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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On August 24 2016 04:14 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2016 03:29 TheDwf wrote:On August 24 2016 03:25 LegalLord wrote:On August 23 2016 04:54 TheDwf wrote:On August 23 2016 04:02 LegalLord wrote:
I remember some time ago Sarkozy was being investigated for election fraud after losing to Hollande. What came of that? He is charged. Twice, actually. (The second mise en examen is for another case.) Failing your mandate, announcing that you definitely retire from political life if you lose, cheating, losing, yet coming back despite being charged twice: isn't it glorious? We abolished monarchy, but clearly some people still think they are de droit divin... Still in process? Convicted? Acquitted? Still in process yes (that's also why he wants immunity for 5 years...). Amazing that he can be running for the presidency and have a substantial base of support under those circumstances.
His hardcore support base probably thinks he's “persecuted by justice”. Most of the rest of the population can't stand his sight. He's just banking on collective amnesia. I don't even remember any self-critique from him about his mandate...
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On August 24 2016 05:10 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2016 04:14 LegalLord wrote:On August 24 2016 03:29 TheDwf wrote:On August 24 2016 03:25 LegalLord wrote:On August 23 2016 04:54 TheDwf wrote:On August 23 2016 04:02 LegalLord wrote:
I remember some time ago Sarkozy was being investigated for election fraud after losing to Hollande. What came of that? He is charged. Twice, actually. (The second mise en examen is for another case.) Failing your mandate, announcing that you definitely retire from political life if you lose, cheating, losing, yet coming back despite being charged twice: isn't it glorious? We abolished monarchy, but clearly some people still think they are de droit divin... Still in process? Convicted? Acquitted? Still in process yes (that's also why he wants immunity for 5 years...). Amazing that he can be running for the presidency and have a substantial base of support under those circumstances. His hardcore support base probably thinks he's “persecuted by justice”. Most of the rest of the population can't stand his sight. He's just banking on collective amnesia. I don't even remember any self-critique from him about his mandate...
What's important to remember is that he spent his whole mandate discrediting the judicial system, acting as if judges were some kind of tyrants responsible for every single problem in France... He always thought himself above the laws
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On August 24 2016 05:19 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2016 05:10 TheDwf wrote:On August 24 2016 04:14 LegalLord wrote:On August 24 2016 03:29 TheDwf wrote:On August 24 2016 03:25 LegalLord wrote:On August 23 2016 04:54 TheDwf wrote:On August 23 2016 04:02 LegalLord wrote:
I remember some time ago Sarkozy was being investigated for election fraud after losing to Hollande. What came of that? He is charged. Twice, actually. (The second mise en examen is for another case.) Failing your mandate, announcing that you definitely retire from political life if you lose, cheating, losing, yet coming back despite being charged twice: isn't it glorious? We abolished monarchy, but clearly some people still think they are de droit divin... Still in process? Convicted? Acquitted? Still in process yes (that's also why he wants immunity for 5 years...). Amazing that he can be running for the presidency and have a substantial base of support under those circumstances. His hardcore support base probably thinks he's “persecuted by justice”. Most of the rest of the population can't stand his sight. He's just banking on collective amnesia. I don't even remember any self-critique from him about his mandate... What's important to remember is that he spent his whole mandate discrediting the judicial system, acting as if judges were some kind of tyrants responsible for every single problem in France... He always thought himself above the laws
Right wing politician talking shit about the judicial system sounds familiar, they do it in America and my country too. I wonder if it's just the standard right wing tactic of playing the victim or perhaps there is something real that makes the judiciary in Western countries left leaning and therefore not objective in their judgements (at least in the eyes of right wingers).
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BFM TV ordered some poll about Sarkozy. Results say that 79% of the population doesn't want to see him elected in 2017. 22% consider that he's honest or quite honest.
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In other news, behold the French muttawa in action: link
A savoury extract:
Then Ms Cusin said the officers went for Siam, [who] was wearing 'a simple hijab [a headscarf that does not cover the face] around her hair'.
People then started shouting insults at Siam, telling her she was not welcome in France, and that she should 'go home'.
