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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On January 26 2016 08:20 Deathstar wrote:
This crisis is very similar to the problem the US faces with Mexico. The conclusion is that you're not going to stop people from coming in. North Africans and Middle Easterns are as interconnected to Europe as Mexico is to the US. What you can do is help your neighbor rise up to be stable and strong and it will cease the refugee issue in addition to having other bonuses.
Look what's done is done. What matters if how the EU will handle its new challenges.
you must be trolling at this point, or at least feign total ignorance? you are aware of the reasons that totally set the middle east on fire?
//edit: and that last sentence lol. I will try to translate.
"we messed up and you only halfheartedly tried to stop us. now please deal with the massive symptoms of the mess yourself. your's truly, uncle sam."
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On January 26 2016 08:20 Deathstar wrote:
This crisis is very similar to the problem the US faces with Mexico. The conclusion is that you're not going to stop people from coming in. North Africans and Middle Easterns are as interconnected to Europe as Mexico is to the US. What you can do is help your neighbor rise up to be stable and strong and it will cease the refugee issue in addition to having other bonuses.
Look what's done is done. What matters is how the EU will handle its new challenges.
Yeah, we just need to uplift Africa out of the 3e world and fix several centuries of religious violence in the middle east.
easy as pie.
At least Mexico 'only' has a drug cartel problem.
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On January 26 2016 08:25 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 08:20 Deathstar wrote:
This crisis is very similar to the problem the US faces with Mexico. The conclusion is that you're not going to stop people from coming in. North Africans and Middle Easterns are as interconnected to Europe as Mexico is to the US. What you can do is help your neighbor rise up to be stable and strong and it will cease the refugee issue in addition to having other bonuses.
Look what's done is done. What matters is how the EU will handle its new challenges. Yeah, we just need to uplift Africa out of the 3e world and fix several centuries of religious violence in the middle east. easy as pie. At least Mexico 'only' has a drug cartel problem.
Stabilizing the Middle-East isn't easy, but yes it is the only answer that actually grabs the problem at its root. And yes, this will take decades and it is possible that there is no short term answer.
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On January 26 2016 08:27 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 08:25 Gorsameth wrote:On January 26 2016 08:20 Deathstar wrote:
This crisis is very similar to the problem the US faces with Mexico. The conclusion is that you're not going to stop people from coming in. North Africans and Middle Easterns are as interconnected to Europe as Mexico is to the US. What you can do is help your neighbor rise up to be stable and strong and it will cease the refugee issue in addition to having other bonuses.
Look what's done is done. What matters is how the EU will handle its new challenges. Yeah, we just need to uplift Africa out of the 3e world and fix several centuries of religious violence in the middle east. easy as pie. At least Mexico 'only' has a drug cartel problem. Stabilizing the Middle-East isn't easy, but yes it is the only answer that actually grabs the problem at its root. And yes, this will take decades and it is possible that there is no short term answer.
Or we could leave them to do as they please and focus on remedying the symptoms that we happen to be affected by. 
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On January 26 2016 06:53 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 06:09 Nyxisto wrote:
well maybe because the EU has 40.000 kilometers of maritime sea border and 15.000 kilometers of external land borders. This isn't a videogame, you can't just increase the border control slider and then less scary stuff happens You will have to secure those same borders plus all the internal national borders if you get rid of Schengen. That's kind of the point, they want to secure their borders so they're trying to get rid of Schengen. That's nonsensical since you'll only have more border to secure.
You clearly don't get it. From a Dutch point of view:
Without Schengen: have to secure about 500km (absolute max) of border
With Schengen: have to secure about 15000km of border
Response: fuck no, we're doing the 500km thing.
Answer: but what about Italy and Greece? Won't they get swamped in immigrants?
Dutch: NANANANANANANANA NOT MY PROBLEM
Replace Dutch with Danish, Belgians, Latvians or anybody else for who this "solution" would seem to work (at least in the short term).
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On January 26 2016 07:41 Gorsameth wrote:
Even more then the actual effect of closing national borders is the psychological effect.
The lack of coherent answer from the EU and their inability to deal with the problem is making people question the existence of it the Union. This is the very sort of problem it is made for (aside from internal economics), if our politicians cant handle it then why do we want this Union?
