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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On April 07 2016 07:45 LegalLord wrote:
So what were the major issues that people actually considered in voting? Was this mostly just about pro-EU vs anti-EU or do the Dutch actually care about Ukraine specifically?
I don't know. Feels like most of the Yes care about it at least in some form, how much of that is pro-Ukraine or anti-Russia is hard to say, while the No was more or less hijacked by the anti-EU crowd.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
I didn't vote because fuck this referanda, in the end not much will change. From what I see people mostly see/saw it as a vote against the EU working with (yet) another corrupt, poor country.
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On April 07 2016 08:18 Kipsate wrote:
I didn't vote because fuck this referanda, in the end not much will change. From what I see people mostly see/saw it as a vote against the EU working with (yet) another corrupt, poor country.
From an EU standpoint its about tightening relations with Ukraine to prevent them from falling back under Russian control and keeping them as a buffer zone between the EU and Russia.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Whether thats true or not doesn't matter, its what people thought and the narratives that played out. Thats what was asked.
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On April 07 2016 07:30 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2016 07:12 zeo wrote:On April 07 2016 07:01 Acrofales wrote:On April 07 2016 06:50 zeo wrote:On April 07 2016 06:47 Ghostcom wrote:
Danish media report that the turn-out might have been too low to make the vote binding. Would be interesting to see what happens then. Have you heard anything to that effect Gorsameth? Its just damage control, pro-Euro news outlets don't know how to cover the results. 'Well even if it passed it doesn't matter and even if it matters it barely passed', pathetic really. They can play it down all they want, its over 30%. On April 07 2016 06:50 Acrofales wrote:On April 07 2016 06:47 Ghostcom wrote:
Danish media report that the turn-out might have been too low to make the vote binding. Would be interesting to see what happens then. Have you heard anything to that effect Gorsameth? 1. It's a non-binding referendum in any case. 2. Turnout was 32%, which means the government is obligated to consider the outcome (over 30%). Of course, a verypossible outcome is that the government says "we considered it, but seeing as only about 20% of the population felt strongly enough against this treaty to show up and vote against it, we have decided to continue with the treaty as if nothing happened". And only 8% of the population want the deal. 12% (38% of 32%), but yes. Only12% feel strongly enough in favour of the treaty to go out and vote for it. In other words, 68% of the population does not give enough of a fuck to go out and vote (could be interpreted as: status quo is fine by me). Given that the vast majority of the population does not give a fuck, why would the government change course? In a general election you also don't give a fuck about what the 45% of the population that didn't turn out think. You look at who won the vote, and in this case 68% of the people left the decision making to the 32%. Its called democracy. Something un-elected officials sitting in Brussels don't know the meaning of. In the general election you don't have a choice. There are 150 (or however many there are in any given country) parliamentary seats to be divided. Also, the Dutch turnout for general elections in the last 20 years or so has been over 70% (and probably that way or higher since the 2nd world war), so far more representative of the Dutch population as a whole. That said, you could definitely make a case that the European parliament does not in any way, shape, or form represent the European people, with atrocious turnout rates across the EU for it.
http://www.ukpolitical.info/european-parliament-election-turnout.htm
Would say turn out rates are very different in different countries. For example UK votes have been pretty stable at a low % the entire time, Sweden and Finland are still climbing after being added. Too early to see trends for the newest countries that are generally low.
Strange that for example UK parliament has twice the turnout of EU. Should probably sync them to the same day so people vote because it is easy.
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If you have a referendum let it be binding. This one was useless. It's sham democracy.
The outcome doesn't say anything. In general elections there is already the problem that certain groups are under represented like the young. With a turnout of 30% this problem is made even worse. This referendum shoild be thrown jn the trash bin where it belongs.
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Idk I probably wouldn't turn up for an unbinding referendum either, even if I cared about the issue.
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http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/danish-police-arrest-four-alleged-is-fighters-seize-weapons/article/462240 Copenhagen police said Thursday they had detained four people on suspicion of joining the Islamic State group in Syria and seized weapons and ammunition in a search linked to the arrests.
All four were suspected of breaking Denmark's terrorism law while in Syria, and were arrested in the Copenhagen area, police said in a statement without giving any further information on their identities.
"The suspects have been identified through investigations carried out in close cooperation between the Danish Security and Intelligence Service and Copenhagen police," the statement said.
