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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
EU is always a loss for each country, a loss of Freedom, an economic loss.
Like a comment in a german newspaper said: An affectionate partnership turned into a violent marriage.
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On July 13 2015 20:32 unsaeglich wrote:
EU is always a loss for each country, a loss of Freedom, an economic loss.
Like a comment in a german newspaper said: An affectionate partnership turned into a violent marriage.
The Benelux and other smaller countries would beg to differ on the EU being a disadvantage to them.
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On July 13 2015 20:14 Kenpark wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2015 18:41 WhiteDog wrote:On July 13 2015 17:23 unsaeglich wrote:On July 13 2015 10:10 c0ldfusion wrote:On July 13 2015 09:34 gsgfdf wrote:On July 13 2015 09:15 nunez wrote:The Alternative to Austerity
... abridged version of the statement submitted by the Left Platform at today’s plenary meeting of Syriza’s parliamentary group ...
The government must declare to the “institutions” and to proclaim to the Greek people that, even at the last moment, without a positive compromise reflected in a program that will end austerity, provide sufficient liquidity to economy, lead to economic recovery, and include major writing-off of the debt, it is ready to follow an alternative progressive path which puts into question the presence of our country in the eurozone, while interrupting debt repayment.
In order to confront the pressures and unacceptable demands of the creditors, the process that could lead Greece out of the eurozone is a serious and complex enterprise, which should have been systematically prepared by the government and by Syriza. However, due to the tragic blockages that prevailed both in government and in the party, this has not been achieved.
Nevertheless, even now the government can and must respond to the blackmail of the “institutions” by posing the following alternative: either a program without any further austerity, providing liquidity, and leading to debt cancellation, or exit from the euro and default on the repayment of an unjust and unsustainable debt.
... srctranslation via jacobinmag, couple of days old, but wasn't posted. very curious to what the plans for an eventual transition, provided they have been, and are being made, look like wrt social control and emergency currency system, and how this would actually play out. The problem is there is no plan. What you have linked is the opinion of a minority in Syriza, a vocal one but still a minority. The opposition parties that have already voted for austerity in the past accused Syriza that they had a plan to return to drachma from the start, so that oligarchs supporting Syriza can profit. The problem actually is that they didn't have a plan for that. They were bluffing, expecting the creditors to back down first, for them to not be as cruel as they are. I also believe that they thought they had more allies among the south, unable to realise how powerless anyone other than France and Germany actually is. Most of what has transpired these 6 months is an act of balance, Syriza trying not to betray the people that voted them in while getting a deal with the Europeans. At least France is vocally supporting Greece through all this. 1. Germany supported Greece much more than France. 2. Since Germany is the major supporter of Greece, it's in Germanies main goal to create an efficient economy in Greece. the main problem is the people in Greece voted for a party that undone the advance that was made by the earlier parties. And furthermore insult Germans personally in a bad manner, which makes it difficult for Germans to "lend" (throw away) them their money. Sadly the people of Germany were never asked if THEY wanted to be in the EU anymore. Because there are many in Germany who would want to have their own currency and not be forced into slavery for silly Greeks for generations to come. lol German support Greece more than France ? The first plan that was proposed was basically written with french help, as Hollande quietly sent some high official to Tsipras. Made many french economists laugh as even the handwritting was specific of french "Enarques". Hollande also said many times that the plan proposed was a good plan. Meanwhile, Germany is crushing Greece. The Eurozone is dead for good now, just wait for any unstability that touch either Italy or Spain. How much should countries suffer for an artifact such as the euro ? And I don't understand the Greeks at all, they are an essential element to NATO and to the US, just ask the US for some printing power. The US have never been that selfish - compared to the German I mean. the main problem is the people in Greece voted for a party that undone the advance that was made by the earlier parties. And furthermore insult Germans personally in a bad manner, which makes it difficult for Germans to "lend" (throw away) them their money. Insult Germans ? Is it real ? The Greek have done everything that was wanted from them in the last 5 years, and the north of the eurozone are asking for more. It's basically like asking a man already on his knees to kiss your feet. What's more insulting, this or the fact that the man want to say no ? You cant be serious about countries "suffering" from the Euro. It speaks volumes that the majority of Greece still wants to stay in the Euro despite the situation they are in. People seem to forget what kind of country Greece was before they got in the Euro.
