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On February 26 2022 06:40 Slydie wrote: I have been thinking... The Ukrainians have every reason to unite and do everything they can to fight back. But what do the Russian soldiers fight for? How long can they hang in there with dwindling morale and international preasure? Elite units are great at quick, efficient and well planned operations, but occupying an enormous country for the foreseeable future is a completely different ballgame.
I am starting to believe Putin screwed up, we could even be witnessing another war similar to the 1939 winter war with Finland, which USSR lost in humiliating fashion.
Who knows... My guess is that a major part of the forces involved thought they were going on a military exercise and got blindsided by the invasion order, which I assume is not too great for morale. I can also imagine that they were subjected to some variation of the official Russian propaganda that they were going to "liberate" Ukraine from its genocidal Nazi regime. But I assume it would be a unpleasant surprise to find out that the population is not very keen on getting "liberated".
That being said, I'm sure there is a portion of the army that is simply motivated by nationalist and imperialist ideas of expanding the motherland. I also assume that most "elite" units have no ethical issues with a blatant invasion and don't need any motivation beyond just "doing their job".
Could also be part of why Putin is apparently deploying Chechenia soldiers now. From what I understand they have been used to do his dirty work in the past and probably have less moral issues with the invasion.
Still, I would advise caution to call this a disaster for Russia already. This was is still young, but Ukraine can certainly be proud of its defence.
On February 26 2022 06:49 Oukka wrote: EDIT: talks of possible negotiations being now reported by at least BBC and the Guardian. I saw Israel being flashed as one possible location/mediator, Russians obviously suggesting Minsk but that seems no different than Moscow at this point.
Things I've heard on "let's negotiate" throughout the past day:
1. Zelensky saying "we can talk about Ukrainian neutrality." 2. Russia proposing "let's do Minsk." 3. Ukraine saying "how about Warsaw?" 4. The line of communication stalling in a way that suggests that February 25th is not the day for peace talks, but that Feb 26th might be it. 5. What you just posted above.
Thinking what would be neutral-ish places for talks - places that come to mind for me are Rome, Berlin, Athens, and Ankara. Israel is an interesting suggestion, though a bit out of the way and probably a little suspect to be the point for settling a European dispute.
Berlin and Ankara seem the choices there. Neither Italy nor Greece seem like great choices. Budapest is another option.
On February 26 2022 06:49 Oukka wrote: EDIT: talks of possible negotiations being now reported by at least BBC and the Guardian. I saw Israel being flashed as one possible location/mediator, Russians obviously suggesting Minsk but that seems no different than Moscow at this point.
Things I've heard on "let's negotiate" throughout the past day:
1. Zelensky saying "we can talk about Ukrainian neutrality." 2. Russia proposing "let's do Minsk." 3. Ukraine saying "how about Warsaw?" 4. The line of communication stalling in a way that suggests that February 25th is not the day for peace talks, but that Feb 26th might be it. 5. What you just posted above.
Thinking what would be neutral-ish places for talks - places that come to mind for me are Rome, Berlin, Athens, and Ankara. Israel is an interesting suggestion, though a bit out of the way and probably a little suspect to be the point for settling a European dispute.
My utterly unsubstantiated guess is that at least the western EU capitals might be off because the most recent restrictions. Putin and Lavrov aren't under EU travel ban I guess, but other top brass from Russia would be. Maybe Macron goes rogue and organises something in France given he was still talking to Putin to this day, but that seems outlandish.
I don't actually know about modern day Russian-Israeli relations, but at times Soviet Union at least was somewhat close to them. Ukraine I think even more so. Also Israel would be symbolic place given all the Putin's de-nazification bravado.
On February 26 2022 06:49 Oukka wrote: EDIT: talks of possible negotiations being now reported by at least BBC and the Guardian. I saw Israel being flashed as one possible location/mediator, Russians obviously suggesting Minsk but that seems no different than Moscow at this point.
Things I've heard on "let's negotiate" throughout the past day:
1. Zelensky saying "we can talk about Ukrainian neutrality." 2. Russia proposing "let's do Minsk." 3. Ukraine saying "how about Warsaw?" 4. The line of communication stalling in a way that suggests that February 25th is not the day for peace talks, but that Feb 26th might be it. 5. What you just posted above.
