EPTAnyway in the grand scheme of this mess it is utterly irrelevant what the exact motive behind the referendum was but I guess when it is about blaming the other side, every little bit counts.
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 130
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silynxer
Germany439 Posts
Anyway in the grand scheme of this mess it is utterly irrelevant what the exact motive behind the referendum was but I guess when it is about blaming the other side, every little bit counts. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22088 Posts
On June 29 2015 03:41 WhiteDog wrote: You're making it seem like it's a question of communication (it's not my fault it's them, blablabla). I'm not sure you understood, but it's a real problem that is being negotiated, not some secondary deal on obvious matters. I got two weeks to think when I took my first loan, I guess having two more days for Greece to decide if they are really ready to continue follow the stupidity of the european institution is okay. The deadline of the 30th was not going to move. The Eurozone had repeatedly made that clear so what sanity is there in deciding the have a referendum at the last minute and holding it past the deadline when the current impasse has been going on since the deadline was moved from February? The Greek government has had months to think about it. This is you calling your bank after the 2 weeks have passed, after office hours and asking if you can have another week. Their going to say No unless you can come up with some damn convincing reasons and Tsipras has given nothing, He even poisoned the referendum by advising everyone to vote no. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On June 29 2015 03:47 Gorsameth wrote: The deadline of the 30th was not going to move. The Eurozone had repeatedly made that clear so what sanity is there in deciding the have a referendum at the last minute and holding it past the deadline when the current impasse has been going on since the deadline was moved from February? The Greek government has had months to think about it. This is you calling your bank after the 2 weeks have passed, after office hours and asking if you can have another week. Their going to say No unless you can come up with some damn convincing reasons and Tsipras has given nothing, He even poisoned the referendum by advising everyone to vote no. The same exact comment can be made about the "institutions" : they knew why Syriza has been elected, they knew what they promised to the Greeks, and still propose plan that mimic what has been done (and what has failed) in the last few years... Considering this, it's pretty obvious the Greek government was not ready to accept a plan that was a clear violation of their democratic mandate. Somehow, you're more attached to "respecting the deadline" rather than respecting the desire of the people : you're a true european. | ||
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silynxer
Germany439 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22088 Posts
On June 29 2015 03:52 WhiteDog wrote: The same exact comment can be made about the "institutions" : they knew why Syriza has been elected, they knew what they promised to the Greeks, and still propose plan that mimic what has been done (and what has failed) in the last few years... Considering this, it's pretty obvious the Greek government was not ready to accept a plan that was a clear violation of their democratic mandate. Somehow, you're more attached to "respecting the deadline" rather than respecting the desire of the people : you're a true european. Because the deadline was an existing deal made before Syriza was elected. Do you think every country should re-negotiate every debt and every treaty they have when a new government is elected? The entire international scene, be it political or economic relies on governments honoring agreements made by their predecessors. The bank doesn't come to you to re-negotiate your mortgage when your salary gets cut. You go to the bank and hope to make a deal and if they don't like it your out of luck. That's how the world works. | ||
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silynxer
Germany439 Posts
On June 29 2015 03:59 Gorsameth wrote: Because the deadline was an existing deal made before Syriza was elected. Do you think every country should re-negotiate every debt and every treaty they have when a new government is elected? The entire international scene, be it political or economic relies on governments honoring agreements made by their predecessors. The bank doesn't come to you to re-negotiate your mortgage when your salary gets cut. You go to the bank and hope to make a deal and if they don't like it your out of luck. That's how the world works. The world of international politics doesn't work like your domestic example. Rules and deadlines are streched and broken all the time for various reasons. Remember the illegal (by its own rules!) bailout of the EU? But suddenly procedure becomes holy. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On June 29 2015 03:57 silynxer wrote: These arguments that have been continuously made in favor of the "institutions" basically boil down to might makes right: THEY made their position clear so it is completely unreasonable to not swallow everything that was offered... Now you have demonstrated to me that you're not interested in any actual discussion or learning anything, but merely propagating your own questionable point of view, so I will discuss with you no further. | ||
