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On July 12 2015 05:39 BurningSera wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 04:43 DrCooper wrote:On July 12 2015 03:43 BurningSera wrote:
that comic ahahaha.
such easy life isn't it, you can keep having money to come in without actually doing anything other than saying 'we made mistakes' and people actually believe you. They shouldn't have passed their 2nd bailout really and now nobody wants to think about if greece failed again in a couple of years. (and they will fail again, god bless eu) Well to cut them some slack, the ECB and IMF were supposed to inspect and oversee the changes/reforms that were supposed to be made in Greece and didn't do a good job on that. Europe is not ready for a common currency, nor does it really want to be. Every country has their own monetary/fiscal policy, which would be ok if we had a transfer union. However a transfer union does not exist, nor will it ever (in the eurozone). Greece lacks the investment opportunities. Mario Draghi is desperately trying to get people to invest in greece with subsidies and a low interest rate, but Greece has no companies worth investing in. Banks, 2 Oil companies and private sports betting suppliers. Not exactly promising. From what i understand is that Greece has a strong attitude that they didn't let ECB/IMF get into their government/management at all (or very limited anyway), i thought that would be the focus point in this 3rd bailout? I mean look at Ireland, troika must have literally stormed into the central government and fixed/changed all the shitty policies from the ground, not sure what exactly happened back in that 2-3 years but ireland did listen and made changes accordingly; unlike Greece, which in my head they are a bunch of barbarians who are full of themselves and stubborn (and lazy). I was in athens back then and some locals i spoke with surprised me about many of them basically work half day (9am-2/3pm) and nobody actually paying tax in the country (and some people do that for decades). I don't believe that is entirely true but it is shocking to see how a nation functions like that (or anywhere near that). It is also obvious that the nation spent their bailout money to continue their luxury lifestyle rather than actually cut down their spendings etc (like every other eu countries since 2010). The worst thing is that even when the greeks are in this deep hell hole, i bet they still manage to get more money to live per month than most of the people in eastern/baltic countries. No country should get into this kind of deep hole in the first place, and i definitely don't agree on greece lacking investment opportunities, i was in thessaloniki too and god look at those rich landlords lol. I know my post is rather personal (because i honestly don't know much about them), for all i care they should start selling their temples etc just to get their shit sorted. Many people (including me) in west europe were fucked so hard by the recession in the past couple of years and you really don't see people spend/live their lives like the greeks in the past 5 years. + Show Spoiler +
Really that's a stupid comment from the beginning to the end. Just to clarify one point, Greeks actually work more than french and germans. Proof :
![[image loading]](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DkMfAOwGmoE/UCtPUk1zjdI/AAAAAAAAAGU/NchdoQEEitU/s1600/Work+Hours.png)
On July 12 2015 07:45 Hryul wrote:
you can throw around numbers all the way you want, but it doesnt change the fact that they are simply unbelievable. again: with these numbers every worker in greece must work at least 8 hrs/day every day that isn't sat/sun and never go on vacation.
? How do you evaluate that ? 2000 hours a years is less than 8hrs a day (it's 5.5 hours a day).
There are 365 x 24 hours a year, so 8760 hours. With 8 hours a day of sleep (2920 hours) they have 5820 hours left - 2000 hours is not impossible, it only means they work a bit less than half the time they are awake. They have plenty of time for vacation (and it's an average that is heavily influenced by the numbers of hours the least productive part of Greeks economy are doing - for exemple in the least industrialized agriculture, where they have to work basically non stop without days offs).
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sigh we work too hard in this county
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On July 12 2015 09:37 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 05:39 BurningSera wrote:On July 12 2015 04:43 DrCooper wrote:On July 12 2015 03:43 BurningSera wrote:
that comic ahahaha.