Thinking what would be neutral-ish places for talks - places that come to mind for me are Rome, Berlin, Athens, and Ankara. Israel is an interesting suggestion, though a bit out of the way and probably a little suspect to be the point for settling a European dispute.
Because if there's anything the last two years have taught us, it's that you need to be in the same room to meet...
On February 26 2022 06:49 Oukka wrote: EDIT: talks of possible negotiations being now reported by at least BBC and the Guardian. I saw Israel being flashed as one possible location/mediator, Russians obviously suggesting Minsk but that seems no different than Moscow at this point.
Things I've heard on "let's negotiate" throughout the past day:
1. Zelensky saying "we can talk about Ukrainian neutrality." 2. Russia proposing "let's do Minsk." 3. Ukraine saying "how about Warsaw?" 4. The line of communication stalling in a way that suggests that February 25th is not the day for peace talks, but that Feb 26th might be it. 5. What you just posted above.
Thinking what would be neutral-ish places for talks - places that come to mind for me are Rome, Berlin, Athens, and Ankara. Israel is an interesting suggestion, though a bit out of the way and probably a little suspect to be the point for settling a European dispute.
My utterly unsubstantiated guess is that at least the western EU capitals might be off because the most recent restrictions. Putin and Lavrov aren't under EU travel ban I guess, but other top brass from Russia would be. Maybe Macron goes rogue and organises something in France given he was still talking to Putin to this day, but that seems outlandish.
I don't actually know about modern day Russian-Israeli relations, but at times Soviet Union at least was somewhat close to them. Ukraine I think even more so. Also Israel would be symbolic place given all the Putin's de-nazification bravado.
Israel and Russia are on decent enough terms these days as well. It definitely has the right balance of semi-neutrality to host the talks, it just seems like the kind of place that the European leadership would take exception to legitimizing as a place to put up as a central negotiator. Though on the other hand, a little bit of not-quite-approval is probably a good thing for a mediator to have.
Turkey would probably be ideal if it weren't a member of NATO. It's still not bad.
On February 26 2022 06:49 Oukka wrote: EDIT: talks of possible negotiations being now reported by at least BBC and the Guardian. I saw Israel being flashed as one possible location/mediator, Russians obviously suggesting Minsk but that seems no different than Moscow at this point.
Things I've heard on "let's negotiate" throughout the past day:
1. Zelensky saying "we can talk about Ukrainian neutrality." 2. Russia proposing "let's do Minsk." 3. Ukraine saying "how about Warsaw?" 4. The line of communication stalling in a way that suggests that February 25th is not the day for peace talks, but that Feb 26th might be it. 5. What you just posted above.
Thinking what would be neutral-ish places for talks - places that come to mind for me are Rome, Berlin, Athens, and Ankara. Israel is an interesting suggestion, though a bit out of the way and probably a little suspect to be the point for settling a European dispute.
Because if there's anything the last two years have taught us, it's that you need to be in the same room to meet...
They can talk over the phone (and intermittently have) but an in-person meeting is more of a suitable venue for writing up an agreement.
On February 26 2022 06:40 Slydie wrote: I have been thinking... The Ukrainians have every reason to unite and do everything they can to fight back. But what do the Russian soldiers fight for? How long can they hang in there with dwindling morale and international preasure? Elite units are great at quick, efficient and well planned operations, but occupying an enormous country for the foreseeable future is a completely different ballgame.
I am starting to believe Putin screwed up, we could even be witnessing another war similar to the 1939 winter war with Finland, which USSR lost in humiliating fashion.
Who knows... My guess is that a major part of the forces involved thought they were going on a military exercise and got blindsided by the invasion order, which I assume is not too great for morale. I can also imagine that they were subjected to some variation of the official Russian propaganda that they were going to "liberate" Ukraine from its genocidal Nazi regime. But I assume it would be a unpleasant surprise to find out that the population is not very keen on getting "liberated".
That being said, I'm sure there is a portion of the army that is simply motivated by nationalist and imperialist ideas of expanding the motherland. I also assume that most "elite" units have no ethical issues with a blatant invasion and don't need any motivation beyond just "doing their job".
Could also be part of why Putin is apparently deploying Chechenia soldiers now. From what I understand they have been used to do his dirty work in the past and probably have less moral issues with the invasion.
Still, I would advise caution to call this a disaster for Russia already. This was is still young, but Ukraine can certainly be proud of its defence.
