EPTIt's like she thought her good intentions and sticking her head in the sand would make everything turn out just fine. A smart politician would put the brakes on unlimited immigration and undercut the AfD and other even more far right parties and take the wind out of the CSU's growing revolt's sails. A party like the AfD can't survive when the government creates even just the appearance that it is listening to the concerns of the people who are now forsaking the CDU for more rightist parties (such as the AfD). Instead she seems intent on ignoring everything but her own lullabies about how Germany "can do it" and making herself, eventually, the most reviled German politician in decades.
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 392
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
It's like she thought her good intentions and sticking her head in the sand would make everything turn out just fine. A smart politician would put the brakes on unlimited immigration and undercut the AfD and other even more far right parties and take the wind out of the CSU's growing revolt's sails. A party like the AfD can't survive when the government creates even just the appearance that it is listening to the concerns of the people who are now forsaking the CDU for more rightist parties (such as the AfD). Instead she seems intent on ignoring everything but her own lullabies about how Germany "can do it" and making herself, eventually, the most reviled German politician in decades. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On January 17 2016 01:58 Nyxisto wrote: He's done more good than Yeltsin, which to be fair isn't that much of an achievement. I can live with plenty of governments not just the ones that threaten peace on the European continent because they see imaginary enemies at every corner. I also don't know what your definition of a sane person is but opinion on the Russian government has tanked pretty much anywhere outside of Russia. The country is being isolated and no one knows how many decades it will take to undo this. This is bad for the Russian people and everybody else. I read "Ho no why Russia don't want to accept our domination anymore ?". We shat on them over and over since the end of the USSR, the response they gave was obviously going to come one day or another, thank them for staying this civil. Europe will have to understand one day or another that Russia is a great nation, and you can't treat a great nation like shit for decades. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
Yeah I got it we were all very mean to Russia, the biggest country on earth with a giant stockpile of nuclear warheads. If Americans would take criticism so seriously the country would have collapsed by now because they'd all just sit around in a fetal position being traumatized. It's amazing how the Russian narrative shifts from "Russia stronk!", to "oh my god why are you doing this to us" in a matter of seconds depending on whatever emotional response is convenient at the moment. Truth is that nationalism is a hell of a drug and that the hangover is pretty bad. Just today the Russian finance ministry announced that the economy and real income are going to go down by 5% next year alone (source). It's a shame really because the Russian population is quite well educated and trained, and still the Russian oil is the only lifeline because the government decided to play real-life Europa Universalis. | ||
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AngryMag
Germany1040 Posts
On January 17 2016 02:43 Nyxisto wrote: You got me, I'll put my Pickelhaube away again : ( Yeah I got it we were all very mean to Russia, the biggest country on earth with a giant stockpile of nuclear warheads. If Americans would take criticism so seriously the country would have collapsed by now because they'd all just sit around in a fetal position being traumatized. It's amazing how the Russian narrative shifts from "Russia stronk!", to "oh my god why are you doing this to us" in a matter of seconds depending on whatever emotional response is convenient at the moment. Truth is that nationalism is a hell of a drug and that the hangover is pretty bad. Just today the Russian finance ministry announced that the economy and real income are going to go down by 5% next year alone (source). It's a shame really because the Russian population is quite well educated and trained, and still the Russian oil is the only lifeline because the government decided to play real-life Europa Universalis. Wait. Why exactly do we talk about Russia now? You reduced the point Legallord raised to him being from Russia which hasn't got anything to do with the point he mentioned, it was just an example for another policy, incidentally executed in his country. Now you refuse to talk about the point bur rather deflect it with half assed talk about Russia. And no the Russian narrative doesn't change from "Russia stronk" to "how can you do this to us". These were just two statements on the internet, one from a russian dude and one from a dude from France. WTF? | ||
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