You cannot ignore the fear mongering that's been constantly on the news about the consequencies of a Grexit. A news anchor actually said that west Thrake will be invaded like Ukraine if we leave the European Union.
Tsipras has taken back EVERYTHING he said. They are even gonna reinstitute the humiliating inspecting of the past years. Greeks are in favor of Euro because they still have things to lose. Soon the percentage that simply doesn't care one way or another will be a majority.
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Well is a done deal now, and I hope this time we can come out stronger.
I don't think it will though, I bet the policies from EU/EC will have some big changes in the next couple of years. UK is probably going to isolate themselves more to EU, French and German will be planning some real backup plans now for the same shit to happen again in 3 years time.
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On July 13 2015 20:10 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2015 20:08 maartendq wrote:On July 13 2015 19:57 WhiteDog wrote:On July 13 2015 19:42 warding wrote:
I don't understand the argument about the future of the Eurozone. Isn't it more likely now that other countries will be more fiscally responsible than it was before? You think you can teach something to a country with a spank ? Everything they're doing is to increase the hate against Germans and also destroying the dream of Europe that is the only thing that let people accept what Europe has become in reality. Jack Lew, the US secretary of treasure, said that the europeans were bunch of "amateur". He is totally right. They're basically refusing to restructure a debt that represent 3 % of the eurozone... They're putting everything in jeopardy for a bunch of billions. What happens when any exogene shock, like a stock crisis in china for exemple, hit europe ? You just can't pay back without growth, and growth will not happen. Any intelligent trader is already betting on the end of the euro, and any intelligent country will now prepare a painless way out of it. One thing I've been wondering lately: how do you let Greece grow? Sure they've got tourism and shipping, but those aren't nearly enough to bring them were they need to be. On top of that the economy it does have is anything but export-oriented, while it imports a significant number of goods. They don't have shipping anymore, it's been sold. Greece is dead weight, drenched of everything it had to offer - which is not much let's be clear about it, it never was a huge economy to begin with. From the very marxist Financial Times Show nested quote +Greece’s brutal creditors have demolished the eurozone project
A few things that many of us took for granted, and that some of us believed in, ended in a single weekend. By forcing Alexis Tsipras into a humiliating defeat, Greece’s creditors have done a lot more than bring about regime change in Greece or endanger its relations with the eurozone. They destroyed the eurozone as we know it. They demolished the idea of a monetary union as a step towards a democratic political union and reverted to the nationalist European power struggles of the 19th and early 20th century. They demoted the eurozone into a toxic fixed exchange-rate system, with a shared single currency, run in the interests of Germany, held together by the threat of absolute destitution for those who challenge the prevailing order. The best thing that can be said of the weekend is the brutal honesty of those perpetrating this regime change.
But it was not just the brutality that stood out, nor even the total capitulation of Greece. The material shift is that Germany has formally proposed an exit mechanism. On Saturday, Wolfgang Schäuble, finance minister, insisted on a time-limited exit — a “timeout” as he called it. I have heard quite a few crazy proposals in my time, and this one is right up there. A member state pushed for the expulsion of another. This was the real coup over the weekend:regime change in the eurozone.
The fact that a formal Grexit may have been avoided for the moment is immaterial. Grexit will be back on the table when you have the slightest political accident — and there are still many things that could go wrong, both in Greece and in other eurozone parliaments. Any other country that in future might challenge German economic orthodoxy will face similar problems.
This brings us back to a more toxic version of the old exchange-rate mechanism of the 1990s that left countries trapped in a system run primarily for the benefit of Germany, which led to the exit of the English pound and the temporary departure of the Italian lira. What was left was a coalition of countries willing to adjust their economies to Germany’s. Britain had to leave because it was not.
What should the Greeks do now? Forget for a moment the economic debate of the last few months, over issues such as the impact of austerity or economic reforms on growth, and ask yourself this simple question: do you really think that an economic reform programme, for which a government has no political mandate, which has been explicitly rejected in a referendum, that has been forced through by sheer political blackmail, can conceivably work?
