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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On April 01 2016 21:11 RvB wrote:
And it's not true. The right wing in NL isn't in favour of curbing abbortion and neither is any liberal right winger (european kind not US liberal).
That's because unlike the US, the right wing in NL is not married to the church. However, if you were to have a CDA, CU, SGP government, those Polish laws would be passed at record speed. Luckily for us, there aren't enough religious fanatics in NL to vote those three parties into power, and CDA in a coalition with other parties tends to drop its religious zealotry by the roadside.
EDIT: put more precisely, we have a multi-party system and thus have a distinction between social conservative and fiscal conservative parties. For instance, the CU would be labeled socially conservative while fiscally progressive. Whereas the CDA is conservative and central, and the SGP is a one-issue party that just wants strict protestantism front and center on all policy decisions (women's rights back to the stone age, sunday a day of rest, gay marriage banned, etc.)
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On April 01 2016 16:55 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2016 08:37 Nyxisto wrote:On April 01 2016 07:52 PoulsenB wrote:The Polish prime minister, Beata Szydło, said she backs moves towards a total ban on abortion, in a sign the nationalist government may be set to turn its attention to the nuclear family.
A campaign against abortion is due to be launched this Sunday in the country’s Roman Catholic churches. Priests have been asked to read out a letter from the bishops’ conference calling for Poland’s existing, limited abortion rights to be scrapped.
After mass on church steps, anti-abortion group Fundacja Pro will gather petition signatures for a citizen’s parliamentary bill calling for a total ban.
Asked on Polish public radio on Thursday if she supported the campaign to bring the issue to parliament, Szydło said: “Every MP will vote in line with his own conscience. At the moment I can not talk about the bill, because this bill does not yet exist. As for my opinion, yes, I support this initiative.”
Poland already strictly limits access to abortion. A 1993 law grants it up to the 25th week from conception, but only on the condition that the woman’s life is in danger, the pregnancy is the result of criminally proven rape or incest, or the foetus is “seriously malformed”.
The bishops’ letter, signed on Wednesday, calls the current law a compromise, adding: “The life of every person is protected by the fifth of the Ten Commandments: thou shalt not kill. Therefore the position of Catholics in this regard is clear and unchanging.’’
Monika Płatek, a prominent member of Poland’s Women’s Congress, said the prime minister’s view illustrated the influence of the church on the ruling Law & Justice party.
“The bishops do not care if a woman dies. Szydło is a puppet. The abortion ban was the condition of the church’s support for Law & Justice. The move is typical of an arbitrary state that uses support for moral ideas to take total control.
“We saw it under Hitler and Ceaușescu and now we are seeing it under Law & Justice,’’ said Płatek, a professor of law at the University of Warsaw. www.theguardian.com There are no brakes on the PiS train. Seriously do the Polish posters here still think electing those guys was a good idea? Our society is pretty polarized. I doubt people who didint switch train one month after election are going to be concerened by this. PiS core electorate is very stable and the things PiS is legislating are the things they want. PiS isnt going to care about any kind of opostion short of mass protests (bigger than the ones they already got). This is only start, theys till have 3,5 year to go.
On April 01 2016 17:38 PoulsenB wrote:Basically this. PiS has been steadily leading the polls as the party with most support, averaging 30-35% (up to almost 40% at times). The opposition is very fragmented and no single party can get close to PiS in the polls; and in parliament, PiS has majority (very slight, by still), so they can pass any law they want and nobody can do anything about it.
The part of their core electorate which supports this sort of legislation amounts to maybe 20-25%. The rest are their more moderate conservative voters and the non-core electorate. By passing this legislation, they risk alienating the latter two groups, myself included (I asked my candidate about this issue, among other things, and wouldn't have voted for him had he not supported the status quo). We have to wait for the polls. My take is that their support will decrease if the bill is passed.
