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On April 07 2016 23:17 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2016 23:15 zatic wrote:On April 07 2016 23:06 Reaps wrote:On April 07 2016 22:55 Ghostcom wrote:On April 07 2016 22:06 xM(Z wrote:http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/danish-police-arrest-four-alleged-is-fighters-seize-weapons/article/462240 Copenhagen police said Thursday they had detained four people on suspicion of joining the Islamic State group in Syria and seized weapons and ammunition in a search linked to the arrests.
All four were suspected of breaking Denmark's terrorism law while in Syria, and were arrested in the Copenhagen area, police said in a statement without giving any further information on their identities.
"The suspects have been identified through investigations carried out in close cooperation between the Danish Security and Intelligence Service and Copenhagen police," the statement said.
Under Danish terrorism law, "letting oneself be recruited to commit acts of (terrorism)" is punishable with up to six years in jail. funny terrorism law there What about it is funny? I bolded it for you. Still not sure what you guys are on about. Is that supposed to be too high? Too low? If implemented similarly to Germany, the law allows to jail someone who has commited no crime. Should someone who has commited no crime be punished more severely that say, child molesters (in Germany: up to 5 years/up to 10 years depending on the case) to use a otherwise popular exmaple? Its about preventing attacks unless you think innocent people have to die for terrorists to get a long sentence. The guy will be just as dangerous when he comes out of prison in 3-6 years.
And then we get into Minority Report stuff where we convict people for crimes they have no yet committed.
This is a sentence not for carrying out a terrorist attack or even planning one. Just by being a member and doing absolutely nothing can you get up to 6 years.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Would you jail all ISIS affiliated people permanently if you could?
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On April 07 2016 23:30 Kipsate wrote:
Would you jail all ISIS affiliated people permanently if you could?
Might aswell put them against the wall and shoot them at that point.
Heck why not do it with everyone who is an a terrorist watch list, god knows no one innocent ever got on those.
After all, according to him their are all lost causes and unreformable anyway.
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On April 07 2016 23:30 Kipsate wrote:
Would you jail all ISIS affiliated people permanently if you could?
It depends on the individual cases, here in Britain if u say you support ISIS you're breaking the law. However that doesn't stop hate preachers here preaching their hatred, they will just dodge the question when asked about their support for ISIS and the police cant do shit about it, its pretty dumb.
As for as criminal sentences go where i am from and most of western Europe i do think we are simply to lenient when it comes to crime, not just terrorism but crime in general.
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On April 07 2016 23:34 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2016 23:30 Kipsate wrote:
Would you jail all ISIS affiliated people permanently if you could? Might aswell put them against the wall and shoot them at that point. Heck why not do it with everyone who is an a terrorist watch list, god knows no one innocent ever got on those. After all, according to him their are all lost causes and unreformable anyway.
Good job twisting my words, discussing seems pointless with you, i won't even try.
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Zurich15362 Posts
On April 07 2016 23:27 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2016 23:21 Ghostcom wrote:On April 07 2016 23:15 Reaps wrote:On April 07 2016 23:13 Ghostcom wrote:
Little hard to read minds - as you can see zatic though it was because of the potential controversy. I think you are underestimating how long 6 years really is, but I guess that is very subjective. A Danish maximum sentence (life) is 12 years without parole and rather similar to what Norway is doing with Breivik (reassessment at end of punishment). 6 years is the maximum, hence why it says up to 6 years, if its anything like British law's he can be out within 3 years. Even if it was 6 years, its nowhere near long enough for a convicted terrorist, but that's where we will probably just have to disagree  Yeah it's obviously very subjective In 3-6 years (whatever it ends up being) their network will likely be gone and all their resources will thus be exhausted even if they wanted to commit terrorism (and they are going to be fairly easy to monitor). So I doubt they are going to be all that dangerous at that time. In fact 3-6 years is probably also a fairly good amount of time to think about the choices one has made. EDIT: Just to clarify, these people have in fact committed a crime. It's so far a victim-less one, but it still a crime. I don't believe people that are ready to commit terrorist acts to kill innocent people like suicide bombing will ever have time to reform no matter how much time they spend in prison. Hopefully like you said they will be heavily monitored after they come out, but i find it hard to believe they will ever become a "normal" part of society. Sad truth is a lot of terrorists that have carried out attacks are known to the intelligence services beforehand.
Maybe, but until we can read minds Minority Report style I really don't see a better way than monitoring.
But the way plenty of returnees from Germany have turned their back on ISIS. The last one sentenced in Germany got (a reduced sentence of) 3 years, partly because he could convincingly distance himself from ISIS and his past actions.
Just today a report based on recruitment documents stolen from ISIS was published here. Based on those document recruits really range from hardcore zealots to dumb fucks who don't know anything about anything and return when they realize Syria isn't all glory, fast cars, and pretty wifes.
