EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 241
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
At this point, legitimate grievances or not, the Greek govt hasn't shown that it is worthy of all that much credibility. | ||
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Alcathous
Netherlands219 Posts
Anyway, time for Golden Dawn; the fascists, the biker gangs and the murderers to be voted into office now. Let's see if Merkel really still prefers them when she really gets to speak with them. Unless Tsipras steps down for Varoufakis. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On August 21 2015 05:10 Alcathous wrote: Well they don't have a choice, do they. Anyway, time for Golden Dawn; the fascists, the biker gangs and the murderers to be voted into office now. Let's see if Merkel really still prefers them when she really gets to speak with them. Unless Tsipras steps down for Varoufakis. How can a Facist party successfully differentiate it self given the Greek economy? Its already cronyist with heavy government direction of the (limited)private capital. Golden dawn isn't even facist, they are just straight racist/nationalist. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 21 2015 05:20 cLutZ wrote: How can a Facist party successfully differentiate it self given the Greek economy? Its already cronyist with heavy government direction of the (limited)private capital. Golden dawn isn't even facist, they are just straight racist/nationalist. They will get there. Don't worry. Its the natural progression of those groups on their way to power. And oh god, that better not happen. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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phantomlancer23
733 Posts
I hope he ll pay for his high treason and i ll be happy to see him in a coffin soon. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9325 Posts
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
- a humanitarian crisis because of their economy - an economic crisis because of decades of democratically approved clientelism and overspending - a migration crisis which they can't handle because of the above two reasons Yet somehow Tsipras thought it would be a good idea to potentially, add "political crisis" to that list as well, in addition to worsening the above three. How anyone is still taking that country seriously at this point is beyond me. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
I'm actually really sorry now for the greeks, because while the previous government did undeniably do mistakes, this one fucked you majorly. And they're not even stopping. | ||
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Alcathous
Netherlands219 Posts
On August 21 2015 18:24 m4ini wrote: Not to forget that new elections certainly will help to get the investors on board that he so desperartely wanted. I bet there are already queues forming, because another polit-stunt is exactly what they were waiting for. I'm actually really sorry now for the greeks, because while the previous government did undeniably do mistakes, this one fucked you majorly. And they're not even stopping. There will be no investments in Greece as long as Greece is a zombie nation. And it will be until Merkel is replaced and debt restructuring has taken place. I don't think it was a mistake to not carry out Varoufakis plan. It was just so risky. Greece was in no position to fire back in an economic war. They underestimated how reckless Merkel would be willing to be. Europe decided to start the total destruction of the Greek economy until Tsipras gave them a blank cheque. Sun Tsu said that you should only fight in a war if you know for sure you can win it. Greece couldn't be sure that in an economic war, they would come out on top. To say that Greece should have obviously gone ahead and introduce a parallel rogue Greek Euro, and hijack the Greek central bank (oh the irony), that's kind of ignorant. Varoufakis is even facing criminal investigation for even putting plan b on paper. So I understand very much Tsipras decision to accept the deal, buy time. When Merkel is gone, they can again try to restructure. That it will then be more expensive to the German taxpayer, and more importantly the taxpayers of countries that are actually poorer than Greece, well that's not really something Tsipras can worry about. No one knew before the elections Syriza won that the truth was that Greece would either be a client state within the Euro, or had to leave the Euro. Everyone assumed that there was a role for Greece as a healthy and free country within the Eurozone. That this turned out to be an illusion, no one could know. You can't blame anyone for that, except maybe Merkel. In the end what Greece needs are investors and a modern economic infrastructure. The second one many people talk about. In Greece, it isn't even registered digitally who owes which property. What they desperately need to do is fire all the old conservative government officials( in other words, early retirement) and hire all those dynamic talented young people whose lives are being either ruined or forced to be lived outside of Greece. All this costs money. Not a lot. Not a fraction of what is being evaporated by bailing out the banks first, tricking their own voters second. But you can't make Greece do this by cutting government spending. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22490 Posts