Ms Cusin said: 'It was pretty violent. I had the impression of a pack going after a woman sitting on the ground, crying with her daughter.'
(One article from L'Obs reports that someone also shouted “Here we're catholic!”)
Of course no racism or islamophobia there, just a sane defence of the Republic against islamism...
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On August 24 2016 05:03 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2016 04:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Well a lot of growth was pushed by rapidly rising debt and wages that increased a lot faster than productivity. Sure the Euro enabled it in the first place but it's not like it would've been sustainable or as if Greece could've reached the same standard of living without the currency and without making any policy changes.
The flaw in design was to start out with the currency and just hope that all countries will converge towards same standards in governance and productivity, but Greece isn't going to be better off if they drop out. Even Syriza acknowledges it.
And sure austerity makes it probably worse but there is no political capital left in the rest of Europe to just change policy purely based on belief again. Not only in Germany but especially in Eastern Europe who are pretty staunchly opposed to "free-rider" policies. You say one thing then contredict it the next sentence. 1) Greece would never reached same standard of living without the euro : absurb assertion. In fact Greece would have reached the same situation ; 2) Yes ! The flaw in design is indeed the euro, because it do not help convergence it actually increase divergence, as was forecast by many economist years before the euro (by people such as Krugman and the geographic economics in 1993), and as is now proved by every measure we have ; 3) "Greece isn't going to be better off if they drop out" : we don't know but what we know for sure is that Greece can't get out without dropping from the euro or without a huge fiscal transfer from the north to Greece. Aside from that, everything is rubbish. Your assertion is similar to a "remain" arguing that London cannot grow out of europe - we now know the brexit didn't have any major negative effect. The euro will be similar.
So you are for Frexit. Le Pen offers it. Free France from German tyranny.
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Not really political but it may have some political ramifications.
It's night time so the news will be really slow on this for now. There's still some updates but the major networks just have one story and will have to wait to see the damage done.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0x1lahV.png)
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On August 24 2016 13:54 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2016 05:03 WhiteDog wrote:On August 24 2016 04:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Well a lot of growth was pushed by rapidly rising debt and wages that increased a lot faster than productivity. Sure the Euro enabled it in the first place but it's not like it would've been sustainable or as if Greece could've reached the same standard of living without the currency and without making any policy changes.
The flaw in design was to start out with the currency and just hope that all countries will converge towards same standards in governance and productivity, but Greece isn't going to be better off if they drop out. Even Syriza acknowledges it.
And sure austerity makes it probably worse but there is no political capital left in the rest of Europe to just change policy purely based on belief again. Not only in Germany but especially in Eastern Europe who are pretty staunchly opposed to "free-rider" policies. You say one thing then contredict it the next sentence. 1) Greece would never reached same standard of living without the euro : absurb assertion. In fact Greece would have reached the same situation ; 2) Yes ! The flaw in design is indeed the euro, because it do not help convergence it actually increase divergence, as was forecast by many economist years before the euro (by people such as Krugman and the geographic economics in 1993), and as is now proved by every measure we have ; 3) "Greece isn't going to be better off if they drop out" : we don't know but what we know for sure is that Greece can't get out without dropping from the euro or without a huge fiscal transfer from the north to Greece. Aside from that, everything is rubbish. Your assertion is similar to a "remain" arguing that London cannot grow out of europe - we now know the brexit didn't have any major negative effect. The euro will be similar. So you are for Frexit. Le Pen offers it. Free France from German tyranny.
Lol, Le Pen offers Frexit in the same way Hollande offered to fight finance as his "true enemy". She wouldn't apply such an unpopular point of her program ; at most she'd just call for a referendum and the Leave would lose.
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On August 24 2016 15:32 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2016 13:54 IgnE wrote:On August 24 2016 05:03 WhiteDog wrote:On August 24 2016 04:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Well a lot of growth was pushed by rapidly rising debt and wages that increased a lot faster than productivity. Sure the Euro enabled it in the first place but it's not like it would've been sustainable or as if Greece could've reached the same standard of living without the currency and without making any policy changes.