It's not a distaster for Putin yet, I agree, but it's a lot better than I'd hoped. He's haemorrhaging support every day that his tanks are over the border and not in a parade. He's definitely miscalculated.
He's still likely to win, for a given value of "win", but it will be costly and he surely can't go further without his home front blowing up. People are talking about this like it's Hitler v. Poland and he'll soon have everything that's not NATO'd down, but imo it's a messier iraq where the invaders barely even manage the initial push. It doesn't leave the invaders in a strong position at all.
On February 26 2022 06:49 Oukka wrote: EDIT: talks of possible negotiations being now reported by at least BBC and the Guardian. I saw Israel being flashed as one possible location/mediator, Russians obviously suggesting Minsk but that seems no different than Moscow at this point.
Things I've heard on "let's negotiate" throughout the past day:
1. Zelensky saying "we can talk about Ukrainian neutrality." 2. Russia proposing "let's do Minsk." 3. Ukraine saying "how about Warsaw?" 4. The line of communication stalling in a way that suggests that February 25th is not the day for peace talks, but that Feb 26th might be it. 5. What you just posted above.
Thinking what would be neutral-ish places for talks - places that come to mind for me are Rome, Berlin, Athens, and Ankara. Israel is an interesting suggestion, though a bit out of the way and probably a little suspect to be the point for settling a European dispute.
My utterly unsubstantiated guess is that at least the western EU capitals might be off because the most recent restrictions. Putin and Lavrov aren't under EU travel ban I guess, but other top brass from Russia would be. Maybe Macron goes rogue and organises something in France given he was still talking to Putin to this day, but that seems outlandish.
I don't actually know about modern day Russian-Israeli relations, but at times Soviet Union at least was somewhat close to them. Ukraine I think even more so. Also Israel would be symbolic place given all the Putin's de-nazification bravado.
Israel and Russia are on decent enough terms these days as well. It definitely has the right balance of semi-neutrality to host the talks, it just seems like the kind of place that the European leadership would take exception to legitimizing as a place to put up as a central negotiator. Though on the other hand, a little bit of not-quite-approval is probably a good thing for a mediator to have.
Turkey would probably be ideal if it weren't a member of NATO. It's still not bad.
On February 26 2022 06:49 Oukka wrote: EDIT: talks of possible negotiations being now reported by at least BBC and the Guardian. I saw Israel being flashed as one possible location/mediator, Russians obviously suggesting Minsk but that seems no different than Moscow at this point.
Things I've heard on "let's negotiate" throughout the past day:
1. Zelensky saying "we can talk about Ukrainian neutrality." 2. Russia proposing "let's do Minsk." 3. Ukraine saying "how about Warsaw?" 4. The line of communication stalling in a way that suggests that February 25th is not the day for peace talks, but that Feb 26th might be it. 5. What you just posted above.
Thinking what would be neutral-ish places for talks - places that come to mind for me are Rome, Berlin, Athens, and Ankara. Israel is an interesting suggestion, though a bit out of the way and probably a little suspect to be the point for settling a European dispute.
Because if there's anything the last two years have taught us, it's that you need to be in the same room to meet...
They can talk over the phone (and intermittently have) but an in-person meeting is more of a suitable venue for writing up an agreement.
I wonder why China doesn't offer to mediate/host? At least superficially it seems like a cheap pr win. They'd get to look like 'grownups' and also push their 'respect sovereignty' story. And both China and Russia should be happy about talks outside the western sphere of influence. I guess China might risk losing face if the talks don't advance or there are significant violations of possible ceasefire agreements, but even then they'd get to say: "Look, we tried to get them to talk it out"
China (and India and the UAE) abstained from a UN Security Council vote to condemn Russia. This reporter says that Western diplomats managed to convince China to abstain. Russia (which vetoed it of course) is very isolated on the public stage right now. Not necessarily a shock because China already stayed on this line, but it's something.
On February 26 2022 04:57 Oukka wrote: The clarification on that was reported already at around 12:30 GMT by for example BBC. They are not taking minors, but over 60yos can volunteer.
I highly doubt the BBC will mention minors are being armed. From the videos I've seen there are crates out in the open and you just go up to some guy and they give you the gun an ammunition. Not like they were checking for id's or writing down who they gave automatic weapons too.
