EPTAnyway, it looks like optimism is back in the media on an agreement being reached.
I personally feel like it's not over yet. There should be a sizable contingent among the Greeks that is not okay with the current terms.
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 185
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c0ldfusion
United States8293 Posts
Anyway, it looks like optimism is back in the media on an agreement being reached. I personally feel like it's not over yet. There should be a sizable contingent among the Greeks that is not okay with the current terms. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
1) Greece accepts the proposal 2) Greece reforms for real, get ride of the taxe evasion 3) General consensus where the rest of EU agree the Greece did a real effort in cutting the corruption and the evasion 4) Debt cut 5) Greece back in business. But i'm pretty sure we will have deadlocks at each step for the couple of year to come. On July 11 2015 00:45 LegalLord wrote: Too bad for them, even if they do have a solid moral basis for disagreement. Reality trumps rhetoric, and the fact is that Greece has little room for bargaining right now. Personally I think that the EZ has way more to lose from a Grexit than they let on (because the rest of the PIGS could follow in Greece's footsteps), but that issue is not as time-critical as Greece's very current credit crisis. In short, they don't have time on their side, and the terms of this arrangement just reflect who has a bargaining advantage. Not sure about that, Grexit would be, imho, the worst thing to encourage the other, because Greece would be thrown into chaos for decades, and pretty sure the EU wouldn't be to kind toward them after the whole act, especially to make exemple of them toward Spain, Irland and Portugal. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
German media considers the new deal to be acceptable but sees some other issues. 1) There are a number of nations in Europe, easpecially in the Northeast (Finland, Baltics) against any further help and want to see Greece gone. 2) The role of the IMF: Merkel wants the IMF to be part of the next help program, but won't be able to cut debt (the German parliament including her own party would shut that down). In contrast, the IMF says, they will only be part of a new deal, if "the debt is bearable", which means debt cuts by their definition. And their rules are strictly binding on that one. German media now speculates about either some debt restructuring, allowing both sides to keep their face, or a solution that involves the IMF only be part in an advisory position in the future. So for once, it is not Greece that is seen as the problem, holding back the negotiations. I for once would welcome any "solution", that is somehow final for now. Pushing it back further and further is not helping either side. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2015/7/10/1436539338837/6510f0f5-210e-49e5-bb5e-2b6704ef4aa5-bestSizeAvailable.png?w=620&q=85&auto=format&sharp=10&s=80fc56f650486ee7d4f3635c045a9f27) | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On July 11 2015 00:47 Faust852 wrote: Not sure about that, Grexit would be, imho, the worst thing to encourage the other, because Greece would be thrown into chaos for decades, and pretty sure the EU wouldn't be to kind toward them after the whole act, especially to make exemple of them toward Spain, Irland and Portugal. Well it would be hardest on Greece because they would try to make an example of the first country to leave. One way or the other, Greece is really just a drop in the bucket; $300 billion is no crisis for an economy of $15 trillion. The other three/four economies would be harder to write off like that, because they have GDP and debts in the trillions of dollars. Not to mention a Grexit would undermine the Euro project in general. Capital crunch doesn't do wonders for the other nations either, which means either way they will have quite a bit of hardship. On a somewhat related note: is Ireland still considered one of the high-risk economies of the EZ? I haven't seen "PIIGS" (Portugal Ireland Italy Greece Spain) used for a while; seems that most people use just "PIGS" these days. On July 11 2015 01:06 Faust852 wrote: interesting pool about who is to blame depending on the country + Show Spoiler + Looks to me like a cultural divide along Germanic/Nordic vs. Western Europeans. The latter seems to blame Greece less. | ||
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Saumure
France404 Posts
On July 11 2015 01:09 LegalLord wrote: Looks to me like a cultural divide along Germanic/Nordic vs. Western Europeans. The latter seems to blame Greece less. Excuse me, would you mind saying where you are from? | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On July 11 2015 01:27 Saumure wrote: Excuse me, would you mind saying where you are from? I currently live in the United States. Ethnically, I'm Russian. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On July 10 2015 23:13 Alcathous wrote: I'm from the Netherlands, you know, the 'bad cop' Germany can point to when it tries to play 'Good Cop'. Sorry for being educated and picking a name from the Iliad. Just sounds cooler than something like 'lord_nibbler' and it hoped it would make me look intelligent, rather than a lazy Greek. I guess I should have given it more thought. You'd never know some bike-stealing fat-dripping sausage-nibbling German would come out and attack me for it. User was temp banned for this post. Looks like someone ended up making their own Grexit | ||