The flaw in design was to start out with the currency and just hope that all countries will converge towards same standards in governance and productivity, but Greece isn't going to be better off if they drop out. Even Syriza acknowledges it.
And sure austerity makes it probably worse but there is no political capital left in the rest of Europe to just change policy purely based on belief again. Not only in Germany but especially in Eastern Europe who are pretty staunchly opposed to "free-rider" policies. You say one thing then contredict it the next sentence. 1) Greece would never reached same standard of living without the euro : absurb assertion. In fact Greece would have reached the same situation ; 2) Yes ! The flaw in design is indeed the euro, because it do not help convergence it actually increase divergence, as was forecast by many economist years before the euro (by people such as Krugman and the geographic economics in 1993), and as is now proved by every measure we have ; 3) "Greece isn't going to be better off if they drop out" : we don't know but what we know for sure is that Greece can't get out without dropping from the euro or without a huge fiscal transfer from the north to Greece. Aside from that, everything is rubbish. Your assertion is similar to a "remain" arguing that London cannot grow out of europe - we now know the brexit didn't have any major negative effect. The euro will be similar. So you are for Frexit. Le Pen offers it. Free France from German tyranny. at most she'd just call for a referendum and the Leave would lose.
This sounds very familiar...
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On August 24 2016 16:46 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2016 15:32 OtherWorld wrote:On August 24 2016 13:54 IgnE wrote:On August 24 2016 05:03 WhiteDog wrote:On August 24 2016 04:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Well a lot of growth was pushed by rapidly rising debt and wages that increased a lot faster than productivity. Sure the Euro enabled it in the first place but it's not like it would've been sustainable or as if Greece could've reached the same standard of living without the currency and without making any policy changes.
The flaw in design was to start out with the currency and just hope that all countries will converge towards same standards in governance and productivity, but Greece isn't going to be better off if they drop out. Even Syriza acknowledges it.
And sure austerity makes it probably worse but there is no political capital left in the rest of Europe to just change policy purely based on belief again. Not only in Germany but especially in Eastern Europe who are pretty staunchly opposed to "free-rider" policies. You say one thing then contredict it the next sentence. 1) Greece would never reached same standard of living without the euro : absurb assertion. In fact Greece would have reached the same situation ; 2) Yes ! The flaw in design is indeed the euro, because it do not help convergence it actually increase divergence, as was forecast by many economist years before the euro (by people such as Krugman and the geographic economics in 1993), and as is now proved by every measure we have ; 3) "Greece isn't going to be better off if they drop out" : we don't know but what we know for sure is that Greece can't get out without dropping from the euro or without a huge fiscal transfer from the north to Greece. Aside from that, everything is rubbish. Your assertion is similar to a "remain" arguing that London cannot grow out of europe - we now know the brexit didn't have any major negative effect. The euro will be similar. So you are for Frexit. Le Pen offers it. Free France from German tyranny. at most she'd just call for a referendum and the Leave would lose. This sounds very familiar...
Eh d; no, but I mean, although the EU isn't very popular in France, it's still reasonably popular because it's strongly linked to our history. Unlike the UK, which was never really European, France has been at the core of the European project from the beginning, and I think people are aware of that. To give you an idea, the FN, in its never-ending search for efficient populist propositions, dropped what was at the beginning one of their core points : dropping the euro. They realized that while it's all good to blame the communist/ultra-liberal/dictatorial/technocrat/undemocratic/whatever EU for all of France's problems, French people are, culturally, too afraid and inertia-loving to consider taking a decision with that many unknown consequences. Thus why I think it would be a good 55+% in favor of Remain.
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On August 24 2016 13:54 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2016 05:03 WhiteDog wrote:On August 24 2016 04:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Well a lot of growth was pushed by rapidly rising debt and wages that increased a lot faster than productivity. Sure the Euro enabled it in the first place but it's not like it would've been sustainable or as if Greece could've reached the same standard of living without the currency and without making any policy changes.
The flaw in design was to start out with the currency and just hope that all countries will converge towards same standards in governance and productivity, but Greece isn't going to be better off if they drop out. Even Syriza acknowledges it.
