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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
Turkey’s AK Party swept back into office in parliamentary elections, strengthening President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s 13-year grip on power after a divisive campaign scarred by violence.
The Islamist-rooted party that Erdogan founded took at least 49 percent of the vote, according to local media reports with more than 95 percent of ballots counted. Official news agency Anadolu said it’s guaranteed to regain the parliamentary majority it lost in elections five months ago.
The result would be a triumph for a leader whose dominance in the Middle East’s biggest economy has polarized Turks and antagonized many allies. Since the inconclusive June vote, Turkey has resumed its war with Kurdish separatists and suffered a wave of Islamic State attacks. The violence alarmed investors, yet it appears to have persuaded voters to seek stability in a return to single-party government.
“Erdogan’s emphasis on security and instability is paying off. And it goes to show how unreliable the pre-election polls are,” Anthony Skinner, a director with U.K.-based forecasting company Verisk Maplecroft. “So more polarization, confrontation and no end in sight to intervention by the president.”
Presidential Power
The AK Party is set to win a bigger share of the vote than any of the main local polls had foreseen. It increased its votes by 4 million to more than 23 million, according to Anadolu, and came close to replicating the landslide it won in 2011.
While Erdogan wasn’t up for re-election, he’s now better placed to rule the country as president, an office whose powers he’s sought to increase. Opposition parties campaigned against that plan, and also accuse Erdogan and his successor as premier and AK Party leader, Ahmet Davutoglu, of ratcheting up tensions with Kurdish militants in a bid to regain the lost majority.
The political turmoil in Turkey, spillover of violence from neighboring Syria and signs of a slowdown in the $720 billion economy have helped make the lira the world’s second-weakest major currency this year. The currency has rallied in recent weeks, though, along with bonds and stocks on growing expectations that Sunday’s vote would end the stalemate.
“Markets will likely appreciate a strong stable government,” Timothy Ash, a credit strategist at Nomura International Plc in London, said in an e-mailed note. “There will be concern over the lack of checks and balances over the next Erdogan administration -- inevitably, he will dominate the next government, even without formal executive powers. There will also be concern how the opposition will take this vote.”
Kurdish Clashes
The secular Republican People’s Party performed about the same as in the June election, according to the early count. The other two parties in parliament, the nationalist MHP and the Kurdish HDP, were both projected to lose seats.
The Kurds have been subjected to a near-blackout in local media and their ties to armed separatists have been repeatedly highlighted in the AK Party campaign. The party, which won a breakthrough in June with 13 percent of the vote, said the reported results didn’t match its own count.
Erdogan has backed constitutional changes that would make him an executive president, though the AK Party probably won’t win enough seats to formalize such plans. But critics say he’s already adopting that role by stealth, breaking with convention by chairing cabinet meetings in place of the prime minister and continuing to exert control over the party he founded.
Erdogan and Davutoglu have backed rebels battling to oust President Bashar al-Assad in Syria, and clashed with the U.S. and European Union by refusing to support Kurdish fighters taking on Islamic State. At home, their party has presided over economic growth averaging about 5 percent, though the pace has slowed in recent years.
www.bloomberg.com
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On November 02 2015 04:04 WhiteDog wrote:
the problem is not that national interest dominate european insterests in the current europe (like kizwach argue)
It's quite impressive that you're still mischaracterizing my position at this point; I have not made that argument. I suppose that when your position is as nuanced as "nothing good comes out of europe [sic], whatever the subject may be", paying attention to the detail of what others are saying is too much to ask. With regards to the contents of your new post, I refer you to the previous message I posted.
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On November 02 2015 05:16 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2015 04:04 WhiteDog wrote:
the problem is not that national interest dominate european insterests in the current europe (like kizwach argue) It's quite impressive that you're still mischaracterizing my position at this point; I have not made that argument. I suppose that when your position is as nuanced as "nothing good comes out of europe [sic], whatever the subject may be", paying attention to the detail of what others are saying is too much to ask. With regards to the contents of your new post, I refer you to the previous message I posted.
Don't be so frustrated just because you misrepresent some argument, go in crusade against them, just to find out that you were arguing against things that were not said since the beginning.