such easy life isn't it, you can keep having money to come in without actually doing anything other than saying 'we made mistakes' and people actually believe you. They shouldn't have passed their 2nd bailout really and now nobody wants to think about if greece failed again in a couple of years. (and they will fail again, god bless eu) Well to cut them some slack, the ECB and IMF were supposed to inspect and oversee the changes/reforms that were supposed to be made in Greece and didn't do a good job on that. Europe is not ready for a common currency, nor does it really want to be. Every country has their own monetary/fiscal policy, which would be ok if we had a transfer union. However a transfer union does not exist, nor will it ever (in the eurozone). Greece lacks the investment opportunities. Mario Draghi is desperately trying to get people to invest in greece with subsidies and a low interest rate, but Greece has no companies worth investing in. Banks, 2 Oil companies and private sports betting suppliers. Not exactly promising. From what i understand is that Greece has a strong attitude that they didn't let ECB/IMF get into their government/management at all (or very limited anyway), i thought that would be the focus point in this 3rd bailout? I mean look at Ireland, troika must have literally stormed into the central government and fixed/changed all the shitty policies from the ground, not sure what exactly happened back in that 2-3 years but ireland did listen and made changes accordingly; unlike Greece, which in my head they are a bunch of barbarians who are full of themselves and stubborn (and lazy). I was in athens back then and some locals i spoke with surprised me about many of them basically work half day (9am-2/3pm) and nobody actually paying tax in the country (and some people do that for decades). I don't believe that is entirely true but it is shocking to see how a nation functions like that (or anywhere near that). It is also obvious that the nation spent their bailout money to continue their luxury lifestyle rather than actually cut down their spendings etc (like every other eu countries since 2010). The worst thing is that even when the greeks are in this deep hell hole, i bet they still manage to get more money to live per month than most of the people in eastern/baltic countries. No country should get into this kind of deep hole in the first place, and i definitely don't agree on greece lacking investment opportunities, i was in thessaloniki too and god look at those rich landlords lol. I know my post is rather personal (because i honestly don't know much about them), for all i care they should start selling their temples etc just to get their shit sorted. Many people (including me) in west europe were fucked so hard by the recession in the past couple of years and you really don't see people spend/live their lives like the greeks in the past 5 years. + Show Spoiler + Really that's a stupid comment from the beginning to the end. Just to clarify one point, Greeks actually work more than french and germans. Proof : Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 07:45 Hryul wrote:
you can throw around numbers all the way you want, but it doesnt change the fact that they are simply unbelievable. again: with these numbers every worker in greece must work at least 8 hrs/day every day that isn't sat/sun and never go on vacation. ? How do you evaluate that ? There are 365 x 24 hours a year, so 8760 hours. With 8 hours a day of sleep (2920 hours) they have 5820 hours left - 2000 hours is not impossible, it only means they work a bit less than half the time they are awake. They have plenty of time for vacation (and it's an average that is heavily influenced by the numbers of hours the least productive part of Greeks economy are doing - for exemple in the least industrialized agriculture, where they have to work basically non stop without days offs).
Such a shameful display by Norway compared to the other Nordic countries!! They clearly need reforms and their oil taken away from them! (Give it to Sweden please....)
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Just to clarify, the main problem of Greece is not that they do not work enough, it is that their productivity is low, due to insufficient investment in capitals (and this is both fix capital - machine, industry - and human capital - education).
On July 12 2015 09:37 c0ldfusion wrote:
sigh we work too hard in this county
Yeah, and US workers are actually really productive.
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This chart also strikes me as absurd given what we know about how much people work in Korea.
How can Greece possibly come close to that, it doesn't make any sense.
Also, Greeks work longer than the Japanese, Canadians and Americans? I don't know man....
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The math should be as follows:
Assuming Greeks work 5/7 days in the year, minus 26 paid holidays (which in a lot of cases are not taken in full), we're looking at 235 days per year of work. If Greeks work 2042 hours per year, that divided by 235 amounts to 8.7 hours worked per day. Sounds feasible to me.
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Other EU entities such as ECB and IMF has used this exact data in their reports before, its not like its any news that Greeks are one of the hardest workers out there. Still it doesn't matter shit if your government gambles it all away does it?
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I'm not questioning the math. I'm questioning the data collection methodology.
In any sense, I went slightly off-topic and while I certainly do not think the Greeks are lazy, hours worked isn't a great indicator of productivity and doesn't mean much either way in the grand scheme of things.
