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Furikawari
France2522 Posts
On July 13 2015 01:10 bookwyrm wrote: They want to force Syriza to resign before any deal It's exactly this. And to be more precise: they are really afraid that a non-TINA political party could reach success. So germans will never agreed to a deal with this government. | ||
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bookwyrm
United States722 Posts
On July 13 2015 01:18 Furikawari wrote: It's exactly this. And to be more precise: they are really afraid that a non-TINA political party could reach success. So germans will never agreed to a deal with this government. you get it. the stakes are not about greece. the stakes are not about the money that greece supposedly owes. the stakes about the continued survival of the entire post-71, post-89 neoliberal order. greece is just the prelude to a game which is going to be played for all the marbles. all of them | ||
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c0ldfusion
United States8293 Posts
Syriza would see to a Grexit before stepping down voluntarily and that would set a very dangerous precedence and it would be a very big gamble on Germany's part. | ||
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bookwyrm
United States722 Posts
On July 13 2015 01:30 c0ldfusion wrote: I don't think I agree. Because if that's truly the play Germany is going for, they're going to overextend their hand and it's going to blow up in their faces. we can hope! I think that is exactly what they are going to do. It's exactly what Bernanke and Yellen have spent the last 7 years doing so why not the germans? at which point.. all power to the communes! | ||
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c0ldfusion
United States8293 Posts
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Banaora
Germany234 Posts
Can't see Syriza agreeing to this, but what do I know... | ||
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c0ldfusion
United States8293 Posts
That's a positive sign I think that they're negotiating in good faith. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22102 Posts
On July 13 2015 01:42 Banaora wrote: This is what according to a journalist of Politico is supposed to be put into law by Greece Wednesday at the latest if they want a third "rescue" package: https://twitter.com/tarapalmeri/status/620262473476763649/photo/1 Can't see Syriza agreeing to this, but what do I know... Makes sense. Syriza has to show they mean business and are not making empty promises. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On July 13 2015 01:30 c0ldfusion wrote: I don't think I agree. Because if that's truly the play Germany is going for, they're going to overextend their hand and it's going to blow up in their faces. Syriza would see to a Grexit before stepping down voluntarily and that would set a very dangerous precedence and it would be a very big gamble on Germany's part. I would hope that the past few decades have convinced people that "regime change" is not a long-term healthy strategy for handling disagreements. Might take another decade to figure that out though. | ||
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Yuljan
2196 Posts
On July 13 2015 01:13 WhiteDog wrote: I don't have the solutions, i was just pointing out that this idea that less is better is idiotic, even regarding democracy. Whatever Greece structural problems are. For who do you think the sick man of Europe expression has been tailored ? The 1993 recession in France is largely linked to the indirect cost of the reunification that we europeans agreed to paid - altho without any democratic decision - in exchange for an increased implication of Germany in the Europe. Once again, I do not trust your arguments. I dont see how France was paying for the reunification or has higher productivity than other European countries or had to support Europe largely on their own in the last century. I do know however know that French tend to overestimate their own contributions so I would be very grateful for any independent sources on the subject that uses rational rather than emotional arguments. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On July 13 2015 02:06 Yuljan wrote: Once again, I do not trust your arguments. I dont see how France was paying for the reunification or has higher productivity than other European countries or had to support Europe largely on their own in the last century. I do know however know that French tend to overestimate their own contributions so I would be very grateful for any independent sources on the subject that uses rational rather than emotional arguments. The graphs I found showed that France was the fourth most productive country in the EU (after Luxemburg, The Netherlands, and Belgium) but honestly the difference with the Netherlands and Belgium were was so small as to be negligible. His main point stands. | ||
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apelsinsaft
42 Posts
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bookwyrm
United States722 Posts
On July 13 2015 01:3 c0ldfusion wrote: I have no idea what you mean by that Bernanke and Yellen comment. I don't see any situation in the US parallel to the Greece crisis. They are completely parallel. Bad private sector debt gets bailed out by governments turning them into big vulture funds and triggering sovereign debt crises. In fact theyre not even different they are part of the same global economic crisis of the US and its vassals (ie europe) Read mark blythe on austerity if you think I dont know what I am saying | ||
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
The german government has been very reluctant, from the very start, to give out credits. For whatever reason they adhered to the idea of having to bail out the banks (mainly french and german ones at that, just a friendly reminder of myself) at the beginning of the crisis and from then on just went with it, without a major plan it seems, going from one bailout to the next without really having a lasting solution - which would have been either debt restructuring with lasting reforms (no clue how to achieve that, one cannot impose that kind of reforms from the outside, it has to come from the inside - or the populace will feel dominated) or Grexit, in hindsight. Alas, the Merkel government lacked the chuzpe to go for either one and just tried to wing it ("durchmerkeln" has become a popular expression to describe her indecisive way of acting for a reason). In none of this has there been any mischevious plan to conquer Europe or bait Greece into more credits. That's rather tinfoil-hatish. I'm afraid the reality is even scarier: none of our leaders had any kind of grand plan to begin with. | ||
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RenSC2
United States1080 Posts
