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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
Israel is easy pickings because its influence in the world is minimal. Makes for an easy target for armchair idealists, and the fact that Israel needs trade with Europe more than Europe needs Israel is why EU could get away with doing this stuff - at least on an international level (domestic may be an issue based on the fact that Israel has some strong supporters in EU/US). On whether or not it's justified to sanction Israel: not really my idea of a good debate. | ||
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lord_nibbler
Germany591 Posts
Stop hyperventilating and imagining worst case scenarios. It is simply about whether a product from outside the international recognized borders of a country is allowed to be labeled as made in that country. If for example products from Bermuda or the Falklands would suddenly label themselves as 'made in the UK', it would raise people's eyebrows just as much... | ||
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nitram
Canada5412 Posts
On November 13 2015 15:31 LegalLord wrote: The international backlash, though perhaps not the popular one, of antagonizing a major economic and military player in the world such as Russia is significant. Truth is that EU nations are in a bit of a fragile position and a real embargo (compared to the rather half-hearted capital crunch over the past year and a half) would hurt both sides severely - not to mention the backlash from making real enemies out of strong nations. To see a more extreme example of this: how many nations still don't officially recognize the Armenian Genocide because they depend on good relations with Turkey? Israel is easy pickings because its influence in the world is minimal. Makes for an easy target for armchair idealists, and the fact that Israel needs trade with Europe more than Europe needs Israel is why EU could get away with doing this stuff - at least on an international level (domestic may be an issue based on the fact that Israel has some strong supporters in EU/US). On whether or not it's justified to sanction Israel: not really my idea of a good debate. Did you seriously just say that Israels influence on the world is minimal? Israel pretty much owns the US. Look at all these presidential candidates running to the Jewish billionaires for funds and promising to take out Assad. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On November 13 2015 21:58 nitram wrote: Did you seriously just say that Israels influence on the world is minimal? Israel pretty much owns the US. Look at all these presidential candidates running to the Jewish billionaires for funds and promising to take out Assad. Relative to a large nation with significant military and economic power, yes, it is a nation with minimal influence. The US has a large, active Jewish voter base for which Israel is a significant issue, so there's no surprise there. In Europe, the support is significantly weaker. The thing is that Israel is a highly dependent nation that only looks strong because its enemies are terribly behind the times in military and economic strength. On November 13 2015 15:59 lord_nibbler wrote: What are you talking about? Who is proposing sanctions? Stop hyperventilating and imagining worst case scenarios. It is simply about whether a product from outside the international recognized borders of a country is allowed to be labeled as made in that country. If for example products from Bermuda or the Falklands would suddenly label themselves as 'made in the UK', it would raise people's eyebrows just as much... The effect is the same. No one would even care about "Made in X" unless it was about picking and choosing which places you want to buy from, or to enforce petty disagreements on geopolitical borders. | ||
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RenSC2
United States1094 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/498368-shootings-and-casualties-in-central-paris | ||
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Maenander
Germany4926 Posts
It's not the influx of moderate Muslims that is a problem. But let's be clear, failed integration into our country and the lack of prospects for immigrants would create a breeding ground for terrorists, be they islamist or right wing. That's why we need to tread carefully. Ironically, Neo-Nazis and Islamists have a lot in common. They are mostly recruiting from disgruntled people discontent with the current state of the world (mostly their own life). The explicitly desired hate for people of different nationality/religion/whatever "responsible" is actually the allure. | ||
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Yuljan
2196 Posts