At the same time, my assessment is that this is all a political spectacle, including the approval of Kaczyński and Szydło, aimed at appeasing the core electorate and the Church without alienating the moderate voters. My best guess is that Kaczyński is going to publicly express support of the bill and appeal to PiS's MPs to vote according to their conscience, while trying rig the vote to make the bill not pass behind the curtains. That way after the dust settles, they could claim that at least they tried, while maintaining the status quo. The only downside of this plan is that the bill might actually get passed with enough votes of Kukiz'15.
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On April 01 2016 21:21 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2016 21:11 RvB wrote:
And it's not true. The right wing in NL isn't in favour of curbing abbortion and neither is any liberal right winger (european kind not US liberal). That's because unlike the US, the right wing in NL is not married to the church. However, if you were to have a CDA, CU, SGP government, those Polish laws would be passed at record speed. Luckily for us, there aren't enough religious fanatics in NL to vote those three parties into power, and CDA in a coalition with other parties tends to drop its religious zealotry by the roadside. EDIT: put more precisely, we have a multi-party system and thus have a distinction between social conservative and fiscal conservative parties. For instance, the CU would be labeled socially conservative while fiscally progressive. Whereas the CDA is conservative and central, and the SGP is a one-issue party that just wants strict protestantism front and center on all policy decisions (women's rights back to the stone age, sunday a day of rest, gay marriage banned, etc.)
Ehm.
The CDA hasn't been an actual religious party for a long time.
The SGP has nothing about banning abortion in their program, tho they want to increase restrictions and remove public funding.
Only the CU has banning it on the program.
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On March 31 2016 10:56 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2016 10:02 oneofthem wrote:
causal direction is wrong. oil pumps in hands of exploitative regimes = corrupt industry. corruption is really too nice you are looking at organized crime states Yea. Most of the largest oil companies in the world are government owned. PeMex, Saudi Aramco, Petróleos de Venezuela, several chinese owned corps, Petrobras. Bribery is likely the cost of doing business in many of these places. Its not some sort of "aha look at this corruptiong" scandal, its "look at how shitty these countries are" scandal. Its not like Obama and Cameron were accepting bribes.
You know you're on the side of right when you're the one paying the bribe. Or... wait, was that right or power? Bleh, nvm, I don't think there's a difference.
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On April 01 2016 22:34 Dapper_Cad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2016 10:56 cLutZ wrote:On March 31 2016 10:02 oneofthem wrote:
causal direction is wrong. oil pumps in hands of exploitative regimes = corrupt industry. corruption is really too nice you are looking at organized crime states Yea. Most of the largest oil companies in the world are government owned. PeMex, Saudi Aramco, Petróleos de Venezuela, several chinese owned corps, Petrobras. Bribery is likely the cost of doing business in many of these places. Its not some sort of "aha look at this corruptiong" scandal, its "look at how shitty these countries are" scandal. Its not like Obama and Cameron were accepting bribes. You know you're on the side of right when you're the one paying the bribe. Or... wait, was that right or power? Bleh, nvm, I don't think there's a difference.
There are two kinds of bribes: Bribing someone not to do their job, and bribing them to acutally do thier job. If you go south of the American border the latter is a cost of doing business.
FIFA and the IOC ( not that they are clean either) probably had 5%+ thier costs of construction as bribes.
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On April 01 2016 23:45 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2016 22:34 Dapper_Cad wrote:On March 31 2016 10:56 cLutZ wrote:On March 31 2016 10:02 oneofthem wrote:
causal direction is wrong. oil pumps in hands of exploitative regimes = corrupt industry. corruption is really too nice you are looking at organized crime states Yea. Most of the largest oil companies in the world are government owned. PeMex, Saudi Aramco, Petróleos de Venezuela, several chinese owned corps, Petrobras. Bribery is likely the cost of doing business in many of these places. Its not some sort of "aha look at this corruptiong" scandal, its "look at how shitty these countries are" scandal. Its not like Obama and Cameron were accepting bribes. You know you're on the side of right when you're the one paying the bribe. Or... wait, was that right or power? Bleh, nvm, I don't think there's a difference. There are two kinds of bribes: Bribing someone not to do their job, and bribing them to acutally do thier job. If you go south of the American border the latter is a cost of doing business. FIFA and the IOC ( not that they are clean either) probably had 5%+ thier costs of construction as bribes.
