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On February 24 2022 15:50 Ikirouta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 15:45 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:42 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:40 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:35 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:32 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:29 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:28 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:26 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:23 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
[quote]
I'm not saying he has the right, I'm just saying he isn't a literal raving madman. If the wish to restore a over 100 year old empire on a very sketchy basis and causing the loss of human lives in the process doesn't make one a madman I don't know what does. Russia ruled Ukraine as recently as 1991. Soviet Union and Russian empire are 2 very different things, the empire ended in 1917. I don't think the experience of often brutal Russian rule under the tsars or often brutal Russian rule under the Bolsheviks was that different for most of the people in Ukraine. Yeah, I'm not arguing that. But to quote you, Putin wants to restore the Russian Empire. Thats what he said. Not the Soviet Union, the Russian Empire. Its not gonna stop with Ukraine. Belarus, Estonia, Lavia, Lithuania & Finland will follow. If Putin truly wants to restore the Empire, Ukraine is only the first step. Belarus is basically already been annexed by Russia. The Baltics are part of NATO. Finland will probably become part of NATO very soon. I don't think Putin is going to attack NATO members provided that NATO heavily reinforces its east after today. Finland won't become a part of Nato, and if you don't think Putin is mad enough to attack a nato state in his dreams of restoring the empire, I hope you are right, but I think you are wrong. Re: Finland. Why do you say that? War with NATO means nuclear holocaust.... I don't think Putin wants to get vaporized by US nukes. To be honest a fast google search would probs answer why Finland won't join Nato, but I'll answer shortly: -One of the things why the Ukraine situation is what is it that Ukraine wanted to join Nato, whereas Russia thinks that Nato promised not to expand eastwards, if Finland would join Nato, Nato would expand eastwards. Thus that would only escalate things more. -Most Finns are against Nato for various reasons, me included. One of the main things is that allowing foreign soldiers or having to aid other countries in a war in a country that has conscription is not seen as a good thing in most peoples eyes, most soldiers are normal people, not professional soldiers. There are other reasons, but you can find those with a few quick searches if you are interested. Last Nato polls in Finland showed ~30% yes, ~11% don't know and ~59% no.
Admittedly, these questions are way above my head, but couldn't you just look at Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and then look back on Ukrain and ask yourself which one you prefer to be 20 years from now?
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Thanks for the Twitter thread Oukka, that was really interesting.
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On February 24 2022 15:26 Ikirouta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 15:23 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:21 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:07 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 14:31 maybenexttime wrote:
I hope NATO decides to intervene. It's better to stop the madman before it gets really out of hand. At the very least, we should sanction them into oblivion. Are you kidding me? USA declares war on Russia, the world ends in a nuclear holocaust. Worst case scenario right there, including for everyone in Ukraine Putin's not a madman. He wants to restore the Russian Empire. He made that very clear in his hourlong history speech a day or two ago. and what right does Putin have to restore the Russian empire? If we are restoring historical empires why not just restore everything back to how it was 800 AD, why 1917? Sanctioning into oblivion wont do shit. I'm not saying he has the right, I'm just saying he isn't a literal raving madman. If the wish to restore a over 100 year old empire on a very sketchy basis and causing the loss of human lives in the process doesn't make one a madman I don't know what does.
I see the statement as putin doing this on a cold calculation, rather than a whim of a madman.
On February 24 2022 15:50 Ikirouta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 15:45 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:42 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:40 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:35 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:32 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:29 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:28 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:26 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:23 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
[quote]
I'm not saying he has the right, I'm just saying he isn't a literal raving madman. If the wish to restore a over 100 year old empire on a very sketchy basis and causing the loss of human lives in the process doesn't make one a madman I don't know what does. Russia ruled Ukraine as recently as 1991. Soviet Union and Russian empire are 2 very different things, the empire ended in 1917. I don't think the experience of often brutal Russian rule under the tsars or often brutal Russian rule under the Bolsheviks was that different for most of the people in Ukraine. Yeah, I'm not arguing that. But to quote you, Putin wants to restore the Russian Empire. Thats what he said. Not the Soviet Union, the Russian Empire. Its not gonna stop with Ukraine. Belarus, Estonia, Lavia, Lithuania & Finland will follow. If Putin truly wants to restore the Empire, Ukraine is only the first step. Belarus is basically already been annexed by Russia. The Baltics are part of NATO. Finland will probably become part of NATO very soon. I don't think Putin is going to attack NATO members provided that NATO heavily reinforces its east after today. Finland won't become a part of Nato, and if you don't think Putin is mad enough to attack a nato state in his dreams of restoring the empire, I hope you are right, but I think you are wrong. Re: Finland. Why do you say that? War with NATO means nuclear holocaust.... I don't think Putin wants to get vaporized by US nukes. To be honest a fast google search would probs answer why Finland won't join Nato, but I'll answer shortly: -One of the things why the Ukraine situation is what is it that Ukraine wanted to join Nato, whereas Russia thinks that Nato promised not to expand eastwards, if Finland would join Nato, Nato would expand eastwards. Thus that would only escalate things more. -Most Finns are against Nato for various reasons, me included. One of the main things is that allowing foreign soldiers or having to aid other countries in a war in a country that has conscription is not seen as a good thing in most peoples eyes, most soldiers are normal people, not professional soldiers. There are other reasons, but you can find those with a few quick searches if you are interested. Last Nato polls in Finland showed ~30% yes, ~11% don't know and ~59% no.