On November 14 2015 17:08 Maenander wrote: I hope this attack doesn't raise the tension in Germany, it's fodder for the right wing nuts ranting about refugees. It's not the influx of moderate Muslims that is a problem. But let's be clear, failed integration into our country and the lack of prospects for immigrants would create a breeding ground for terrorists, be they islamist or right wing. That's why we need to tread carefully. Ironically, Neo-Nazis and Islamists have a lot in common. They are mostly recruiting from disgruntled people discontent with the current state of the world (mostly their own life). The explicitly desired hate for people of different nationality/religion/whatever "responsible" is actually the allure. I sure hope this will raise the tensions and force a policy change. Germany is going full speed against a brick wall called civil war if this continues. Why does immigration only fail for muslims and not other immigrants? Moderate muslims are only moderate as long as they do not have any power. The koran is the word of god to any true believer and the extremist interpretation is widely accepted even among "moderate" muslims. They are just to busy with their own lives instead of caring much for religion. Over something starts going wrong they delve into the subject and voila in the best case we got a few more silent supporters of the terrorist groups. Surely thats is our own fault. Let's invite a few million more without any plans to show how compassionate we are as Merkel so nicely put. What could possibly go wrong? It's all worth it for the praise from others that refuse to look at a reality. Unfortantely unlike suggested in school the world isnt black and white and the government would do well to listen to tge right sometimes. Funnily enough the refusal to give any accessions to the right will lead to people going for the real neo nazis and that won't end with a nice let's close the borders and screen who we want and who we do not want. | ||
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Maenander
Germany4926 Posts
On November 14 2015 17:33 Yuljan wrote: I sure hope this will raise the tensions and force a policy change. Germany is going full speed against a brick wall called civil war if this continues. Why does immigration only fail for muslims and not other immigrants? Moderate muslims are only moderate as long as they do not have any power. The koran is the word of god to any true believer and the extremist interpretation is widely accepted even among "moderate" muslims. They are just to busy with their own lives instead of caring much for religion. Over something starts going wrong they delve into the subject and voila in the best case we got a few more silent supporters of the terrorist groups. Surely thats is our own fault. Let's invite a few million more without any plans to show how compassionate we are as Merkel so nicely put. What could possibly go wrong? It's all worth it for the praise from others that refuse to look at a reality. Unfortantely unlike suggested in school the world isnt black and white and the government would do well to listen to tge right sometimes. Funnily enough the refusal to give any accessions to the right will lead to people going for the real neo nazis and that won't end with a nice let's close the borders and screen who we want and who we do not want. The Turkish minority is actually pretty immune towards Islamism. Why? Because nationalism is at least as important to them as religion. People in Albania or Bosnia are not even close to declaring a theocracy either, majority Muslim or not. So no, the situation is not as clear cut as you portray it. The Catholics in Germany today are a far cry from the Catholics centuries ago. In medieval times, the pope was a very real political leader in direct competition with the Emperor. There is a reason Bismarck lead a "Kulturkampf" against the Catholics, he didn't feel like their loyalty lay with Germany in the 19th century (!). And as recent as a few decades ago Catholics who married a Protestant were shunned by the rest of their Catholic village. The bible is still the same, but Catholicism in Germany has changed. I am not a fan of religion either, having been raised religious and having experienced the (today comparably mild) brainwashing techniques first hand, but I don't see how you can lump together more than a billion people with very different lives and goals based on that one trait they didn't have much choice over. | ||
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Yuljan
2196 Posts
On November 14 2015 18:04 Maenander wrote: The Turkish minority is actually pretty immune towards Islamism. Why? Because nationalism is at least as important to them as religion. People in Albania or Bosnia are not even close to declaring a theocracy either, majority Muslim or not. So no, the situation is not as clear cut as you portray it. The Catholics in Germany today are a far cry from the Catholics centuries ago. In medieval times, the pope was a very real political leader in direct competition with the Emperor. There is a reason Bismarck lead a "Kulturkampf" against the Catholics, he didn't feel like their loyalty lay with Germany in the 19th century (!). And as recent as a few decades ago Catholics who married a Protestant were shunned by the rest of their Catholic village. The bible is still the same, but Catholicism in Germany has changed. I am not a fan of religion either, having been raised religious and having experienced the (today comparably mild) brainwashing techniques first hand, but I don't see how you can lump together more than a billion people with very different lives and goals based on that one trait they didn't have much choice over. I really fear for this country given that people like you seem to be the majority. This much fantasy and make wishing is baffling. Of course we are lucky that so far we got immigrants like turks who came from a secular country that albeit is currently turning into a muslim dictatorship ever so slowly (just revisited the country after staying their for a year during my studies). Luckily our turkish minority is even more conservative than Turkey itself with 60% voting for the islamist AKP. Funny thing is that the turks in istanbul were appalled about the current refugee policies and could not understand such stupidity. Still, even though we had this benefit 600 Germans are fighting for