I know, it's government owned foreign oil companies that are the bad guys, privately owned domestic oil companies are innocent / were forced into it / contain a few bad apples. This is completely obvious to everyone even though the investigation has barely begun.
It's like how an official from a third world hole accepting a bribe means they come from a backward culture - that should be better but it just isn't and that's how the world works - while giving a bribe, getting a sweetheart deal to strip some of the poorest people in the world of their assets and then hiding the profit from taxes in any jurisdiction using a system set up and maintained by Britain and the U.S. means you're just doing your job.
I think we totally agree here.
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On April 01 2016 08:37 Nyxisto wrote:
There are no brakes on the PiS train. Seriously do the Polish posters here still think electing those guys was a good idea?
A huge amount of people in Poland are disillusioned by the EU, and the immigrant crisis made that feeling even worse. While these abortion laws are idiotic, I don't personally know of any Polish people who are sad that Polish borders are closed to refugees. It really was an important topic, and Polish people don't have any patience for Greece/Italy/Spain as well as refugees.
I'd like to hear different perspectives, but it feels like the overwhelming majority of people feel this way, and other parties weren't going to address the issues as directly. Whether or not you agree with the party, they did something about it.
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On April 02 2016 02:22 Dapper_Cad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2016 23:45 cLutZ wrote:On April 01 2016 22:34 Dapper_Cad wrote:On March 31 2016 10:56 cLutZ wrote:On March 31 2016 10:02 oneofthem wrote:
causal direction is wrong. oil pumps in hands of exploitative regimes = corrupt industry. corruption is really too nice you are looking at organized crime states Yea. Most of the largest oil companies in the world are government owned. PeMex, Saudi Aramco, Petróleos de Venezuela, several chinese owned corps, Petrobras. Bribery is likely the cost of doing business in many of these places. Its not some sort of "aha look at this corruptiong" scandal, its "look at how shitty these countries are" scandal. Its not like Obama and Cameron were accepting bribes. You know you're on the side of right when you're the one paying the bribe. Or... wait, was that right or power? Bleh, nvm, I don't think there's a difference. There are two kinds of bribes: Bribing someone not to do their job, and bribing them to acutally do thier job. If you go south of the American border the latter is a cost of doing business. FIFA and the IOC ( not that they are clean either) probably had 5%+ thier costs of construction as bribes. I know, it's government owned foreign oil companies that are the bad guys, privately owned domestic oil companies are innocent / were forced into it / contain a few bad apples. This is completely obvious to everyone even though the investigation has barely begun. It's like how an official from a third world hole accepting a bribe means they come from a backward culture - that should be better but it just isn't and that's how the world works - while giving a bribe, getting a sweetheart deal to strip some of the poorest people in the world of their assets and then hiding the profit from taxes in any jurisdiction using a system set up and maintained by Britain and the U.S. means you're just doing your job. I think we totally agree here.
Don't forget that you just have to rename the bribery to make it totally ok anyways. Call it "lobbying", "campaign donations", "speaking fees", and it is obviously not corruption, but you using your money to do free speech.
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On April 02 2016 15:42 Thaniri wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2016 08:37 Nyxisto wrote:
There are no brakes on the PiS train. Seriously do the Polish posters here still think electing those guys was a good idea? A huge amount of people in Poland are disillusioned by the EU, and the immigrant crisis made that feeling even worse. While these abortion laws are idiotic, I don't personally know of any Polish people who are sad that Polish borders are closed to refugees. It really was an important topic, and Polish people don't have any patience for Greece/Italy/Spain as well as refugees. I'd like to hear different perspectives, but it feels like the overwhelming majority of people feel this way, and other parties weren't going to address the issues as directly. Whether or not you agree with the party, they did something about it.
I find it funny that a country with so few Arab immigrants is so hostile to welcoming refugees. Meanwhile, 2 millions Poles emigrated from Poland since 2004, and it apparently seems completely normal.