The implications for the rest of the eurozone are at least as troubling. We will soon be asking ourselves whether this new eurozone, in which the strong push around the weak, can be sustainable. Previously, the strongest argument against any forecasts of break-up has been the strong political commitment of all its members. If you ask Italians why they are in the eurozone, few have ever pointed to the economic benefits. They wanted to be part of the most ambitious project of European integration undertaken so far.
But if you take away the political aspiration, you may end up with a different judgment. From a pure economic point of view, we know that the euro has worked well for Germany. It worked moderately well for The Netherlands and Austria, although it produced quite a degree of financial instability in both.
But for Italy, it has been an unmitigated economic disaster. The country has seen virtually no productivity growth since the start of the euro in 1999. If you want to blame the lack of structural reforms, then you have to explain how Italy managed decent growth rates before 1999. Can we be sure that a majority of Italians will support the single currency in three years' time?
The euro has not worked out for Finland either. While the country is considered the world champion of structural reforms, its economy has slumped ever since Nokia lost the plot as the world’s erstwhile premier mobile phone maker. France has performed relatively well during the euro’s early years But it, too, is now running persistent current account deficits. It is not only Greece where the euro is not optimal.
Once you strip the eurozone of any ambitions for a political and economic union, it changes into a utilitarian project in which member states will coldly weigh the benefits and costs, just as Britain is currently assessing the relative advantages or disadvantages of EU membership. In such a system, someone, somewhere, will want to leave sometime. And the strong political commitment to save it will no longer be there either. http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/e38a452e-26f2-11e5-bd83-71cb60e8f08c.html#axzz3fldW1jht
This kind of overture is thought provoking to be sure. But this was a very serious shock to the Greek economy. They can't just take this "opportunity" to exit the Eurozone. The outcome (as we previewed for a few days) would be disastrous.
Take the deal and plan something out behind the scenes if exit is truly the best option.
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Zurich15365 Posts
On July 12 2015 07:45 Hryul wrote:
you can throw around numbers all the way you want, but it doesnt change the fact that they are simply unbelievable. again: with these numbers every worker in greece must work at least 8 hrs/day every day that isn't sat/sun and never go on vacation.
I am kind of late to the latest round of the lazy Greeks debate, but let me throw in my share of anecdotal evidence. Background: I have worked in Greece for much of last year at a large retail and business supply company.
Greeks do work long hours, in fact they do work the longest hours I have experienced in any assignment ever. The standard contract at the company I was working at was 50 hours / week. Many worked more than that. Most people are in the office by 9am, and nobody leaves before 7pm. Many work past 8pm or 9pm.
Greek projects are somewhat notorious among my colleagues, since yes, you get to enjoy all the great food, but really you don't have any time to even enjoy some sunlight as even in summer it's getting dark by the time you leave the office.
In addition, the Greeks there don't even take any breaks. Most people don't even take a lunch break, and if they do, it's a matter of 15 minutes. Most sit at their computer for literally 10-12 hours without looking up.
Someone posted earlier about shops being closed all the time. I can't speak for the daytime, but at least at night most shops were open until 10pm or later. With the long hours at the office anything else wouldn't really make sense.
Stories of Greeks taking it easy in the big vacation areas with guaranteed business from tourists aren't worth much. Visit the actual Greece outside the tourism business and you will get a different picture.
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^sounds fair me, I apologise for whatever bad image I had was caused by a rather pigeon holed experience.
What would be solution so if like you said Greeks have been working hard to try to solve their problems in the past 5 years.
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On July 13 2015 20:47 gsgfdf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2015 20:14 Kenpark wrote:On July 13 2015 18:41 WhiteDog wrote:On July 13 2015 17:23 unsaeglich wrote:On July 13 2015 10:10 c0ldfusion wrote:On July 13 2015 09:34 gsgfdf wrote:On July 13 2015 09:15 nunez wrote:The Alternative to Austerity
... abridged version of the statement submitted by the Left Platform at today’s plenary meeting of Syriza’s parliamentary group ...