Edit: Related: It's a bit outdated by now, but this is a fascinating report on ISIS defectors http://icsr.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/ICSR-Report-Victims-Perpertrators-Assets-The-Narratives-of-Islamic-State-Defectors.pdf
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On April 07 2016 23:36 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2016 23:34 Gorsameth wrote:On April 07 2016 23:30 Kipsate wrote:
Would you jail all ISIS affiliated people permanently if you could? Might aswell put them against the wall and shoot them at that point. Heck why not do it with everyone who is an a terrorist watch list, god knows no one innocent ever got on those. After all, according to him their are all lost causes and unreformable anyway. Good job twisting my words, discussing seems pointless with you, i won't even try.
I didn't have to twist a whole lot to get there.
You say a terrorist cannot be reformed. This leads naturally into locking them up for life, at which point you might aswell kill them.
You say plenty of terrorist attacks have been committed by people known to intelligence (which is indeed correct) so you might aswell round up all the suspects because your claiming monitoring is not good enough. which leads back to point 1.
You say we are to lenient on crimes, and I agree that on many cases we are but those are situations where crimes have been committed and real proof exists.
This "membership of a terrorist organization" is a lot more vague and a lot harder to prove. I don't think someone should be locked up for decades for mere association.
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you people ...up to six years (and at first offense ovb.) = probation, you do no jail time.
basically you're free to bomb things as if nothing happened.
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On April 08 2016 00:05 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2016 23:36 Reaps wrote:On April 07 2016 23:34 Gorsameth wrote:On April 07 2016 23:30 Kipsate wrote:
Would you jail all ISIS affiliated people permanently if you could? Might aswell put them against the wall and shoot them at that point. Heck why not do it with everyone who is an a terrorist watch list, god knows no one innocent ever got on those. After all, according to him their are all lost causes and unreformable anyway. Good job twisting my words, discussing seems pointless with you, i won't even try. I didn't have to twist a whole lot to get there. You say a terrorist cannot be reformed. This leads naturally into locking them up for life, at which point you might aswell kill them. You say plenty of terrorist attacks have been committed by people known to intelligence (which is indeed correct) so you might aswell round up all the suspects because your claiming monitoring is not good enough. which leads back to point 1. You say we are to lenient on crimes, and I agree that on many cases we are but those are situations where crimes have been committed and real proof exists. This "membership of a terrorist organization" is a lot more vague and a lot harder to prove. I don't think someone should be locked up for decades for mere association.
So with your logic you should kill any criminal doing life sentences?
I did not say that monitoring is not good enough so try harder.
I also said that the terrorists that can't be reformed are the ones WILLING to carry out suicide attacks on innocent people, not just people that are a "member of terrorist organization" as you put it.
Damn liberals are everywhere
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Netherlands45349 Posts
I also said that the terrorists that can't be reformed are the ones WILLING to carry out suicide attacks on innocent people, not just people that are a "member of terrorist organization" as you put it.
The problem is that you can't read people's minds, intentions and whether they would actually carry those out.
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On April 08 2016 00:12 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 00:05 Gorsameth wrote:On April 07 2016 23:36 Reaps wrote:On April 07 2016 23:34 Gorsameth wrote:On April 07 2016 23:30 Kipsate wrote:
Would you jail all ISIS affiliated people permanently if you could? Might aswell put them against the wall and shoot them at that point. Heck why not do it with everyone who is an a terrorist watch list, god knows no one innocent ever got on those. After all, according to him their are all lost causes and unreformable anyway. Good job twisting my words, discussing seems pointless with you, i won't even try. I didn't have to twist a whole lot to get there. You say a terrorist cannot be reformed. This leads naturally into locking them up for life, at which point you might aswell kill them. You say plenty of terrorist attacks have been committed by people known to intelligence (which is indeed correct) so you might aswell round up all the suspects because your claiming monitoring is not good enough. which leads back to point 1. You say we are to lenient on crimes, and I agree that on many cases we are but those are situations where crimes have been committed and real proof exists. This "membership of a terrorist organization" is a lot more vague and a lot harder to prove. I don't think someone should be locked up for decades for mere association. So with your logic you should kill any criminal doing life sentences? I did not say that monitoring is not good enough so try harder. I also said that the terrorists that can't be reformed are the ones WILLING to carry out suicide attacks on innocent people, not just people that are a "member of terrorist organization" as you put it. Damn liberals are everywhere
I'd rather not give life sentences and work to rehabilitate more.
Terrorists have been known to intelligence agencies at the time of their attacks, either it is good enough and we stop them in time or it's not good enough and they get to make attacks.
Its rather hard to separate those who are willing to kill innocents and those who are not before the get ready to commit their attack.
Preparing a terrorist attack is also a separate crime from being part of a terrorist organization (at least it is here in the Netherlands) and holds a higher punishment as it demonstrates a willingness to act.
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On April 08 2016 00:08 xM(Z wrote:
you people ...up to six years (and at first offense ovb.) = probation, you do no jail time.
basically you're free to bomb things as if nothing happened.