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On April 02 2016 17:53 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2016 15:42 Thaniri wrote:On April 01 2016 08:37 Nyxisto wrote:
There are no brakes on the PiS train. Seriously do the Polish posters here still think electing those guys was a good idea? A huge amount of people in Poland are disillusioned by the EU, and the immigrant crisis made that feeling even worse. While these abortion laws are idiotic, I don't personally know of any Polish people who are sad that Polish borders are closed to refugees. It really was an important topic, and Polish people don't have any patience for Greece/Italy/Spain as well as refugees. I'd like to hear different perspectives, but it feels like the overwhelming majority of people feel this way, and other parties weren't going to address the issues as directly. Whether or not you agree with the party, they did something about it. I find it funny that a country with so few Arab immigrants is so hostile to welcoming refugees. Meanwhile, 2 millions Poles emigrated from Poland since 2004, and it apparently seems completely normal.
The vast majority of them are not refugees. EU is doing a terrible job at verifying their identity and confirming actual refugees. Statistical data prove that those people do not assimilate and are not beneficial to the economy, while creating unnecessary social strife. So there are no benefits of accepting them and plenty of downsides. Why should we accept them, then? To show solidarity with Western European countries, which show solidarity with us only when it suits them?
And 2 million Poles emigrating was a natural consequence of how our transition from planned economy was handled, and it was part of the agreement with other EU members who enjoyed the benefit of Poland opening its market to them. Not to mention the fact that Poles for the most part integrate into the society just fine. So I don't see how Polish migration (which will hurt our country in the long-run) is at all comparable to the "refugee" crisis.
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was apples and oranges anyway; pole = nationality bound, arab = ethnic(?) group bound.
should've been slavic vs arabic but even then the generalization was strong within that one.
http://qz.com/653399/refugees-are-being-sent-back-to-syria-by-one-of-the-only-countries-they-can-escape-to/ Syrians trying to escape from civil war and ISIL are being forcibly returned to the country, in direct contravention of international law, according to a report released yesterday (April 1).
Amnesty International, a human rights organization, claims that Turkey, which shares a long land border with Syria, is rounding up groups of hundreds of refugees and forcing them to return across the border. Turkey has denied returning refugees to Syria against their will, according to the BBC. But Amnesty says the mass returns are an “open secret” in the region. The report includes testimonies from people who say they were forced back to Syria in recent months, and includes cases of children as young as nine returned without their parents.
The situation is likely to get worse. A deal signed two weeks ago between the European Union and Turkey would allow Europe to send refugees back to Turkey if they cross the bloc’s borders from that country. More than 850,000 people made the journey from Turkey to Europe last year, many via a dangerous crossing by dingy to Greece.
The deal, under which Turkey has been promised money and a fast-track to eventual EU membership, has been heavily criticized by human rights groups. The UN urged that it be scrapped unless the safety of those returned can be assured. “It is a deal that can only be implemented with the hardest of hearts and a blithe disregard for international law,” said John Dalhuisen, Amnesty’s director for Europe and Central Asia, in the group’s report. doubt it's an April's fool prank.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On April 02 2016 02:22 Dapper_Cad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2016 23:45 cLutZ wrote:On April 01 2016 22:34 Dapper_Cad wrote:On March 31 2016 10:56 cLutZ wrote:On March 31 2016 10:02 oneofthem wrote:
causal direction is wrong. oil pumps in hands of exploitative regimes = corrupt industry. corruption is really too nice you are looking at organized crime states Yea. Most of the largest oil companies in the world are government owned. PeMex, Saudi Aramco, Petróleos de Venezuela, several chinese owned corps, Petrobras. Bribery is likely the cost of doing business in many of these places. Its not some sort of "aha look at this corruptiong" scandal, its "look at how shitty these countries are" scandal. Its not like Obama and Cameron were accepting bribes. You know you're on the side of right when you're the one paying the bribe. Or... wait, was that right or power? Bleh, nvm, I don't think there's a difference. There are two kinds of bribes: Bribing someone not to do their job, and bribing them to acutally do thier job. If you go south of the American border the latter is a cost of doing business. FIFA and the IOC ( not that they are clean either) probably had 5%+ thier costs of construction as bribes. I know, it's government owned foreign oil companies that are the bad guys, privately owned domestic oil companies are innocent / were forced into it / contain a few bad apples. This is completely obvious to everyone even though the investigation has barely begun. It's like how an official from a third world hole accepting a bribe means they come from a backward culture - that should be better but it just isn't and that's how the world works - while giving a bribe, getting a sweetheart deal to strip some of the poorest people in the world of their assets and then hiding the profit from taxes in any jurisdiction using a system set up and maintained by Britain and the U.S. means you're just doing your job. I think we totally agree here.
