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European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 1239

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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 16 2019 13:25 GMT
#24761
If you define the bourgeoisie as the most privileged upper class people of that given era, then yes. It gets weird when we get to time periods that prior to the renaissance, because the economic engine that defined the wealthy bourgeoisie is just starting get going.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23220 Posts
April 16 2019 13:28 GMT
#24762
On April 16 2019 22:25 Plansix wrote:
If you define the bourgeoisie as the most privileged upper class people of that given era, then yes. It gets weird when we get to time periods that prior to the renaissance, because the economic engine that defined the wealthy bourgeoisie is just starting get going.


I was thinking "class who own most of society's wealth and means of production." which has applicability outside of capitalism and more textual marxist interpretations, to be clear about my meaning.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 16 2019 13:38 GMT
#24763
On April 16 2019 22:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2019 22:25 Plansix wrote:
If you define the bourgeoisie as the most privileged upper class people of that given era, then yes. It gets weird when we get to time periods that prior to the renaissance, because the economic engine that defined the wealthy bourgeoisie is just starting get going.


I was thinking "class who own most of society's wealth and means of production." which has applicability outside of capitalism and more textual marxist interpretations, to be clear about my meaning.

I assumed as much. The concept of the means of production is a post industrial revolution reality of how economics functioned after that. “Production” was more dispersed prior to that, as is the power of “government” due to limitations of technology. Also, there were fewer people too. Not to say I don't understand what you mean by bourgeoisie, but the history student in me has a hard time fitting that circle into the square hole.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23220 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-16 14:08:52
April 16 2019 13:52 GMT
#24764
On April 16 2019 22:38 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2019 22:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 16 2019 22:25 Plansix wrote:
If you define the bourgeoisie as the most privileged upper class people of that given era, then yes. It gets weird when we get to time periods that prior to the renaissance, because the economic engine that defined the wealthy bourgeoisie is just starting get going.


I was thinking "class who own most of society's wealth and means of production." which has applicability outside of capitalism and more textual marxist interpretations, to be clear about my meaning.

I assumed as much. The concept of the means of production is a post industrial revolution reality of how economics functioned after that. “Production” was more dispersed prior to that, as is the power of “government” due to limitations of technology. Also, there were fewer people too. Not to say I don't understand what you mean by bourgeoisie, but the history student in me has a hard time fitting that circle into the square hole.


+ Show Spoiler +
I'm hoping people make similar connection to myself that I was trying to highlight from the Pharaohs, to the Yellow river, to Greece, Rome and eventually industrial/capitalist Europe, US etc...

They were all centralized (at least for their eras) civilizations with essentially the same phenomena, though clearly different iterations and peculiarities.

One consistency being large monuments/projects funded by a few people with control over massive amounts of human capital most frequently with a spiritual and bargaining feature predicated on extracting the wealth from the people they are 'gifting' it back to.


I think you're right that I should have used "oppressors" instead to be more readily clear.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-16 14:13:02
April 16 2019 14:11 GMT
#24765
The greatest pity is the lack of economical understanding when something like: "Rich dude gives 300 million to rebuild ND." is mentioned. It seems like that even in the most educated circles most people believe that this means some rich guy is conjuring some 300 million economic power out of nowhere, or "out of the past" by "spending" his "saved up" money.
The reality is that the money is redirected from other investments to this one, with all its implications on prices.

Rich people's money that is taken from skycastles like the stock markets and directed into the real economy is for the most part a curse for wage-dependent people, not a blessing.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
April 16 2019 15:10 GMT
#24766
Not to mention that the collectivity actually pays the most, since they get tax reductions in exchange for those donations... When they give 100, they get 60 back
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13924 Posts
April 16 2019 19:29 GMT
#24767
I'm seeing reports that the rose windows somehow survived the fire. Thats incredible. The damage apparently wasn't nearly as bad as people feared. I can't imagine where they are stashing some of the holy relics right now.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-16 19:43:53
April 16 2019 19:42 GMT
#24768
I imagine they can store all of the saved precious cultural items anywhere they like. It's not like they need a sterile environment or temperature and humidity controls.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
April 16 2019 19:44 GMT
#24769
In a lunar speech, Macron said that he wants Notre-Dame to be rebuilt in 5 years. As said earlier, according to experts at least 15 are needed. He will talk later about the decisions he has taken after the "grand debate". The presidency already leaked them and they're fairly weak.
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
April 16 2019 19:55 GMT
#24770
Sounds like Macron is taking a figleaf out of Trumps' book. Who needs experts? In fact, why not make it 5 months?
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
April 16 2019 20:01 GMT
#24771
On April 17 2019 04:55 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Sounds like Macron is taking a figleaf out of Trumps' book. Who needs experts? In fact, why not make it 5 months?

