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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On July 12 2015 18:32 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +Greece debt crisis: EU summit cancelled as talks continue
A summit of all European Union members planned for Sunday has been cancelled as "very difficult" talks over a third bailout deal for Greece continue.
[...]
European Commission Vice President Valdis Dombrovskis said it was "utterly unlikely" a mandate would be achieved in Sunday's meeting to start formal negotiations on the third bailout.
Slovakian Finance Minister Peter Kazimir was similarly downbeat, saying: "It's not possible to reach a deal today. We can agree on certain recommendations for the heads of state. That's all. The breach of trust... it's so big, it's not possible to achieve the deal." source (BBC)
holy crap... really? it's pretty much the same as the original deal
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On July 12 2015 23:55 c0ldfusion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 18:32 Toadesstern wrote:Greece debt crisis: EU summit cancelled as talks continue
A summit of all European Union members planned for Sunday has been cancelled as "very difficult" talks over a third bailout deal for Greece continue.
[...]
European Commission Vice President Valdis Dombrovskis said it was "utterly unlikely" a mandate would be achieved in Sunday's meeting to start formal negotiations on the third bailout.
Slovakian Finance Minister Peter Kazimir was similarly downbeat, saying: "It's not possible to reach a deal today. We can agree on certain recommendations for the heads of state. That's all. The breach of trust... it's so big, it's not possible to achieve the deal." source (BBC) holy crap... really? it's pretty much the same as the original deal
Yes, except since then the Greek government has destroyed all trust that ever existed and the Greek banks have been destroyed.
Oh and the previous deal was about the final payment of a previous deal. This is about an entire new deal for considerably more money.
But as everyone involved keeps saying. Its mostly the utter lack of trust in the Greek government to actually do anything and the Greek people to not vote in the next guy to undo it all.
There is still a meeting of the Eurozone members today tho. Its just the EU meeting that was cancelled.
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Dang that Finish finance minister is cold.
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On July 12 2015 23:55 c0ldfusion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 18:32 Toadesstern wrote:Greece debt crisis: EU summit cancelled as talks continue
A summit of all European Union members planned for Sunday has been cancelled as "very difficult" talks over a third bailout deal for Greece continue.
[...]
European Commission Vice President Valdis Dombrovskis said it was "utterly unlikely" a mandate would be achieved in Sunday's meeting to start formal negotiations on the third bailout.
Slovakian Finance Minister Peter Kazimir was similarly downbeat, saying: "It's not possible to reach a deal today. We can agree on certain recommendations for the heads of state. That's all. The breach of trust... it's so big, it's not possible to achieve the deal." source (BBC) holy crap... really? it's pretty much the same as the original deal
they seem to think it's a good sign that it was canceled by now. If Grexit were to happen they'd have to meet for sure no matter what so it shouldn't be a "canceled because no point to meet (because a deal isn't happening anyways)"
Also most of the FinMin seem to be optimistic and think that the solution they came up with is plausible. Basicly some kind of monitoring and conditions combined with a couple of stuff Greece has to implement until the 15th before talks about an actual third package can start. To show they actually plan on doing stuff as far as I understood.
Even the more hardline ones have been optimistic, including the finnish one. I've heard the austrian one (? it was german he was talking for sure) say Grexit is off the table while entering and so forth.
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On July 12 2015 23:00 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 22:34 maartendq wrote:On July 12 2015 20:49 WhiteDog wrote:On July 12 2015 20:31 maartendq wrote:On July 12 2015 19:30 WhiteDog wrote:On July 12 2015 19:23 maartendq wrote:On July 12 2015 17:45 WhiteDog wrote:On July 12 2015 16:58 maartendq wrote:On July 12 2015 07:25 warding wrote:
Normally used for what? Not as a way to identify which nations are lazy. If you look at productivity you'll simply find that workers in richer countries are more productive - simply because they tend to work in more capital intensive and value-creating industries.
