EPT47 churches damaged/attacked in February alone.
https://www.newsweek.com/spate-attacks-catholic-churches-france-sees-altars-desecrated-christ-statue-1370800
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 1238
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4329 Posts
47 churches damaged/attacked in February alone. https://www.newsweek.com/spate-attacks-catholic-churches-france-sees-altars-desecrated-christ-statue-1370800 | ||
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Dan HH
Romania9118 Posts
On April 16 2019 10:32 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Certainly not the first church to burn in French recent history. 47 churches damaged/attacked in February alone. https://www.newsweek.com/spate-attacks-catholic-churches-france-sees-altars-desecrated-christ-statue-1370800 What are you implying? | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
Nothing. Let me just demonstrate you how this works: There is an ongoing conversation. Now you come in by making a 'factual observation', e.g.: "Many right wing conspiracy nerds are full blown retards." This may or may not be connected to recent events in the world, this thread or the ongoing discussion, but you make sure to not let yourself pin down if you want to make the connection or not. Deniability is the key. It is all in the readers head! Of course, the 'factuality' of your statement might be highly debatable, but again, don't let yourself pin down on this. You were just making an observation here, those weren't your facts, you just wanted to share something very interesting. And if it is not 100% correct, whatever, not your fault. And then you just let it stand and if you are curious you can check if someone takes the bait. Mission accomplished. Should repeat at the next opportunity! If you are very zealous, you can nitpick mistakes in the counter arguments, but this is a high level skill most don't possess. (It should be mentioned, that even if your original statement is 100% bullshit, it is enough to find 1% bullshit in a counter argument, this is sufficient to launch a full blown attack on it. The truth of your original argument should not interfere here) | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Notre Dame was an inside job! Spread the word! | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8507 Posts
On April 16 2019 16:38 Big J wrote: Been to Paris two weeks ago and Sacre-Cœur is better anyways. Also Saint-Chapelle has better windows. I'm pretty sure the fire was set by the catholic church to extract pity money to upgrade Notre Dame and get it on a competitive level with the other Parisian churches again. Notre Dame was an inside job! Spread the word! I feel terrible for chuckling the whole way through reading, but too soon. just too soon. | ||
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Archeon
3253 Posts
On April 16 2019 10:32 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Certainly not the first church to burn in French recent history. 47 churches damaged/attacked in February alone. https://www.newsweek.com/spate-attacks-catholic-churches-france-sees-altars-desecrated-christ-statue-1370800 I'm not sure the people who desecrate altars and throw holy On April 16 2019 06:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:  Is the fire that hot to weaken or collapse walls. Gothic churches are built to let in a lot of light. So what they did was build a framework that takes all the weight and then build some very light walls around their huge windows. But the walls are basically decoration, carry nothing of the weight and as such are easy to topple, it's all on the pillars, columns and buttresses. In difference to Romanesque churches which doubled as fortified safe heaven Gothic churches were prestige projects optimized for height and looks and as such are very delicate. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5281 Posts
On April 16 2019 04:08 Nyxisto wrote: wow, just woowww, look at this guy trying to take the high road out of the mud the left dumped him in."The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function" , F. Scott Fitzgerald Sorry, politics is a little bit more complicated than nationalists might make you want to think, and when you're talking about global politics involving several layers of conflicting interests then yes, you will have to be able to deal with contradictions, that what it's all about. And of course nationalists get angry when they're faced with complexity and ambiguity. The primary motivation for all sorts of extremism is resolving tension. Be it different religions, ethnic groups, political organisations, whenever a situation requires to hold competing ideas in mind at the same time, nationalists tend to go for their guns, because they're inherently unable to accept that a situation demands juggling opposing interests. It says a lot about a person if they think that the ability to navigate conflict is "condescending" or "duplicitous", rather than a necessary skill to govern responsibly in the modern world. first off, that quote is like a quote from the bible: depending how you look at it, it could be something you sacrifice yourself for or kill others for. second, F.S.F just under that phrase gives an example as to a possible/probable (his own)interpretation: One should, for example, be able to see that things are hopeless and yet be determined to make them otherwise. which clearly implies that there is an objectively despairing/inadequate/incompetent reality one must try and rise above through own struggle/effort. he later continues with:“I must hold in balance the sense of the futility of effort and the sense of the necessity to struggle; the conviction of the inevitability of failure and still the determination to 'succeed'-and, more than these, the contradiction between the dead hand of the past and the high intentions of the future.” that is literally me: convinced of EU's failings as a union but still trying to see ways it could stop failing. you don't do that. you accept as is any action taken by your side(the leaders you agree with/are stuck with but endorse) while assuming that your (in)competent leaders did the best they could, took the most appropriate course of action given the multifaceted, opposing ideas held in their minds, given their S-class intelligence. i mean, they promised you a wall payed by the mexicans and barely delivered a fence payed by you; those are two very opposing realities/ideas people need to hold in their minds and still function. you should go to the USpol thread and ask them how do they still function?. oh, they're a first-rate intelligence holders/owners, yea ... makes sense. even