EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 1144
| Forum Index > General Forum |
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
|
TheDwf
France19747 Posts
| ||
|
RvB
Netherlands6324 Posts
On July 01 2018 06:12 TheDwf wrote: This is the EU thread, "liberal" doesn't necessarily mean "centre-left" or "progressist" ... Indeed. Liberall means liberal in the sense of Locke, Hayek and Friedman over here. It has little to do with the centre left as in the US. | ||
|
xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
On July 01 2018 03:10 iamthedave wrote: come on dude... And the tone of the 'right wing' media is more neutral, yes? You're putting the blame on the wrong source, is my point. Would ignoring populists make them weaker? Or would that strengthen their stance by giving them something to point to and say 'look, they want to ignore and to silence us'? Report the clear facts? If those facts are in ANY WAY NEGATIVE they will point and say 'look at how they're lying about us'. Facts like 'what they said', for example. You're blaming the liberal media for a basic interaction between populists and any media of any form. There is no way to deal with populists. That's the problem. Once they're built up momentum, nothing you do can stop them. the momentum building happens across decades, you see it build up across years and years yet do noting?. why is that?, just to act surprised and play the victim card when anything populistic does happen?. allow me to fucking laugh here. | ||
|
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 01 2018 09:41 RvB wrote: Indeed. Liberall means liberal in the sense of Locke, Hayek and Friedman over here. It has little to do with the centre left as in the US. Which is why I called it liberal press, because I don't see anything left in a press that, when confronted with ideas like property or inheritance taxes, tariffs or secularization, will call out "class warfare" and "radicalism", regardless how liberal your argument for these things is. I wouldn't limit it to these rather conservative-liberal thinkers though as they are not overly popular with most of their clientel (I'd say they are closer to Popper and Rawls), but it is obviously a media created by educated classes and for educated classes (and their needs). Just like the conservative papers they like to speculate how to get the masses on their side, rather than how to fullfill their wishes. | ||
|
sc-darkness
856 Posts
Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz said he sees his role as helping to ease regional tensions as he takes over the presidency of the European Union through the rest of this year. “We want to use these six months to build bridges in the European Union and reduce tensions,” Kurz said through a translator at a ceremony marking the transfer of the presidency from Bulgaria. “We are also focusing on building a Europe that protects, which is the motto of our presidency.” Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-30/austria-s-kurz-wants-to-build-bridges-reduce-tension-in-eu I thought Kurz was euroskeptic, but I guess he is playing a game right now to be more approachable. | ||
|
Sent.
Poland9331 Posts
| ||
|
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 01 2018 23:31 sc-darkness wrote: Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-30/austria-s-kurz-wants-to-build-bridges-reduce-tension-in-eu I thought Kurz was euroskeptic, but I guess he is playing a game right now to be more approachable. No, he is not a eurosceptic, he just behaves like one. From what he has said his role models seem to be along the lines of Cameron, Rutte and Fillion. He is pro-EU, heavily pro-Euro, pro-austerity and pro-free trade and against regulations. His main goal is to destroy socialism and he sees the old EVP as a problem/too weak/too socialist. Migration and firing against the EU is simply the way to get into power these days. The FPÖ has heavily dictated the course of discussion in Austria to be rather exclusively on these topics, so what he understood is that by adopting their language and their stances he could easily acquire a third of their potential voters, because those people are still aware that the FPÖ is a Nazi party. And by forming a coalition with them he is a chancellor without a populist opposition, so he is not confronted with idiotic, impossible and illegal demands three times a day. Additionally they share the common goal to destroy anything that is seen as socialism (that this just means he is replacing egalitarian/liberal subventions/taxes/regulations with subventions/regulations/taxes that benefit conservative/national clientel goes without saying. As always the conservatives are just socialists with the goal to use the state to conserve and increase the power of those already in power and ease the competition for them) | ||
|
Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
that's that I guess | ||
|
Mafe
Germany5966 Posts
| ||
zatic
Zurich15366 Posts
| ||
|
Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
On July 02 2018 06:44 Mafe wrote: I wouldnt miss him as a politician. But there's real talk about CDU and CSU essentially splitting, and for me this is still unthinkable right now. Just like brexit and Trump were. The german political system would become an even bigger mess than it is right now. And I have no clue what the long-term consequences would be. to me it feels like the CSU will take the chance and finally oust their (confused) supreme leader. I don't remember it vividly enough to make the comparisoin, but it feels like when Stoiber had to go. Too bad he pulled a 180. I went to sleep with a very good feeling about his retraction from all posts. | ||
|
Acrofales
Spain18476 Posts
On July 02 2018 16:16 Artisreal wrote: to me it feels like the CSU will take the chance and finally oust their (confused) supreme leader. I don't remember it vividly enough to make the comparisoin, but it feels like when Stoiber had to go. Too bad he pulled a 180. I went to sleep with a very good feeling about his retraction from all posts. CSU already trashed that chance and denied his resignation. So... | ||