EDIT: You can set those stats to look at only dependent employment. Greece still comes out on top of all western european countries. You can also check other stats like % of dependent workers (Men, 25-54yo) who work more than 40 hours per week (Greece: 86.1%, Germany: 67.7%, Netherlands: 54.6%). Hours worked per day or per week means very little. My wife is from Malaysia and they've got a 46-hour work week there, meaning that if you added Malaysia to those graphs, the whole of Europe would seem incredibly lazy. What matters is how efficient bureaucracy is, i.e. how much red tape does one need to go through to get something done. If a simple request takes four phone calls to different departments, who then have to look up stuff in badly organised or god forbid even paper files, that will not be as productive as someone who can just look up all the necessary information the customer needs on his computer because all files are stored centrally on a server which most employees have access to. Then there's still vertical hierarchy to take into account as well: having to ask the permission of superiors to sometimes do even the smallest thing, unnecessary levels of (middle) management etc. How much someone can get done in one hour is a whole lot more important than how much time that peson spends at the workplace. It's always funny with the liberals how the solutions are always the same : less "rules" and more "competition". Why is it that the most competitive multinational firms in the world still produced a heavy administration and are usually bound by tons of rules ? The administration in France - the most productive (by hour) country in europe, after luxembourg - is most likely bigger than any other EU country, but who cares Greeks small productivity is linked to its bureaucracy's inefficiency ! No, what define productivity is the capital accumulated - in all its forms - that people use through out their production. I was actually arguing for less red tape, not for less regulation. There's a difference there. To get more productivity, you need more investment, more qualified workforce, more advanced technology, not "less" anything. How do you think productivity will increase when every decision, no matter how trivial, requires the approval of several levels of management (that exist only to satisfy people's egos), who may not find that decision to be a priority and might procrastinate on it? Or worse, if decisions require the filling out of endless forms, which need to be approved by a manager and so on and so on. It doesn't matter how qualified your workforce is, or how advanced your technology is, stuff like that will grind every administration to a halt. In the end its only purpose becomes to sustain itself rather than provide services for the people. That's just an ideological discourse with 0 empirical ground. I gave you an exemple (France) of a very bureaucratic state and a very productive one. Bureaucracy has also a lot of positive impact on productivity - from this point of view, Greece needs more bureaucracy not less - as pointed out by the (very liberal) endogene growth theory. Sure bureaucracy have famous inefficiencies, but if you really think those inefficiencies are at the core of one country's lack of productivity, you're putting not only a finger but your whole hand in your eye. But well, as a good liberal, rational arguments will have no impact on you whatsoever so let's agree to disagree. The red tape people have to go through to get anything done is one of the main complaints about the Greek public sector. It is bloated, inefficient, recruitment is based on nepotism and clientelism rather than meritocracy, and most importantly, Greece can't afford it any longer. And you think Greece needs not less, but even more of that? How is that going to help? You cannot compare the bureaucracy of a country like France to the bureaucracy of Greece. They're on completely different levels, both in terms of workforce qualifications and workforce integrity. So the problem is not that they need less bureaucracy, but more state. They need rules, a judicial system and a police efficient enough to punish corruption, etc. All that need more investment and not less, that s a fact and that was my point since the beginning. And when I said capital in all its form I include institutions (which are also something you accumulate).
If it's a matter of having a good bureaucracy instead of a bad one rather than big government vs small, how do you get there though? If the same people are still in charge that couldn't fix it, how do we guarantee that they don't end up with a big, bad government?
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If Finland can't agree, they are free to leave the Euro.
In the mean time, it seems the problem isn't to get Greece to agree to more austerity. The problem is to get the ECB, IMF and EC on one line. And now that Greece has proposed something all 3 can like, the EC can't get it's members to agree.
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On July 13 2015 00:20 Alcathous wrote:
If Finland can't agree, they are free to leave the Euro.
Oh joy, your back..
Finland has the right to say No, simple as that.
Them saying no has no effect tho since 85% agreement is enough.
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We are going to destroy the Euro and EU because of Finland?
It's not just my opinion:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9380851/Finland-could-leave-the-eurozone-rather-than-pay-other-nations-debts-says-Jutta-Urpilainen.html
Yes, moderators unfairly banned be after I became the victim of insults. Of course your big mouth is allowed to say anything. But then again, you had no one to insult when I was gone since all lefties and Greeks are all long gone because of bullying. Up to a degree people even go to praise the moderation. No dissident opinion, no need for moderation, I guess.
I guess I have to set my status to 'the Netherlands' to gain protection. I'd proof I am Dutch by talking Dutch, but that's against the rules and I am sure if I give them a tiny excuse, I will be gone for 2 weeks.
As for the Greeks, they need more state. And that costs money. They need to fire the old government officials that willingly sabotage the plans of their political leaders. But Greece can't afford them. They need to hire the unemployed educated young, that are willing to work hard to make Greece a modern nation. But, they don't have the money to do so.
Instead, with pensions 5 years delayed, these old government officials, that block tax collection, will be there for 5 more years.
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I don't think this thread has ever been really anti-Greece. Most of us agree with many of your points, e.g. the debt isn't sustainable, Greeks aren't lazy, etc.