They had eight years to prepare the defenses of the city. Under the pretense that they were invaded by Russia large sums of money were pumped into their military complex by NATO member states and instead of defenses went all into the pockets of the Kiev elites. How else can you explain telling your own civilians to kamikaze into Russian forces barely 24h hours into active operations?
They haven't deployed any modern equipment, basically using 30 year old tech and feeling out international reactions while they take over the part of the country that kind of doesn't care if they are there so they are being very very careful not to touch the civilian population. Any civilian carrying arms is not a civilian and will not be treated like a civilian.
When Russia is done cleaning up the forces in eastern Ukraine and Kiev do you really think they will be careful not to use too much force in western Ukraine? Resistance and open hostility towards Russia gets you the same treatment the USA would give you. Shock and awe carpet bombing and long range artillery for days and days after which they walk over the ruins while whistling. Its sick and perverted to sacrifice the population of western Ukraine so you can feel good at your keyboard typing away in your first world bubble about 'sticking it to Putin'. Those people are going to have the same kind of time the Iraqis, Syrians, Lybians, Afganies had with the US. Not a good one.
Your government handing you molotov cocktails to throw at professional soldiers is not stunning and brave. It gets you killed to stir up international sympathy. After one fucking day, thats the big plan. Go your your bunker and sacrifice the people.
I hope, for your sake, that you're getting paid to post this stuff, and don't actually believe it.
And that your country is never in the situation Ukraine finds itself today.
My country was in the situation Ukraine is in today. And paid for it, dearly.
Also. Judging by the amount of logical fallacies being flung around while quoting me its obvious quite a few of you are nervous about 'your team' not winning and don't know how to react when there are multiple opinions. Its not about tribalism its about looking at the facts on the ground and coming to your own opinion based on a wide spectrum of sources. Saying that a minority coming to power through a coup and enforcing their views on everyone through force will end badly, admittedly, did get me labeled as a Putin bot. But guess what, I was right. And you can try to character assassinate me all you want it just shows how little substance your arguments have.
Because in the end: It's not propaganda if its true.
You're not the only people allowed to post here, there are many people lurking in these threads that are too scared to voice their opinion.
edit: not really aimed at you Oukka, sigh... I used to care less about the zealots
In what sense was Serbia/the former Yugoslavia in the same position Ukraine is today? Would you care to elaborate as I’ve seen allusions here but I’m rather in the dark as to how direct the parallels are.
On February 25 2022 23:49 LegalLord wrote: There's been quite a lot of noise about potential negotiations for a ceasefire in Russian news for about the last 10 hours. The concrete proposal seems to be "let's sit down in Minsk" which I suspect is meant to be symbolic.
Is the invasion going that badly? Oo
There is an extreme amount of botting and shilling going on now on Russian channels, though that's normal. This morning they started handing out automatic rifles in Kiev to civilians and are trying to form their own Volkssturm. Opposition MP's from the Ukrainian parliament are asking for the government to step down, a few of them openly offering themselves to Putin to become the next President of the Ukraine.
Forces loyal to the Kiev government bombed bridges to slow the advance into the city but as I mentioned in the first sentence, its kind of over if they had to resort to handing automatic weapons out to civilians and forming a Volkssturm. Handing out Molotov cocktails to people... its just... not what a stable government does.
Volkssturm, really? Right off the provided script... you paid off Russian troll, that you are being tolerrated here is just abysmal.
Two days ago they started conscription of military reserve males aged 18 to 60.
Tell me what other government has done this since Germany 1945. What word is used for the above mentioned give guns to 14 - 85 year olds and I'll use that one. Child soldiers? Geriatric soldiers? What?
The Soviet Union, you dimwit?
So the Kiev government is emulating... the Soviet Union? An interesting take. Is there a Russian word for arming civilians with no combat experience? I'll use that one, seems more fitting here to be honest.
Choke on putin's cock that you're sucking so eagerly.
Kiev hosted one of my most memorable Dota events (Kiev Major 2017). Hard to believe what Ive been reading. Houses are getting shelled at random, apparently. It’s so sad.
In the name of fairness we need to take the Russian interpretation of the events into account - that they are selflessly saving the Ukrainian population from neo-nazis... and drug addicts:
On February 26 2022 04:57 Oukka wrote: The clarification on that was reported already at around 12:30 GMT by for example BBC. They are not taking minors, but over 60yos can volunteer.