That's really not how the Danish system works. And neither of the 4 is likely to be a first time offender as they are also all linked to one of the known gangs.
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that has nothing to do with what the article was referring to, but to quote - " letting oneself be recruited to commit acts of (terrorism)". i mean, he can't get recruited by ISIS for a second time, right?.
what you mention there is related but entirely something else (legally at least); unless you go full american and try to act preemptively or something.
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On April 08 2016 06:47 xM(Z wrote:
that has nothing to do with what the article was referring to, but to quote - " letting oneself be recruited to commit acts of (terrorism)". i mean, he can't get recruited by ISIS for a second time, right?.
what you mention there is related but entirely something else (legally at least); unless you go full american and try to act preemptively or something.
Why not? I have become a member, and consequently dropped my membership, just to become a member again later in various organizations. But that aside, I am going to assume that if you are prosecuted for this, and then later it turns out you're still a member you can simply be prosecuted again. Just as if you're driving without a license, prosecuted, but then afterwards continue driving without a license.
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you're skipping over the part in which one is supposed to actually commit terrorist acts(or you need to prove intent) else you're preemptively putting people in jail.
being recruited by IS then going to Syria and Iraq to fight and kill for them is an act of terrorism but there's no law against just being an IS member(whatever that means) as far as i know.
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Zurich15362 Posts
On April 08 2016 14:50 xM(Z wrote:
you're skipping over the part in which one is supposed to actually commit terrorist acts(or you need to prove intent) else you're preemptively putting people in jail.
being recruited by IS then going to Syria and Iraq to fight and kill for them is an act of terrorism but there's no law against just being an IS member(whatever that means) as far as i know.
Yes there is, we have just been talking about it over the past 2 pages. The Danish law, and the related German one I mentioned, apply to people who have otherwise (other than being member of a terrorist organization) committed no crime.
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It is a logical law as well since any organisation needs a support portion. They need somebody to check out locations, gather information, arrange funds and living spaces without the big targets showing themselves.
Getting actually judged guilty would be hard in many cases since the organisation that helps the terrorist organisation isn't named the same for obvious reasons.
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that's not technically true. in this context, membership has a legal definition based on acts and needs to be proven first based on said definition:
(excerpts from romanian law on terrorism; EU/intl based law)
Art. 33. – (1) The following acts are assimilated to the terrorist acts:
a) Acquisition, possession, manufacture, fabrication and provision or production of destructive means, toxic substances, materials, microorganisms or other harmful substances or means that could endanger the people’s and animals’ health or the environment, for terrorist purposes.
b) Recruitment, instruction and training of the terrorist entities concerning the use of the fire arms, ammunition, explosives, chemical, biological, bacteriological or nuclear weapons and for facilitating or perpetrating the terrorist acts.
c) Acts of supporting the entrance/exit in/from the country or supporting the access to the target area of the person known as having supported/perpetrated or planning to support/perpetrate a terrorist act.
d) Collection and possession for transfer purposes or communication of data and intelligence about the terrorist targets, without having the legal right.
e) Promotion of some ideas, conceptions or attitudes in order to support the cause and/or the activity of the terrorist entity.
f) Money laundering, fraudulent bankruptcy, corruption acts, extortion, human smuggling, illegal drugs and precursors’ trafficking, smuggling, stolen cars’ trafficking, currency or other values’ counterfeiting and any other crimes intended for obtaining an advantage in the benefit of the terrorist entity.
g) Any other acts committed for supporting, facilitating, hiding or causing the terrorist acts’ perpetration.
(2) The penalties for the acts stipulated in the paragraph (1) will be as follows:
a) 10 to 15 years in prison and the interdiction of some rights, those stipulated in sub-paragraphs a) and b);
b) 5 to 10 years in prison and the interdiction of some rights, those stipulated in sub-paragraphs c), d) and e);
c) 1 to 5 years and the interdiction of some rights, those stipulated in sub-paragraph g). for some reason, i was mostly thinking here at a passive membership; like a member of a golf club that never goes golfing.
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I am not sure about Danish law or Romanian law but from what I read about German law membership alone is indeed in itself criminal: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitgliedschaft_in_einer_terroristischen_Vereinigung
See in particular
Der § 129a StGB ermöglicht es, Personen zu verurteilen, denen abgesehen vom Verstoß gegen diesen Paragraphen keine weiteren Straftaten nachgewiesen wurden. Kritiker bemängelten deshalb sogleich die Kriminalisierung bislang als unbescholten geltender Personen.
My rough translation:
Paragraph §129a StGB makes it possible to convict persons who, besides violating said paragraph, cannot be shown to have committed other crimes. Detractors therefore criticize the criminalization of people counting as innocent until now.
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Just for clarification, all 4 have been in Syria fighting for, or at least been trained by ISIS according to the Danish media.
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EPT