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silynxer
Germany439 Posts
On June 29 2015 04:08 zlefin wrote: Now you have demonstrated to me that you're not interested in any actual discussion or learning anything, but merely propagating your own questionable point of view, so I will discuss with you no further. How so? EDIT: To expand, you can literally substitute, in the way Whitedog proposed, many of the arguments made in favor of the institutions with the perspective of SYRIZA (like how they made clear what things would be unacceptable for them etc.) Perhaps it looked like I meant all arguments made in this thread, for which I am sorry, I wanted to refer to Gorsameth post above. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
In response to your edit: if there is no mutually agreeable deal, because the terms Syriza wants are incompatible with what the others want, then you just thank the other side for the discussion and announce that no satisfactory deal could be reached, and move on. Also, just because Syriza claims a deal is bad, doesn't mean it's actually a bad deal, as Syriza has proven itself incompetent at governance. | ||
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silynxer
Germany439 Posts
On June 29 2015 04:15 zlefin wrote: How so? via the statement I quoted. There is a perceived, with some justification, view that Greece has been acting in bad faith in some of the negotiations. To call it might makes right or that other thing you said is not trying to view things from a reasonable perspective. If you cannot see that, I do not think any explanation I can provide will change your mind. It's very common in discussions like this to find people who are not going to change their mind no matter what evidence is provided, so I try to avoid getting into it with people who seem like they are that way. In response to your edit: if there is no mutually agreeable deal, because the terms Syriza wants are incompatible with what the others want, then you just thank the other side for the discussion and announce that no satisfactory deal could be reached, and move on. Also, just because Syriza claims a deal is bad, doesn't mean it's actually a bad deal, as Syriza has proven itself incompetent at governance. But isn't this exactly what happened? SYRIZA moved on with posing the existential question they now faced (after the negotiations failed) to the people who it concerns most so they could decide whether the deal is bad? Again it would be ridiculous if the Greek people voted Yes but the Eurogroup would decide to not accept that because the decision came 2 days too late. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22088 Posts
On June 29 2015 04:21 silynxer wrote: But isn't this exactly what happened? SYRIZA moved on with posing the existential question they now faced (after the negotiations failed) to the people who it concerns most and so they could decide whether the deal is bad? Again it would be ridiculous if the Greek people voted Yes but the Eurogroup would decide to not accept that because the decision came 2 days too late. 5 days btw, not 2. And negotiations have been failing for months. If they had held this referendum 1 week earlier, you know before the deadline then Greece would have had a point regardless of how they vote. You call it ridiculous that the Eurogroup cant wait a week, The Eurogroup calls it ridiculous you couldn't ask the question a week earlier. Considering how long the deadline has been standing, I'm with the Eurogroup on this. | ||
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lord_nibbler
Germany591 Posts
On June 29 2015 04:21 silynxer wrote: Again it would be ridiculous if the Greek people voted Yes but the Eurogroup would decide to not accept that because the decision came 2 days too late. It is not about the Eurogroup anymore. Even with only two days of 'insolvency' for the Greek state the markets will have made the decision for all of us. Plus, if the people really vote yes, than the Greek government is gone and they will have an emergency election, how is that going to help the dire situation? | ||
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Maenander
Germany4926 Posts
On June 29 2015 04:21 silynxer wrote: But isn't this exactly what happened? SYRIZA moved on with posing the existential question they now faced (after the negotiations failed) to the people who it concerns most and so they could decide whether the deal is bad? Again it would be ridiculous if the Greek people voted Yes but the Eurogroup would decide to not accept that because the decision came 2 days too late. Obviously the deadlines aren't written in stone. There is no point in speculating, we don't know what will happen next week. | ||