And sure austerity makes it probably worse but there is no political capital left in the rest of Europe to just change policy purely based on belief again. Not only in Germany but especially in Eastern Europe who are pretty staunchly opposed to "free-rider" policies. You say one thing then contredict it the next sentence. 1) Greece would never reached same standard of living without the euro : absurb assertion. In fact Greece would have reached the same situation ; 2) Yes ! The flaw in design is indeed the euro, because it do not help convergence it actually increase divergence, as was forecast by many economist years before the euro (by people such as Krugman and the geographic economics in 1993), and as is now proved by every measure we have ; 3) "Greece isn't going to be better off if they drop out" : we don't know but what we know for sure is that Greece can't get out without dropping from the euro or without a huge fiscal transfer from the north to Greece. Aside from that, everything is rubbish. Your assertion is similar to a "remain" arguing that London cannot grow out of europe - we now know the brexit didn't have any major negative effect. The euro will be similar. So you are for Frexit. Le Pen offers it. Free France from German tyranny.
I'm against fixed exchange rates, it's not a political stance, it's just facts. The gold standard was a disaster, and the euro is the same.
There are plenty of people on the left that propose something else than just getting out of europe as a whole. Lordon propose to get out of the euro and go back to the ECU.
Also I hear some sarcasm in your post. Germany dominating europe is not a conspiracy, it's fact ; in fact the european central bank is located in Frankfurt. You want the south of europe to die for the euro like Macron ? And what do you think the european union is at the moment ? Peace, love and unity in europe ?
On August 24 2016 17:03 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2016 16:46 Laurens wrote:On August 24 2016 15:32 OtherWorld wrote:On August 24 2016 13:54 IgnE wrote:On August 24 2016 05:03 WhiteDog wrote:On August 24 2016 04:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Well a lot of growth was pushed by rapidly rising debt and wages that increased a lot faster than productivity. Sure the Euro enabled it in the first place but it's not like it would've been sustainable or as if Greece could've reached the same standard of living without the currency and without making any policy changes.
The flaw in design was to start out with the currency and just hope that all countries will converge towards same standards in governance and productivity, but Greece isn't going to be better off if they drop out. Even Syriza acknowledges it.
And sure austerity makes it probably worse but there is no political capital left in the rest of Europe to just change policy purely based on belief again. Not only in Germany but especially in Eastern Europe who are pretty staunchly opposed to "free-rider" policies. You say one thing then contredict it the next sentence. 1) Greece would never reached same standard of living without the euro : absurb assertion. In fact Greece would have reached the same situation ; 2) Yes ! The flaw in design is indeed the euro, because it do not help convergence it actually increase divergence, as was forecast by many economist years before the euro (by people such as Krugman and the geographic economics in 1993), and as is now proved by every measure we have ; 3) "Greece isn't going to be better off if they drop out" : we don't know but what we know for sure is that Greece can't get out without dropping from the euro or without a huge fiscal transfer from the north to Greece. Aside from that, everything is rubbish. Your assertion is similar to a "remain" arguing that London cannot grow out of europe - we now know the brexit didn't have any major negative effect. The euro will be similar. So you are for Frexit. Le Pen offers it. Free France from German tyranny. at most she'd just call for a referendum and the Leave would lose. This sounds very familiar... Eh d; no, but I mean, although the EU isn't very popular in France, it's still reasonably popular because it's strongly linked to our history. Unlike the UK, which was never really European, France has been at the core of the European project from the beginning, and I think people are aware of that. To give you an idea, the FN, in its never-ending search for efficient populist propositions, dropped what was at the beginning one of their core points : dropping the euro. They realized that while it's all good to blame the communist/ultra-liberal/dictatorial/technocrat/undemocratic/whatever EU for all of France's problems, French people are, culturally, too afraid and inertia-loving to consider taking a decision with that many unknown consequences. Thus why I think it would be a good 55+% in favor of Remain.