However. When viewed in the bigger picture its a horrible choice. What are the elections going to be campaigned on? The EU deal yet again. The terms combined with non-existent finances means that a party willing to follow the deal has very little room to maneuver. You wont have 1 side calling for more education and another for less taxes on industry or whatever. There is no room for that. Its either Yes or No again. And if they again vote No I hope our politicians finally get it into their thick skulls to get rid of them. | ||
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Alcathous
Netherlands219 Posts
Because any other way, following the Greek constitution, it is all a farce, I agree. But they can't just suspend the constitution for as long as they in debt. They have to follow it, even if the freedoms the constitution claim to protect aren't there anymore. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22490 Posts
On August 21 2015 19:13 Alcathous wrote: No one knew before the elections Syriza won that the truth was that Greece would either be a client state within the Euro, or had to leave the Euro. Everyone assumed that there was a role for Greece as a healthy and free country within the Eurozone. That this turned out to be an illusion, no one could know. You can't blame anyone for that, except maybe Merkel. yeah... its not like the previous deal existed. You know, the one that Tsipras threw in the shredder. Yeah no one could have seen the EU's position on this.... As for things being better when Merkel is gone? Think again. This is not just the voice of Merkel. Its the voice of the people of Europe. They are tired of Greece BS and don't want to waste another cent on them, waiting for another leader isnt going to get Greece another deal. Its going to get them an Exit because Merkel's desire to keep the EU intact is all that kept Greece is now. | ||
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Alcathous
Netherlands219 Posts
The Merkel illusion can't be sustained indefinitely. At some point, reality will catch up and it will all backfire. Blaming Europe for the mistakes of their own domestic government is as old as Europe and this time, Europe may indeed not survive. So far, Merkel's chancellorship has been the ultimate free lunch. What has she really achieved in all these years? She got a healthy and reformed economy from Schreuder and Fischer; has she really added anything to that? The only thing memorable about her so far is that she has headed Europe for as long as this crisis has been unfolding. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6304 Posts
On August 21 2015 13:23 maartendq wrote: So let me me get this straight. Greece is now suffering from the following crises: - a humanitarian crisis because of their economy - an economic crisis because of decades of democratically approved clientelism and overspending - a migration crisis which they can't handle because of the above two reasons Yet somehow Tsipras thought it would be a good idea to potentially, add "political crisis" to that list as well, in addition to worsening the above three. How anyone is still taking that country seriously at this point is beyond me. The political crisis would've happened anyway. The leftist platform didn't support Tsipras anymore and the opposition parties only supported him because they wold've had to leave the eurozone otherwise. I think its the right move from Tsipras. If it's gonna happen anyway better do it fast and get it over with. He's still pretty popular so he might just win the election again without the rebels in the parliament. | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
Grexit within 6 months. Or does anyone think pro Europe partys will win the election? First the referendum,and now in the end still resign. Maybe it was the only option but there where hopes that tsipras would stay in power and keep it together somehow to implement the agreement in the coming years. Its an unworkable situation now and the agreement that there was can be considerd void. Noone knows what next government will be and what it will do but the prospects are not to bright for the pro euro camp I think. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18399 Posts
On August 21 2015 22:14 Rassy wrote: Tsipras resigns,well that's it then. Grexit within 6 months. Or does anyone think pro Europe partys will win the election? First the referendum,and now in the end still resign. Maybe it was the only option but there where hopes that tsipras would stay in power and keep it together somehow to implement the agreement in the coming years. Its an unworkable situation now and the agreement that there was can be considerd void. Noone knows what next government will be and what it will do but the prospects are not to bright for the pro euro camp I think. Well, now that Tsipras's Syriza is a pro-Europe party, he might just form a coalition with New Democracy (currently, the opposition, but also supports the reforms). Between those two parties, they could probably get a majority. That would, imho, be the best outcome for everybody involved. It's still a delay of a month in the implementation of the new policy, and the troika won't be happy with that, but the delay is inevitable now in any case, and at least the deal won't need renegotiating... again. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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