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On February 24 2022 15:07 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 14:31 maybenexttime wrote:
I hope NATO decides to intervene. It's better to stop the madman before it gets really out of hand. At the very least, we should sanction them into oblivion. Are you kidding me? USA declares war on Russia, the world ends in a nuclear holocaust. Worst case scenario right there, including for everyone in Ukraine Putin's not a madman. He wants to restore the Russian Empire. He made that very clear in his hourlong history speech a day or two ago.
and what right does Putin have to restore the Russian empire? If we are restoring historical empires why not just restore everything back to how it was 800 AD, why 1917? Sanctioning into oblivion wont do shit.
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On February 24 2022 15:21 Ikirouta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 15:07 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 14:31 maybenexttime wrote:
I hope NATO decides to intervene. It's better to stop the madman before it gets really out of hand. At the very least, we should sanction them into oblivion. Are you kidding me? USA declares war on Russia, the world ends in a nuclear holocaust. Worst case scenario right there, including for everyone in Ukraine Putin's not a madman. He wants to restore the Russian Empire. He made that very clear in his hourlong history speech a day or two ago. and what right does Putin have to restore the Russian empire? If we are restoring historical empires why not just restore everything back to how it was 800 AD, why 1917? Sanctioning into oblivion wont do shit.
I'm not saying he has the right, I'm just saying he isn't a literal raving madman.
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On February 24 2022 15:23 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 15:21 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:07 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 14:31 maybenexttime wrote:
I hope NATO decides to intervene. It's better to stop the madman before it gets really out of hand. At the very least, we should sanction them into oblivion. Are you kidding me? USA declares war on Russia, the world ends in a nuclear holocaust. Worst case scenario right there, including for everyone in Ukraine Putin's not a madman. He wants to restore the Russian Empire. He made that very clear in his hourlong history speech a day or two ago. and what right does Putin have to restore the Russian empire? If we are restoring historical empires why not just restore everything back to how it was 800 AD, why 1917? Sanctioning into oblivion wont do shit. I'm not saying he has the right, I'm just saying he isn't a literal raving madman.
If the wish to restore a over 100 year old empire on a very sketchy basis and causing the loss of human lives in the process doesn't make one a madman I don't know what does.
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Wow, I did not expect that to happen. I don't understand what they're trying to achieve by bombing Kyiv.
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On February 24 2022 15:26 Ikirouta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 15:23 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:21 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:07 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 14:31 maybenexttime wrote:
I hope NATO decides to intervene. It's better to stop the madman before it gets really out of hand. At the very least, we should sanction them into oblivion. Are you kidding me? USA declares war on Russia, the world ends in a nuclear holocaust. Worst case scenario right there, including for everyone in Ukraine Putin's not a madman. He wants to restore the Russian Empire. He made that very clear in his hourlong history speech a day or two ago. and what right does Putin have to restore the Russian empire? If we are restoring historical empires why not just restore everything back to how it was 800 AD, why 1917? Sanctioning into oblivion wont do shit. I'm not saying he has the right, I'm just saying he isn't a literal raving madman. If the wish to restore a over 100 year old empire on a very sketchy basis and causing the loss of human lives in the process doesn't make one a madman I don't know what does.
Russia ruled Ukraine as recently as 1991.
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On February 24 2022 15:28 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 15:26 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:23 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:21 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:07 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 14:31 maybenexttime wrote:
I hope NATO decides to intervene. It's better to stop the madman before it gets really out of hand. At the very least, we should sanction them into oblivion. Are you kidding me? USA declares war on Russia, the world ends in a nuclear holocaust. Worst case scenario right there, including for everyone in Ukraine Putin's not a madman. He wants to restore the Russian Empire. He made that very clear in his hourlong history speech a day or two ago. and what right does Putin have to restore the Russian empire? If we are restoring historical empires why not just restore everything back to how it was 800 AD, why 1917? Sanctioning into oblivion wont do shit. I'm not saying he has the right, I'm just saying he isn't a literal raving madman. If the wish to restore a over 100 year old empire on a very sketchy basis and causing the loss of human lives in the process doesn't make one a madman I don't know what does. Russia ruled Ukraine as recently as 1991.