I highly doubt the BBC will mention minors are being armed. From the videos I've seen there are crates out in the open and you just go up to some guy and they give you the gun an ammunition. Not like they were checking for id's or writing down who they gave automatic weapons too.
They had eight years to prepare the defenses of the city. Under the pretense that they were invaded by Russia large sums of money were pumped into their military complex by NATO member states and instead of defenses went all into the pockets of the Kiev elites. How else can you explain telling your own civilians to kamikaze into Russian forces barely 24h hours into active operations?
They haven't deployed any modern equipment, basically using 30 year old tech and feeling out international reactions while they take over the part of the country that kind of doesn't care if they are there so they are being very very careful not to touch the civilian population. Any civilian carrying arms is not a civilian and will not be treated like a civilian.
When Russia is done cleaning up the forces in eastern Ukraine and Kiev do you really think they will be careful not to use too much force in western Ukraine? Resistance and open hostility towards Russia gets you the same treatment the USA would give you. Shock and awe carpet bombing and long range artillery for days and days after which they walk over the ruins while whistling. Its sick and perverted to sacrifice the population of western Ukraine so you can feel good at your keyboard typing away in your first world bubble about 'sticking it to Putin'. Those people are going to have the same kind of time the Iraqis, Syrians, Lybians, Afganies had with the US. Not a good one.
Your government handing you molotov cocktails to throw at professional soldiers is not stunning and brave. It gets you killed to stir up international sympathy. After one fucking day, thats the big plan. Go your your bunker and sacrifice the people.
I hope, for your sake, that you're getting paid to post this stuff, and don't actually believe it.
And that your country is never in the situation Ukraine finds itself today.
My country was in the situation Ukraine is in today. And paid for it, dearly.
Also. Judging by the amount of logical fallacies being flung around while quoting me its obvious quite a few of you are nervous about 'your team' not winning and don't know how to react when there are multiple opinions. Its not about tribalism its about looking at the facts on the ground and coming to your own opinion based on a wide spectrum of sources. Saying that a minority coming to power through a coup and enforcing their views on everyone through force will end badly, admittedly, did get me labeled as a Putin bot. But guess what, I was right. And you can try to character assassinate me all you want it just shows how little substance your arguments have.
Because in the end: It's not propaganda if its true.
You're not the only people allowed to post here, there are many people lurking in these threads that are too scared to voice their opinion.
edit: not really aimed at you Oukka, sigh... I used to care less about the zealots
In what sense was Serbia/the former Yugoslavia in the same position Ukraine is today? Would you care to elaborate as I’ve seen allusions here but I’m rather in the dark as to how direct the parallels are.
Ethnic mess of a country, war in Europe, attacked for geopolitics under the guise of humanitarian purposes. Really fairly similar situation, hopefully less damage in the end.
On February 26 2022 04:57 Oukka wrote: The clarification on that was reported already at around 12:30 GMT by for example BBC. They are not taking minors, but over 60yos can volunteer.
I highly doubt the BBC will mention minors are being armed. From the videos I've seen there are crates out in the open and you just go up to some guy and they give you the gun an ammunition. Not like they were checking for id's or writing down who they gave automatic weapons too.
They had eight years to prepare the defenses of the city. Under the pretense that they were invaded by Russia large sums of money were pumped into their military complex by NATO member states and instead of defenses went all into the pockets of the Kiev elites. How else can you explain telling your own civilians to kamikaze into Russian forces barely 24h hours into active operations?
They haven't deployed any modern equipment, basically using 30 year old tech and feeling out international reactions while they take over the part of the country that kind of doesn't care if they are there so they are being very very careful not to touch the civilian population. Any civilian carrying arms is not a civilian and will not be treated like a civilian.
When Russia is done cleaning up the forces in eastern Ukraine and Kiev do you really think they will be careful not to use too much force in western Ukraine? Resistance and open hostility towards Russia gets you the same treatment the USA would give you. Shock and awe carpet bombing and long range artillery for days and days after which they walk over the ruins while whistling. Its sick and perverted to sacrifice the population of western Ukraine so you can feel good at your keyboard typing away in your first world bubble about 'sticking it to Putin'. Those people are going to have the same kind of time the Iraqis, Syrians, Lybians, Afganies had with the US. Not a good one.
