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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On July 11 2015 10:24 IgnE wrote:
Three more years of fantasy before the global crisis of 2018.
Well... at least Bernie Sanders will be president by then
It blows my mind that anybody seriously thinks any of this money will ever get paid back. Like you can teach the greek people to have more teutonic virtue and then they will pay you. it's almost as bad as the idea that we are going to fix the drought here in california by drinking less table water at restaurants.
But I guess the human capacity for collective self delusion really is the most powerful force in the universe. In the name of Big Other we pray, amen
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On July 11 2015 10:26 bookwyrm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2015 10:24 IgnE wrote:
Three more years of fantasy before the global crisis of 2018. Well... at least Bernie Sanders will be president by then It blows my mind that anybody seriously thinks any of this money will ever get paid back. Like you can teach the greek people to have more teutonic virtue and then they will pay you. it's almost as bad as the idea that we are going to fix the drought here in california by drinking less table water at restaurants. But I guess the human capacity for collective self delusion really is the most powerful force in the universe. In the name of Big Other we pray, amen
Payments on interest are in no small part responsible for the troubles of the Greeks. If their economy improves, then perhaps that won't be an unreasonable strain on their economy.
Government debt isn't always about profit; sometimes it's about influence even if it is a bad risk. If Greece stabilizes in the next few years, and makes regular payments on its debt without defaulting, then that will probably be fine for the creditors. The $300 billion that Greece owes is a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things. It's Italy and Spain that have trillion dollar economies that really need to be discouraged from default.
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On July 11 2015 10:18 Gorsameth wrote:Greek Parliament votes in favor of the plan. Now its up to the Eurozone Source
The biggest (and only?) hurdle that is left that they possible could discuss is the promised debt restructuring for Greece. At least parts of the German government are having hefty discussion about this and there is still a possibility that EU cannot reach a consensus as to how much debt relief Greece should get.
Overall however it looks very promising and that a deal finally 'might' be made between EU and Greece.
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btw is it just me or has this thread been surprisingly civil this past week? I'd expected at least 10 TL users to been banned/warned by now, lol.
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I highly doubt that german paliament will be a an issue. Sure it will be a problem for Merkel but she said ahead of time that if push comes to shove she'd be willing to ask for a vote of confidence and that should be enough to get whatever she needs.
One of the reasons she's been taking such a hard stance is that she'd obviously rather not have to do that and in the grand scheme of things she's less anti-greek than the majority of her party or even the average german voter. So if she was more sympathetic towards Greece she'd have an even harder time over here.
I mean the fact that Merkel and Schäuble are gaining massive popularity boosts over the past couple weeks in Germany BECAUSE of their hard stance just tells the story.
More concerned abut the baltics tbh. Yes Greece basicly agreed on the terms they were offered before the referendum but they're asking for a lot more money in return and the whole point for the baltics has been that they can't really afford to spend that kind of money all the time. Though I'll have to admit the time they're getting in news is limited and thus could very well be overblown statements to make a point.
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As Tsipras put it: "Now I have the feeling we've reached the demarcation line. From here on there is a minefield."
That goes both ways. It's not really worth the risk to push Greece harder when they already get most of what they want.
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On a lighter note, this poland ball comic on this situation I found on Reddit really captures the last few weeks.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZVqknyk.png)
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On July 11 2015 10:18 Gorsameth wrote:Greek Parliament votes in favor of the plan. Now its up to the Eurozone Source
Wow.. this show is on road!
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On July 11 2015 12:35 c0ldfusion wrote:On a lighter note, this poland ball comic on this situation I found on Reddit really captures the last few weeks. + Show Spoiler +
Yeah that's so on point (well my point of view).
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On July 11 2015 07:25 Integra wrote:
I can only take my own country (Sweden) as a comparison regarding this, our traditional parties are losing voters like flies to the National party "Sverige Demokraterna" which has their roots in the facist and nazi movement in Sweden during the 90's, and yes you guessed their entire political program is all about keeping the foreigner out and that things will be better once we stop taking in refugees etc. This party could become the second largest party by the next election kicking out 3 or 4 other Swedish parties in the process who nomally would drive discussions about environment, school and elderly care reforms.
The traditional parties have however handle the whole situation with SD incredibly bad, and they haven't even realized it yet themselves despite all the setbacks they've suffered. Also with the whole refugee's are an economical surplus gain bullshit helps a lot with making people change over to SD.
Although immigration have been the one big political question for SD in the beginning they've started branching out with just elderly care and school. For environment questions Sweden would be better off without Miljöpartiet that thinks everyone have the same ease of transport and closeness to food stores, healthcare and school as people in Stockholm, besides fuck our glorious vice prime minister Åsa Romson for blaming me for everything that's bad in the world because I'm a straight white man.
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People feel that their culture is being compromised by the introduction of refugees who are hostile to it, and very few traditional parties across Europe want to do anything about it. It's understandable that people will turn to nationalism when their (legitimate) concerns are being ignored.
There is a very slippery slope between nationalism and the fascist movement, and that should not be taken lightly. But don't blame people for having legitimate concerns that their culture is being erased by immigrants.
That said, though immigration is a serious concern that needs mainstream attention, it seems like the types of leaders who really want to address it tend to be the type who have known fascist tendencies. It's really a shame that more moderate candidates who support that position are so few and far between. That tends to push some people toward the extremists' point of view.
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On July 11 2015 11:16 Integra wrote:
btw is it just me or has this thread been surprisingly civil this past week? I'd expected at least 10 TL users to been banned/warned by now, lol.
We've got good mods around here, which helps.