I, for one, would welcome our Greek TL members to come back to this thread and tell us their thoughts through this process.
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GMarshal is the moderator that banned me. Go PM him. He refuse to even read mine.
As an American I guess he can't tell the difference between someone making stereotypical European insults(which I received), and satire on stereotypical European insults (which is how I defended myself).
If someone here comes and yells 'fucking lazy Geeks', I am going to stand up for them. If someone is going to call me a 'lazy Greek' when I know for a fact that they know I am Dutch, I am going to ridicule them. Even if they are German. Even if their grandparents killed mine. Even after they threaten to destroy European unity after we voided all their debts to create a unified Europe.
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It's OK, you're back now.
We've all had our share of run-ins with TL moderation.
On topic: despite opposition by some of the financial ministers, it seems like there is still a good chance that a deal will get done.
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On July 13 2015 00:24 Alcathous wrote:
Yes, moderators unfairly banned be after I became the victim of insults. Of course your big mouth is allowed to say anything. But then again, you had no one to insult when I was gone since all lefties and Greeks are all long gone because of bullying. Up to a degree people even go to praise the moderation. No dissident opinion, no need for moderation, I guess.
Well you were banned because of racial slurs. There is nothing unfair in that, if you had manners, you'd apologize instead of whining about it. Besides, this is not the thread to voice complains about moderation issues, if you feel unfailry treated by a mod, you can complain here according to this site's netiquette: Website Feedback Forum
In one thing you are right though, I miss Tagucci - while I disagreed with him on a few points, he at least had reasonable arguments and stood in for a perspective that is somewhat lacking now in this thread. I hope he can get over the unfair tone by some posters that made him go away.
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Racial slurs? lol
All I did was ridicule Europeans insulting Europeans after I received a personal attack meant for Greeks.
All Greeks are gone. If you want people to insult; here I am.
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Original Message From TL.net Bot: This is a Warning! Show nested quote +GMarshal is the moderator that banned me. Go PM him. He refuse to even read mine.
As an American I guess he can't tell the difference between someone making stereotypical European insults(which I received), and satire on stereotypical European insults (which is how I defended myself).
If someone here comes and yells 'fucking lazy Geeks', I am going to stand up for them. If someone is going to call me a 'lazy Greek' when I know for a fact that they know I am Dutch, I am going to ridicule them. Take moderation issues to website feedback. It has nothing to do with the topic and derails the thread. Thanks in advance for your cooperation, JBright (Do not reply to this message. No one will receive it.)
I did and mod didn't reply. Now I come here to post on-topic and others, not me, start to talk about my ban because they want to ridicule me once more. wtf
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Wait, aren't you the guy that caused all this. And you demand an apology now. What hypocrisy. And return my grandfather's bicycle.
Sure, you miss that 'lazy Greek'. We are to believe that?
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Germany25658 Posts
Everyone please stop talking about moderation.
Alcathous, please take your concerns to Website Feedback or PM the moderators directly.
Yes, I know GMarshal has not responded to you yet, he will though, chill 
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Let's talk about the current state of this situation
There's some sense that behind the scenes Germany wants to pull the plug. It's not clear if they'll have sufficient support for that and also, there is no legal framework for an orderly exit of an existing member. They'll have to starve Greece out if they really wanted to and that's going to be costly for everyone as well. The focus really should be on implementation now that Greece has submitted to most of the terms. Things won't be great but at least it won't be a disaster for everyone involved.
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They want to force Syriza to resign before any deal
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On July 13 2015 00:20 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 23:00 WhiteDog wrote:On July 12 2015 22:34 maartendq wrote:On July 12 2015 20:49 WhiteDog wrote:On July 12 2015 20:31 maartendq wrote:On July 12 2015 19:30 WhiteDog wrote:On July 12 2015 19:23 maartendq wrote:On July 12 2015 17:45 WhiteDog wrote:On July 12 2015 16:58 maartendq wrote:On July 12 2015 07:25 warding wrote:
Normally used for what? Not as a way to identify which nations are lazy. If you look at productivity you'll simply find that workers in richer countries are more productive - simply because they tend to work in more capital intensive and value-creating industries.