Your government handing you molotov cocktails to throw at professional soldiers is not stunning and brave. It gets you killed to stir up international sympathy. After one fucking day, thats the big plan. Go your your bunker and sacrifice the people.
I hope, for your sake, that you're getting paid to post this stuff, and don't actually believe it.
And that your country is never in the situation Ukraine finds itself today.
My country was in the situation Ukraine is in today. And paid for it, dearly.
Also. Judging by the amount of logical fallacies being flung around while quoting me its obvious quite a few of you are nervous about 'your team' not winning and don't know how to react when there are multiple opinions. Its not about tribalism its about looking at the facts on the ground and coming to your own opinion based on a wide spectrum of sources. Saying that a minority coming to power through a coup and enforcing their views on everyone through force will end badly, admittedly, did get me labeled as a Putin bot. But guess what, I was right. And you can try to character assassinate me all you want it just shows how little substance your arguments have.
Because in the end: It's not propaganda if its true. book You're not the only people allowed to post here, there are many people lurking in these threads that are too scared to voice their opinion.
edit: not really aimed at you Oukka, sigh... I used to care less about the zealots
In what sense was Serbia/the former Yugoslavia in the same position Ukraine is today? Would you care to elaborate as I’ve seen allusions here but I’m rather in the dark as to how direct the parallels are.
Ethnic mess of a country, war in Europe, attacked for geopolitics under the guise of humanitarian purposes. Really fairly similar situation, hopefully less damage in the end.
Huh? That's some crazy rewriting of history. Sounds like you drank the Milosevic cool aid. Serbia attacked its neighbors in an attempt to maintain its control over them under the guise of being Yugoslavia. That went wrong, so they moved on to genocide.
*That* is when humanitarian/peacekeeping UN forces moved in and things were still equally fucked up for quite a while, most notably Srebrenica.
How is that even remotely similar to Ukraine today? If you tried making that point 8 years ago... maybe, but even then you'd have to do a better job of showing that the Ukrainian government was willfully and repeatedly committing human rights violations against ethnic minorities.
On February 26 2022 04:57 Oukka wrote: The clarification on that was reported already at around 12:30 GMT by for example BBC. They are not taking minors, but over 60yos can volunteer.
I highly doubt the BBC will mention minors are being armed. From the videos I've seen there are crates out in the open and you just go up to some guy and they give you the gun an ammunition. Not like they were checking for id's or writing down who they gave automatic weapons too.
They had eight years to prepare the defenses of the city. Under the pretense that they were invaded by Russia large sums of money were pumped into their military complex by NATO member states and instead of defenses went all into the pockets of the Kiev elites. How else can you explain telling your own civilians to kamikaze into Russian forces barely 24h hours into active operations?
They haven't deployed any modern equipment, basically using 30 year old tech and feeling out international reactions while they take over the part of the country that kind of doesn't care if they are there so they are being very very careful not to touch the civilian population. Any civilian carrying arms is not a civilian and will not be treated like a civilian.
When Russia is done cleaning up the forces in eastern Ukraine and Kiev do you really think they will be careful not to use too much force in western Ukraine? Resistance and open hostility towards Russia gets you the same treatment the USA would give you. Shock and awe carpet bombing and long range artillery for days and days after which they walk over the ruins while whistling. Its sick and perverted to sacrifice the population of western Ukraine so you can feel good at your keyboard typing away in your first world bubble about 'sticking it to Putin'. Those people are going to have the same kind of time the Iraqis, Syrians, Lybians, Afganies had with the US. Not a good one.
Your government handing you molotov cocktails to throw at professional soldiers is not stunning and brave. It gets you killed to stir up international sympathy. After one fucking day, thats the big plan. Go your your bunker and sacrifice the people.
I hope, for your sake, that you're getting paid to post this stuff, and don't actually believe it.
And that your country is never in the situation Ukraine finds itself today.
My country was in the situation Ukraine is in today. And paid for it, dearly.
Also. Judging by the amount of logical fallacies being flung around while quoting me its obvious quite a few of you are nervous about 'your team' not winning and don't know how to react when there are multiple opinions. Its not about tribalism its about looking at the facts on the ground and coming to your own opinion based on a wide spectrum of sources. Saying that a minority coming to power through a coup and enforcing their views on everyone through force will end badly, admittedly, did get me labeled as a Putin bot. But guess what, I was right. And you can try to character assassinate me all you want it just shows how little substance your arguments have.