The government must declare to the “institutions” and to proclaim to the Greek people that, even at the last moment, without a positive compromise reflected in a program that will end austerity, provide sufficient liquidity to economy, lead to economic recovery, and include major writing-off of the debt, it is ready to follow an alternative progressive path which puts into question the presence of our country in the eurozone, while interrupting debt repayment.
In order to confront the pressures and unacceptable demands of the creditors, the process that could lead Greece out of the eurozone is a serious and complex enterprise, which should have been systematically prepared by the government and by Syriza. However, due to the tragic blockages that prevailed both in government and in the party, this has not been achieved.
Nevertheless, even now the government can and must respond to the blackmail of the “institutions” by posing the following alternative: either a program without any further austerity, providing liquidity, and leading to debt cancellation, or exit from the euro and default on the repayment of an unjust and unsustainable debt.
... srctranslation via jacobinmag, couple of days old, but wasn't posted. very curious to what the plans for an eventual transition, provided they have been, and are being made, look like wrt social control and emergency currency system, and how this would actually play out. The problem is there is no plan. What you have linked is the opinion of a minority in Syriza, a vocal one but still a minority. The opposition parties that have already voted for austerity in the past accused Syriza that they had a plan to return to drachma from the start, so that oligarchs supporting Syriza can profit. The problem actually is that they didn't have a plan for that. They were bluffing, expecting the creditors to back down first, for them to not be as cruel as they are. I also believe that they thought they had more allies among the south, unable to realise how powerless anyone other than France and Germany actually is. Most of what has transpired these 6 months is an act of balance, Syriza trying not to betray the people that voted them in while getting a deal with the Europeans. At least France is vocally supporting Greece through all this. 1. Germany supported Greece much more than France. 2. Since Germany is the major supporter of Greece, it's in Germanies main goal to create an efficient economy in Greece. the main problem is the people in Greece voted for a party that undone the advance that was made by the earlier parties. And furthermore insult Germans personally in a bad manner, which makes it difficult for Germans to "lend" (throw away) them their money. Sadly the people of Germany were never asked if THEY wanted to be in the EU anymore. Because there are many in Germany who would want to have their own currency and not be forced into slavery for silly Greeks for generations to come. lol German support Greece more than France ? The first plan that was proposed was basically written with french help, as Hollande quietly sent some high official to Tsipras. Made many french economists laugh as even the handwritting was specific of french "Enarques". Hollande also said many times that the plan proposed was a good plan. Meanwhile, Germany is crushing Greece. The Eurozone is dead for good now, just wait for any unstability that touch either Italy or Spain. How much should countries suffer for an artifact such as the euro ? And I don't understand the Greeks at all, they are an essential element to NATO and to the US, just ask the US for some printing power. The US have never been that selfish - compared to the German I mean. the main problem is the people in Greece voted for a party that undone the advance that was made by the earlier parties. And furthermore insult Germans personally in a bad manner, which makes it difficult for Germans to "lend" (throw away) them their money. Insult Germans ? Is it real ? The Greek have done everything that was wanted from them in the last 5 years, and the north of the eurozone are asking for more. It's basically like asking a man already on his knees to kiss your feet. What's more insulting, this or the fact that the man want to say no ? You cant be serious about countries "suffering" from the Euro. It speaks volumes that the majority of Greece still wants to stay in the Euro despite the situation they are in. People seem to forget what kind of country Greece was before they got in the Euro. You cannot ignore the fear mongering that's been constantly on the news about the consequencies of a Grexit. A news anchor actually said that west Thrake will be invaded like Ukraine if we leave the European Union. Tsipras has taken back EVERYTHING he said. They are even gonna reinstitute the humiliating inspecting of the past years. Greeks are in favor of Euro because they still have things to lose. Soon the percentage that simply doesn't care one way or another will be a majority.
Greek population has been on a slight decline in the last few years. The media tries to link it to the economic woos and calls it a "brain drain".
For someone who is currently living in the country, do you think more young people will try to flee? Or is there still fight left in the government after Tsipras' capitulation?
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On July 13 2015 20:51 BurningSera wrote:
Well is a done deal now, and I hope this time we can come out stronger.
I don't think it will though, I bet the policies from EU/EC will have some big changes in the next couple of years. UK is probably going to isolate themselves more to EU, French and German will be planning some real backup plans now for the same shit to happen again in 3 years time.