I'm pretty sure the majority would vote leave. It's the 2005 referendum again. In the situation we are in, a referendum would be a wrong idea ; what we need is not to destroy europe as a whole but reform it.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
I'd be all for reforming Europe, but at present the problem seems to be that Europe doesn't want to change or even acknowledge that its problems are real and in many ways getting worse. If that goes on it might just be best to avoid going down with the sinking ship.
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On August 24 2016 19:44 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2016 13:54 IgnE wrote:On August 24 2016 05:03 WhiteDog wrote:On August 24 2016 04:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Well a lot of growth was pushed by rapidly rising debt and wages that increased a lot faster than productivity. Sure the Euro enabled it in the first place but it's not like it would've been sustainable or as if Greece could've reached the same standard of living without the currency and without making any policy changes.
The flaw in design was to start out with the currency and just hope that all countries will converge towards same standards in governance and productivity, but Greece isn't going to be better off if they drop out. Even Syriza acknowledges it.
And sure austerity makes it probably worse but there is no political capital left in the rest of Europe to just change policy purely based on belief again. Not only in Germany but especially in Eastern Europe who are pretty staunchly opposed to "free-rider" policies. You say one thing then contredict it the next sentence. 1) Greece would never reached same standard of living without the euro : absurb assertion. In fact Greece would have reached the same situation ; 2) Yes ! The flaw in design is indeed the euro, because it do not help convergence it actually increase divergence, as was forecast by many economist years before the euro (by people such as Krugman and the geographic economics in 1993), and as is now proved by every measure we have ; 3) "Greece isn't going to be better off if they drop out" : we don't know but what we know for sure is that Greece can't get out without dropping from the euro or without a huge fiscal transfer from the north to Greece. Aside from that, everything is rubbish. Your assertion is similar to a "remain" arguing that London cannot grow out of europe - we now know the brexit didn't have any major negative effect. The euro will be similar. So you are for Frexit. Le Pen offers it. Free France from German tyranny. I'm against fixed exchange rates, it's not a political stance, it's just facts. The gold standard was a disaster, and the euro is the same. There are plenty of people on the left that propose something else than just getting out of europe as a whole. Lordon propose to get out of the euro and go back to the ECU. Also I hear some sarcasm in your post. Germany dominating europe is not a conspiracy, it's fact ; in fact the european central bank is located in Frankfurt. You want the south of europe to die for the euro like Macron ? And what do you think the european union is at the moment ? Pece and love in europe ?
I agree with your understanding: there are more and bigger problems with the euro than with the EU. But doesn't french popular opinion think the other way around?
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On August 24 2016 20:22 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2016 19:44 WhiteDog wrote:On August 24 2016 13:54 IgnE wrote:On August 24 2016 05:03 WhiteDog wrote:On August 24 2016 04:46 Nyxisto wrote:
Well a lot of growth was pushed by rapidly rising debt and wages that increased a lot faster than productivity. Sure the Euro enabled it in the first place but it's not like it would've been sustainable or as if Greece could've reached the same standard of living without the currency and without making any policy changes.
The flaw in design was to start out with the currency and just hope that all countries will converge towards same standards in governance and productivity, but Greece isn't going to be better off if they drop out. Even Syriza acknowledges it.
And sure austerity makes it probably worse but there is no political capital left in the rest of Europe to just change policy purely based on belief again. Not only in Germany but especially in Eastern Europe who are pretty staunchly opposed to "free-rider" policies. You say one thing then contredict it the next sentence. 1) Greece would never reached same standard of living without the euro : absurb assertion. In fact Greece would have reached the same situation ; 2) Yes ! The flaw in design is indeed the euro, because it do not help convergence it actually increase divergence, as was forecast by many economist years before the euro (by people such as Krugman and the geographic economics in 1993), and as is now proved by every measure we have ; 3) "Greece isn't going to be better off if they drop out" : we don't know but what we know for sure is that Greece can't get out without dropping from the euro or without a huge fiscal transfer from the north to Greece. Aside from that, everything is rubbish. Your assertion is similar to a "remain" arguing that London cannot grow out of europe - we now know the brexit didn't have any major negative effect. The euro will be similar. So you are for Frexit. Le Pen offers it. Free France from German tyranny. I'm against fixed exchange rates, it's not a political stance, it's just facts. The gold standard was a disaster, and the euro is the same. There are plenty of people on the left that propose something else than just getting out of europe as a whole. Lordon propose to get out of the euro and go back to the ECU. Also I hear some sarcasm in your post. Germany dominating europe is not a conspiracy, it's fact ; in fact the european central bank is located in Frankfurt. You want the south of europe to die for the euro like Macron ? And what do you think the european union is at the moment ? Pece and love in europe ? I agree with your understanding: there are more and bigger problems with the euro than with the EU. But doesn't french popular opinion think the other way around?