when i take its most white collar meaning of them all, the one you alluded to - theoretically entertaining in a mind opposing ideas but let other minds decide for me the practical outcome of their weigh in, so i can excuse the result and pretend is was done in the interest of the majority, realize that it does nothing to any of my points/arguments. i'm talking mostly about acts, the physically measurable, quantifiable consequences of ideas(opposite or otherwise). when you can measure something and see it's not benefiting the majority or serves no greater cause that would benefit the majority later on, plus thousands of years of human history lessons, gives my arguments weight(at least from where i'm sitting). what you display there is faith, absolute faith in your leaders ... (i remember times when people had absolute faith in their leaders and it didn't turned out that well). but, for my personal satisfaction, it would be revealing to know how do you function holding in mind the idea that Hitler did some good things too 'cause for the most of the world, we'd rather be/have a second-rate intelligence here. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
Two cops and one firefighter were injured because of the fire. Their lives are not in danger. Experts are now examining the structure to determine what needs to be done. Billionaires who dodge taxes all the time now get the opportunity to launder their name by giving mass money for the reconstruction: Pinault's family gave 100 millions of euros, Arnault's one (Bernard Arnault's patrimony is worth 89 billions of dollars) gave 200 millions... Too bad we didn't take this money before, maybe we could have prevented this disaster with it... Paris' city gave 50 millions of euros. According to the police, the inquiry will be "long, complex and technical". Some workers have already been heard. The macronist party and the far-right suspended their campaign for the European elections. Funny, some fascist tard questioned the presence of a mysterious silhouette "contemplating" the fire (circled in blue in the image below), implying that this was of course an attack. It turns out that this silhouette is... a statue. They are just so horribly stupid, it's unreal. + Show Spoiler + The reconstruction could take between 15 and 20 years. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
Funny, some fascist tard questioned the presence of a mysterious silhouette "contemplating" the fire (circled in blue in the image below), implying that this was of course an attack. It turns out that this silhouette is... a statue. They are just so horribly stupid, it's unreal. Queue people in this thread, throwing random bits of information in - by no way meant to insinuate a connection to groups of people, of course. Basically every comment section i looked into on online newspapers are filled with these kinds of dipshits. You get everything from right wing conspiracy, muslims, anarchists, anti-catholics, etc - with one thing in common, this was intentional and "you'll never learn the truth about it". | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
(CNN)The cathedral of Notre Dame in Paris is home to scores of priceless artifacts, artwork and relics collected over the centuries, each with their own story. As a devastating fire tore through the revered Gothic cathedral on Monday, toppling its spire, many feared these treasures might be lost forever. A "forest" of wooden latticework fueled the blaze which consumed the building's roof, whose framework dates back to the 13th century, according to Msgr. Patrick Chauvet, the cathedral's rector. The Paris Fire Brigade tweeted that the cathedral's stone construction has been "saved," as have the "main works of art." As more information emerges, what has been rescued from Notre Dame is becoming apparent. Yet many details, such as possible water damage from the operation to save the building, are still unclear. The Crown of Thorns, which the cathedral calls its "most venerated relic." • The Crown of Thorns, which some believe was placed on the head of Jesus and which the cathedral calls its "most precious and most venerated relic," was rescued from the fire, according to Paris Mayor Anne Hidalgo. • Hidalgo confirmed the Tunic of Saint Louis and other "major" works were also saved. • The facade and twin bell towers, the tallest structures in Paris until the completion of the Eiffel Tower in the late 19th century, survived the blaze. The North tower was completed in 1240 and the South tower in 1250. • The cathedral's main bell, Emanuelle, lives in the South tower. It has marked significant moments in French history, such as the end of World War II, as well as holidays and special occasions. • The Rose windows are a trio of immense round stained-glass windows over the cathedral's three main portals that date back to the 13th century. The Archbishop of Paris said all three have been saved, reports CNN affiliate BFM TV. •The original Great Organ, one of the world's most famous musical instruments, dates back to medieval times. Over the years, organ makers renovated the instrument and added onto it, but it still contained pipes from the Middle Ages before Monday's fire. The position of titular organist, or head organist, carries great prestige in France and around the world. The Archbishop of Paris confirmed the organ is safe, reports CNN affiliate BFM TV. "We managed to protect the most precious treasures in a safe place," a Paris City Hall spokesperson told CNN. However it has not been confirmed whether individual items such as a fragment of the True Cross and one of the Holy Nails were saved. • There were also numerous sculptures, statues and paintings inside the cathedral depicting Biblical scenes and saints. One series of 76 paintings, each nearly four meters tall, commemorates the New Testament's Acts of the Apostles, including the crucifixion of St. Peter and the conversion of St. Paul. The works were completed between 1630 and 1707 by the members or associates of the Royal Academy of Painting and Sculpture. Another painting is from a series by Jean Jouvenet depicting the life of the Virgin Mary. All six from the series used to be in the cathedral. They were moved to the Louvre in the 1860s, and only "The Visitation" was returned to Notre Dame. A portrait from 1648 of St. Thomas Aquinas also graced the cathedral's interiors. • It is not yet clear how much damage there is to the cathedral's exterior, where a menagerie of menacing gargoyles and chimeras stand guard and a system of flying buttresses support the outside walls. A Paris police source told CNN that part of the vault has collapsed in the central nave, and architects are checking whether the structure is stable. • The cathedral also has an archaeological crypt under the courtyard. It was created to protect 19th-century relics that were discovered during excavations in 1965. It opened to the public in 1980. Source | ||