1) In the US, the more liberal party (democrats) is the one that pushes for larger government and more regulation while the more conservative party (republicans) push for smaller government and deregulation. I've seen accusations in this thread of being a Liberal when people have proposed less regulation. Is it flipped around in Europe where the liberals are pushing for smaller government while the conservatives are pushing for a larger government? Or am I missing something else entirely? 2) Is "bike-thief" a common German stereotype? I saw it used in this thread and a year or two ago there was an incident in the US where a person was going around stealing bikes out of garages. Eventually, a man purposely left his garage open and waited with a gun. When the thief came in, the man shot him dead. It turned out he was a German exchange student. Here's an article on the verdict: http://news.yahoo.com/montana-man-killed-german-student-set-sentencing-065431013.html Sorry, I'm just curious on this one as I haven't heard that stereotype before. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On July 13 2015 01:30 c0ldfusion wrote: I don't think I agree. Because if that's truly the play Germany is going for, they're going to overextend their hand and it's going to blow up in their faces. Syriza would see to a Grexit before stepping down voluntarily and that would set a very dangerous precedence and it would be a very big gamble on Germany's part. The threat in Greece is not limited to default, per se. Germany wants Syriza to resign because that would be a symbolic victory over the grass roots self-organization going on in Greece, and that has been going on in Greece for the last 5 years. We've seen the proliferation of alternative currencies, community-based politics, and general rebellion against the neoliberal European order and that serves as a greater threat to European stability in the troika's eyes than a haggling over some billions here or there. It's the authenticity of Syriza's leaders and the rejection of fear-driven politics that makes them an important symbolic target. | ||
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warding
Portugal2394 Posts
On July 13 2015 03:42 RenSC2 wrote: A couple questions from a US person. 1) In the US, the more liberal party (democrats) is the one that pushes for larger government and more regulation while the more conservative party (republicans) push for smaller government and deregulation. I've seen accusations in this thread of being a Liberal when people have proposed less regulation. Is it flipped around in Europe where the liberals are pushing for smaller government while the conservatives are pushing for a larger government? Or am I missing something else entirely? It is the US who flipped it. The word liberal can be meant in the social and economic sense. In the latter, liberals tend to favor less government interference in the economy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism In Europe it is also fashionable for people who generally have no idea what they are talking about to use the word neoliberal as a pejorative term. You can generally disregard their opinions. | ||
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c0ldfusion
United States8293 Posts
On July 13 2015 03:29 bookwyrm wrote: They are completely parallel. Bad private sector debt gets bailed out by governments turning them into big vulture funds and triggering sovereign debt crises. In fact theyre not even different they are part of the same global economic crisis of the US and its vassals (ie europe) Read mark blythe on austerity if you think I dont know what I am saying So 1, your comment is extremely superficial. I don't know who or what you're trying to bait. 2, let's say you're not trolling, even if you struggle to find some kind of analogy you're going completely off-topic and you're trying to derail the thread. Frankly, it's embarrassing to me as an American that you're trying to promote your personal view about US policy in a European thread when we have a very real and very immediate crisis on our hands. | ||
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
On July 13 2015 03:42 RenSC2 wrote: A couple questions from a US person. 1) In the US, the more liberal party (democrats) is the one that pushes for larger government and more regulation while the more conservative party (republicans) push for smaller government and deregulation. I've seen accusations in this thread of being a Liberal when people have proposed less regulation. Is it flipped around in Europe where the liberals are pushing for smaller government while the conservatives are pushing for a larger government? Or am I missing something else entirely? 2) Is "bike-thief" a common German stereotype? I saw it used in this thread and a year or two ago there was an incident in the US where a person was going around stealing bikes out of garages. Eventually, a man purposely left his garage open and waited with a gun. When the thief came in, the man shot him dead. It turned out he was a German exchange student. Here's an article on the verdict: http://news.yahoo.com/montana-man-killed-german-student-set-sentencing-065431013.html Sorry, I'm just curious on this one as I haven't heard that stereotype before. re 1: the term liberal is used very differently on both sides of the pond. In USA, it is used in the context of social liberalism (gay rights, race and class equality, feminism and so on = removing regulations on what one may or may not do in private life, on how to interact). In Europe it is often meant in the sense of economic liberalism, like deregulating banks, believing in the magic powers of the free market and so on. So, American "liberal" = left in European political speak, while European "liberal" = less state regulations/ right-ish economic policies in American political speak. re 2: no clue, ask our neighbors. Never heard it before reading it in this thread. | ||
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bookwyrm
United States722 Posts
On July 13 20immediate crisis on our hands. And its the same crisis.5 03:48 c0ldfusion wrote: So 1, your comment is extremely superficial. I don't know who or what you're trying to bait. 2, let's say you're not trolling, even if you struggle to find some kind of analogy you're going completely off-topic and you're trying to derail the thread. Frankly, it's embarrassing to me as an American that you're trying to promote your personal view about US policy in a European thread when we have a very real and very immediate crisis on our hands. Im not baiting anything im just trying to help you understand the current global conjuncture. We ALL have a real and Immediate crisis. Its the same crisis. Its what you might call a crisis of the world-system. Trying to analyze these things according to naive conception of geographical political boundaries is a bad epistemic framework. If you want to understand the crisis you have to understand it in its global dimensions because it is a crisis of globalizing capital. Duh! :p | ||
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