IS (these numbers seem to be at the low end of the estimates). Many of them having returned to Germany without any serious repercussions. And the good old comparison with catholicism. First of all. Why do we want to import a problem we dealt with hundreds of years ago? I am the first one who will support shutting down any catholic facility and banishing the religion from Germany but being shunned by the village is comparable to women getting stoned, maimed and acid in their face every day in muslim countries (and thanks to immigration in the West as well)? And the main reason why this comparison is bullshit. The bible is a collection of stories that are not taken as direct commands and can be ignored/interpreted as the pope/priests want. The koran was dictated to mohammed directly by God. The koran is the exact word of god. Thats why any translations are invalid and only the arabic version is the correct one. While the koran same as the bible is full contradictory information, there is a general rule which leads to the violent interpretation being the most prelavent among the muslim world: The newer verses take precedence over older ones. The newer ones being the expansion kill all infidels yadda yadda verses. But hey we can just pay the tax for christians and live happily in a new caliphate. | ||
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Maenander
Germany4926 Posts
On November 14 2015 20:22 Yuljan wrote: I really fear for this country given that people like you seem to be the majority. This much fantasy and make wishing is baffling. Of course we are lucky that so far we got immigrants like turks who came from a secular country that albeit is currently turning into a muslim dictatorship ever so slowly (just revisited the country after staying their for a year during my studies). Luckily our turkish minority is even more conservative than Turkey itself with 60% voting for the islamist AKP. Funny thing is that the turks in istanbul were appalled about the current refugee policies and could not understand such stupidity. Still, even though we had this benefit 600 Germans are fighting for IS (these numbers seem to be at the low end of the estimates). Many of them having returned to Germany without any serious repercussions. And the good old comparison with catholicism. First of all. Why do we want to import a problem we dealt with hundreds of years ago? I am the first one who will support shutting down any catholic facility and banishing the religion from Germany but being shunned by the village is comparable to women getting stoned, maimed and acid in their face every day in muslim countries (and thanks to immigration in the West as well)? And the main reason why this comparison is bullshit. The bible is a collection of stories that are not taken as direct commands and can be ignored/interpreted as the pope/priests want. The koran was dictated to mohammed directly by God. The koran is the exact word of god. Thats why any translations are invalid and only the arabic version is the correct one. While the koran same as the bible is full contradictory information, there is a general rule which leads to the violent interpretation being the most prelavent among the muslim world: The newer verses take precedence over older ones. The newer ones being the expansion kill all infidels yadda yadda verses. But hey we can just pay the tax for christians and live happily in a new caliphate. Claiming the caliphate is around the corner in Germany and calling other people delusional, I love it. 600 ISIS warriors are sure to do it, in your imagination. And no I am not tolerant against intolerant people: you are against a secular state => try your luck in Arabia you forbid your son/daughter to be with a person of different nationality => you are not welcome here you forbid your son/daughter to be with a person of a different faith => get out of this country you think western culture is perverted and offensive and feel the urge to kill people over it => just blow yourself up in private, thanks I don't know what refugees from Syria you met, but the programmer, the physician and the engineer didn't exactly give me a bad impression. Maybe I am biased because of this, but these are people wanting to have a new chance in life, and that shouldn't be spoiled because they were born into the "wrong" religion. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9330 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18401 Posts
On November 14 2015 21:49 Sent. wrote: Ok guys tell me where I'm wrong because I can't find a flaw in this: France has a big muslim population and has suffered from two big terrorist attacks in 2015 alone. Hungary doesn't have a big muslim population and never had a terrorism problem. The simpliest way to ensure that such attacks will never happen in Budapest is to disallow muslim immigration to Hungary. In other news, margerine causes divorces, science spending causes people to hang themselves, and marriages in Kentucky cause people to drown when falling out of fishing boats. http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations + Show Spoiler + If you didn't get the message, correlation != causation. In this case, it is far more likely that France is the target of Islamic terrorist acts because of its colonial past and the role it plays in the current M.E. politics than due to the Muslim immigrants (albeit a large amount of that is also due to its past colonies) | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On November 14 2015 17:08 Maenander wrote: I hope this attack doesn't raise the tension in Germany, it's fodder for the right wing nuts ranting about refugees. It's not the influx of moderate Muslims that is a problem. But let's be clear, failed integration into our country and the lack of prospects for immigrants would create a breeding ground for terrorists, be they islamist or right wing. That's why we need to tread carefully. Ironically, Neo-Nazis and Islamists have a lot in common. They are mostly recruiting from disgruntled people discontent with the current state of the world (mostly their own life). The explicitly desired hate for people of different nationality/religion/whatever "responsible" is actually the allure. Well, extreme political views, even when theorically opposite, have always shared many common points. This alone should show people why extremes are not the way to go. | ||