thank you for the explanation
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On February 24 2022 17:26 Silvanel wrote:
Anyone knows decent sources for following events on the ground?
Twitter, mostly. Associated Press is a good place to start but it's really the random people with footage on the ground that gives any meaningful insight at this point, so I wade through the comments.
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Its a large scale operation under complete media blackout at least in the active areas. The US had world media along for the ride when they invaded Iraq because 'who cares if the Iraqis see, not like they can do anything about it lol' but I doubt the Russians are going to let anything leak.
Everything is now propaganda for one side or the other and a few civilians reporting (also might be propaganda). Whats true for now is that the Republics have started an offencive along the entire contact line while the RF has wiped out most of the Kiev governments antiair and naval capabilities.
Im at work so I cant post or follow that closely but there are images going around that locals have raised the Russian flag at Harkov. No idea if its true, might be from 2014 but it entirely possibe they are activating all the sleeper cells in eastern Ukraine.
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On February 24 2022 17:47 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 17:26 Silvanel wrote:
Anyone knows decent sources for following events on the ground? Twitter, mostly. Associated Press is a good place to start but it's really the random people with footage on the ground that gives any meaningful insight at this point, so I wade through the comments.
Imho reddit is quite good at collecting news: https://www.reddit.com/live/18hnzysb1elcs
It is then up to you, what of it you believe and what not 
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Didn't find anything confirming a paratrooper attack on Kyiv. Someone supposedly heard gun fire, but other sources only mention explosions.
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Northern Ireland27228 Posts
On February 24 2022 17:47 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 17:26 Silvanel wrote:
Anyone knows decent sources for following events on the ground? Twitter, mostly. Associated Press is a good place to start but it's really the random people with footage on the ground that gives any meaningful insight at this point, so I wade through the comments.
It’s still a bit surreal to me that we can follow such things in basically real time, although there’s also a commensurate potential for misinformation.
Stay safe our Ukrainian Liquidian brethren
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I've seen now a few different reports on Russian casualties from some Ukrainian military sources. Apparently sixth Russian plane shot down, around 50 Russian troops killed in the eastern parts and four tanks destroyed near Kharkov in the east.
Might be and likely am overreading into this, but at the very least it looks like there is not going to be a Russian parade in Kiev by the weekend.
Edit: it's a weird situation. In some ways it might be preferable at this point if Russian troops reached their objectives quickly, that might minimise the suffering and loss of lives due to combat. On the other hand stiff resistance and even a protracted conflict might make Putin think twice about more invasions like these and make similar situations less likely in the future. But the human cost now would be worse.
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Zurich15366 Posts
On February 24 2022 18:03 Sent. wrote:
Didn't find anything confirming a paratrooper attack on Kyiv. Someone supposedly heard gun fire, but other sources only mention explosions.
Of course that was BS news, come on people. Common sense.
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On February 24 2022 18:40 Oukka wrote:
In some ways it might be preferable at this point if Russian troops reached their objectives quickly, that might minimise the suffering and loss of lives due to combat.
Nothing worse than that. Hitler's minimal causulties in 1939 allowed german army to continue operations in 1940 and sealed the fate of France. If this will end with another Desert Storm, Russians might be dumb enouth to be ok with another war in another part of the world.
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On February 24 2022 18:40 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 17:47 LegalLord wrote:On February 24 2022 17:26 Silvanel wrote:
Anyone knows decent sources for following events on the ground? Twitter, mostly. Associated Press is a good place to start but it's really the random people with footage on the ground that gives any meaningful insight at this point, so I wade through the comments. It’s still a bit surreal to me that we can follow such things in basically real time, although there’s also a commensurate potential for misinformation. Stay safe our Ukrainian Liquidian brethren
Ideally I would just go to sleep since it's well past my bedtime, and check in in the morning, avoiding an overreaction to tentative data, but given that that's not happening this is the alternative. First casualty of war is the truth, and we probably won't know for months what exactly happened in just the last few hours.
On February 24 2022 18:40 Oukka wrote:
I've seen now a few different reports on Russian casualties from some Ukrainian military sources. Apparently sixth Russian plane shot down, around 50 Russian troops killed in the eastern parts and four tanks destroyed near Kharkov in the east.