On January 16 2016 23:34 Doublemint wrote: I am actually getting quite angry you are - STILL - trying to establish some kind of relation to fucking socrates and yourself in your sig, while at the same time typing ignorant stuff like this. you learn history to understand it, in order not to repeat the mistakes of the past. making predictions based on imperfect information... guess why we haven't gotten the hang of it yet, and - thank god - we never will? You can get angry as much as you want. I probably know Socrates more than you. Not repeating the mistakes of the past is already some sort of prediction - do you realize this? If C is a mistake and you won't repeat it, you are taking one off the umbrella of possibilities A,B,D.. I never claimed it has to be a fully determined process, but trends are noticeable. Someone asked for examples, I'll give some: - A commond mindset will usually generates an opposite one after some time (think of middle age - enlightment - romanticism) - The fall of a centralized power will lead to minor states which can be hostile to each others (what happened after the death of Alexander the Great) - A fall in general wealth will usually lead to a fall of culture (i.e. no noticeable philosophers in late antiquity before the monastic renaissance of knowledge) | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8708 Posts
On January 17 2016 03:18 SoSexy wrote: You can get angry as much as you want. I probably know Socrates more than you. Not repeating the mistakes of the past is already some sort of prediction - do you realize this? If C is a mistake and you won't repeat it, you are taking one off the umbrella of possibilities A,B,D.. I never claimed it has to be a fully determined process, but trends are noticeable. Someone asked for examples, I'll give some: - A commond mindset will usually generates an opposite one after some time (think of middle age - enlightment - romanticism) - The fall of a centralized power will lead to minor states which can be hostile to each others (what happened after the death of Alexander the Great) - A fall in general wealth will usually lead to a fall of culture (i.e. no noticeable philosophers in late antiquity before the monastic renaissance of knowledge) sure, when you are a master of mental gymnastics. maybe it's more like the fall of culture that leads to a fall in general wealth... and very nice that you now want to prove your historical prowess ^^ | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22108 Posts
On January 17 2016 01:51 LegalLord wrote: Just because German media paints Putin in a poor light as a result of current events doesn't mean that he's been bad for Russia. Many problems with him that most are willing to acknowledge, but: 1. He's done significantly more good than harm in the past 15 years and very few sane people would deny that. 2. You have pretty much directly stated that you don't see any value in any system other than the current government in your own country so you really aren't worth talking to. Yeah Putin looks pretty great when you have no other viable candidate left because every capable politician is either in his pocket or ends up in prison / dead under suspicious circumstances. And his attempt to leave a legacy by reforging the USSR by force has now seen Russia more isolated from the world then ever before. Wonderful job. | ||
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
On January 17 2016 03:24 Doublemint wrote: sure, when you are a master of mental gymnastics. maybe it's more like the fall of culture that leads to a fall in general wealth... Your last line is interesting... it could be, but I think it is like I said. When people don't have to eat, printing books is not exactly their top priority, while they could be well fed without having an interest in books | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8708 Posts
On January 17 2016 03:28 SoSexy wrote: Your last line is interesting... it could be, but I think it is like I said. When people don't have to eat, printing books is not exactly their top priority, while they could be well fed without having an interest in books on a micro level you are right I guess, but looking at the bigger picture I am not so sure. the "culture" of corruption regarding wall street/political allies of wall street and tax evasion etc... just as a very small example with pretty huge repercussions. | ||
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Hryul
Austria2609 Posts
On January 17 2016 02:16 Nyxisto wrote: no, not really. She's the fourth most popular politician in the country, her party has lost two percent in the recent polls. The hyperbole on the internet is ridiculous. AfD's at 10%. And she was #1. once. History will not be so kind to her as the German people now. | ||
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