Soviet Union and Russian empire are 2 very different things, the empire ended in 1917.
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On February 24 2022 15:29 Ikirouta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 15:28 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:26 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:23 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:21 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:07 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 14:31 maybenexttime wrote:
I hope NATO decides to intervene. It's better to stop the madman before it gets really out of hand. At the very least, we should sanction them into oblivion. Are you kidding me? USA declares war on Russia, the world ends in a nuclear holocaust. Worst case scenario right there, including for everyone in Ukraine Putin's not a madman. He wants to restore the Russian Empire. He made that very clear in his hourlong history speech a day or two ago. and what right does Putin have to restore the Russian empire? If we are restoring historical empires why not just restore everything back to how it was 800 AD, why 1917? Sanctioning into oblivion wont do shit. I'm not saying he has the right, I'm just saying he isn't a literal raving madman. If the wish to restore a over 100 year old empire on a very sketchy basis and causing the loss of human lives in the process doesn't make one a madman I don't know what does. Russia ruled Ukraine as recently as 1991. Soviet Union and Russian empire are 2 very different things, the empire ended in 1917.
I don't think the experience of often brutal Russian rule under the tsars or often brutal Russian rule under the Bolsheviks was that different for most of the people in Ukraine.
Official state ideology was different. But both USSR and Imperial Russia were empires led from Moscow / St Petersburg by Russian leaders with Russians as the dominant ethnicity everywhere. All minorities viewed with suspicion and repressed. Forced Russification programs implemented across Imperial Russia and USSR. Could go on and on.
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On February 24 2022 15:32 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 15:29 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:28 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:26 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:23 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:21 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:07 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 14:31 maybenexttime wrote:
I hope NATO decides to intervene. It's better to stop the madman before it gets really out of hand. At the very least, we should sanction them into oblivion. Are you kidding me? USA declares war on Russia, the world ends in a nuclear holocaust. Worst case scenario right there, including for everyone in Ukraine Putin's not a madman. He wants to restore the Russian Empire. He made that very clear in his hourlong history speech a day or two ago. and what right does Putin have to restore the Russian empire? If we are restoring historical empires why not just restore everything back to how it was 800 AD, why 1917? Sanctioning into oblivion wont do shit. I'm not saying he has the right, I'm just saying he isn't a literal raving madman. If the wish to restore a over 100 year old empire on a very sketchy basis and causing the loss of human lives in the process doesn't make one a madman I don't know what does. Russia ruled Ukraine as recently as 1991. Soviet Union and Russian empire are 2 very different things, the empire ended in 1917. I don't think the experience of often brutal Russian rule under the tsars or often brutal Russian rule under the Bolsheviks was that different for most of the people in Ukraine.
Yeah, I'm not arguing that. But to quote you, Putin wants to restore the Russian Empire. Thats what he said. Not the Soviet Union, the Russian Empire. Its not gonna stop with Ukraine. Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania & Finland will follow. If Putin truly wants to restore the Empire, Ukraine is only the first step.
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On February 24 2022 15:35 Ikirouta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 15:32 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:29 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:28 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:26 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:23 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:21 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:07 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 14:31 maybenexttime wrote:
I hope NATO decides to intervene. It's better to stop the madman before it gets really out of hand. At the very least, we should sanction them into oblivion. Are you kidding me? USA declares war on Russia, the world ends in a nuclear holocaust. Worst case scenario right there, including for everyone in Ukraine Putin's not a madman. He wants to restore the Russian Empire. He made that very clear in his hourlong history speech a day or two ago. and what right does Putin have to restore the Russian empire? If we are restoring historical empires why not just restore everything back to how it was 800 AD, why 1917? Sanctioning into oblivion wont do shit. I'm not saying he has the right, I'm just saying he isn't a literal raving madman. If the wish to restore a over 100 year old empire on a very sketchy basis and causing the loss of human lives in the process doesn't make one a madman I don't know what does. Russia ruled Ukraine as recently as 1991. Soviet Union and Russian empire are 2 very different things, the empire ended in 1917. I don't think the experience of often brutal Russian rule under the tsars or often brutal Russian rule under the Bolsheviks was that different for most of the people in Ukraine. Yeah, I'm not arguing that. But to quote you, Putin wants to restore the Russian Empire. Thats what he said. Not the Soviet Union, the Russian Empire. Its not gonna stop with Ukraine. Belarus, Estonia, Lavia, Lithuania & Finland will follow. If Putin truly wants to restore the Empire, Ukraine is only the first step.