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c0ldfusion
United States8293 Posts
This is _probably_ not a great thing for ordinary Greeks but they don't have an immediate political alternative. One can only hope that the rest of the Eurogroup will accept Tspras' generous offerings. | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2781 Posts
What Greece needs is a sustained, public and harsh crackdown on tax evasion and corruption. Greek doctor taking "fakelaki"? One month in jail and serious fine. DMV person taking bribe, one month in jail and fired. IRS offical not doing their work, fired. Push it out in the media, do undercover stings, tell people to report and act on it. Do it for years. Then there will be change. Corruption is one of the worst threats against modern soicety and its much harder to root out than it is to implement. If Swedish history is correct any kind of cultural change takes pretty draconian measures to implement so better start going at it. | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
So far 230 billion euro has been payed to Greece however only 27 of those has actually gone to something else than keeping the banks afloat. A minuscule amount of it has actually gone to restructure Greece or help its people. It looks good now though since both sides have done compromise by Greece accepting an earlier proposal and EU agreeing to restructure Greece mountain of debt. However if this new money will keep going to the banks and no improvement is seen for the ordinary populus of Greece before the next election they will probably make sure that Greece leaves EU by electing someone like the Golden Dawn party. And if this happens we will have new definition of "political unstability". I can only take my own country (Sweden) as a comparison regarding this, our traditional parties are losing voters like flies to the National party "Sverige Demokraterna" which has their roots in the facist and nazi movement in Sweden during the 90's, and yes you guessed their entire political program is all about keeping the foreigner out and that things will be better once we stop taking in refugees etc. This party could become the second largest party by the next election kicking out 3 or 4 other Swedish parties in the process who nomally would drive discussions about environment, school and elderly care reforms. The entire political landscape of EU is being re-written literally and I don't think EU as an entity can exist if this keeps happening. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9297 Posts
On July 11 2015 06:49 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: What Greece needs is a sustained, public and harsh crackdown on tax evasion and corruption. Greek doctor taking "fakelaki"? One month in jail and serious fine. DMV person taking bribe, one month in jail and fired. IRS offical not doing their work, fired. It's a common practice in whole Eastern Europe and even severe punishments won't fix it without some sort of long-term social campaign. It is a cultural thing. The doctor (or nurse or some official) doesn't blackmail the citizen telling him he won't help him unless he buys him a bottle of good alcohol or gives him a small amout of cash. People have that stupid mentality that makes them believe a doctor won't do his job because they didn't pay him. They think a small bribe will motivate the doctor to do his best because they gave him something in return (favor for a favor). It leads to a pathology in public sector where everyone is giving and expecting those small bribes and no one is blaming anyone. | ||
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warding
Portugal2395 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://oinsurgente.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/greececountrypositions.jpg) Pretty clear divide between the Roman empire and the barbarian peoples.  | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On July 11 2015 08:14 warding wrote: Thought this was a cool image showing each stakeholders' position on Grexit: + Show Spoiler + Pretty clear divide between the Roman empire and the barbarian peoples. I don't believe you! + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://global.handelsblatt.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Tsipras-Merkel-DPA.jpg) Merkel clearly loves him, she's even serving him coffee! | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 11 2015 08:14 warding wrote: Thought this was a cool image showing each stakeholders' position on Grexit: + Show Spoiler + Pretty clear divide between the Roman empire and the barbarian peoples. Also seems like a divide between good weather and bad weather. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22348 Posts
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bookwyrm
United States722 Posts
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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