A Union that somewhat works when all is well and utterly fails at its first tests (Greece and now Immigration) is garbage.
ps.
You secure the Mediterranean border at the African shore, not in the middle of the sea. When your rescuing/drowning people at sea your already to late.
Good luck securing anything in Libya. Or even parts of Egypt.
Regarding your other point, I agree. Europe's internal bickering (and popular resistance to any idea that might get put forth by Brussels) is showing that it is far easier to topple than people (horrendously optimistically) thought in the 90s.
And I am an EU lover. I would vote D66 in the national elections if I thought they had a spine (instead I voted the Piratenpartij last elections, but that did nothing at all. I hoped they'd scrape together a seat). I believe in Project Europe. But right now our politicians are a bunch of limp dicks being held together by the iron fist of Merkel, who everybody hates even when they agree with her policies. Meanwhile resistance to anything Europe grows stronger, even if most of policies make actual sense, there's resentment because they were imposed by Brussels (rather than imposed by the local government).
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I think something to consider is that the EU has been very hands off with the middle east (please let me know if I'm wrong). I read about some foreign aid here and there but the middle east is facing failed states and failed states and what the area needs is order. EU and its member countries have the military power and economy and proximity to have a long-term presence in the middle east to help foster basic democratic institutions. Why don't they?
Most of the refugees want to eventually go back to their home country. Absorb them temporarily while working on making their home countries safe to live in.
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It's a better solution than leaving the Syrians to Assad and ISIS for sure, it's not going to happen though the public support for a serious mandate doesn't exist.
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On January 26 2016 08:48 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 06:53 RvB wrote:On January 26 2016 06:09 Nyxisto wrote:
well maybe because the EU has 40.000 kilometers of maritime sea border and 15.000 kilometers of external land borders. This isn't a videogame, you can't just increase the border control slider and then less scary stuff happens You will have to secure those same borders plus all the internal national borders if you get rid of Schengen. That's kind of the point, they want to secure their borders so they're trying to get rid of Schengen. That's nonsensical since you'll only have more border to secure. You clearly don't get it. From a Dutch point of view: Without Schengen: have to secure about 500km (absolute max) of border With Schengen: have to secure about 15000km of border Response: fuck no, we're doing the 500km thing. Answer: but what about Italy and Greece? Won't they get swamped in immigrants? Dutch: NANANANANANANANA NOT MY PROBLEM Replace Dutch with Danish, Belgians, Latvians or anybody else for who this "solution" would seem to work (at least in the short term).
Do you realize italians are picking refugees up to 10 km far from the lybian coast? This is ridicolous. People know this - smugglers just cruise 15-20 km, then send an s.o.s message and gtfo with smaller, faster boats while the italian navy comes to pick the refugees up. This has been covered a lot by italian press.
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On January 26 2016 08:58 Deathstar wrote:
I think something to consider is that the EU has been very hands off with the middle east (please let me know if I'm wrong). I read about some foreign aid here and there but the middle east is facing failed states and failed states and what the area needs is order. EU and its member countries have the military power and economy and proximity to have a long-term presence in the middle east to help foster basic democratic institutions. Why don't they?
Most of the refugees want to eventually go back to their home country. Absorb them temporarily while working on making their home countries safe to live in.
Ukraine showed that the EU is utterly spineless in the face of military pressure.
As for your solution. It is the only real solution I see as well outside of waiting until they get tired of killing each other (or only 1 side is left) but you will find little support for a 50+ year occupation which would be necessary to impose basic democracy.
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On January 26 2016 08:58 Deathstar wrote:
I think something to consider is that the EU has been very hands off with the middle east (please let me know if I'm wrong). I read about some foreign aid here and there but the middle east is facing failed states and failed states and what the area needs is order. EU and its member countries have the military power and economy and proximity to have a long-term presence in the middle east to help foster basic democratic institutions. Why don't they?
Most of the refugees want to eventually go back to their home country. Absorb them temporarily while working on making their home countries safe to live in.
Hasn't worked for the last century or so, people have their own sovereign rights, expensive, will probably result in plenty of EU citizens dying, generally not our job to right every wrong in the whole world. I can think of plenty of reasons as to why I wouldn't want the EU to get involved in the Middle East.