Hardly a done deal. Greece needs to get it through parliament by wednesday for one.
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I should say that I still think this is positive news for the Greeks.
The alternative of no deal getting done would have been utterly disastrous for ordinary Greeks. Things would have gotten worse, way worse before they got better.
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On July 13 2015 21:02 c0ldfusion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2015 20:47 gsgfdf wrote:On July 13 2015 20:14 Kenpark wrote:On July 13 2015 18:41 WhiteDog wrote:On July 13 2015 17:23 unsaeglich wrote:On July 13 2015 10:10 c0ldfusion wrote:On July 13 2015 09:34 gsgfdf wrote:On July 13 2015 09:15 nunez wrote:The Alternative to Austerity
... abridged version of the statement submitted by the Left Platform at today’s plenary meeting of Syriza’s parliamentary group ...
The government must declare to the “institutions” and to proclaim to the Greek people that, even at the last moment, without a positive compromise reflected in a program that will end austerity, provide sufficient liquidity to economy, lead to economic recovery, and include major writing-off of the debt, it is ready to follow an alternative progressive path which puts into question the presence of our country in the eurozone, while interrupting debt repayment.
In order to confront the pressures and unacceptable demands of the creditors, the process that could lead Greece out of the eurozone is a serious and complex enterprise, which should have been systematically prepared by the government and by Syriza. However, due to the tragic blockages that prevailed both in government and in the party, this has not been achieved.
Nevertheless, even now the government can and must respond to the blackmail of the “institutions” by posing the following alternative: either a program without any further austerity, providing liquidity, and leading to debt cancellation, or exit from the euro and default on the repayment of an unjust and unsustainable debt.
... srctranslation via jacobinmag, couple of days old, but wasn't posted. very curious to what the plans for an eventual transition, provided they have been, and are being made, look like wrt social control and emergency currency system, and how this would actually play out. The problem is there is no plan. What you have linked is the opinion of a minority in Syriza, a vocal one but still a minority. The opposition parties that have already voted for austerity in the past accused Syriza that they had a plan to return to drachma from the start, so that oligarchs supporting Syriza can profit. The problem actually is that they didn't have a plan for that. They were bluffing, expecting the creditors to back down first, for them to not be as cruel as they are. I also believe that they thought they had more allies among the south, unable to realise how powerless anyone other than France and Germany actually is. Most of what has transpired these 6 months is an act of balance, Syriza trying not to betray the people that voted them in while getting a deal with the Europeans. At least France is vocally supporting Greece through all this. 1. Germany supported Greece much more than France. 2. Since Germany is the major supporter of Greece, it's in Germanies main goal to create an efficient economy in Greece. the main problem is the people in Greece voted for a party that undone the advance that was made by the earlier parties. And furthermore insult Germans personally in a bad manner, which makes it difficult for Germans to "lend" (throw away) them their money. Sadly the people of Germany were never asked if THEY wanted to be in the EU anymore. Because there are many in Germany who would want to have their own currency and not be forced into slavery for silly Greeks for generations to come. lol German support Greece more than France ? The first plan that was proposed was basically written with french help, as Hollande quietly sent some high official to Tsipras. Made many french economists laugh as even the handwritting was specific of french "Enarques". Hollande also said many times that the plan proposed was a good plan. Meanwhile, Germany is crushing Greece. The Eurozone is dead for good now, just wait for any unstability that touch either Italy or Spain. How much should countries suffer for an artifact such as the euro ? And I don't understand the Greeks at all, they are an essential element to NATO and to the US, just ask the US for some printing power. The US have never been that selfish - compared to the German I mean. the main problem is the people in Greece voted for a party that undone the advance that was made by the earlier parties. And furthermore insult Germans personally in a bad manner, which makes it difficult for Germans to "lend" (throw away) them their money. Insult Germans ? Is it real ? The Greek have done everything that was wanted from them in the last 5 years, and the north of the eurozone are asking for more. It's basically like asking a man already on his knees to kiss your feet. What's more insulting, this or the fact that the man want to say no ? You cant be serious about countries "suffering" from the Euro. It speaks volumes that the majority of Greece still wants to stay in the Euro despite the situation they are in. People seem to forget what kind of country Greece was before they got in the Euro. You cannot ignore the fear mongering that's been constantly on the news about the consequencies of a Grexit. A news anchor actually said that west Thrake will be invaded like Ukraine if we leave the European Union. Tsipras has taken back EVERYTHING he said. They are even gonna reinstitute the humiliating inspecting of the past years. Greeks are in favor of Euro because they still have things to lose. Soon the percentage that simply doesn't care one way or another will be a majority. Greek population has been on a slight decline in the last few years. The media tries to link it to the economic woos and calls it a "brain drain". For someone who is currently living in the country, do you think more young people will try to flee? Or is there still fight left in the government after Tsipras' capitulation?