Belarus is basically already been annexed by Russia.
The Baltics are part of NATO. Finland will probably become part of NATO very soon. I don't think Putin is going to attack NATO members provided that NATO heavily reinforces its east after today.
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On February 24 2022 15:40 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 15:35 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:32 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:29 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:28 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:26 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:23 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:21 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:07 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 14:31 maybenexttime wrote:
I hope NATO decides to intervene. It's better to stop the madman before it gets really out of hand. At the very least, we should sanction them into oblivion. Are you kidding me? USA declares war on Russia, the world ends in a nuclear holocaust. Worst case scenario right there, including for everyone in Ukraine Putin's not a madman. He wants to restore the Russian Empire. He made that very clear in his hourlong history speech a day or two ago. and what right does Putin have to restore the Russian empire? If we are restoring historical empires why not just restore everything back to how it was 800 AD, why 1917? Sanctioning into oblivion wont do shit. I'm not saying he has the right, I'm just saying he isn't a literal raving madman. If the wish to restore a over 100 year old empire on a very sketchy basis and causing the loss of human lives in the process doesn't make one a madman I don't know what does. Russia ruled Ukraine as recently as 1991. Soviet Union and Russian empire are 2 very different things, the empire ended in 1917. I don't think the experience of often brutal Russian rule under the tsars or often brutal Russian rule under the Bolsheviks was that different for most of the people in Ukraine. Yeah, I'm not arguing that. But to quote you, Putin wants to restore the Russian Empire. Thats what he said. Not the Soviet Union, the Russian Empire. Its not gonna stop with Ukraine. Belarus, Estonia, Lavia, Lithuania & Finland will follow. If Putin truly wants to restore the Empire, Ukraine is only the first step. Belarus is basically already been annexed by Russia. The Baltics are part of NATO. Finland will probably become part of NATO very soon. I don't think Putin is going to attack NATO members provided that NATO heavily reinforces its east after today.
Finland won't become a part of Nato, and if you don't think Putin is mad enough to attack a nato state in his dreams of restoring the empire, I hope you are right, but I think you are wrong.
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On February 24 2022 15:42 Ikirouta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 15:40 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:35 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:32 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:29 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:28 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:26 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:23 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:21 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:07 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
[quote]
Are you kidding me? USA declares war on Russia, the world ends in a nuclear holocaust. Worst case scenario right there, including for everyone in Ukraine
Putin's not a madman. He wants to restore the Russian Empire. He made that very clear in his hourlong history speech a day or two ago. and what right does Putin have to restore the Russian empire? If we are restoring historical empires why not just restore everything back to how it was 800 AD, why 1917? Sanctioning into oblivion wont do shit. I'm not saying he has the right, I'm just saying he isn't a literal raving madman. If the wish to restore a over 100 year old empire on a very sketchy basis and causing the loss of human lives in the process doesn't make one a madman I don't know what does. Russia ruled Ukraine as recently as 1991. Soviet Union and Russian empire are 2 very different things, the empire ended in 1917. I don't think the experience of often brutal Russian rule under the tsars or often brutal Russian rule under the Bolsheviks was that different for most of the people in Ukraine. Yeah, I'm not arguing that. But to quote you, Putin wants to restore the Russian Empire. Thats what he said. Not the Soviet Union, the Russian Empire. Its not gonna stop with Ukraine. Belarus, Estonia, Lavia, Lithuania & Finland will follow. If Putin truly wants to restore the Empire, Ukraine is only the first step. Belarus is basically already been annexed by Russia. The Baltics are part of NATO. Finland will probably become part of NATO very soon. I don't think Putin is going to attack NATO members provided that NATO heavily reinforces its east after today. Finland won't become a part of Nato, and if you don't think Putin is mad enough to attack a nato state in his dreams of restoring the empire, I hope you are right, but I think you are wrong.