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Narw
Poland884 Posts
On November 14 2015 22:08 Acrofales wrote: In other news, margerine causes divorces, science spending causes people to hang themselves, and marriages in Kentucky cause people to drown when falling out of fishing boats. http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations + Show Spoiler + If you didn't get the message, correlation != causation. In this case, it is far more likely that France is the target of Islamic terrorist acts because of its colonial past and the role it plays in the current M.E. politics than due to the Muslim immigrants (albeit a large amount of that is also due to its past colonies)  How is your muslim gf doing? | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On November 14 2015 21:49 Sent. wrote: Ok guys tell me where I'm wrong because I can't find a flaw in this: France has a big muslim population and has suffered from two big terrorist attacks in 2015 alone. Hungary doesn't have a big muslim population and never had a terrorism problem. The simpliest way to ensure that such attacks will never happen in Budapest is to disallow muslim immigration to Hungary. You can't find a flaw in this because, with all due respect, that's not even a reasoning. You also have countries with a big Muslim population which didn't suffer from terrorism much (yes I'm looking at you, Southern Balkans). | ||
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Sent.
Poland9330 Posts
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On November 14 2015 22:45 Sent. wrote: I purposely used that simplification and I'm aware that there are better ways of dealing with terrorism. I'm also not trying to blame all muslims for those attacks. I'm looking to find a flaw in a "no muslims, no muslim terrorism" reasoning, regardless of how stupid it sounds. Please keep in mind I'm not calling for any expulsions or anything like that, I'm thinking about countries with little to no muslims like Switzerland. I guess in theory a country with no muslims would not suffer terrorist attacks as long as they're not leading [I by leading I mean truly leading, not following a coalition created by other countries] military or economical actions against terrorist groups. But then I think it would be terrorism organized from the outside with actions having strong, impressive media resonance, 11/09 style, rather than shootings which make the population really afraid but don't have a strong symbolic effect. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18401 Posts
I don't see her being a Muslim as her defining quality, but she is well. She's upset about the perpretration of violence in the name of the Islam, which she thoroughly condemns and hates (the violence and perpetrators, not the religion). And she naturally worries about the reaction that is bound to follow, and hopes it is channeled against ISIS and other violent groups, and not against Muslims in general. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18401 Posts
On November 14 2015 22:45 Sent. wrote: I purposely used that simplification and I'm aware that there are better ways of dealing with terrorism. I'm also not trying to blame all muslims for those attacks. I'm looking to find a flaw in a "no muslims, no muslim terrorism" reasoning, regardless of how stupid it sounds. Please keep in mind I'm not calling for any expulsions or anything like that, I'm thinking about countries with little to no muslims like Switzerland. Or other countries with a very low % Muslim population like the US of A! Oh. Wait. No. Okay, so how Norway? Shit. Well, at least there are frequent terrorist attacks in Uzbekistan with its 90% Islamic population, and Algeria is a complete mess too. D'oh! You see, you can cherrypick data to make a point for almost anything. But the world, and even statistics isn't as black and white as you are trying to make it. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On November 14 2015 22:45 Sent. wrote: I purposely used that simplification and I'm aware that there are better ways of dealing with terrorism. I'm also not trying to blame all muslims for those attacks. I'm looking to find a flaw in a "no muslims, no muslim terrorism" reasoning, regardless of how stupid it sounds. Please keep in mind I'm not calling for any expulsions or anything like that, I'm thinking about countries with little to no muslims like Switzerland. How about Malaysia or Indonesia? The latter is in fact the largest muslim-dominant country in the world, and violence there tends to be motivated by politics rather than religion. The former is actually quite peaceful, even though fundamentalist Islam is definitely on the rise there as well. | ||
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