And everybody understood that europe means european institutions in this specific comment. It's not a fault and it does not need any clarification.
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On November 02 2015 05:20 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2015 05:16 kwizach wrote:On November 02 2015 04:04 WhiteDog wrote:
the problem is not that national interest dominate european insterests in the current europe (like kizwach argue) It's quite impressive that you're still mischaracterizing my position at this point; I have not made that argument. I suppose that when your position is as nuanced as "nothing good comes out of europe [sic], whatever the subject may be", paying attention to the detail of what others are saying is too much to ask. With regards to the contents of your new post, I refer you to the previous message I posted. Don't be so frustrated just because you misrepresent some argument, go in crusade against them, just to find out that you were arguing against things that were not said since the beginning.
Given that none of that is true, I'm not sure why I would be frustrated.
edit: I'm not surprised that you're still mischaracterizing what I said about your use of the term "failure" in your message below ,-) I did not agree with what you meant with the term, as I explained several times.
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WhiteDog there is no shame in admitting one's mistakes once in a while. It is actually quite healthy and makes you look a lot less arrogant.
This particular vote was unfortunately a very bad example for your argumentation. Get over it. We all make errors from time to time. Writing walls of text does nothing for you.
This is not the Republican primary here, you do not get more approval by sticking to your guns' at all costs...
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On November 02 2015 08:22 lord_nibbler wrote:
WhiteDog there is no shame in admitting one's mistakes once in a while. It is actually quite healthy and makes you look a lot less arrogant.
This particular vote was unfortunately a very bad example for your argumentation. Get over it. We all make errors from time to time. Writing walls of text does nothing for you.
This is not the Republican primary here, you do not get more approval by sticking to your guns' at all costs...
Funny coming from a german poster, the kind of poster that go apeshit everytime I criticize their country. But you're right, it's better to actually respond to arguments I didn't make, like kizwach, rather than discussing what is being said. Me being arrogant and me being wrong are two different things, and in this specific exchange, I was none of that.
Just because one poster lack basic logic, nitpick a part of a comment I made and make arguments that basically defeat theirselves (since he himself agreed that it is a failure of european institutions, thus justifying my first comment...),somehow I'm wrong. Good job.
Just to clarify, do you actually believe that the fact that the european commission basically knew about the volkswagen fraud for the last 2 years is not a failure ?
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On November 02 2015 08:56 WhiteDog wrote:Just to clarify, do you actually believe that the fact that the european commission basically knew about the volkswagen fraud for the last 2 years is not a failure ?
Of course it is a failure, but it is the same failure all the national governments made as well. Selective blame allocation still does not make a good argument for you, even when we (rather idiotically) focus solely on your 'did they knew it' issue.
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On November 02 2015 08:56 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2015 08:22 lord_nibbler wrote:
WhiteDog there is no shame in admitting one's mistakes once in a while. It is actually quite healthy and makes you look a lot less arrogant.
This particular vote was unfortunately a very bad example for your argumentation. Get over it. We all make errors from time to time. Writing walls of text does nothing for you.
This is not the Republican primary here, you do not get more approval by sticking to your guns' at all costs... Funny coming from a german poster, the kind of poster that go apeshit everytime I criticize their country. But you're right, it's better to actually respond to arguments I didn't make, like kizwach, rather than discussing what is being said. Me being arrogant and me being wrong are two different things, and in this specific exchange, I was none of that. Just because one poster lack basic logic, nitpick a part of a comment I made and make arguments that basically defeat theirselves (since he himself agreed that it is a failure of european institutions, thus justifying my first comment...),somehow I'm wrong. Good job. Just to clarify, do you actually believe that the fact that the european commission basically knew about the volkswagen fraud for the last 2 years is not a failure ?
The lack of self-awareness in this post is simultaneously amusing and horrifying.
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On November 02 2015 09:35 lord_nibbler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2015 08:56 WhiteDog wrote:Just to clarify, do you actually believe that the fact that the european commission basically knew about the volkswagen fraud for the last 2 years is not a failure ? Of course it is a failure, but it is the same failure all the national governments made as well. Selective blame allocation still does not make a good argument for you, even when we (rather idiotically) focus solely on your 'did they knew it' issue.