Because in the end: It's not propaganda if its true.
You're not the only people allowed to post here, there are many people lurking in these threads that are too scared to voice their opinion.
edit: not really aimed at you Oukka, sigh... I used to care less about the zealots
In what sense was Serbia/the former Yugoslavia in the same position Ukraine is today? Would you care to elaborate as I’ve seen allusions here but I’m rather in the dark as to how direct the parallels are.
Ethnic mess of a country, war in Europe, attacked for geopolitics under the guise of humanitarian purposes. Really fairly similar situation, hopefully less damage in the end.
Whether one agrees with how NATO interceded, there were pretty bloody large scale hot conflicts and atrocities committed. Whatever conflicts there are in Ukraine pale into insignificance against what happened there, in scale anyway.
And the ostensible peacekeeper in the current scenario is brazenly expansionist in rhetoric and action and isn’t exactly hiding it. Hell there’s even a wee bit of sabre rattling about the likes of those uppity Finns.
I mean they’re comparable if the sole metrics of comparison are there being a conflict, ethnic tension and a foreign power(s) being involved.
On February 26 2022 05:12 SC-Shield wrote: Does anyone have any insights how today went in Ukraine in terms of casualties and balance of forces? Our PM here sounded a bit skeptical, that Zelenskiy is in a bunker and that PM may not see him again in 48 hours. I'm not sure if overly dramatic or if it's that bad...
Zelensky and all top government officials are not hiding, major of Kharkiv is also with the people, try to imagine something similar by kremlin?
Zelensky already won my vote for the next elections and hopefully a simple comedian can crash a dictator, what a story it will be
I've seen a bunch (about 20-30 only today) of bloodbath videos with demolished russian tanks/heavy armor/grads/dead soldiers etc, sharing just a single one (Irpen town, 20 km from Kyiv), but be careful it's a brutal one + Show Spoiler +
Also got an interesting info from Crimea, reports about 50% of new conscript forces deserter indicating low morale
Russian forces were trying to get into Kharkiv two days in a row and both times were repelled with heavy casualties, meanwhile kremlin officials reports 0 casualties, can you fucking imagine that? They don't give a shit about their own people
If zelensky was a Dutch politician I'd vote for him without a doubt. He and the Ukrainians (including you) are heroes to me. Good luck and know that even though many governments in the EU are cowards there are many in Europe who fully support you including maximum sanctions and military support.
On February 25 2022 23:49 LegalLord wrote: There's been quite a lot of noise about potential negotiations for a ceasefire in Russian news for about the last 10 hours. The concrete proposal seems to be "let's sit down in Minsk" which I suspect is meant to be symbolic.
Is the invasion going that badly? Oo
There is an extreme amount of botting and shilling going on now on Russian channels, though that's normal. This morning they started handing out automatic rifles in Kiev to civilians and are trying to form their own Volkssturm. Opposition MP's from the Ukrainian parliament are asking for the government to step down, a few of them openly offering themselves to Putin to become the next President of the Ukraine.
Forces loyal to the Kiev government bombed bridges to slow the advance into the city but as I mentioned in the first sentence, its kind of over if they had to resort to handing automatic weapons out to civilians and forming a Volkssturm. Handing out Molotov cocktails to people... its just... not what a stable government does.
Volkssturm, really? Right off the provided script... you paid off Russian troll, that you are being tolerrated here is just abysmal.
Two days ago they started conscription of military reserve males aged 18 to 60.
Tell me what other government has done this since Germany 1945. What word is used for the above mentioned give guns to 14 - 85 year olds and I'll use that one. Child soldiers? Geriatric soldiers? What?
The Soviet Union, you dimwit?
So the Kiev government is emulating... the Soviet Union? An interesting take. Is there a Russian word for arming civilians with no combat experience? I'll use that one, seems more fitting here to be honest.
Choke on putin's cock that you're sucking so eagerly.
You seem stressed. Deep breaths.
Anyway. Regarding the guns handed out in Kiev today. It didnt take long for the paranoia to kick in and from the looks of it there were at least three different shootouts happening in different parts of Kiev between armed militias believing that the other militias were Russian infiltrators. Armed robberies. Ita going to be very difficult and dangerous for their own army to move inside Kiev...