Under Danish terrorism law, "letting oneself be recruited to commit acts of (terrorism)" is punishable with up to six years in jail. funny terrorism law there
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Zurich15366 Posts
Seems pretty common? In Germany simple "membership in a terrorist organization" is a criminal offense punishable with up to 10 years in prison.
Not that this law is not uncontroversial and uncontested, but I expected most countries to have similar anti-terrorism laws.
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On April 07 2016 22:06 xM(Z wrote:http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/danish-police-arrest-four-alleged-is-fighters-seize-weapons/article/462240 Show nested quote +Copenhagen police said Thursday they had detained four people on suspicion of joining the Islamic State group in Syria and seized weapons and ammunition in a search linked to the arrests.
All four were suspected of breaking Denmark's terrorism law while in Syria, and were arrested in the Copenhagen area, police said in a statement without giving any further information on their identities.
"The suspects have been identified through investigations carried out in close cooperation between the Danish Security and Intelligence Service and Copenhagen police," the statement said.
Under Danish terrorism law, "letting oneself be recruited to commit acts of (terrorism)" is punishable with up to six years in jail. funny terrorism law there
What about it is funny?
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On April 07 2016 22:55 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2016 22:06 xM(Z wrote:http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/danish-police-arrest-four-alleged-is-fighters-seize-weapons/article/462240 Copenhagen police said Thursday they had detained four people on suspicion of joining the Islamic State group in Syria and seized weapons and ammunition in a search linked to the arrests.
All four were suspected of breaking Denmark's terrorism law while in Syria, and were arrested in the Copenhagen area, police said in a statement without giving any further information on their identities.
"The suspects have been identified through investigations carried out in close cooperation between the Danish Security and Intelligence Service and Copenhagen police," the statement said.
Under Danish terrorism law, "letting oneself be recruited to commit acts of (terrorism)" is punishable with up to six years in jail. funny terrorism law there What about it is funny?
I bolded it for you.
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On April 07 2016 23:06 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2016 22:55 Ghostcom wrote:On April 07 2016 22:06 xM(Z wrote:http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/danish-police-arrest-four-alleged-is-fighters-seize-weapons/article/462240 Copenhagen police said Thursday they had detained four people on suspicion of joining the Islamic State group in Syria and seized weapons and ammunition in a search linked to the arrests.
All four were suspected of breaking Denmark's terrorism law while in Syria, and were arrested in the Copenhagen area, police said in a statement without giving any further information on their identities.
"The suspects have been identified through investigations carried out in close cooperation between the Danish Security and Intelligence Service and Copenhagen police," the statement said.
Under Danish terrorism law, "letting oneself be recruited to commit acts of (terrorism)" is punishable with up to six years in jail. funny terrorism law there What about it is funny? I bolded it for you.
Mind expanding upon why that is funny?
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I didn't say it was funny but what xM(Z means is that its a joke to get such little time in prison? Thought it would be obvious.
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It's up to six years just for membership. If they can proove you killed people they can jail you for longer, doesn't matter where you killed those people. I don't get how it is funny either
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Little hard to read minds - as you can see zatic thought it was because of the potential controversy. I think you are underestimating how long 6 years really is, but I guess that is very subjective. A Danish maximum sentence (life) is 12 years without parole and rather similar to what Norway is doing with Breivik (reassessment at end of punishment).
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Zurich15366 Posts
On April 07 2016 23:06 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2016 22:55 Ghostcom wrote:On April 07 2016 22:06 xM(Z wrote:http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/danish-police-arrest-four-alleged-is-fighters-seize-weapons/article/462240 Copenhagen police said Thursday they had detained four people on suspicion of joining the Islamic State group in Syria and seized weapons and ammunition in a search linked to the arrests.
All four were suspected of breaking Denmark's terrorism law while in Syria, and were arrested in the Copenhagen area, police said in a statement without giving any further information on their identities.
"The suspects have been identified through investigations carried out in close cooperation between the Danish Security and Intelligence Service and Copenhagen police," the statement said.
Under Danish terrorism law, "letting oneself be recruited to commit acts of (terrorism)" is punishable with up to six years in jail. funny terrorism law there What about it is funny? I bolded it for you.
Still not sure what you guys are on about. Is that supposed to be too high? Too low? If implemented similarly to Germany, the law allows to jail someone who has commited no crime (other than the membership). Should someone who has commited no crime be punished more severely that say, child molesters (in Germany: up to 5 years/up to 10 years depending on the case) to use a otherwise popular exmaple?