And where did I claim that national government are perfect and innocent ?
On November 02 2015 09:47 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2015 08:56 WhiteDog wrote:On November 02 2015 08:22 lord_nibbler wrote:
WhiteDog there is no shame in admitting one's mistakes once in a while. It is actually quite healthy and makes you look a lot less arrogant.
This particular vote was unfortunately a very bad example for your argumentation. Get over it. We all make errors from time to time. Writing walls of text does nothing for you.
This is not the Republican primary here, you do not get more approval by sticking to your guns' at all costs... Funny coming from a german poster, the kind of poster that go apeshit everytime I criticize their country. But you're right, it's better to actually respond to arguments I didn't make, like kizwach, rather than discussing what is being said. Me being arrogant and me being wrong are two different things, and in this specific exchange, I was none of that. Just because one poster lack basic logic, nitpick a part of a comment I made and make arguments that basically defeat theirselves (since he himself agreed that it is a failure of european institutions, thus justifying my first comment...),somehow I'm wrong. Good job. Just to clarify, do you actually believe that the fact that the european commission basically knew about the volkswagen fraud for the last 2 years is not a failure ? The lack of self-awareness in this post is simultaneously amusing and horrifying.
Explain me how, I'm willing to listen.
edit: I'm not surprised that you're still mischaracterizing what I said about your use of the term "failure" in your message below ,-) I did not agree with what you meant with the term, as I explained several times.
Failure mean failure, for everybody : a condition or a fact of not achieving the desired ends (here, effectively regulating the car industry).
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On November 02 2015 09:50 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +edit: I'm not surprised that you're still mischaracterizing what I said about your use of the term "failure" in your message below ,-) I did not agree with what you meant with the term, as I explained several times. Failure mean failure, for everybody : a condition or a fact of not achieving the desired ends (here, effectively regulating the car industry).
I did not agree with your use of "failure" to put the blame for the vote on EU institutions in the manner that you did. I made that point clear several times. If you want to start arguing with other posters be my guest, but don't mischaracterize what I said, or pretend I was discussing anything else that this specific vote (which is in itself a separate issue from what the Commission knew about Volkswagen).
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On November 02 2015 10:15 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2015 09:50 WhiteDog wrote:edit: I'm not surprised that you're still mischaracterizing what I said about your use of the term "failure" in your message below ,-) I did not agree with what you meant with the term, as I explained several times. Failure mean failure, for everybody : a condition or a fact of not achieving the desired ends (here, effectively regulating the car industry). I did not agree with your use of "failure" to put the blame for the vote on EU institutions in the manner that you did. I made that point clear several times. If you want to start arguing with other posters be my guest, but don't mischaracterize what I said, or pretend I was discussing anything else that this specific vote (which is in itself a separate issue from what the Commission knew about Volkswagen).
I responded to that part of your "arguments" a few time already.
1) I never put the blame for the vote on EU institutions, in any of my posts, I just linked two facts and said it was a failure ;
2) you argue that it is a failure "in the sense that the europeans institutions did not have enough authority over the member states" : if you agree that the solution is to change european institutions (by giving them more authority) then it logically mean that you agree that one way to describe the problem (and the source of the failure) is indeed that european institutions as they are today have not enough authority. So you basically agreed with me (aside for the fact that another solution would be to let already institutionalized counter powers in nations do their jobs), you just refuse to understand and embrace the logic of your own arguments.
3) you are the one who separated the fact that they knew about volkswagen, while I quoted the two article in the same post : to me both are an exemple of how the european institutions are unable to change anything for the better.
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They're two separate issues. I addressed the vote issue because that specific example was not a good example to support your broader point against EU institutions, as I explained at length. We used "failure" to ascribe different types of responsibility. Anyway, we're running in circles and you're the one who stopped responding to my points on the last page, so like I said I'm happy to agree to disagree since I've made my point pretty clearly. If you want to keep debating the issue with other posters be my guest, however don't pretend in your responses to them that my position "justified" your initial comment and the point behind it.