I think he should re-conjure the whole edifice out of thin air thanks to the sheer force of his will, that's how Jupiter would do
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9193 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-16 20:05:21
April 16 2019 20:04 GMT
#24772
Assuming money isn't going to be a problem, why does the reconstruction of the wooden parts have to take 15 or more years?
You're now breathing manually
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-16 20:09:24
April 16 2019 20:06 GMT
#24773
Art restoration is a pain staking process of research, experimentation, methodical skilled-manual labor and time. Art and historical conservators are notorious for refusing to be rushed and taking massive amounts of time with projects. So of course, this is something you can totally throw money at because there are an unlimited number of people with that skill set that can do the job and make it all go faster.

On April 17 2019 05:04 Sent. wrote:
Assuming money isn't going to be a problem, why does the reconstruction of the wooden parts have to take 15 or more years?

Because they will need to recreate it to look like the old structure, which not only means building something, but also making it fit in with the rest of the structure. While also assure the new materials do not damage the older materials in the building.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18825 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-16 20:08:01
April 16 2019 20:06 GMT
#24774
I assume the lengthy construction time relates to the ornate detail and retrofitting issues implicated by restoring a historically unique building.

Edit: also what p6 said :D
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 16 2019 20:19 GMT
#24775
I may have a passing hobby of reading and watching documentaries about art restoration. It is a fascinating profession filled with the most careful, meticulous humans humanity could produce. And they all love art and the preservation of art for future generations, to an unreasonable degree that can only be admired. There is no amount of government power or money that could make the people who will be involved with restoring ND rush the project. Because they will rebuild it to last 200 years, while also meticulous documenting the process so it can be cared for long after all the conservators who worked on it pass away.

Basically, Macron is full of shit.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11505 Posts
April 16 2019 21:03 GMT
#24776
You can totally rush it. Just send in a bunch of construction workers with a lot of concrete and bricks. It will just be really shit afterwards. But you can do it.
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-16 21:30:45
April 16 2019 21:12 GMT
#24777
But the wooden framework will become bricks and concrete! Honestly speeaking I suppose most of it will simply be the research and the nature of building something in a tight constrained area without damaging the surrounding walls.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
April 16 2019 21:41 GMT
#24778
On April 17 2019 05:19 Plansix wrote:
I may have a passing hobby of reading and watching documentaries about art restoration. It is a fascinating profession filled with the most careful, meticulous humans humanity could produce. And they all love art and the preservation of art for future generations, to an unreasonable degree that can only be admired. There is no amount of government power or money that could make the people who will be involved with restoring ND rush the project. Because they will rebuild it to last 200 years, while also meticulous documenting the process so it can be cared for long after all the conservators who worked on it pass away.

Basically, Macron is full of shit.


Couldn't you just hire more of them? As long as you can pay enough, use tax advantages to make the job attractive it is really just a question of the existance of a specialized workforce, right?
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
April 16 2019 21:42 GMT
#24779
Also I'm pretty sure everything is going to be build by hand as well.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7888 Posts
April 16 2019 21:48 GMT
#24780
On April 16 2019 22:38 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2019 22:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 16 2019 22:25 Plansix wrote:
If you define the bourgeoisie as the most privileged upper class people of that given era, then yes. It gets weird when we get to time periods that prior to the renaissance, because the economic engine that defined the wealthy bourgeoisie is just starting get going.


I was thinking "class who own most of society's wealth and means of production." which has applicability outside of capitalism and more textual marxist interpretations, to be clear about my meaning.

I assumed as much. The concept of the means of production is a post industrial revolution reality of how economics functioned after that. “Production” was more dispersed prior to that, as is the power of “government” due to limitations of technology. Also, there were fewer people too. Not to say I don't understand what you mean by bourgeoisie, but the history student in me has a hard time fitting that circle into the square hole.

France had a flourishing bourgeoisie in the middle age, although certainly not as powerful as later on in history. Some merchants for example were exceptionally rich and powerful, and many made history.

Look for example Jacques Coeur, in his time the richest frenchman that had ever lived. From wikipedia:

At this point, the great trader's glory was at its height. He had represented France in three embassies, and had supplied the sinews of the war which had ousted the English from Normandy. He was invested with various offices of state, and possessed the most colossal fortune that had ever been amassed by a private Frenchman. The sea was covered with his ships; he had 300 managers in his employ, and business houses in all the chief cities of France. He had built houses and chapels, and had founded colleges in Paris, Montpellier and Bourges. The house in Bourges was exceptionally magnificent and remains today one of the finest monuments of the Middle Ages in France. He also built there the sacristy of the cathedral and a sepulchral chapel for his family. His brother Nicholas Cœur was made Bishop of Lyon, his sister married Jean Bochetel, the King's secretary, his daughter married the son of the Viscount of Bourges, and his son Jean Cœur became Archbishop of Bourges. But Cœur's huge monopoly caused his ruin. Dealing in everything: money and arms, furs and jewels, brocades and wool, a broker, a banker, a farmer, he had absorbed the trade of the country, and merchants complained they could make no profit because of him. He had lent money to needy courtiers, to members of the royal family, and to the King himself, and his debtors, jealous of his wealth, were eager for a chance to cause his downfall


The term bourgeois simply means that they inhabited cities (bourg) and were not aristocrats.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
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