Yes you are right. French popular opinion knows "something" is wrong with the european union, but they're mostly against leaving the euro - because they fear it will somehow lead to the biggest economic crisis that mankind ever created (might be true). And, you can't ask common citizen to actually know about the debate around currency and all.
In fact the Front National talked about changing its stance in regards to the euro as it was seen as one of the main reason why they were not winning more than they already do.
On August 24 2016 20:05 LegalLord wrote:
I'd be all for reforming Europe, but at present the problem seems to be that Europe doesn't want to change or even acknowledge that its problems are real and in many ways getting worse. If that goes on it might just be best to avoid going down with the sinking ship.
Reform it the french way it's easy ... cut some head, and then voilà.
I propose Jean-Claude Juncker.
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I think there are significant problems with the European Union, but we need to stick together and fight the political power the Americans (and their corporations) continue to hold over the world. I don't understand why we place sanctions on Russia for Crimea (where the people actually voted to join) but we let America invade country after country without repercussion. I don't like that NATO invaded the Ukraine against the agreements that had been made with Russia in the 80s, and I've been led to believe that the Americans had some involvement in getting the Ukraine to denounce Russia in order to get those troops on the ground there. This is very concerning to me. It is no wonder to me that Crimea wanted to join Russia. I think it is about time we treat America and Russia according to the same standard.
Either way, I'm done with being Americas puppet and I think we, as Europe, need to recognize the fact that they cannot make these kinds of decisions on their own, and the only way to do that is through some kind of unity on our continent. The problems of a specific country (Greece) are really not that important on the larger scale, in my opinion. We simply need to help them the best way we can, be it through education in the way of how to run a country or money, or whatever it takes to keep this continent unified in -some- sense at least.
I could try to add some sources to my point of view if people really don't see the same things that I am seeing, but I can't be arsed to look them up right now.
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On August 24 2016 20:41 a_flayer wrote:
I think there are significant problems with the European Union, but we need to stick together and fight the political power the Americans (and their corporations) continue to hold over the world. I don't understand why we place sanctions on Russia for Crimea (where the people actually voted to join) but we let America invade country after country without repercussion. I don't like that NATO invaded the Ukraine against the agreements that had been made with Russia in the 80s, and I've been led to believe that the Americans had some involvement in getting the Ukraine to denounce Russia in order to get those troops on the ground there. This is very concerning to me. It is no wonder to me that Crimea wanted to join Russia. I think it is about time we treat America and Russia according to the same standard.
Either way, I'm done with being Americas puppet and I think we, as Europe, need to recognize the fact that they cannot make these kinds of decisions on their own, and the only way to do that is through some kind of unity on our continent. The problems of a specific country (Greece) are really not that important on the larger scale, in my opinion. We simply need to help them the best way we can, be it through education in the way of how to run a country or money, or whatever it takes to keep this continent unified in -some- sense at least.
I could try to add some sources to my point of view if people really don't see the same things that I am seeing, but I can't be arsed to look them up right now.
In what reality did NATO invade the Ukraine?
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On August 24 2016 21:13 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2016 20:41 a_flayer wrote:
I think there are significant problems with the European Union, but we need to stick together and fight the political power the Americans (and their corporations) continue to hold over the world. I don't understand why we place sanctions on Russia for Crimea (where the people actually voted to join) but we let America invade country after country without repercussion. I don't like that NATO invaded the Ukraine against the agreements that had been made with Russia in the 80s, and I've been led to believe that the Americans had some involvement in getting the Ukraine to denounce Russia in order to get those troops on the ground there. This is very concerning to me. It is no wonder to me that Crimea wanted to join Russia. I think it is about time we treat America and Russia according to the same standard.