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"Capitalist production is not merely the production of commodities, it is essentially the production of surplus-value. The labourer produces, not for himself, but for capital. It no longer suffices, therefore, that he should simply produce. He must produce surplus-value. That labourer alone is productive, who produces surplus-value for the capitalist, and thus works for the self-expansion of capital. If we may take an example from outside the sphere of production of material objects, a schoolmaster is a productive labourer when, in addition to belabouring the heads of his scholars, he works like a horse to enrich the school proprietor. That the latter has laid out his capital in a teaching factory, instead of in a sausage factory, does not alter the relation. Hence the notion of a productive labourer implies not merely a relation between work and useful effect, between labourer and product of labour, but also a specific, social relation of production, a relation that has sprung up historically and stamps the labourer as the direct means of creating surplus-value. To be a productive labourer is, therefore, not a piece of luck, but a misfortune."
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On July 12 2015 09:56 warding wrote:
The math should be as follows:
Assuming Greeks work 5/7 days in the year, minus 26 paid holidays (which in a lot of cases are not taken in full), we're looking at 235 days per year of work. If Greeks work 2042 hours per year, that divided by 235 amounts to 8.7 hours worked per day. Sounds feasible to me.
That's not necessarily how the math should be done, because - as I've pointed - there are a workers in Greece (way more than in more institutionnalized countries) that do not have 26 days of paid holidays nor work only 5 days a week - in the agriculture for exemple, or every self employed workers.
On July 12 2015 10:01 c0ldfusion wrote:
I'm not questioning the math. I'm questioning the data collection methodology.
In any sense, I went slightly off-topic and while I certainly do not think the Greeks are lazy, hours worked isn't a great indicator of productivity and doesn't mean much either way in the grand scheme of things.
That's because you have not been there. Greece is still "undevelopped" (altho I do not mean in a bad way) in some part, they actually do work a lot. Been there a few years ago (in the land, and not only in tourists ghettos), I've seen farmers working day in day out with XIXth century tools.
On July 12 2015 10:03 bookwyrm wrote:
"Capitalist production is not merely the production of commodities, it is essentially the production of surplus-value. The labourer produces, not for himself, but for capital. It no longer suffices, therefore, that he should simply produce. He must produce surplus-value. That labourer alone is productive, who produces surplus-value for the capitalist, and thus works for the self-expansion of capital. If we may take an example from outside the sphere of production of material objects, a schoolmaster is a productive labourer when, in addition to belabouring the heads of his scholars, he works like a horse to enrich the school proprietor. That the latter has laid out his capital in a teaching factory, instead of in a sausage factory, does not alter the relation. Hence the notion of a productive labourer implies not merely a relation between work and useful effect, between labourer and product of labour, but also a specific, social relation of production, a relation that has sprung up historically and stamps the labourer as the direct means of creating surplus-value. To be a productive labourer is, therefore, not a piece of luck, but a misfortune."
That's entirely true. I guess it's from the Capital ? But the main problem is not the capital in itself, but the fact that it is privately owned (at least, in Marx's view)
In Greece there is an Island called Ikaria with the highest life expectancy on earth, and where a big part of the population basically work full time but are self employed, and makes break whenever they want (take naps for exemple).
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I think it's worth noting that this is only possible because Greece has a very non-relaxed army that would protect the peaceful islanders in case some not so peaceful Ottomans decide to pay them a visit. The problem with these communal utopias always seems to be that the idea would fall apart pretty quickly if there wasn't some nation state backing them up.
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On July 12 2015 10:06 WhiteDog wrote:
In Greece there is an Island called Ikaria with the highest life expectancy on earth, and where a big part of the population basically work full time but are self employed, and makes break whenever they want (take naps for exemple).
if you can earn lots of foreign exchange through tourism industry, why the hell not??
the point is... who decided that productivity is such a great thing? Especially Germans who think they're so awesome because they run current account surpluses despite the fact that that's the entire reason the EZ is fucked up in the first place.. you want to unfuck the Euro? Give Germans mandatory vacations. Teach them how to smoke weed and get a sense of humor. Then you will fix the Euro instantly. Don't teach greeks to be more like germans, teach germans to be more like greeks. Give me three months and a team of hippies and I will fix the euro EZPZ
in the 19th century the germans wanted nothing more than to be greeks. it was their deep, secret shame that they weren't greeks. when did that change? big mistake
On July 12 2015 11:00 Nyxisto wrote:
I think it's worth noting that this is only possible because Greece has a very non-relaxed army that would protect the peaceful islanders in case some not so peaceful Ottomans decide to pay them a visit. The problem with these communal utopias always seems to be that the idea would fall apart pretty quickly if there wasn't some nation state backing them up.