Brain drain is real, i have said before that anyone who is still here is either too old, too young or has to many ties. Unless a miracle happens and austerity works this time, more people will leave. I know I will probably leave when i finish my studies. Things are looking grim.
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The FT article was pure gold, thank you WhiteDog. Sources have described the meeting as "mental waterboarding" to Tsipras, but we will see who is really suffocating.
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Was there nothing Greece could have done since January to prepare for a Grexit and actually have an alternative to accepting this apparently humiliating deal? Were they just bluffing their way into a game of chicken where they could only lose?
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On July 13 2015 22:19 warding wrote:
Was there nothing Greece could have done since January to prepare for a Grexit and actually have an alternative to accepting this apparently humiliating deal? Were they just bluffing their way into a game of chicken where they could only lose?
Greek don't want to exit the euro, that's the problem. Tsipras and Varoufakis didn't prepare it, because they don't want to.
It would be so easy for Greece to ask something from the US and Russia, since they have ties with those two huge countries... like some printing machine for exemple ? The US did it for Iraq, they can do it for Greece.
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What a beautiful lesson in democracy from Greece, I am truly impressed. I hope that will make people of other countries realize that the promises of governing by referendums made by various populist parties are straight-up lies. Governing by referendums is not a thing and should not be one.
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On July 13 2015 22:22 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2015 22:19 warding wrote:
Was there nothing Greece could have done since January to prepare for a Grexit and actually have an alternative to accepting this apparently humiliating deal? Were they just bluffing their way into a game of chicken where they could only lose? Greek don't want to exit the euro, that's the problem. Tsipras and Varoufakis didn't prepare it, because they don't want to. It would be so easy for Greece to ask something from the US and Russia, since they have ties with those two huge countries... like some printing machine for exemple ? The US did it for Iraq, they can do it for Greece.
The US is unlikely to go against the EU in this.
And if you think asking Russia for help is a good idea I dont even know what your thinking.
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On July 13 2015 22:19 warding wrote:
Was there nothing Greece could have done since January to prepare for a Grexit and actually have an alternative to accepting this apparently humiliating deal? Were they just bluffing their way into a game of chicken where they could only lose?
As Whitedog said, Greece does not want to leave.
They didn't need to prepare for an exit these last 6 months, They could have simply not pissed all over the previous agreements and actually done the reforms that were asked.
This 'humiliating' deal exists because Greece broke all agreements and threw away any trust the international community had in them following through.
Heck most of these 'humiliating' agreements are simply the reforms they failed to do the last time being forced upon them now.
Yes its so terrible they are being kept to their word...
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As Whitedog said, Greece does not want to leave because the Euro did so much good for them.
LOl ? I said that ? The euro is destroying them. They want to stay for political, ideological reasons.
And if you think asking Russia for help is a good idea I dont even know what your thinking.
Russia's help seems better than europe's tho. When you look at Ukraine, Europe did not give any monetary support, Russia did. Plus Greece culturally is close to Russia since they are both orthodox.
For the lol :
+ Show Spoiler +
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On July 13 2015 22:28 OtherWorld wrote:
What a beautiful lesson in democracy from Greece, I am truly impressed. I hope that will make people of other countries realize that the promises of governing by referendums made by various populist parties are straight-up lies. Governing by referendums is not a thing and should not be one.
Switzerland is doing it and they are fine.
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What a travesty. #thisisacoup
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EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJvAGtLWEAAMF7y.png)