After the Arab spring all this presumptuous talk of bringing "basic democracy" to the Middle East sounds even more silly than it did before.
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Because we saw what happened when the US tried. There is no way to fix the middle east unless there is some major political will in the middle east to be fixed.
If you just walk in, place a few democratic institutions and walk out again, you just change the dictator while reducing the stability of the situation. I guess you could try occupying large areas for decades, but historically that doesn't make the people living there more democratic, it just makes them more angry (probably reasonably so). So you will have a constant insurgency situation, which lots of lives lost on both sides for no gain whatsoever.
If i saw any way to uplift the middle east into a stable area with democratic countries without the need to subjugate an unwilling population over decades and all the nasty consequences thereof, i would agree that that is a good idea. But that is not the situation we are in. So far, every intervention in the middle east appears to consist of spending trillions and tens of thousands of lives to make everything worse for everyone involved. I do not think that is a smart idea.
As far as i know, there is exactly one case in modern history of actually changing the basic nature of a country for the better of its native population through outside influence, and that would be Germany post-WW2. And to do that, you only needed to completely beat its military over multiple years, bomb its cities into completely destruction, AND have very conclusive evidence that Germany was in fact on the wrong side of the war with stuff like concentration camps that you could show to the Germans. We don't have or want to do that in the middle east.
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On January 26 2016 09:12 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 08:58 Deathstar wrote:
I think something to consider is that the EU has been very hands off with the middle east (please let me know if I'm wrong). I read about some foreign aid here and there but the middle east is facing failed states and failed states and what the area needs is order. EU and its member countries have the military power and economy and proximity to have a long-term presence in the middle east to help foster basic democratic institutions. Why don't they?
Most of the refugees want to eventually go back to their home country. Absorb them temporarily while working on making their home countries safe to live in. Ukraine showed that the EU is utterly spineless in the face of military pressure.
Reminds me of the chav-y kids in school who thought dodging a fight instead of getting "manly rekt" is for pussies.
Humor me, what would've been "spine"?
I think something to consider is that the EU has been very hands off with the middle east (please let me know if I'm wrong). I read about some foreign aid here and there but the middle east is facing failed states and failed states and what the area needs is order. EU and its member countries have the military power and economy and proximity to have a long-term presence in the middle east to help foster basic democratic institutions. Why don't they?
Because the US tried and failed spectacularly. Like, giving everyone in the middle east free supply of crack and guns couldn't have a worse outcome, spectacularly.
Pretty much everything that moves the world at the moment, from widespread terrorism to the crisis in the middle east is due to the US fiddling in shit that they have no idea about. Now you're saying that the EU should try as well. That, and the fact that we actually can't even if we wanted. Why? To resolve "the middle east", we would need to resolve not only syria, but also things like palestina. I guess you know why israel is allowed to act like they do (literally creating the biggest concentration camp the world has ever seen), the same btw with saudi arabia. Uncle Sam needs dem bases, right?
How does that make sense?
edit: apart from the misassumption that the EU actually has the military power to do that. Germanies military certainly isn't much help, the netherlands don't even have an army to speak off, same for other countries. Can't comment on the condition of the french army, only the UK has a decent equipped and maintained army (apart from france, maybe, can't tell). Poland and italy, maybe, but they certainly don't have big armies (that's leaving out incompatibilities in IT and operational command systems, even language barriers).
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On January 26 2016 09:05 Nyxisto wrote:
It's a better solution than leaving the Syrians to Assad and ISIS for sure, it's not going to happen though the public support for a serious mandate doesn't exist.
why?
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On January 26 2016 08:06 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 06:53 RvB wrote:On January 26 2016 06:09 Nyxisto wrote:
well maybe because the EU has 40.000 kilometers of maritime sea border and 15.000 kilometers of external land borders. This isn't a videogame, you can't just increase the border control slider and then less scary stuff happens You will have to secure those same borders plus all the internal national borders if you get rid of Schengen. That's kind of the point, they want to secure their borders so they're trying to get rid of Schengen. That's nonsensical since you'll only have more border to secure. It is not nonsensical at all : the problem is that some countries (Greece) do not control their borders according to some other countries (Germany) and since the EU is unable to force any countries to protect its borders, then they prefer ending schenghen. The problem is not that they cannot protect the borders because they are too wide, but that there is no consensus on what to do with the migrants and how to do it.