Either way, I'm done with being Americas puppet and I think we, as Europe, need to recognize the fact that they cannot make these kinds of decisions on their own, and the only way to do that is through some kind of unity on our continent. The problems of a specific country (Greece) are really not that important on the larger scale, in my opinion. We simply need to help them the best way we can, be it through education in the way of how to run a country or money, or whatever it takes to keep this continent unified in -some- sense at least.
I could try to add some sources to my point of view if people really don't see the same things that I am seeing, but I can't be arsed to look them up right now. In what reality did NATO invade the Ukraine?
I'll admit that was a bit of an extreme way of putting it, but in a reality where machinations of America helped spread the unrest in Ukraine to get them to basically have to ask for help from NATO against the previous agreements that had been made. Any comments on Europe's refusal to accept the wishes of the Crimean people?
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they dismissed the referendum as being unconstitutional, undemocratic, illegal and few others.
Edit: it's like Texas having to hold a referendum to secede from US at the "request" of Mexico.
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On August 24 2016 21:21 a_flayer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2016 21:13 Gorsameth wrote:On August 24 2016 20:41 a_flayer wrote:
I think there are significant problems with the European Union, but we need to stick together and fight the political power the Americans (and their corporations) continue to hold over the world. I don't understand why we place sanctions on Russia for Crimea (where the people actually voted to join) but we let America invade country after country without repercussion. I don't like that NATO invaded the Ukraine against the agreements that had been made with Russia in the 80s, and I've been led to believe that the Americans had some involvement in getting the Ukraine to denounce Russia in order to get those troops on the ground there. This is very concerning to me. It is no wonder to me that Crimea wanted to join Russia. I think it is about time we treat America and Russia according to the same standard.
Either way, I'm done with being Americas puppet and I think we, as Europe, need to recognize the fact that they cannot make these kinds of decisions on their own, and the only way to do that is through some kind of unity on our continent. The problems of a specific country (Greece) are really not that important on the larger scale, in my opinion. We simply need to help them the best way we can, be it through education in the way of how to run a country or money, or whatever it takes to keep this continent unified in -some- sense at least.
I could try to add some sources to my point of view if people really don't see the same things that I am seeing, but I can't be arsed to look them up right now. In what reality did NATO invade the Ukraine? I'll admit that was a bit of an extreme way of putting it, but in a reality where machinations of America helped spread the unrest in Ukraine to get them to basically have to ask for help from NATO against the previous agreements that had been made. Any comments on Europe's refusal to accept the wishes of the Crimean people?
A referendum held while foreign troops have occupied your province is not a free democratic choice.
If the referendum had been held before Russia invaded the Crimean that Europe might have accepted it.
Doing it while Russian soldiers patrol the street was retarded if your trying to claim there was no duress.
As for NATO.
Russia showed exactly why Ukraine wanted to join NATO by invading their country.
They needed NATO protection.
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It's like 90% ethnic Russians living there, which alone is reason enough for me to think that they'd want to join Russia considering the vast majority of ethnic Russians in Russia actually like Russia... Crimea has requested to join Russia in the past and wanted to be part of the Soviet union just before it collapsed. As far as I know there were no shots fired and no casualties while the Russian troops were there. And correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe the NATO forces were in the Ukraine there before the Russian troops were in Crimea to keep the peace during the referendum? And if NATO didn't talk to Russia before sending troops there, or ignored the Russian objection to sending troops to Ukraine... I don't see how we have any legitimacy in refuting the referendum. We were there first to protect our "prospective EU partner" after the legitimately chosen president was bullied out of the country and when another country comes in to protect its prospective citizens from a rebellion that had already been going on suddenly its unjustified? Come on... Again. It's like 90% ethnic Russians. Duress or no duress, believe wholeheartedly that they wanted to join with Russia and we should have respected that.
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EPT
