EPTIf nothing else, a good lesson in media manipulation.
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 401
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
If nothing else, a good lesson in media manipulation. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
EU governments have placed a large question mark over the future of Europe’s passport-free travel zone, signalling an extension of national border controls within the 26-country Schengen area in response to the immigration crisis. As Europe scrambled to put together a coherent answer to the biggest challenge the union has ever faced, EU interior ministers meeting in Amsterdam on Monday compounded a sense of gloom and confusion in the face of ever rising numbers of people heading into Greece from Turkey. Klaas Dijkhoff, the Dutch migration minister, said the governments were to ask the European commission for permission to extend and prolong the border controls from May because the numbers of refugees reaching Europe were not diminishing. Under the rules governing the open travel area, governments could suspend the Schengen system for two years, dealing a potentially terminal blow to a scheme that has been in place for more than 20 years. “These measures are inevitable at this point in time,” said Dijkhoff of the likely suspension. Following eight hours of talks in the Dutch capital, the Austrian interior minister, Johana Mikl-Leitner, said “Schengen is on the brink of collapse.” In the past week national leaders and senior EU officials have made increasingly alarmist pronouncements on Schengen’s future, warning that the travel zone could crumble within weeks and bring with it the risk of union dissolution. The countries bearing the brunt of the mass influx of more than 1 million asylum seekers in the past year rounded on Athens, with Austria bluntly dismissing Greek arguments and warning that it could be kicked out, at least temporarily, of the Schengen area. Source | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6306 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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hfglgg
Germany5372 Posts
east germany secured their borders without much of a problem in a very short time and no one was able to get in or out without much more preperation than what is necessary today. its a matter of will, not a matter of possibility. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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RvB
Netherlands6306 Posts
On January 26 2016 06:09 Nyxisto wrote: well maybe because the EU has 40.000 kilometers of maritime sea border and 15.000 kilometers of external land borders. This isn't a videogame, you can't just increase the border control slider and then less scary stuff happens You will have to secure those same borders plus all the internal national borders if you get rid of Schengen. That's kind of the point, they want to secure their borders so they're trying to get rid of Schengen. That's nonsensical since you'll only have more border to secure. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On January 26 2016 06:53 RvB wrote: You will have to secure those same borders plus all the internal national borders if you get rid of Schengen. That's kind of the point, they want to secure their borders so they're trying to get rid of Schengen. That's nonsensical since you'll only have more border to secure. Well sure it's nonsensical, I'm not in favor of getting rid of Schengen. Even if it would work it will always be a beggar thy neighbour policy. It's a political atavism and it's popular because it sounds like the easiest answer to a complicated problem. | ||
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hfglgg
Germany5372 Posts
On January 26 2016 06:53 Nyxisto wrote: borders were secure because a non-significant number of people tried to cross them illegally, not because they offered any more or less protection than they do now. Also East Germany was good at keeping the misery in, not out ah ha and now less people cross them illegally? and it doesnt matter from which direction you want to cross it, if you want to keep people from crossing a line its super easy to do so, just put some guards there who shoot everyone who crosses it and you are fine. as said, its a matter of will and nothing else, if we stop overvaluing life the refugee crisis is ended within months. edit: the real problem at the moment is that the european peripheral states are in an economic crisis and dont have a very efficient public sector anyway. they simply cant secure their own borders because of that and it does leave them at a somewhat disadvantage when they are the only one who have to secure their borders. securing the borders should really be an eu effort but we completely ignored that issue because preparing ahead was never really our strength. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8760 Posts
On January 26 2016 06:48 hfglgg wrote: of course you can, its just a matter of how much you want to pay for it. every country was able to secure their borders before schengen and if you let people die in the Mediterranean sea instead of trying to save everyone for whatever reasons thats not a big problem either. east germany secured their borders without much of a problem in a very short time and no one was able to get in or out without much more preperation than what is necessary today. its a matter of will, not a matter of possibility. not sure you will find many supporters if you put things that bluntly. people tend to generally vote with their guts, but hearts are still a thing. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On January 26 2016 07:25 Doublemint wrote: not sure you will find many supporters if you put things that bluntly. people tend to generally vote with their guts, but hearts are still a thing. It does no one any favors when you put it that bluntly when attempting to convince people, but nonetheless it is true. There is really no obligation for nations to value the lives of foreign refugees over the well-being of their own citizens. In the long run they would do a lot more good by ceasing to support poorly planned games of military adventurism. | ||
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hfglgg
Germany5372 Posts
it will happen eventually though and our non existent refugee policy will probably kill more people than a restrictive border control could have ever done. but yeah, thinking long or even midterm isnt what most people do. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22498 Posts
The lack of coherent answer from the EU and their inability to deal with the problem is making people question the existence of it the Union. This is the very sort of problem it is made for (aside from internal economics), if our politicians cant handle it then why do we want this Union? A Union that somewhat works when all is well and utterly fails at its first tests (Greece and now Immigration) is garbage. ps. You secure the Mediterranean border at the African shore, not in the middle of the sea. When your rescuing/drowning people at sea your already to late. | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
Brilliant stuff folks. No really, you're making the TL family proud once again. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On January 26 2016 06:53 RvB wrote: You will have to secure those same borders plus all the internal national borders if you get rid of Schengen. That's kind of the point, they want to secure their borders so they're trying to get rid of Schengen. That's nonsensical since you'll only have more border to secure. It is not nonsensical at all : the problem is that some countries (Greece) do not control their borders according to some other countries (Germany) and since the EU is unable to force any countries to protect its borders, then they prefer ending schenghen. The problem is not that they cannot protect the borders because they are too wide, but that there is no consensus on what to do with the migrants and how to do it. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8760 Posts
On January 26 2016 07:41 Gorsameth wrote: Even more then the actual effect of closing national borders is the psychological effect. The lack of coherent answer from the EU and their inability to deal with the problem is making people question the existence of it the Union. This is the very sort of problem it is made for (aside from internal economics), if our politicians cant handle it then why do we want this Union? A Union that somewhat works when all is well and utterly fails at its first tests (Greece and now Immigration) is garbage. ps. You secure the Mediterranean border at the African shore, not in the middle of the sea. When your rescuing/drowning people at sea your already to late. I tend to agree. that's the great tragedy and irony as well. we would need the union to solve, or rather make the problem more manageable. yet it's also the institution least capable of doing so because of particular interests and nationalism. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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Doublemint
Austria8760 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22498 Posts
On January 26 2016 08:10 Deathstar wrote: You can patrol all you want you're not going to stop millions of people who want to get into Europe from getting in. It's more easier for European powers to use their influence to keep stable governments in North Africa and the Middle East. Now you guys realize how interconnected your live-beings are to your neighbors. Last I checked most of the EU was against the invasion of Iraq, which is the result of pretty much every problem connected to the current refugee wave. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
Look what's done is done. What matters is how the EU will handle its new challenges. Raising more borders is not the way IMO | ||
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