On January 17 2016 03:32 Doublemint wrote: on a micro level you are right I guess, but looking at the bigger picture I am not so sure. the "culture" of corruption regarding wall street/political allies of wall street and tax evasion etc... just as a very small example with pretty huge repercussions. Yeah, I'd have to think about that one. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On January 17 2016 03:28 Gorsameth wrote: Yeah Putin looks pretty great when you have no other viable candidate left because every capable politician is either in his pocket or ends up in prison / dead under suspicious circumstances. And his attempt to leave a legacy by reforging the USSR by force has now seen Russia more isolated from the world then ever before. Wonderful job. One last point on the topic because while there are topics to discuss on these issues, most know little to nothing about Russian politics (excusable as non-Russians) yet have a remarkable ability to pretend they do based on propaganda they heard (not quite so excusable). Worth noting though, just in case anyone is interested in knowing about some factors that are at least somewhat tied to "Europe" as it is now. Some truth to the removal of viable opponents (not recently but there was some of this a decade ago), but this point seems to reference Khodorkovsky and Nemtsov specifically, both of whom are exaggerated into important figures in the West while being much less relevant within Russia itself. The point about "reforging the USSR by force" is essentially garbage. Essentially all land conflicts of the past decade have been related to Russian lands given to non-Russians by non-Russian leaders of the USSR, and the inevitable backlash of the local population that resulted. Structurally, the economy has been improving gradually over the years under Putin. Every year I see more successes in anti-corruption initiatives and more long-term investments in infrastructure. This current recession was going to happen without a drop in oil prices or Western sanctions due to a number of other structural weaknesses in the economy. And that's that about Russia for now. Not really related to the point I was making about the botched job done by Merkel's government in accepting malicious "refugees" en masse, so I'll leave it there. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On January 17 2016 02:16 Nyxisto wrote: no, not really. She's the fourth most popular politician in the country, her party has lost two percent in the recent polls. The hyperbole on the internet is ridiculous. That has nothing to do with what he said. Angela Merkel has done more to make Germans unsafe on their own streets and to fuel the rise of the far right than any single politician since der Furher himself. And that is completely undeniable, plus has nothing to do with Merkel herself being somehow liked (much less than before btw). | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
That Germany in a way is less safer because we have taken in one million refugees is as true as it's trivial. It was also completely unpreventable. There really is no such thing as a local conflict anymore and if we fail to manage global crises they're going to hit us in the face collectively. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On January 17 2016 04:56 Nyxisto wrote: What Angela Merkel hasn't done is use hollow buzzwords in regards to things that are out of her control. She's not a djinn, she can't wish refugees away. I guess she should have just closed the German borders and Greece now would have 900k refugees in a dysfunctional 10 mil. pop country, that would have showed the critics. That Germany in a way is less safer because we have taken in one million refugee is as true as it's trivial. It was also completely unpreventable. "Wir schaffen das" is somehow not a hollow buzzword/phrase? Mind telling me how she is going to accomplish that, because she clearly did not? And i personally find it really hard to believe that, looking at the utter chaos that's happening? But maybe i'm missing something, so feel free to. If possible, without dodging the question, it's formulated clearly and should be easy to answer, no? And considering germans cancelling shit left right and center, people being scared to go on the streets, a massive rise in arms-purchases and weapon purchases (to the point where cs-gas etc is sold out in many places) is a lot, but only a complete idiot would consider that "trivial" or "completely unpreventable". The only way this was unpreventable is if you did it like Merkel did. Which obviously was idiotic, and i bet you any money that she thinks the same looking at the mess she brought. edit: but thanks for yet again proving the point i made a couple of pages back, people like you are unable to actually argue the problems at hand. I didn't say "close the borders". Or "let greece drown". That's you assuming that that's the only other way than the way Merkel did it, which is basically the polar opposite - let everyone in, half of them even without actual control at all. That's idiotic mate. And everyone who assumes that it's either the way Merkel did, or closed borders, with nothing in between is as much of an idiot. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