private sector is there to make money, which in the environment described means accepting corruption as a cost.
in this situation the cause of corruption is clearly the one holding the resource
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On April 03 2016 00:31 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2016 02:22 Dapper_Cad wrote:On April 01 2016 23:45 cLutZ wrote:On April 01 2016 22:34 Dapper_Cad wrote:On March 31 2016 10:56 cLutZ wrote:On March 31 2016 10:02 oneofthem wrote:
causal direction is wrong. oil pumps in hands of exploitative regimes = corrupt industry. corruption is really too nice you are looking at organized crime states Yea. Most of the largest oil companies in the world are government owned. PeMex, Saudi Aramco, Petróleos de Venezuela, several chinese owned corps, Petrobras. Bribery is likely the cost of doing business in many of these places. Its not some sort of "aha look at this corruptiong" scandal, its "look at how shitty these countries are" scandal. Its not like Obama and Cameron were accepting bribes. You know you're on the side of right when you're the one paying the bribe. Or... wait, was that right or power? Bleh, nvm, I don't think there's a difference. There are two kinds of bribes: Bribing someone not to do their job, and bribing them to acutally do thier job. If you go south of the American border the latter is a cost of doing business. FIFA and the IOC ( not that they are clean either) probably had 5%+ thier costs of construction as bribes. I know, it's government owned foreign oil companies that are the bad guys, privately owned domestic oil companies are innocent / were forced into it / contain a few bad apples. This is completely obvious to everyone even though the investigation has barely begun. It's like how an official from a third world hole accepting a bribe means they come from a backward culture - that should be better but it just isn't and that's how the world works - while giving a bribe, getting a sweetheart deal to strip some of the poorest people in the world of their assets and then hiding the profit from taxes in any jurisdiction using a system set up and maintained by Britain and the U.S. means you're just doing your job. I think we totally agree here. private sector is there to make money, which in the environment described means accepting corruption as a cost. in this situation the cause of corruption is clearly the one holding the resource
That's a very simplistic view of the matter. Just because private sector is there to make money doesn't mean it's okay to go to illegal lengths to do it. And while corruption is rampant in many countries, it is also illegal, even, or often especially by local law.
Ironically, the anti-corruption regulations here in Brazil are quite a lot stricter than in NL.
As for your second point, that's just flatout wrong. It is not necessarily the resource-holding party who is to blame for soliciting bribes. It can just as well be the resource-desiring party showing up with a big bag of money.
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On April 02 2016 17:53 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2016 15:42 Thaniri wrote:On April 01 2016 08:37 Nyxisto wrote:
There are no brakes on the PiS train. Seriously do the Polish posters here still think electing those guys was a good idea? A huge amount of people in Poland are disillusioned by the EU, and the immigrant crisis made that feeling even worse. While these abortion laws are idiotic, I don't personally know of any Polish people who are sad that Polish borders are closed to refugees. It really was an important topic, and Polish people don't have any patience for Greece/Italy/Spain as well as refugees. I'd like to hear different perspectives, but it feels like the overwhelming majority of people feel this way, and other parties weren't going to address the issues as directly. Whether or not you agree with the party, they did something about it. I find it funny that a country with so few Arab immigrants is so hostile to welcoming refugees. Meanwhile, 2 millions Poles emigrated from Poland since 2004, and it apparently seems completely normal.