Might be and likely am overreading into this, but at the very least it looks like there is not going to be a Russian parade in Kiev by the weekend.
I strongly doubt they could count personnel casualties on the fly like that, which makes me suspicious about the rest of the claims.
If the claim that all the air defenses are destroyed is true, then it's probably over regardless of whether or not they did shoot down six planes. Various footage of damaged hardware in military airports suggests it's not entirely made up.
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I mostly receive Western news, which, like any source, is biased. The only way to know what's going on is by having multiple sources of information.
So I'm curious what information the Russian people receive about this. I don't read cyrillic, so not all sources are available to me. Can some summarize the Eastern coverage on this conflict?
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You really want to read news from the agressor? To avoid bias? Are You nuts? Thats going to be nothing but blantant propaganda.
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On February 24 2022 19:02 _fool wrote:
I mostly receive Western news, which, like any source, is biased. The only way to know what's going on is by having multiple sources of information.
So I'm curious what information the Russian people receive about this. I don't read cyrillic, so not all sources are available to me. Can some summarize the Eastern coverage on this conflict?
Im following the Serbian people that follow pro-Kiev and pro-RUS news sources. At least they give their Russian sources and translations.
Harkov is apparently surrounded. They are waiting for internal opposition to take control of Kiev government buildings and for the police to switch sides. Reading about water being cut off in the city to hasten this process but again, who knows.
Troops from Crimea advancing towards Melitopol. Very little resistance in from the army besides at the frontlines near Donbass. Parts of the UKR 57th brigade destroyed at the Lugansk front. Apparently the complete collapse of the 53rd brigade at Volnovakha. No amphibious assult on Odessa, just rocketing naval equipment and supplies.
Again. Im just translating Serbian translations of Russian sources, bloggers ect. But this seems to be the consensus among the Russian sources.
Edit: a lot of mentions about a Kiev transport plane running away to Romania. Not sure if someone mentioned it here but it all leads into the narative that Kiev forces are laying down arms (the forces far from the front line at Donetsk)
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Zurich15366 Posts
On February 24 2022 19:02 _fool wrote:
I mostly receive Western news, which, like any source, is biased. The only way to know what's going on is by having multiple sources of information.
So I'm curious what information the Russian people receive about this. I don't read cyrillic, so not all sources are available to me. Can some summarize the Eastern coverage on this conflict?
Consider it's an ongoing development. Even News with some credibility will likely be outdated within hours.
In terms of major ground operations, what seems safe to say at this point is that the Russian army is surrounding Kharkov. No move into the city seems to have happened yet. But again, this and other developments on the ground can change within the hour.
With the air campaign it gets much murkier. It appears clear that Ukrainian installations across the entire country have been attacked. But the extend of the damage is lost in the fog of war somewhere between multiple Russian jets shot down and the entire Ukrainian air defense destroyed.
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On February 24 2022 19:02 _fool wrote:
I mostly receive Western news, which, like any source, is biased. The only way to know what's going on is by having multiple sources of information.
So I'm curious what information the Russian people receive about this. I don't read cyrillic, so not all sources are available to me. Can some summarize the Eastern coverage on this conflict?
You can put the various live entries from this page into Google translate: TASS timeline. That's basically your state news take without any commentary.
Short version: nearly full radio silence on what's actually happening on the ground, all the coverage is related to the response to it. Official government statements, diplomatic reactions of various European and non-European officials, sanctions threats, performance of the stock market, and so on. Only real news of events on the ground that I remember are "reports of explosions heard near Kiev" and "Ministry of Defense denies Ukrainian report of plane shot down."
I'd describe it as eerily silent. Even your blatant propaganda like RT isn't saying much.
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On February 24 2022 19:19 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 19:02 _fool wrote:
I mostly receive Western news, which, like any source, is biased. The only way to know what's going on is by having multiple sources of information.
So I'm curious what information the Russian people receive about this. I don't read cyrillic, so not all sources are available to me. Can some summarize the Eastern coverage on this conflict? You can put the various live entries from this page into Google translate: TASS timeline. That's basically your state news take without any commentary. Short version: nearly full radio silence on what's actually happening on the ground, all the coverage is related to the response to it. Official government statements, diplomatic reactions of various European and non-European officials, sanctions threats, performance of the stock market, and so on. Only real news of events on the ground that I remember are "reports of explosions heard near Kiev" and "Ministry of Defense denies Ukrainian report of plane shot down." I'd describe it as eerily silent. Even your blatant propaganda like RT isn't saying much.
I think part of it is Putin wanting to downplay the extent of the conflict and Russia's role as an attacker to the domestic audience. Less information and reporting on activities outside the 'national republics' means easier times to sell the conflict as defence and peacekeeping operations.
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EPT
