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European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 1205
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Oshuy
Netherlands529 Posts
On November 08 2018 07:01 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Not really sure why Macron is honouring any soldier, no matter how celebrated or in this case despised. In UK, Remembrance Day is a solemn moment, and Isuspect things are the same in France. It's not meant to be a grandstanding celebration of nationalistic heroes on a pedestal. I wonder if he came up with this on his own, or was it an advisor. It's just how things have been done for the past 50 years or so: remembering and honouring the soldiers that have fought in the war and those that have died for the country. In most villages/cities there is a monument listing their names to which the mayor would make a speach (and probably will for a 100 years anniversary). Over 30 000 such monuments were set in place between 1920 and 1925. In towns that have a military base, add to that the present soldiers at attention during the speach. President usually pays homage at the arc de triomphe in Paris ("eternal flame" burning under it to honour those soldiers) and sends flowers to the tombs of a few figures to honour them. Looking for "something more" to do for the 100 years anniversary, they have ended up with a 1 week presidential tour of all the key locations of WW1 in France. That decision is the weirdest to me. The honouring of the sodiers is expected. The name of Petain in the list is just a usual discussion point. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
Macron under heavy fire Emmanuel Macron's series of troubles is not ending. The latest uproar is about him paying tribute to marshal Philippe Pétain for his role in France's victory in WWI. Pétain later became the leader of the antisemitic French Vichy regime, legitimising France's collaboration with Nazi Germany. This included collaborating in the deportation of Jews. Pétain spent the end of his life in prison. Only the far right demands his rehabilitation. This latest controversy was triggered by a WWI remembrance ceremony next Saturday in honour of eight marshals, including Pétain. The army had been demanding it for a long time. With the Elysee palace well aware of how divisive the issue is, reports Le Journal du Dimanche, the decision was made to hold the ceremony, but without Macron. Macron defended his position with comments to the effect that he does not forgive anything but does not erase anything from France's history either, and that the press is creating gratuitous controversies. This is when the trouble started, and big time. Macron's comments drew fierce criticism from politicians and Jewish leaders, and the reactions went viral on social media. François Mitterrand had provoked similar outrage when it came out that he had been placing flowers on Petain's tomb on the anniversary of the armistice for years, a habit Jacques Chirac was quick to end when he came to power. Is there a political motive behind this? It is hard to gauge, but either way it could have political consequences. Marine Le Pen's Rassemblement National (RN) is currently the only party mentioning Pétain in any positive way. Macron's statement could be seen as an opening to RN voters. It has certainly angered supporters on the left. On social media there are some who proclaim they will never vote for him again. Jean-Luc Mélenchon predictably tweeted that this time Macron went too far. There is mounting outrage against Macron. Angry drivers as well as pensioners have confronted him during his public appearances on his tour of the WWI battlefields. Thousands of drivers are expected to block roads across the country on November 17, a grassroots protest organised via social media. Expect the grievances to continue gaining momentum. Macron may have won the battles with the trade unions over labour law reforms, but the outcome of this new angry wave is far less predictable. (Source: http://www.eurointelligence.com/public/) So it was apparently the army behind this ceremony, and Macron was aware that it would cause a controversy since he did not went personally there. And yet he drops this little sentence about the "legitimate" tribute to the traitor Pétain... In front of the growing controversy, l'Élysée said that no tribute will be paid to Pétain, "as foreseen" (the Minister of Armies had also said this earlier this week...). Pathetic mess. Macron is a child with no sense of history. Literally everyone could have predicted this controversy. Makes you wonder if it was on purpose or not; when gauging the behaviour of people in power, it's always so hard to decide between cynicism and stupidity. So far I go with complete recklessness on this one. "I don't forgive," said Macron about Pétain's acts. But who the hell he thinks he is? Does he think that he would have the power to "forgive" even if he wanted to?!? Our Mad King regularly appears confused since the Benalla affair this summer. He just lost ground, piling up blunder after blunder. He will be toast for the upcoming European elections (btw this remembrance was part of his electoral propaganda, built around his simplistic far-right = nationalism = war = Europe is the solution). | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
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pmh
1416 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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nojok
France15846 Posts