I'll grant that many Polish people are coming to western Europe and simply taking advantage of the system. If I was a western leader, I'd ask for a stop to it. Just like Britain is doing. I'm not proud when I see Polish people like that. This exact same thing is being done by many Africans and Muslims. Most migrants aren't even Syrian refugees, they're economic migrants.
Many "refugees" don't even want to be in Poland in the first place because it is not a rich country like Germany, Sweden, or England. There was a movement to accept some real Syrian christian refugees, but not an economic migrant, and not a Muslim. Real refugees probably don't give a shit what country they're in as long as they're not being bombed. In Europe there is no process for vetting illegal immigrants. Due to humanitarian reasons we're forced to accept everyone who claims they are being persecuted even if they are not, and its bullshit. Not just for Poland. It's bullshit for Germany, for Sweden, for England, for France.
edit: Despite cultural differences, Poland accepted Vietnamese refugees during their war with America. As soon as the war was over they all left as soon as they could. Maybe it's because Poland was a poor country at the time, or because refugees should be taken back home when it is safe.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On April 03 2016 00:56 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2016 00:31 oneofthem wrote:On April 02 2016 02:22 Dapper_Cad wrote:On April 01 2016 23:45 cLutZ wrote:On April 01 2016 22:34 Dapper_Cad wrote:On March 31 2016 10:56 cLutZ wrote:On March 31 2016 10:02 oneofthem wrote:
causal direction is wrong. oil pumps in hands of exploitative regimes = corrupt industry. corruption is really too nice you are looking at organized crime states Yea. Most of the largest oil companies in the world are government owned. PeMex, Saudi Aramco, Petróleos de Venezuela, several chinese owned corps, Petrobras. Bribery is likely the cost of doing business in many of these places. Its not some sort of "aha look at this corruptiong" scandal, its "look at how shitty these countries are" scandal. Its not like Obama and Cameron were accepting bribes. You know you're on the side of right when you're the one paying the bribe. Or... wait, was that right or power? Bleh, nvm, I don't think there's a difference. There are two kinds of bribes: Bribing someone not to do their job, and bribing them to acutally do thier job. If you go south of the American border the latter is a cost of doing business. FIFA and the IOC ( not that they are clean either) probably had 5%+ thier costs of construction as bribes. I know, it's government owned foreign oil companies that are the bad guys, privately owned domestic oil companies are innocent / were forced into it / contain a few bad apples. This is completely obvious to everyone even though the investigation has barely begun. It's like how an official from a third world hole accepting a bribe means they come from a backward culture - that should be better but it just isn't and that's how the world works - while giving a bribe, getting a sweetheart deal to strip some of the poorest people in the world of their assets and then hiding the profit from taxes in any jurisdiction using a system set up and maintained by Britain and the U.S. means you're just doing your job. I think we totally agree here. private sector is there to make money, which in the environment described means accepting corruption as a cost. in this situation the cause of corruption is clearly the one holding the resource That's a very simplistic view of the matter. Just because private sector is there to make money doesn't mean it's okay to go to illegal lengths to do it. And while corruption is rampant in many countries, it is also illegal, even, or often especially by local law. Ironically, the anti-corruption regulations here in Brazil are quite a lot stricter than in NL. As for your second point, that's just flatout wrong. It is not necessarily the resource-holding party who is to blame for soliciting bribes. It can just as well be the resource-desiring party showing up with a big bag of money.
lol who said it is ok?
the other stuff is just naive.