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On November 02 2015 11:03 kwizach wrote:
We used "failure" to ascribe different types of responsibility.
It has nothing to do with responsability, and I never used the term, but about efficiency. It is not the european institutions that are responsible for the volkswagen fiasco, but they were inefficient in enforcing preexisting regulation despite knowing about the fraud, and it is not the european institutions that are responsible for the vote, but they are inefficient into reforming the regulation in a positive manner.
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You're back to discussing issues irrelevant to my response to you (knowledge of the fraud and the enforcement of regulations).
edit: now you've edited your post to include "reforming the regulation". My point still stands with regards to how the vote issue relates to your point about EU institutions.
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On November 02 2015 11:31 kwizach wrote:
You're back to discussing issues irrelevant to my response to you (knowledge of the fraud and the enforcement of regulations).
"It is not the european institutions that are responsible for the volkswagen fiasco, but they were inefficient in enforcing preexisting regulation despite knowing about the fraud, and it is not the european institutions that are responsible for the vote, but they are inefficient into reforming the regulation in a positive manner."
My point is that the two situation are the same in regard to EU institution failure to change anything for the better. I never talked about responsability, and in both cases the european institutions are not responsible.
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On November 02 2015 11:35 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2015 11:31 kwizach wrote:
You're back to discussing issues irrelevant to my response to you (knowledge of the fraud and the enforcement of regulations). "It is not the european institutions that are responsible for the volkswagen fiasco, but they were inefficient in enforcing preexisting regulation despite knowing about the fraud, and it is not the european institutions that are responsible for the vote, but they are inefficient into reforming the regulation in a positive manner." My point is that the two situation are the same.
You edited your post to add the second part of the sentence which you just bolded, as I just pointed out in my own edit. Like I said, my point still stands with regards to how the vote issue relates to your point about EU institutions.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On November 01 2015 23:52 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2015 22:43 kwizach wrote:On October 31 2015 22:47 WhiteDog wrote:European countries have unexpectedly granted carmakers additional leeway to break EU rules on harmful emissions, confounding expectations that they would agree to a tight framework in the wake of the Volkswagen scandal.
In a vote in Brussels on Wednesday, the 28 member states watered down proposals for a new testing framework that would crack down on the techniques used by carmakers to doctor their emissions’ results in tests. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/96092c6c-7d90-11e5-a1fe-567b37f80b64.htmlWho's surprised anymore ? The European Union is a complete failure whatever the subject may be. How exactly is the European Union responsible when it's the national governments which lobbied and voted in favor of the measure, with only The Netherlands voting against it? The EU Commission favors stricter rules. It's always the same excuses over and over again : it's not the eu but the nations and blablabla, we need more eu blablabla. The fact that european high officials knew about the volkwagen scandal two years ago and still did nothing, even just for communication, is a failure. The fact that lobbying is so easy in europe is a scandal. The fact that regulation at the european level is almost always liberal and in favor of the powerful firms against things like health or working conditions is a disaster. You can cut it and argue that it is the government, the point is that the more the european commission is given power the more those kind of situations arose. Don't tell me people like Juncker (who's economic strategy in luxemburg was based around sucking the fiscal basis of other european countries) would actually do what's necessary in europe if they had more power to impose their will on nations.
would point to strategic preferential treatment of a major member economy, so yes still more eu needed
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On November 02 2015 11:36 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2015 11:35 WhiteDog wrote:On November 02 2015 11:31 kwizach wrote:
You're back to discussing issues irrelevant to my response to you (knowledge of the fraud and the enforcement of regulations). "It is not the european institutions that are responsible for the volkswagen fiasco, but they were inefficient in enforcing preexisting regulation despite knowing about the fraud, and it is not the european institutions that are responsible for the vote, but they are inefficient into reforming the regulation in a positive manner." My point is that the two situation are the same. You edited your post to add the second part of the sentence which you just bolded, as I just pointed out in my own edit. Like I said, my point still stands with regards to how the vote issue relates to your point about EU institutions.