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silynxer
Germany439 Posts
On June 29 2015 04:27 Gorsameth wrote: 5 days btw, not 2. And negotiations have been failing for months. If they had held this referendum 1 week earlier, you know before the deadline then Greece would have had a point regardless of how they vote. You call it ridiculous that the Eurogroup cant wait a week, The Eurogroup calls it ridiculous you couldn't ask the question a week earlier. Considering how long the deadline has been standing, I'm with the Eurogroup on this. But what is the benefit of taking a such a hard-line on the deadline? Is it to punish Greece? To punish SYRIZA? To make an example out of them? It cannot be out of principle for procedure because these principles have been violated far too often. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
Also, the referendum isn't authorized by the Greek constitution from what I've read. (http://www.hri.org/docs/syntagma/artcl50.html#A44 "A referendum on Bills passed by Parliament regulating important social matters, with the exception of the fiscal ones ") and of course, that they've had a long time to put a referendum up on this very foreseeable outcome. | ||
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silynxer
Germany439 Posts
On June 29 2015 04:28 lord_nibbler wrote: It is not about the Eurogroup anymore. Even with only two days of 'insolvency' for the Greek state the markets will have made the decision for all of us. Plus, if the people really vote yes, than the Greek government is gone and they will have an emergency election, how is that going to help the dire situation? That is if the creditors take a hard-line... Btw: Varoufakis wrote:Some worry that a Yes vote would be a vote of no confidence in our government (as we shall be recommending a No vote), in which case we cannot promise to the Eurogroup that we shall be in a position to sign and implement the agreement with the institutions. This is not so. We are committed democrats. If the people gives us a clear instruction to sign up on the institutions’ proposals, we shall do whatever it takes to do so – even if it means a reconfigured government. @Zlefin: Again how households deal with debt is not illuminating at all in this situation and the idea that they are stalling just for stalling sake is ridiculous. I refer you back to the post of WhiteDog to which you did not reply if I remember correctly. Anyway, you read wrong. This part of the constitution of Greece is concerned with Bills passed by the Parliament there is another section for dealing with important national matters. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6263 Posts
On June 29 2015 04:32 silynxer wrote: But what is the benefit of taking a such a hard-line on the deadline? Is it to punish Greece? To punish SYRIZA? To make an example out of them? It cannot be out of principle for procedure because these principles have been violated far too often. They're not taking a hard-line on the deadline. The deadline is a deadline because Greece has to make their payment to the IMF July 1st which they can't and the deal has to be ratified by parliaments as well. | ||
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silynxer
Germany439 Posts
On June 29 2015 04:40 RvB wrote: They're not taking a hard-line on the deadline. The deadline is a deadline because Greece has to make their payment to the IMF July 1st which they can't and the deal has to be ratified by parliaments as well. Yes and it is absolutely impossible to find a workaround for another couple of days... But ok I should not call it a hard-line anymore, perhaps stubborn is a better term. Btw you may correct me if I am wrong but isn't a country that cannot pay back IMF loans usually given a grace period? I really don't know this but something comes to mind. Well I usually don't post and now I remember why. It's just stressing me out too much so sorry to all I'll vanish again. I hope for the best for Greece. Well actually I hope for the best for the best of the EU as well, I like it as a concept but the outlook is rather dire now. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
As to the constitution, since I provided a citation, if you wish to dispute it, you should provide a citation, rather than an assertion. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22088 Posts
On June 29 2015 04:48 silynxer wrote: Yes and it is absolutely impossible to find a workaround for another couple of days... But ok I should not call it a hard-line anymore, perhaps stubborn is a better term. Btw you may correct me if I am wrong but isn't a country that cannot pay back IMF loans usually given a grace period? I really don't know this but something comes to mind. Well I usually don't post and now I remember why. It's just stressing me out too much so sorry to all I'll vanish again. I hope for the best for Greece. Well actually I hope for the best for the best of the EU as well, I like it as a concept but the outlook is rather dire now. A big part of the stubborn deadline is because it was originally in February and has already been moved before. | ||
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