Greece and Italy do not control their borders because they get almost no help. So why don't we give money/help to them instead of seperatly controlling our own borders. We can give Turkey 3 bln so we should be able to give Greece help as well.
On January 26 2016 08:48 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 06:53 RvB wrote:On January 26 2016 06:09 Nyxisto wrote:
well maybe because the EU has 40.000 kilometers of maritime sea border and 15.000 kilometers of external land borders. This isn't a videogame, you can't just increase the border control slider and then less scary stuff happens You will have to secure those same borders plus all the internal national borders if you get rid of Schengen. That's kind of the point, they want to secure their borders so they're trying to get rid of Schengen. That's nonsensical since you'll only have more border to secure. You clearly don't get it. From a Dutch point of view: Without Schengen: have to secure about 500km (absolute max) of border With Schengen: have to secure about 15000km of border Response: fuck no, we're doing the 500km thing. Answer: but what about Italy and Greece? Won't they get swamped in immigrants? Dutch: NANANANANANANANA NOT MY PROBLEM Replace Dutch with Danish, Belgians, Latvians or anybody else for who this "solution" would seem to work (at least in the short term).
Yes and that's exactly why the refugee problem is this bad now. We ignored it for years because they were stuck in Lebanon and Turkey anyway. Now it's becoming our problem and guess what Turkey let's them go because now they can get rid of those refugees. I'm not saying we wouldn't have a refugee problem if we had helped them (I think we would've) but it still wouldn't be as bad as it is now.
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Have you forgotten?
Greeks are lazy people and you won't give them any Money because....
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On January 26 2016 08:23 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 08:20 Deathstar wrote:
This crisis is very similar to the problem the US faces with Mexico. The conclusion is that you're not going to stop people from coming in. North Africans and Middle Easterns are as interconnected to Europe as Mexico is to the US. What you can do is help your neighbor rise up to be stable and strong and it will cease the refugee issue in addition to having other bonuses.
Look what's done is done. What matters if how the EU will handle its new challenges. you must be trolling at this point, or at least feign total ignorance? you are aware of the reasons that totally set the middle east on fire? //edit: and that last sentence lol. I will try to translate. "we messed up and you only halfheartedly tried to stop us. now please deal with the massive symptoms of the mess yourself. your's truly, uncle sam."
Yeh I know what you mean, the middle east has been a complete shit hole only since the U.S got involved.
Also, the crusades just happened one afternoon in a pub for no reason at all.
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just to blame the u.s short sightedness and ignorance in the middle east isnt really cutting it though. the whole region is a racial and religious mess and is on the economic decline for decades. without a bright economic future existing racial and religious tensions almost always rise. the whole region was bound to explode eventually. the rise of a backwards islam in those countries is also a consequence of the economic downfall.
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On January 26 2016 18:02 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 08:23 Doublemint wrote:On January 26 2016 08:20 Deathstar wrote:
This crisis is very similar to the problem the US faces with Mexico. The conclusion is that you're not going to stop people from coming in. North Africans and Middle Easterns are as interconnected to Europe as Mexico is to the US. What you can do is help your neighbor rise up to be stable and strong and it will cease the refugee issue in addition to having other bonuses.
Look what's done is done. What matters if how the EU will handle its new challenges. you must be trolling at this point, or at least feign total ignorance? you are aware of the reasons that totally set the middle east on fire? //edit: and that last sentence lol. I will try to translate. "we messed up and you only halfheartedly tried to stop us. now please deal with the massive symptoms of the mess yourself. your's truly, uncle sam." Yeh I know what you mean, the middle east has been a complete shit hole only since the U.S got involved. Also, the crusades just happened one afternoon in a pub for no reason at all.
Before US fucked up with Saddam, middle east was basically a bunch of dictatorships vut it was STABLE. From a selfish EU point of view, yes, US fucked up badly. Furthermore, I'm not sure that the people there that got "help" from the US think differently...
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i dont think you can blame the u.s bombing iraq for a guy in tunisia setting himself on fire.
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EPT