"Là où il y a un grand leader, il n'y a pas de populisme! Où est le populisme en Chine? Où est le populisme ici [Emirats arabes unis] ? Où est le populisme en Russie? Où est le populisme en Arabie Saoudite?" "Where there is a great leader, there is no populism. Where is populism in China? Where is populism here [UAE] ? Where is populism in Russia? Where is populism in Saudi Arabia?" The solution was under our nose all this time! Problem solved. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 12 2018 22:47 nojok wrote: Sarkozy : + Show Spoiler [original in French] + "Là où il y a un grand leader, il n'y a pas de populisme! Où est le populisme en Chine? Où est le populisme ici [Emirats arabes unis] ? Où est le populisme en Russie? Où est le populisme en Arabie Saoudite?" "Where there is a great leader, there is no populism. Where is populism in China? Where is populism here [UAE] ? Where is populism in Russia? Where is populism in Saudi Arabia?" The solution was under our nose all this time! Problem solved. That's old news, the second part of the 20th century is the only period in earths history in which the conservatives weren't pro-authoritarianism. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
But his quote is emblematic of the increasing authoritarian turns of the ruling classes. The old "liberal-liberal" (economically/politically) bloc is going to be more and more "liberal-authoritarian" to survive in front of growing resistance/unrest. Between democracy—even formal—and the preservation of their power, history shows enough what the ruling classes choose. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22332 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9297 Posts
On November 12 2018 22:47 nojok wrote: Sarkozy : + Show Spoiler [original in French] + "Là où il y a un grand leader, il n'y a pas de populisme! Où est le populisme en Chine? Où est le populisme ici [Emirats arabes unis] ? Où est le populisme en Russie? Où est le populisme en Arabie Saoudite?" "Where there is a great leader, there is no populism. Where is populism in China? Where is populism here [UAE] ? Where is populism in Russia? Where is populism in Saudi Arabia?" The solution was under our nose all this time! Problem solved. This has to be missing some context unless Sarkozy is trying to follow Schröder's example and work for Gazprom or some other company from those countries. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 13 2018 00:48 Gorsameth wrote: Could also be just attacking Macron on behalf of his own party, since there is a big "France doesn't have a strong leader, because there is populism" between the lines. Sarkozy defended Macron in his last interview On November 13 2018 00:53 Sent. wrote: This has to be missing some context unless Sarkozy is trying to follow Schröder's example and work for Gazprom or some other company from those countries. From memory the context is one of those overpaid conferences in the UAE. The theme was "great leaders". Sarkozy basically whined that democracy kills leaderships, so "great leaders" are now from non-democratic countries. Also some classic racist stuff about Africa invading Europe in the next decades. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On November 12 2018 23:42 TheDwf wrote: I love how Sarkozy picks 3/4 dictatorial countries where there cannot be "populism" since there cannot be any opposition to begin with... But his quote is emblematic of the increasing authoritarian turns of the ruling classes. The old "liberal-liberal" (economically/politically) bloc is going to be more and more "liberal-authoritarian" to survive in front of growing resistance/unrest. Between democracy—even formal—and the preservation of their power, history shows enough what the ruling classes choose. Russia isn't a Dictatorship, but you could argue Putin is himself a populist. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18285 Posts
On November 13 2018 18:31 iamthedave wrote: Russia isn't a Dictatorship, but you could argue Putin is himself a populist. Hmm, how is Russia not a dictatorship? Because it has "elections"? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 13 2018 18:31 iamthedave wrote: Russia isn't a Dictatorship, but you could argue Putin is himself a populist. As far as I'm concerned, "populism" has little to no meaning in its mainstream use | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4413 Posts
On November 12 2018 22:34 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I don't think Trump was there. There was rain apparently. There was also a supposed plot to assassinate Macron.People were arrested.Seems somewhat odd to assassinate someone who is at 21% favourability.Let him dig his own grave i say. Much more concerning is the new push for an EU army.The goal being to dissolve individual nations armies so they can no longer leave the union.With the perilous economic situation in Italy and Greece it’s no surprise they’ve announced it will be on the discussion table again at the Dec 4 meeting.They need to accelerate the army before nations leave on economic grounds. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
Much more concerning is the new push for an EU army.The goal being to dissolve individual nations armies so they can no longer leave the union.With the perilous economic situation in Italy and Greece it’s no surprise they’ve announced it will be on the discussion table again at the Dec 4 meeting. I kinda find it funny that all the republican conspiracy theorists jump out of the weeds because Macron suggested that - but there was utter silence when Victor Orban, you know, the conservative right wing tough guy leading hungary - not being on the best terms with the EU in the first place- called literally for the same thing two years ago already. Pretty sure that the (factually correct) reasoning of Macron has absolutely nothing to do with that. Right? Like, Orban was arguing that we need an army to defend against migrants etc pp (sounds familiar?) - whereas Macron argues that we need an army to weaken US influence. Now, the idea of an "EU army" can be disastrous. Or it could be the best thing since sliced bread, it all would depend on how it's done in the end. Fact of the matter is though, that people like you aren't actually concerned with the "EU army" - you're just pissed off because he called out the USA amongst other countries as reason for having said army. In fact, you were very firmly planted in the "the EU needs to spend more on NATO because they rely on us too much!!!!!11" camp. | ||
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