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On April 03 2016 03:20 Thaniri wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2016 17:53 OtherWorld wrote:On April 02 2016 15:42 Thaniri wrote:On April 01 2016 08:37 Nyxisto wrote:
There are no brakes on the PiS train. Seriously do the Polish posters here still think electing those guys was a good idea? A huge amount of people in Poland are disillusioned by the EU, and the immigrant crisis made that feeling even worse. While these abortion laws are idiotic, I don't personally know of any Polish people who are sad that Polish borders are closed to refugees. It really was an important topic, and Polish people don't have any patience for Greece/Italy/Spain as well as refugees. I'd like to hear different perspectives, but it feels like the overwhelming majority of people feel this way, and other parties weren't going to address the issues as directly. Whether or not you agree with the party, they did something about it. I find it funny that a country with so few Arab immigrants is so hostile to welcoming refugees. Meanwhile, 2 millions Poles emigrated from Poland since 2004, and it apparently seems completely normal. I'll grant that many Polish people are coming to western Europe and simply taking advantage of the system. If I was a western leader, I'd ask for a stop to it. Just like Britain is doing. I'm not proud when I see Polish people like that.
Really? The common stereotype of the Polish in UK are of hard working people who have no problems integrating.
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On April 03 2016 04:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2016 03:20 Thaniri wrote:On April 02 2016 17:53 OtherWorld wrote:On April 02 2016 15:42 Thaniri wrote:On April 01 2016 08:37 Nyxisto wrote:
There are no brakes on the PiS train. Seriously do the Polish posters here still think electing those guys was a good idea? A huge amount of people in Poland are disillusioned by the EU, and the immigrant crisis made that feeling even worse. While these abortion laws are idiotic, I don't personally know of any Polish people who are sad that Polish borders are closed to refugees. It really was an important topic, and Polish people don't have any patience for Greece/Italy/Spain as well as refugees. I'd like to hear different perspectives, but it feels like the overwhelming majority of people feel this way, and other parties weren't going to address the issues as directly. Whether or not you agree with the party, they did something about it. I find it funny that a country with so few Arab immigrants is so hostile to welcoming refugees. Meanwhile, 2 millions Poles emigrated from Poland since 2004, and it apparently seems completely normal. I'll grant that many Polish people are coming to western Europe and simply taking advantage of the system. If I was a western leader, I'd ask for a stop to it. Just like Britain is doing. I'm not proud when I see Polish people like that. Really? The common stereotype of the Polish in UK are of hard working people who have no problems integrating.
Just some stats to reinforce this: Less than 1% of the Polish immigrants to the UK are on welfare. There are even Poles qualifying for welfare who do not apply (this is directly from discussions with my GF who recently wrote her master thesis on Brexit, so sadly I can't currently supply source)
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On April 03 2016 03:23 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2016 00:56 Acrofales wrote:On April 03 2016 00:31 oneofthem wrote:On April 02 2016 02:22 Dapper_Cad wrote:On April 01 2016 23:45 cLutZ wrote:On April 01 2016 22:34 Dapper_Cad wrote:On March 31 2016 10:56 cLutZ wrote:On March 31 2016 10:02 oneofthem wrote:
causal direction is wrong. oil pumps in hands of exploitative regimes = corrupt industry. corruption is really too nice you are looking at organized crime states Yea. Most of the largest oil companies in the world are government owned. PeMex, Saudi Aramco, Petróleos de Venezuela, several chinese owned corps, Petrobras. Bribery is likely the cost of doing business in many of these places. Its not some sort of "aha look at this corruptiong" scandal, its "look at how shitty these countries are" scandal. Its not like Obama and Cameron were accepting bribes. You know you're on the side of right when you're the one paying the bribe. Or... wait, was that right or power? Bleh, nvm, I don't think there's a difference. There are two kinds of bribes: Bribing someone not to do their job, and bribing them to acutally do thier job. If you go south of the American border the latter is a cost of doing business. FIFA and the IOC ( not that they are clean either) probably had 5%+ thier costs of construction as bribes. I know, it's government owned foreign oil companies that are the bad guys, privately owned domestic oil companies are innocent / were forced into it / contain a few bad apples. This is completely obvious to everyone even though the investigation has barely begun. It's like how an official from a third world hole accepting a bribe means they come from a backward culture - that should be better but it just isn't and that's how the world works - while giving a bribe, getting a sweetheart deal to strip some of the poorest people in the world of their assets and then hiding the profit from taxes in any jurisdiction using a system set up and maintained by Britain and the U.S. means you're just doing your job. I think we totally agree here. private sector is there to make money, which in the environment described means accepting corruption as a cost. in this situation the cause of corruption is clearly the one holding the resource That's a very simplistic view of the matter. Just because private sector is there to make money doesn't mean it's okay to go to illegal lengths to do it. And while corruption is rampant in many countries, it is also illegal, even, or often especially by local law. Ironically, the anti-corruption regulations here in Brazil are quite a lot stricter than in NL. As for your second point, that's just flatout wrong. It is not necessarily the resource-holding party who is to blame for soliciting bribes. It can just as well be the resource-desiring party showing up with a big bag of money. lol who said it is ok? the other stuff is just naive.