|
Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
Too bad. Will have to catch up on the développent after work | ||
|
ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
| ||
|
iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On July 01 2018 19:30 xM(Z wrote: come on dude... the momentum building happens across decades, you see it build up across years and years yet do noting?. why is that?, just to act surprised and play the victim card when anything populistic does happen?. allow me to fucking laugh here. What exactly should be done? Once you've quit laughing about a topic you clearly don't know much about, of course. In our case, 'nothing was done' because Brexit was a fucking stupid idea. That's why only a populist would push for it. Neither party even considered it. One was happy with what we had, the other wanted to improve the relationship in certain ways (the Tory position). So yes, we 'could have done something' by doing something stupid and counterproductive. The only thing that would have counted for the people braying about the EU was leaving it. Nothing BUT that would have countered the populist call to leave the EU. We didn't want to leave the EU because doing so was a bad idea. You see the problem? Or are you laughing too hard? | ||
|
kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On July 02 2018 19:17 iamthedave wrote: What exactly should be done? Once you've quit laughing about a topic you clearly don't know much about, of course. In our case, 'nothing was done' because Brexit was a fucking stupid idea. That's why only a populist would push for it. Neither party even considered it. One was happy with what we had, the other wanted to improve the relationship in certain ways (the Tory position). So yes, we 'could have done something' by doing something stupid and counterproductive. The only thing that would have counted for the people braying about the EU was leaving it. Nothing BUT that would have countered the populist call to leave the EU. We didn't want to leave the EU because doing so was a bad idea. You see the problem? Or are you laughing too hard? Absurdly simplified approach, the causes of Brexit are obviously complex and interlinked in numerous ways but there are multiple decisions that multiple governments took, that they didn't need to take, that made the likelihood of Brexit greater. The idea that Brexit was a fundamentally irrational choice - rather than a rational one based on feelings, opinions or ideology you understandably think are stupid - gives too little credit to the role of successive UK governments in creating the conditions by which Brexit was possible (I don't include Cameron's initial decision to include a referendum within the 2015 manifesto as part of this role). | ||
|
Velr
Switzerland10978 Posts
Seriously? There are problems in GB, like everywhere else, but for which of these can you truely blame the EU? | ||
|
zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On July 03 2018 01:30 kollin wrote: Absurdly simplified approach, the causes of Brexit are obviously complex and interlinked in numerous ways but there are multiple decisions that multiple governments took, that they didn't need to take, that made the likelihood of Brexit greater. The idea that Brexit was a fundamentally irrational choice - rather than a rational one based on feelings, opinions or ideology you understandably think are stupid - gives too little credit to the role of successive UK governments in creating the conditions by which Brexit was possible (I don't include Cameron's initial decision to include a referendum within the 2015 manifesto as part of this role). I'm not sure what the difference would be between an irrational choice; and a "rational" one based off of feelings/opinions/ideology that are themselves irrational. or maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. could you clarify/elaborate on what you meant there? | ||
|
kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On July 03 2018 02:07 Velr wrote: So then. What are the reasonable explanations for Brexit? Color of your passport? Curvature of bananas? Polish ppl tking yr jewbs? Seriously? There are problems in GB, like everywhere else, but for which of these can you truely blame the EU? The explanations for Brexit are multifold and it's impossible to point to one with certainty. You could, for example, point to the gutting of local government and a constitutional arrangement increasingly clearly unable to provide particularly representative democracy, especially within England itself, as lying behind the Brexiteer slogan of 'take back control' - people felt, quite understandably, that the control they exercised politically was being increasingly eroded and blamed, somewhat understandably, the undemocratic EU rather than more national undemocratic structures. Brexit, though no one is doing so, therefore presents an opportunity to reconstitute and reform democracy within the UK and truly bring back control to people. What I was arguing against was the idea that, when the populists got up a bit of momentum (and anti-EU populists have been around since the 1970s) it was impossible to stop them. That is a ridiculous idea. A clear moment of contingency for Brexit was the 2015 general election - had Cameron lost, a potential EU referendum would have been kicked at least 6 years down the road and may have turned out differently. I think the 2011 UK veto on the single currency treaty and the 2004 decision to allow immediate freedom of movement from Poland were political decisions that had an enormous impact on the likelihood of Britain staying in the EU. Seeing those that voted for Brexit as irrational places too much stock in the value of the EU economically and as an organisation (I don't doubt the economic cost to Britain will be enormous, what I mean is that there are those who don't care). | ||
|
Velr
Switzerland10978 Posts
| ||
| ||