Re: Finland. Why do you say that?
War with NATO means nuclear holocaust.... I don't think Putin wants to get vaporized by US nukes.
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On February 24 2022 15:45 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 15:42 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:40 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:35 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:32 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:29 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:28 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:26 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:23 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:21 Ikirouta wrote:
[quote]
and what right does Putin have to restore the Russian empire? If we are restoring historical empires why not just restore everything back to how it was 800 AD, why 1917? Sanctioning into oblivion wont do shit. I'm not saying he has the right, I'm just saying he isn't a literal raving madman. If the wish to restore a over 100 year old empire on a very sketchy basis and causing the loss of human lives in the process doesn't make one a madman I don't know what does. Russia ruled Ukraine as recently as 1991. Soviet Union and Russian empire are 2 very different things, the empire ended in 1917. I don't think the experience of often brutal Russian rule under the tsars or often brutal Russian rule under the Bolsheviks was that different for most of the people in Ukraine. Yeah, I'm not arguing that. But to quote you, Putin wants to restore the Russian Empire. Thats what he said. Not the Soviet Union, the Russian Empire. Its not gonna stop with Ukraine. Belarus, Estonia, Lavia, Lithuania & Finland will follow. If Putin truly wants to restore the Empire, Ukraine is only the first step. Belarus is basically already been annexed by Russia. The Baltics are part of NATO. Finland will probably become part of NATO very soon. I don't think Putin is going to attack NATO members provided that NATO heavily reinforces its east after today. Finland won't become a part of Nato, and if you don't think Putin is mad enough to attack a nato state in his dreams of restoring the empire, I hope you are right, but I think you are wrong. Re: Finland. Why do you say that? War with NATO means nuclear holocaust.... I don't think Putin wants to get vaporized by US nukes.
To be honest a fast google search would probs answer why Finland won't join Nato, but I'll answer shortly:
-One of the things why the Ukraine situation is what is it that Ukraine wanted to join Nato, whereas Russia thinks that Nato promised not to expand eastwards, if Finland would join Nato, Nato would expand eastwards. Thus that would only escalate things more.
-Most Finns are against Nato for various reasons, me included. One of the main things is that allowing foreign soldiers or having to aid other countries in a war in a country that has conscription is not seen as a good thing in most peoples eyes, most soldiers are normal people, not professional soldiers. There are other reasons, but you can find those with a few quick searches if you are interested. Last Nato polls in Finland showed ~30% yes, ~11% don't know and ~59% no.
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I wonder if there are ukraininans at Katowice right now for IEM. It must be surreal to hear that your home just got invaded by Russia
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On February 24 2022 15:52 Geo.Rion wrote:
I wonder if there are ukraininans at Katowice right now for IEM. It must be surreal to hear that your home just got invaded by Russia
Am wondering the same. Anyone know where Bly is? He didn't make Ro36, right?
Also wonder how the Russians like Skillous are going to be treated over this.
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The only way Ukraine can drag this out is if USA declares and enforces a no-fly zone over Ukraine. There is no other way that Ukrainian leadership/ground forces aren't routed within a week otherwise. It's too short of a drive from Belarus to Kyiv. The problem as has already been discussed are nukes. Russia has them, there's a lot of places that they're obviously aimed, and many more places where they can be aimed. Igniting a world war in the modern era is unlikely to be a multi-year slog. It could end in hours for everyone.
As far as sanctions go, nothing is going to save Ukraine. Germany needs to delay the sunset of nuclear reactors until they have alternatives, given that gas from Russia is probably a no-go in the forseeable future, but there's too much energy dependence on Russia.