To clarify: If they actually COMMIT acts of terrorism, like murder, they will of course be tried for those, with accordingly higher maximum sentences.
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On April 07 2016 23:13 Ghostcom wrote:
Little hard to read minds - as you can see zatic though it was because of the potential controversy. I think you are underestimating how long 6 years really is, but I guess that is very subjective. A Danish maximum sentence (life) is 12 years without parole and rather similar to what Norway is doing with Breivik (reassessment at end of punishment).
6 years is the maximum, hence why it says up to 6 years, if its anything like British law's he can be out within 3 years. Even if it was 6 years, its nowhere near long enough for a convicted terrorist, but that's where we will probably just have to disagree 
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On April 07 2016 23:15 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2016 23:06 Reaps wrote:On April 07 2016 22:55 Ghostcom wrote:On April 07 2016 22:06 xM(Z wrote:http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/danish-police-arrest-four-alleged-is-fighters-seize-weapons/article/462240 Copenhagen police said Thursday they had detained four people on suspicion of joining the Islamic State group in Syria and seized weapons and ammunition in a search linked to the arrests.
All four were suspected of breaking Denmark's terrorism law while in Syria, and were arrested in the Copenhagen area, police said in a statement without giving any further information on their identities.
"The suspects have been identified through investigations carried out in close cooperation between the Danish Security and Intelligence Service and Copenhagen police," the statement said.
Under Danish terrorism law, "letting oneself be recruited to commit acts of (terrorism)" is punishable with up to six years in jail. funny terrorism law there What about it is funny? I bolded it for you. Still not sure what you guys are on about. Is that supposed to be too high? Too low? If implemented similarly to Germany, the law allows to jail someone who has commited no crime. Should someone who has commited no crime be punished more severely that say, child molesters (in Germany: up to 5 years/up to 10 years depending on the case) to use a otherwise popular exmaple?
Its about preventing attacks unless you think innocent people have to die for terrorists to get a long sentence. The guy will be just as dangerous when he comes out of prison in 3-6 years.
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On April 07 2016 23:15 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2016 23:13 Ghostcom wrote:
Little hard to read minds - as you can see zatic though it was because of the potential controversy. I think you are underestimating how long 6 years really is, but I guess that is very subjective. A Danish maximum sentence (life) is 12 years without parole and rather similar to what Norway is doing with Breivik (reassessment at end of punishment). 6 years is the maximum, hence why it says up to 6 years, if its anything like British law's he can be out within 3 years. Even if it was 6 years, its nowhere near long enough for a convicted terrorist, but that's where we will probably just have to disagree
Yeah it's obviously very subjective In 3-6 years (whatever it ends up being) their network will likely be gone and all their resources will thus be exhausted even if they wanted to commit terrorism (and they are going to be fairly easy to monitor). So I doubt they are going to be all that dangerous at that time. In fact 3-6 years is probably also a fairly good amount of time to think about the choices one has made.
EDIT: Just to clarify, these people have in fact committed a crime. It's so far a victim-less one, but it still a crime.
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On April 07 2016 23:21 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2016 23:15 Reaps wrote:On April 07 2016 23:13 Ghostcom wrote:
Little hard to read minds - as you can see zatic though it was because of the potential controversy. I think you are underestimating how long 6 years really is, but I guess that is very subjective. A Danish maximum sentence (life) is 12 years without parole and rather similar to what Norway is doing with Breivik (reassessment at end of punishment). 6 years is the maximum, hence why it says up to 6 years, if its anything like British law's he can be out within 3 years. Even if it was 6 years, its nowhere near long enough for a convicted terrorist, but that's where we will probably just have to disagree Yeah it's obviously very subjective In 3-6 years (whatever it ends up being) their network will likely be gone and all their resources will thus be exhausted even if they wanted to commit terrorism (and they are going to be fairly easy to monitor). So I doubt they are going to be all that dangerous at that time. In fact 3-6 years is probably also a fairly good amount of time to think about the choices one has made. EDIT: Just to clarify, these people have in fact committed a crime. It's so far a victim-less one, but it still a crime.
I don't believe people that are ready to commit terrorist acts to kill innocent people like suicide bombing will ever have time to reform no matter how much time they spend in prison. Hopefully like you said they will be heavily monitored after they come out, but i find it hard to believe they will ever become a "normal" part of society. Sad truth is a lot of terrorists that have carried out attacks were known to the intelligence services beforehand.
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EPT