EDIT: You can set those stats to look at only dependent employment. Greece still comes out on top of all western european countries. You can also check other stats like % of dependent workers (Men, 25-54yo) who work more than 40 hours per week (Greece: 86.1%, Germany: 67.7%, Netherlands: 54.6%). Hours worked per day or per week means very little. My wife is from Malaysia and they've got a 46-hour work week there, meaning that if you added Malaysia to those graphs, the whole of Europe would seem incredibly lazy. What matters is how efficient bureaucracy is, i.e. how much red tape does one need to go through to get something done. If a simple request takes four phone calls to different departments, who then have to look up stuff in badly organised or god forbid even paper files, that will not be as productive as someone who can just look up all the necessary information the customer needs on his computer because all files are stored centrally on a server which most employees have access to. Then there's still vertical hierarchy to take into account as well: having to ask the permission of superiors to sometimes do even the smallest thing, unnecessary levels of (middle) management etc. How much someone can get done in one hour is a whole lot more important than how much time that peson spends at the workplace. It's always funny with the liberals how the solutions are always the same : less "rules" and more "competition". Why is it that the most competitive multinational firms in the world still produced a heavy administration and are usually bound by tons of rules ? The administration in France - the most productive (by hour) country in europe, after luxembourg - is most likely bigger than any other EU country, but who cares Greeks small productivity is linked to its bureaucracy's inefficiency ! No, what define productivity is the capital accumulated - in all its forms - that people use through out their production. I was actually arguing for less red tape, not for less regulation. There's a difference there. To get more productivity, you need more investment, more qualified workforce, more advanced technology, not "less" anything. How do you think productivity will increase when every decision, no matter how trivial, requires the approval of several levels of management (that exist only to satisfy people's egos), who may not find that decision to be a priority and might procrastinate on it? Or worse, if decisions require the filling out of endless forms, which need to be approved by a manager and so on and so on. It doesn't matter how qualified your workforce is, or how advanced your technology is, stuff like that will grind every administration to a halt. In the end its only purpose becomes to sustain itself rather than provide services for the people. That's just an ideological discourse with 0 empirical ground. I gave you an exemple (France) of a very bureaucratic state and a very productive one. Bureaucracy has also a lot of positive impact on productivity - from this point of view, Greece needs more bureaucracy not less - as pointed out by the (very liberal) endogene growth theory. Sure bureaucracy have famous inefficiencies, but if you really think those inefficiencies are at the core of one country's lack of productivity, you're putting not only a finger but your whole hand in your eye. But well, as a good liberal, rational arguments will have no impact on you whatsoever so let's agree to disagree. The red tape people have to go through to get anything done is one of the main complaints about the Greek public sector. It is bloated, inefficient, recruitment is based on nepotism and clientelism rather than meritocracy, and most importantly, Greece can't afford it any longer. And you think Greece needs not less, but even more of that? How is that going to help? You cannot compare the bureaucracy of a country like France to the bureaucracy of Greece. They're on completely different levels, both in terms of workforce qualifications and workforce integrity. So the problem is not that they need less bureaucracy, but more state. They need rules, a judicial system and a police efficient enough to punish corruption, etc. All that need more investment and not less, that s a fact and that was my point since the beginning. And when I said capital in all its form I include institutions (which are also something you accumulate). If it's a matter of having a good bureaucracy instead of a bad one rather than big government vs small, how do you get there though? If the same people are still in charge that couldn't fix it, how do we guarantee that they don't end up with a big, bad government?
I don't have the solutions, i was just pointing out that this idea that less is better is idiotic, even regarding democracy. Whatever Greece structural problems are.
On July 12 2015 23:18 Yuljan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 21:47 WhiteDog wrote:On July 12 2015 21:45 Yuljan wrote:
It seems varoufakis gets the point. Schäuble obviously realized that a federation with France, Italy and Spain can only work if these countries reform or Germany itself will have to adopt their style of government if they do not want to be the sole large supporter of these economies, which in 20-30 years will then put Europe as a whole in Greece's position. Also talking about 8-9 bn new money or 80-100bn of new money is a big difference. I do not see the mutual benefit of debt restructuring either. The loss will be incurred either way but in case of a Grexit you dont have to rely on Greece and hope the losses dont climb any higher.
Also I would be very interested in the source of the productivity example for France. As far as I know France relies on a few large international companies not particularly on the French productivity. Funny way to put it, because the entire XX th century has been the opposite : Germany on the back of France and Europe, forcing everyone to put up with (and pay for) their costly reunification. Again I would be very grateful for sources. I am always happy to learn something new.
For who do you think the sick man of Europe expression has been tailored ? The 1993 recession in France is largely linked to the indirect cost of the reunification that we europeans agreed to paid - altho without any democratic decision - in exchange for an increased implication of Germany in the Europe.
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EPT