you are gonna turn me into a second amendment leftist if you keep talking like that..
we should pass out free guns in Ferguson and see what happens... probably not what you'd expect..
more of this. we could use a lot more of this:
![[image loading]](https://rhhr.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/black20panthers202-28-69.jpg)
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On July 12 2015 11:08 bookwyrm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 10:06 WhiteDog wrote:
In Greece there is an Island called Ikaria with the highest life expectancy on earth, and where a big part of the population basically work full time but are self employed, and makes break whenever they want (take naps for exemple). if you can earn lots of foreign exchange through tourism industry, why the hell not?? the point is... who decided that productivity is such a great thing? Especially Germans who think they're so awesome because they run current account surpluses despite the fact that that's the entire reason the EZ is fucked up in the first place.. you want to unfuck the Euro? Give Germans mandatory vacations. Teach them how to smoke weed and get a sense of humor. Then you will fix the Euro instantly. Don't teach greeks to be more like germans, teach germans to be more like greeks. Give me three months and a team of hippies and I will fix the euro EZPZ
I see your point and I agree - it's a problem in itself that everything is seen from an economical standpoint, and I guess "communism" is both a critic of capitalism and a desire to abolish the economy as the whole.
But productivity is also what permits you to work less. If you are more productive, you can do more in less. It's your choice to either still work the same time to make more wealth, or work less. Greece could decide to work less with an increased productivity.
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Even if Tsakalotos chopped off his arm, Schaeuble would say "it's not enough." – anonymous EU official
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On July 12 2015 11:17 WhiteDog wrote:
But productivity is also what permits you to work less.
wrong. productivity is what permits your boss to hire fewer of you
On July 12 2015 11:17 WhiteDog wrote:Greece could decide to work less with an increased productivity.
only if the workers own the capital 
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I could live with forced vacation. I vote for bookwyrm as a Juncker replacement.
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On July 12 2015 11:20 Nyxisto wrote:
I could live with forced vacation. I vote for bookwyrm as a Juncker replacement.
my candidacy for dictator of reality is building momentum
but seriously. any proposal to fix the euro that doesn't include demands for germany to reduce its current account surplus is a stupid joke promulgated by people who know less than nothing about political economy. probably as a result of possessing graduate degrees in economics. dangerous fools the lot of them
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On July 12 2015 11:18 bookwyrm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 11:17 WhiteDog wrote:
But productivity is also what permits you to work less. wrong. productivity is what permits your boss to hire fewer of you Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 11:17 WhiteDog wrote:Greece could decide to work less with an increased productivity. only if the workers own the capital
Yeah, the problem is not the increased productivity, but the fact that the capital is owned by an individual. Communist were highly productivists, even if Marx's thought is a little more complex than the orthodoxy (the "dead work").
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it reminds me, I need to read Lafargue on "the right to be lazy". but I have a suspicion that it is a bad book
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On July 12 2015 07:25 warding wrote:
Normally used for what? Not as a way to identify which nations are lazy. If you look at productivity you'll simply find that workers in richer countries are more productive - simply because they tend to work in more capital intensive and value-creating industries.
EDIT: You can set those stats to look at only dependent employment. Greece still comes out on top of all western european countries. You can also check other stats like % of dependent workers (Men, 25-54yo) who work more than 40 hours per week (Greece: 86.1%, Germany: 67.7%, Netherlands: 54.6%).
Hours worked per day or per week means very little. My wife is from Malaysia and they've got a 46-hour work week there, meaning that if you added Malaysia to those graphs, the whole of Europe would seem incredibly lazy.
What matters is how efficient bureaucracy is, i.e. how much red tape does one need to go through to get something done. If a simple request takes four phone calls to different departments, who then have to look up stuff in badly organised or god forbid even paper files, that will not be as productive as someone who can just look up all the necessary information the customer needs on his computer because all files are stored centrally on a server which most employees have access to. Then there's still vertical hierarchy to take into account as well: having to ask the permission of superiors to sometimes do even the smallest thing, unnecessary levels of (middle) management etc.
How much someone can get done in one hour is a whole lot more important than how much time that peson spends at the workplace.
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EPT