@Acrofales. Indeed, just like the Ukraine we had our own province of Kosovo that had terrorist groups armed and funded by a foriegn super power. Just like Ukraine we started anti terrorist operations, though our one didnt last 8 years. The foriegn superpower and its media naratived their casus belle and we got freedom bombed for it. I guess the Russian version in liberation bombed. And ever since then whenever you piss all over the territorial integrity of a country you just say 'special case lol'.
On February 26 2022 04:57 Oukka wrote: The clarification on that was reported already at around 12:30 GMT by for example BBC. They are not taking minors, but over 60yos can volunteer.
I highly doubt the BBC will mention minors are being armed. From the videos I've seen there are crates out in the open and you just go up to some guy and they give you the gun an ammunition. Not like they were checking for id's or writing down who they gave automatic weapons too.
They had eight years to prepare the defenses of the city. Under the pretense that they were invaded by Russia large sums of money were pumped into their military complex by NATO member states and instead of defenses went all into the pockets of the Kiev elites. How else can you explain telling your own civilians to kamikaze into Russian forces barely 24h hours into active operations?
They haven't deployed any modern equipment, basically using 30 year old tech and feeling out international reactions while they take over the part of the country that kind of doesn't care if they are there so they are being very very careful not to touch the civilian population. Any civilian carrying arms is not a civilian and will not be treated like a civilian.
When Russia is done cleaning up the forces in eastern Ukraine and Kiev do you really think they will be careful not to use too much force in western Ukraine? Resistance and open hostility towards Russia gets you the same treatment the USA would give you. Shock and awe carpet bombing and long range artillery for days and days after which they walk over the ruins while whistling. Its sick and perverted to sacrifice the population of western Ukraine so you can feel good at your keyboard typing away in your first world bubble about 'sticking it to Putin'. Those people are going to have the same kind of time the Iraqis, Syrians, Lybians, Afganies had with the US. Not a good one.
Your government handing you molotov cocktails to throw at professional soldiers is not stunning and brave. It gets you killed to stir up international sympathy. After one fucking day, thats the big plan. Go your your bunker and sacrifice the people.
I hope, for your sake, that you're getting paid to post this stuff, and don't actually believe it.
And that your country is never in the situation Ukraine finds itself today.
My country was in the situation Ukraine is in today. And paid for it, dearly.
Also. Judging by the amount of logical fallacies being flung around while quoting me its obvious quite a few of you are nervous about 'your team' not winning and don't know how to react when there are multiple opinions. Its not about tribalism its about looking at the facts on the ground and coming to your own opinion based on a wide spectrum of sources. Saying that a minority coming to power through a coup and enforcing their views on everyone through force will end badly, admittedly, did get me labeled as a Putin bot. But guess what, I was right. And you can try to character assassinate me all you want it just shows how little substance your arguments have.
Because in the end: It's not propaganda if its true.
You're not the only people allowed to post here, there are many people lurking in these threads that are too scared to voice their opinion.
edit: not really aimed at you Oukka, sigh... I used to care less about the zealots
In what sense was Serbia/the former Yugoslavia in the same position Ukraine is today? Would you care to elaborate as I’ve seen allusions here but I’m rather in the dark as to how direct the parallels are.
Ethnic mess of a country, war in Europe, attacked for geopolitics under the guise of humanitarian purposes. Really fairly similar situation, hopefully less damage in the end.
Whether one agrees with how NATO interceded, there were pretty bloody large scale hot conflicts and atrocities committed. Whatever conflicts there are in Ukraine pale into insignificance against what happened there, in scale anyway.
And the ostensible peacekeeper in the current scenario is brazenly expansionist in rhetoric and action and isn’t exactly hiding it. Hell there’s even a wee bit of sabre rattling about the likes of those uppity Finns.
I mean they’re comparable if the sole metrics of comparison are there being a conflict, ethnic tension and a foreign power(s) being involved.
Being a war in Europe in the modern era is also a pretty important factor, since if the locality were Africa or the Middle East or even Asia it'd see much less attention. Certainly if it happened in 2014-2015 or so the situation would be more comparable, but beyond that the major debate is in more specific details. Not a perfect one-for-one but it is a conflict that comes to mind as having parallels to what is happening here.
EPT