The amount of news trickling out of Ukraine from social media makes it seem as if all airfields/airforces from the Ukraine side are down, so Russia's achieved air superiority inside of hours (not really unexpected).
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On February 24 2022 15:50 Ikirouta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 15:45 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:42 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:40 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:35 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:32 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:29 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:28 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On February 24 2022 15:26 Ikirouta wrote:On February 24 2022 15:23 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
[quote]
I'm not saying he has the right, I'm just saying he isn't a literal raving madman. If the wish to restore a over 100 year old empire on a very sketchy basis and causing the loss of human lives in the process doesn't make one a madman I don't know what does. Russia ruled Ukraine as recently as 1991. Soviet Union and Russian empire are 2 very different things, the empire ended in 1917. I don't think the experience of often brutal Russian rule under the tsars or often brutal Russian rule under the Bolsheviks was that different for most of the people in Ukraine. Yeah, I'm not arguing that. But to quote you, Putin wants to restore the Russian Empire. Thats what he said. Not the Soviet Union, the Russian Empire. Its not gonna stop with Ukraine. Belarus, Estonia, Lavia, Lithuania & Finland will follow. If Putin truly wants to restore the Empire, Ukraine is only the first step. Belarus is basically already been annexed by Russia. The Baltics are part of NATO. Finland will probably become part of NATO very soon. I don't think Putin is going to attack NATO members provided that NATO heavily reinforces its east after today. Finland won't become a part of Nato, and if you don't think Putin is mad enough to attack a nato state in his dreams of restoring the empire, I hope you are right, but I think you are wrong. Re: Finland. Why do you say that? War with NATO means nuclear holocaust.... I don't think Putin wants to get vaporized by US nukes. To be honest a fast google search would probs answer why Finland won't join Nato, but I'll answer shortly: -One of the things why the Ukraine situation is what is it that Ukraine wanted to join Nato, whereas Russia thinks that Nato promised not to expand eastwards, if Finland would join Nato, Nato would expand eastwards. Thus that would only escalate things more. -Most Finns are against Nato for various reasons, me included. One of the main things is that allowing foreign soldiers or having to aid other countries in a war in a country that has conscription is not seen as a good thing in most peoples eyes, most soldiers are normal people, not professional soldiers. There are other reasons, but you can find those with a few quick searches if you are interested. Last Nato polls in Finland showed ~30% yes, ~11% don't know and ~59% no.
I have a hunch those poll figures might be changing rather rapidly.
Plus Ukrainian situation is still rather an argument for us to join NATO than stay out. Ukraine hadn't applied to join NATO, wasn't going to be joining NATO in years or more likely tens of years. They simply stopped bowing to Putin's wishes a while back and that was enough for the invasion. Finland has been more Western than Ukraine since 1920s. If Putin wants to aggress, NATO membership should be an extra level of deterrent.
I used to be very much against us joining NATO, and I still don't particularly like the thought of being tied into US and their expeditions. It just seems the facts have changed (i.e. Russia is now more hostile than it has been before) so maybe it is time for me to take NATO as a lesser evil here.
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Yeah, in the world where Putin sets his eyes on Finland the NATO choice will quickly become having foreign troops in the country as allies or foreign troops as enemies. Fingers crossed we avoid that world.
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They have to, Putin gains nothing by prolonging the conflict now that it's been kicked off. The longer it takes for Russia to achieve their objectives the more they bleed in men and machines. And whatever initial war enthusiasm or popular support there is will start to fade away as time passes and casualties happen, same as Afghanistan or Iraq etc.
Underneath is the beginning of a good thread on why Putin wants to make it a 10mins in-and-out type of a campaign:
https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1496711906412933121?t=FMyWGZaVjP03hcx5w-rv3g&s=19
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What many people in the west don't understand is that total domination in the region has been the policy of russian rulers for the last 500 years, and it will never change. Invasion of Ukraine isn't an anomaly, it's back to their usual modus operanti.
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EPT
