased activity (without dropping bombs or anything of the sort) after the inclusion of several of the baltic states into NATO as reported on by the BBC here? And so the action-reaction game continues on. Provocation seems like a big word for it. Anyway, I'm done here. I feel I'm being forced into a more aggressive stance every time I post and people are becoming increasingly unfriendly... Wait, this sounds familiar... But never mind, I'm not going convince anyone of anything, nor am I sure if that was even my intent when I started posting here. I think I was trying to determine a good purpose for the EU, that purpose perhaps being more independence from America. For example, I personally dislike how a lot of people on the outside (Koreans for example have commented on this) see "the West" as just America and don't really separate between EU and America, when I'd say Europe is very different, more social, less warmongery... I'm going off again. I'm stopping. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
they need to be globalized not to globalize us because yea - democracy, freedom, -isms, rainbows, unicorns ... still, in the best case scenario, you'll still rely on hopes and dreams and expect some standards of morals and ethics to be met by the russians. i don't know man, having a good heart does not make for a good deterrent strategy. | ||
Nixer
2774 Posts
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
but Russia really is a threat to some nations, and it's very understandable they want to be protected from it. | ||
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stilt
France2754 Posts
On August 25 2016 18:25 RvB wrote: You do realise that NATO countries request to join and that they want to join because RUssia has oppressed and bullied those countries for decades. Russia literally invaded Ukraine and supports the rebels in Eastern Ukraine. You can't blame other eastern european countries for wanting a missile system against that. Russia is free to become a real democracy and align itself with the west. USA has bullied an infinite amount of countries, instaured dictatorship, chaos, embargos and still, there are the good guys who protect the Ukranians from the evil russian bear. How great this is, creating tension and attacking governement like in Ukraine or Syria and then presenting himself as the good guys who preserve democracy. Let me think, this imperialism of human rights remind me Something... Oh yeah, Iraq! Anyway, all the liberals who are all for the peace in this forum seem really determined to start a cold war against the evil russian and the vile chinese. China, the next big threat of all humanity is a paradigm who slowly appears in the occidental media. | ||
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Makro
France16890 Posts
the US of A did everything so europe is heavily tied with them, and being that dependant is far from being a good thing (independently from the country you are tied with btw), i agree that europe should open more with russia and some other power, because it would diversify our interest. plus, in the case of russia, if they become more tied with europe, it means more leverage from an european perspective to impose our point of view, and that's a long term strategy, but for that europe need to be a respected power and that's clearly not the case | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4742 Posts
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