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plated.rawr
Norway1676 Posts
On April 16 2019 18:30 TheDwf wrote: The fire is stopped. Two cops and one firefighter were injured because of the fire. Their lives are not in danger. Experts are now examining the structure to determine what needs to be done. Billionaires who dodge taxes all the time now get the opportunity to launder their name by giving mass money for the reconstruction: Pinault's family gave 100 millions of euros, Arnault's one (Bernard Arnault's patrimony is worth 89 billions of dollars) gave 200 millions... Too bad we didn't take this money before, maybe we could have prevented this disaster with it... Paris' city gave 50 millions of euros. According to the police, the inquiry will be "long, complex and technical". Some workers have already been heard. The macronist party and the far-right suspended their campaign for the European elections. Funny, some fascist tard questioned the presence of a mysterious silhouette "contemplating" the fire (circled in blue in the image below), implying that this was of course an attack. It turns out that this silhouette is... a statue. They are just so horribly stupid, it's unreal. + Show Spoiler + The reconstruction could take between 15 and 20 years. I absolutely agree with you. These huge donations will reap a ton of positive PR, and will also be used by small government proponents as an example of how letting the wealthy keep more of their accumulated wealth is a good thing, completely overlooking the reality of the situation - that the sums offered for this are far eclipsed by taxes they have dodged which would benefit people much wider than just this narrow case. Is it good that people are willing to offer lots of money to an important cultural icon after a disaster like this? Yes. But there is always a billion other cases also needing funding which arent as prestigious that the government can not afford, which is ignored. Clamp down on tax evasion. Dont canonise exploiters of a bad system because of good PR management. Put your faith in the publically elected to care for the public, rather than the financially incentivised - only one of these are somewhat beholden to the well-being of their population. Edit: damn mobile autocovfefe | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
The prosecutor announced that no sign of arson (criminal intent) has been found so far. 15 workers were present yesterday. There was an alarm given at 18h20 but no fire was found. Then another alam was given and fire was noticed in the wooden framework at 18h43. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23221 Posts
On April 16 2019 20:28 TheDwf wrote: @m4ni: the patrimony in France is in bad shape precisely because those people don't pay the taxes they should pay. So when they come like great lords after the fire with all their money, it's basically like a thief giving back a small part of what he has stolen, saying "Look how generous I am !". And they want to be loved for that. It's disgusting. . Freire captured this well in Pedagogy of the Oppressed imo: In order to have the continued opportunity to express their “generosity,” the oppressors must perpetrate injustice as well. An unjust social order is the permanent fount of this “generosity,” which is nourished by death, despair, and poverty. That is why the dispensers of false generosity become desperate at the slightest threat to its source. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7888 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7888 Posts
On April 16 2019 10:32 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Certainly not the first church to burn in French recent history. 47 churches damaged/attacked in February alone. https://www.newsweek.com/spate-attacks-catholic-churches-france-sees-altars-desecrated-christ-statue-1370800 Talk of crap insinuations. The PP just said none of it looked like a criminal act whatsoever. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17982 Posts
On April 16 2019 20:44 Biff The Understudy wrote: I just read a twitter thread by a historian who was saying that ND was actually built with donation from very rich bourgeois who intended to extend their prestige, get the favour of the king and the church and buy a ticket to heaven. Nothing really changes 😉 Isn't that essentially how *all* churches were built? It was either a king wanting to show that he was richer and more powerful than everybody else, and the culturally acceptable way of doing so was by building big and imposing churches. Or it was the same happening at a city level. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23221 Posts
On April 16 2019 21:33 Acrofales wrote: Isn't that essentially how *all* churches were built? It was either a king wanting to show that he was richer and more powerful than everybody else, and the culturally acceptable way of doing so was by building big and imposing churches. Or it was the same happening at a city level. My knowledge of Europe is limited but I presume that's the case for most churches like ND but not a typical rural church. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7888 Posts
But such gigantic constructions were always financed either by the very rich, which would have been the bourgeoisie or the very powerful, which in Paris would have been the king. Interestingly enough, the king was often shit broke, especially at that time where the first embryo of modern state was starting to take form. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23221 Posts
On April 16 2019 22:02 Biff The Understudy wrote: Well cathedrals were not simple churches. Every town or village absolutely needed a church, while a 70 metres high cathedral like ND was, well, more superfluous. Especially considering it took over a century to build. But such gigantic constructions were always financed either by the very rich, which would have been the bourgeoisie or the very powerful, which in Paris would have been the king. Interestingly enough, the king was often shit broke, especially at that time where the first embryo of modern state was starting to take form. Which takes us back to Freire, no? "So I've done some horrific things, surely God (and more importantly enough of the population so I don't end up on a stake) will forgive me if 'I pay' to build this Cathedral (or whatever else)!?" — | ||
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