People had this attitude during the cold war, during the re-unification and during the Yugoslaw wars, guess what the world is still spinning around. That people think they need to shop for the end-times know doesn't mean that their reaction is warranted. Germany didn't suddenly become significantly less safe than it was a month or a year ago. Just to give a little perspective the victims of terrorism in Western Europe from 1970 - today. A little less media consumption and fatalism would help everybody. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On January 17 2016 05:09 Nyxisto wrote: the somewhat ridiculed "we can do it" is simply a statement of fact. What do you think? Germany is going to close all stores tomorrow and we need to jump in our bunkers? The world isn't going to end just because we're in a 'crisis'. A little less apocalyptic mindset would probably be helpful. If we list all the tragedies and challenges the country faced in the last 100 years this probably doesn't make the top 20. People had this attitude during the cold war, during the re-unification and during the Yugoslaw wars, guess what the world is still spinning around. That people think they need to shop for the end-times know doesn't mean that their reaction is warranted. Germany didn't suddenly become significantly less safe than it was a month or a year ago. Well thank god that you know better than BKA, german police etc. Because they clearly state the opposite, especially in "Ballungsraeumen" like the Ruhrpott. And, you did it again. It's pointless to argue with you, until you realize that there's more than "kill all refugees" and "let them all in". Btw: feel free to argue dumb shit like "apocalyptic mindsets", fact of the matter is though that people are scared. And that people arm themselves. And that's not Nazis arming themselves, they're long armed. It's normal people who are scared. Rightfully so. edit: what the fuck has a huffpost statistic about terror-victims to do with criminal immigrants - lol. Just lol. Pretty much the same as your answer to my question "how schaffen wir das". You don't know, and neither does Merkel. And we both know that, if we want "to schaffen das", radical change has to happen. That's not "wir schaffen das", that's "we're gonna do now what should've happened in the first place". | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On January 17 2016 05:13 m4ini wrote: Btw: feel free to argue dumb shit like "apocalyptic mindsets", fact of the matter is though that people are scared. And that people arm themselves. And that's not Nazis arming themselves, they're long armed. It's normal people who are scared. Rightfully so. edit: what the fuck has a huffpost statistic about terror-victims to do with criminal immigrants - lol. Just lol. The point I'm making is a very simple one. People are hysteric, the perceived danger does not match reality, violence and crime in Europe are steady or trending downward as well, and are at a much lower level then they were twenty or thirty years ago. And after all peope were really quick to draw a connection between refugees and terrorism, so I thought it would be relevant to point out that domestic terrorism in Europe was a way bigger threat in Europe than foreign terrorism is right now. http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21582041-rich-world-seeing-less-and-less-crime-even-face-high-unemployment-and-economic We aren't living in more dangerous times, we simply have more cameras. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On January 17 2016 05:20 Nyxisto wrote: The point I'm making is a very simple one. People are hysteric, the perceived danger does not match reality, violence and crime in Europe are steady or trending downward as well, and are at a much lower level then they were twenty or thirty years ago. And after all peope were really quick to draw a connection between refugees and terrorism. http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21582041-rich-world-seeing-less-and-less-crime-even-face-high-unemployment-and-economic We aren't living in more dangerous times, we simply have more cameras. You might want to read up on actual statistics. Like for example organized crime. And if that's rising or falling. And then you want to look very careful at police statistics in regard to immigrants, and understand that they're "rigged" (as i already explained as well), in a way that suddenly a turk and a kurd are counted under "right wing extremism". But even without that, offenses (countrywide) rised from 32000 in 2013, to almost 55000 already in 2014. That's close to doubling the offenses. In a single year. Without the violent behaviour in refugee camps, because as i just explained, if a kurd attacks a turk (or a syrian), that is NOT counted as a crime commited by immigrants, but is counted as a crime commited by neo-nazis (Rechtsextremismus). And that's a fact. Even the statistic that you're most likely referring to (Braunschweig Kralenriede, commonly cited as prove that somehow criminal offenses didn't rise, even though it showed that pick pocketing and mugging tripled around their refugee camp) disagrees. | ||
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