Your point never stood, since I never said what you claim I was : I never said that the european union was responsible for the vote specifically, I quoted two article that enlightened the inability of europe to do anything positive on any subject and said that it was a failure, a lack of success, an inability of those institutions to do what they are supposed to.
You seems to always put aside logic for the underlying ideology you happen to cherrish - as already proven by previous comments. Here you overreacted to the term failure - and instantly believed I was saying europe is responsible for every problem on earth (while its main problem is not so much that it create problems, that are in fact mainly created by people in conflict over various ressources, but that it is institutionally impotent to face problems and treat them in a democratic manner) - because of your own inability to think logically about the european institutions.
On November 02 2015 11:45 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2015 23:52 WhiteDog wrote:On November 01 2015 22:43 kwizach wrote:On October 31 2015 22:47 WhiteDog wrote:European countries have unexpectedly granted carmakers additional leeway to break EU rules on harmful emissions, confounding expectations that they would agree to a tight framework in the wake of the Volkswagen scandal.
In a vote in Brussels on Wednesday, the 28 member states watered down proposals for a new testing framework that would crack down on the techniques used by carmakers to doctor their emissions’ results in tests. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/96092c6c-7d90-11e5-a1fe-567b37f80b64.htmlWho's surprised anymore ? The European Union is a complete failure whatever the subject may be. How exactly is the European Union responsible when it's the national governments which lobbied and voted in favor of the measure, with only The Netherlands voting against it? The EU Commission favors stricter rules. It's always the same excuses over and over again : it's not the eu but the nations and blablabla, we need more eu blablabla. The fact that european high officials knew about the volkwagen scandal two years ago and still did nothing, even just for communication, is a failure. The fact that lobbying is so easy in europe is a scandal. The fact that regulation at the european level is almost always liberal and in favor of the powerful firms against things like health or working conditions is a disaster. You can cut it and argue that it is the government, the point is that the more the european commission is given power the more those kind of situations arose. Don't tell me people like Juncker (who's economic strategy in luxemburg was based around sucking the fiscal basis of other european countries) would actually do what's necessary in europe if they had more power to impose their will on nations. would point to strategic preferential treatment of a major member economy, so yes still more eu needed
Or more particularism - like the right for countries to sanction luxemburg for its fiscal policy through a tariff for exemple.
But how do you exactly can, today, legitimize "more europe" ? On what ground ?
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On November 02 2015 11:53 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2015 11:36 kwizach wrote:On November 02 2015 11:35 WhiteDog wrote:On November 02 2015 11:31 kwizach wrote:
You're back to discussing issues irrelevant to my response to you (knowledge of the fraud and the enforcement of regulations). "It is not the european institutions that are responsible for the volkswagen fiasco, but they were inefficient in enforcing preexisting regulation despite knowing about the fraud, and it is not the european institutions that are responsible for the vote, but they are inefficient into reforming the regulation in a positive manner." My point is that the two situation are the same. You edited your post to add the second part of the sentence which you just bolded, as I just pointed out in my own edit. Like I said, my point still stands with regards to how the vote issue relates to your point about EU institutions. Your point never stood, since I never said what you claim I was : I never said that the european union was responsible for the vote specifically, I quoted two article that enlightened the inability of europe to do anything positive on any subject and said that it was a failure, a lack of success, an inability of those institutions to do what they are supposed to. You seems to always put aside logic for the underlying ideology you happen to cherrish - as already proven by previous comments. Here you overreacted to the term failure - and instantly believed I was saying europe is responsible for every problem on earth (while its main problem is not so much that it create problems, that are in fact mainly created by people in conflict over various ressources, but that it is institutionally impotent to face problems and treat them in a democratic manner) - because of your own inability to think logically about the european institutions.
I've addressed the contents of this paragraph several times over, so I'll direct you to my previous posts about the EU's authority on the issue touched upon by the vote. It's rich to see the guy whose point is that "nothing good comes out of europe [sic], whatever the subject may be" lecturing others about nuanced analysis, though.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On November 02 2015 11:53 WhiteDog wrote:
But how do you exactly can, today, legitimize "more europe" ? On what ground ?
rise of nationalism for one.
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EPT