Though I think a lot of the civility is due to the fact this really is theater. Greece's major tactical errors were made years ago, and there's little they can do about it. There was never a proper "Plan B" setup. They never acquired printing presses (or, very quietly, hired another country to produce enough New Drachmas as a contingency). There is no functional way to stop using the Euro when you have nothing to replace it.
Which is also why the animosity between the governments is quite real. No one is willing to stop "passing the buck". They want someone else to be blamed for the failure. Which isn't too surprising. The Post Cold War era has brought about a political class that never really has to make too serious of decisions. (Or maybe it should be "are deathly afraid of making a hard choice.") Considering so much of the EU is run by bureaucrats in Brussels, it only exacerbates the issue.
This isn't going to end well. Which is why it should have ended years ago. We're now just watching and waiting to see how much damage the politicians can inflict on their countries.
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Hmm I see a raise in VAT as one of the big proposition but isn't tax evasion one of the biggest greek problem ? Won't it just create more evasion in an economically weak country ?
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I think increasing VATs is a horrible idea. They're inherently regressive and probably going to slow economic growth even more. I don't understand why Syriza as a left-wing government doesn't introduce a wealth tax.
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On July 12 2015 01:00 LegalLord wrote:
There is a very slippery slope between nationalism and the fascist movement, and that should not be taken lightly. But don't blame people for having legitimate concerns that their culture is being erased by immigrants.
The idea that immigrants somehow could erase the culture of a country is 100% nonsense and nationalist propaganda, not a legitimate concern.
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On July 12 2015 01:55 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 01:00 LegalLord wrote:
There is a very slippery slope between nationalism and the fascist movement, and that should not be taken lightly. But don't blame people for having legitimate concerns that their culture is being erased by immigrants.
The idea that immigrants somehow could erase the culture of a country is 100% nonsense and nationalist propaganda, not a legitimate concern.
No it isn't, and frankly, the tendency to entirely ignore that concern makes people turn towards the more extremist parties for support.
When immigrants come to a country with no interest in integrating into that society (i.e. they don't learn the language, or the cultural practices) and then they try to change the ways of the new country through abuse of the legal system (like bringing Sharia law to Europe), it is reasonable to feel that the host society is being undermined in the process. The sentiment that multiculturalism is a failed experiment is widespread, even if it isn't the majority. It is not just baseless propaganda (because seldom is unfounded propaganda effective). It is legitimate concerns that are being swept under the rug.
Yes, it is true that there is a lot of fear-mongering and racist BS spouted by the anti-immigration group. Yes, there is a lot of stupidity in that general direction. But they do have a legitimate point that is not being made well in the mainstream. Because alongside the racist stupidity, there is a genuine and legitimate concern for the future of a culture that seems to be being erased. I really would like to see that be addressed more openly.
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On July 12 2015 01:55 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 01:00 LegalLord wrote:
There is a very slippery slope between nationalism and the fascist movement, and that should not be taken lightly. But don't blame people for having legitimate concerns that their culture is being erased by immigrants.
The idea that immigrants somehow could erase the culture of a country is 100% nonsense and nationalist propaganda, not a legitimate concern.
I don't know about that, you see that some (lot of) school are now serving mandatory hallal food. To prevent some debate, all religious signs are prohibited in some area, christian or islam alike. Some people in France wanted to convert old churches in Mosquees.
Anyway, even if immigration doesn't "erase" the culture of a country, if can definitly alter it in a way that it might no longer be recognizable.
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what i really dont understand is, greece is a prime example for a country where you could totally start new.
they voted for a totally new government, and are threatend to live the next decades with a lot of debt and will loss every living standard they have.
if they really make a currency change, and implement afterwards the same fucked up system again, where they create and borrow money until they cant pay their debt again - im baffled.
i mean it cant get really more bad than this in a west european state.
i say its time to start a new experiment - bring out all the economy concepts who werent really viable until now cause people wouldnt want to give up anything.
there has to be a at least a positive prospect for a country like greece. and what is it now even in the best case?
get your debt cut a third, but not as much that you ever could lift a finger without asking your creditors first?
we have a higher and higher unemployment rate over whole europe, with no prospect of it getting better, but greece should somehow make it out of the hole?
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On July 12 2015 02:31 phil.ipp wrote:
what i really dont understand is, greece is a prime example for a country where you could totally start new.
they voted for a totally new government, and are threatend to live the next decades with a lot of debt and will loss every living standard they have.
if they really make a currency change, and implement afterwards the same fucked up system again, where they create and borrow money until they cant pay their debt again - im baffled.
i mean it cant get really more bad than this in a west european state.
i say its time to start a new experiment - bring out all the economy concepts who werent really viable until now cause people wouldnt want to give up anything.
there has to be a at least a positive prospect for a country like greece. and what is it now even in the best case?
get your debt cut a third, but not as much that you ever could lift a finger without asking your creditors first?
we have a higher and higher unemployment rate over whole europe, with no prospect of it getting better, but greece should somehow make it out of the hole?
Because people are unwilling to give up what they have. Even if that way of life could never be sustained.
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but i think they are, as seen with the vote.
it justs no one really brings something new to the table.
they all talk about grexit, but no one says what this really entails.
is all debt voided then? or not? or how much? would they implement the same currency/economic system again afterwards?
maybe they didnt talk about that because it would have shed a bad light on the negotiations but they certainly had to think new strategys through and what they would do when push comes to shove.
maybe im foolish, but i want to see this shit fail hard, i want the grexit, i want that markets lose trust in the other countrys like spain/portugal/italy. i want this whole system collapsed, so people have to start their brain after decades of doing nothing and bring humans a step further, and design something better than what we have now.
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EPT