1. You said it was okay by referring to it as "the cost of doing business". This type of whitewashing is exactly the mentality that causes the perpetuation of corruption. The sort of pervasive idea that it's okay to grease some palms, because otherwise someone else will.
2. Not quite sure what part you're calling naive, but if it's the second part, it really does take two to tango. Someone to grease palms and someone with palms that need greasing... putting all the blame on the latter is just disingenuous.
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On April 03 2016 04:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2016 03:20 Thaniri wrote:On April 02 2016 17:53 OtherWorld wrote:On April 02 2016 15:42 Thaniri wrote:On April 01 2016 08:37 Nyxisto wrote:
There are no brakes on the PiS train. Seriously do the Polish posters here still think electing those guys was a good idea? A huge amount of people in Poland are disillusioned by the EU, and the immigrant crisis made that feeling even worse. While these abortion laws are idiotic, I don't personally know of any Polish people who are sad that Polish borders are closed to refugees. It really was an important topic, and Polish people don't have any patience for Greece/Italy/Spain as well as refugees. I'd like to hear different perspectives, but it feels like the overwhelming majority of people feel this way, and other parties weren't going to address the issues as directly. Whether or not you agree with the party, they did something about it. I find it funny that a country with so few Arab immigrants is so hostile to welcoming refugees. Meanwhile, 2 millions Poles emigrated from Poland since 2004, and it apparently seems completely normal. I'll grant that many Polish people are coming to western Europe and simply taking advantage of the system. If I was a western leader, I'd ask for a stop to it. Just like Britain is doing. I'm not proud when I see Polish people like that. Really? The common stereotype of the Polish in UK are of hard working people who have no problems integrating.
I have very little exposure to the UK, I've only visited there for less than month. So take it with a grain of salt.
I noticed there is some racism in the less-well-off areas (I was in Norbury in London... lol), but otherwise it was fine. I know several hard working people, but also a couple of thieves/criminals from eastern Europe, not just Poland.
I actually wrote a long post about how Polish people make a point to assimilate to the country they go to, while some of these migrants make a point not to, and that is a huge problem/difference. I deleted it though because I don't want the SJWs to track down my IP and out me or something.
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The leaked remarks of International Monetary Fund officials suggesting the lender may threaten to pull out of Greece’s bailout are eliciting anger in Athens and could jeopardize debt negotiations.
The Huffington Post exclusively obtained a private letter on Saturday from Greek prime minister Alexis Tsipras to IMF managing director Christine Lagarde, demanding answers for some of the controversial comments in a March 19 teleconference between Poul Thomsen, IMF European director, Delia Velculescu, IMF chief of mission in Greece and IMF official Iva Petrova.
Wikileaks released a transcript of the phone conversation earlier on Saturday in which Thomsen and Velculescu indicate that only a new crisis would prompt both Greece and Germany to fulfill their obligations under the bailout agreement. Velculescu raises concerns that while more time may be needed to push the parties toward an agreement, postponing a meeting could be a “disaster.”
Tsipras wants to know whether Thomsen and Velculescu’s apparent belief that the IMF must rely on another crisis-inducing “credit event” to force Greece’s hand “reflects the official IMF view.” If so, Tsipras challenges the IMF to defend the policy, given accepted norms of negotiation.
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EPT
