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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 23 2017 14:36 GMT
#20041
MOSCOW — When a container of radioactive waste exploded at the Mayak factory 60 years ago, in one of the worst accidents of the nuclear age, the episode was so shrouded in secrecy that even residents of nearby towns had little clue of the danger.

That secrecy proved deadly.

Among the estimated 272,000 people who were exposed was a newborn girl who withered and died from radiation sickness. Taisia A. Fomina, a friend of the family’s, recalled that the girl’s father, ignorant of the danger, welded a bed frame from irradiated metal recycled from the nuclear plant. The child was poisoned as she slept.

Residents learned of the radiation risk only a year after the accident, said Ms. Fomina, now 84. “Some rumors went around town that something blew up at the factory, but we didn’t know what,” she added. “Of course, they didn’t tell us.”

Now, another possible accident at Mayak, a plant at the heart of Russia’s nuclear program, and the paucity of information coming out about it, is again raising alarms.

Last month, French and German radiation safety officials identified the southern Ural Mountain region, home of Mayak, as the likely source of a cloud of a radioactive isotope, ruthenium 106, that they detected wafting over Europe. The plant at Mayak reprocesses spent fuel and produces isotopes.

Ruthenium 106, which is obtained from spent fuel, is used mostly in medicine. It is considered not particularly dangerous because of its short half-life, 373 days, and harmless at the low concentrations that have turned up in Europe.

But mystery lingers around the cloud all the same.

The German Federal Office for Radiation Protection reported the radiation cloud, and then on Oct. 9 pinpointed its likely origin as the southern Ural Mountains in Russia or Kazakhstan. That is near the closed town now called Ozersk but known as Chelyabinsk-40 when Ms. Fomina worked there as a young woman from 1954 to 1960. The agency said that the cause of the cloud “is still not clear.”

French radiation safety authorities mapped wind patterns and reached the same conclusion: the contamination was floating in from somewhere near Mayak, a region of cedar forests, lakes and swamps about 1,000 miles east of Moscow.

The French nuclear safety institute, which tracked the cloud, said that if the accident had occurred in France, the authorities would have taken measures to protect the local population within a few miles, and taken precautions over longer distances to halt the sale of contaminated crops. But the concentrations in the air over Europe, the institute said in a Nov. 9 report, “are of no consequence for human health and for the environment.”

Puzzlingly, on Oct. 9, regional authorities in the Chelyabinsk region, home of the plant, issued a statement saying that the Russian state nuclear corporation, Rosatom, had regularly tested the air and that “the radiation background in the region is within norms.”

A string of official denials followed. The press offices of several Russian nuclear plants issued statements denying any accidents or leaks and asserting that they had detected no elevated levels of ruthenium 106 in the air. One spokesman, for a plant in Smolensk, told RIA, a state news agency, “this is a rare element and we would have noticed it.”

Rosatom, which runs the Mayak site, announced on Oct. 11 that, “the radiation condition around all nuclear objects in the Russian Federation are within norms, and correspond to background radiation levels.” The press office of the Ministry of Emergency Situations said on Oct. 13 that “no radiation cloud was found over the territory of the Ural Mountains.”

Then this month, the statements suddenly shifted. The agency responsible for monitoring radiation in Russia, Roshydromet, said it had in fact found in late September and early October what it called “extremely high” levels of ruthenium 106 at two monitoring sites near Mayak.

“The cover-up is more interesting than the accident,” said Frank N. von Hippel, a physicist at Princeton who advised the Clinton White House and who has repeatedly visited Russian nuclear sites.

“I think they’re probably more worried about upsetting the locals than the world,” Dr. von Hippel said. “This could be very disruptive politically of the calm that Putin has imposed on the place. The environmentalists are the most likely ignition point for any unrest.”

The Roshydromet statement about the ruthenium 106 levels was undated. Officials at the agency pointed it out on their website on Friday to a researcher from Greenpeace, Rashid R. Alimov, in response to a question about the radiation cloud posed by the conservation group last week.

The agency then published a statement saying that “the discovery of even insignificant concentrations of radioactive isotopes on Russian territory speaks to the high effectiveness,” of the Russian monitoring system. Environmental organizations, the statement said, were publicizing the incident to raise money.

“The heightened attention to this monitoring was created by some conservation organizations in the period of their budget formation for next year, with the goal of ‘elevating’ their importance in the eyes of the public,” it said.

Mr. Alimov said, “They say we were worsening the situation, driving everybody into a panic.” In fact, he said, Greenpeace has emphasized that the now dissipating cloud over Europe is harmless, though it may have posed dangers near the source.

What is worrisome, Mr. Alimov said, is the Russian government’s apparent reluctance to publicize information about a radiation leak, and a potential health hazard.

Officials at Mayak denied in interviews with the newspaper Kommersant that the plant was the source of the leak. Rosatom, the nuclear company, did not return calls to the press office.

Stepan Kalmykov, a chemistry professor at Moscow State University, told N+1, an online news portal, that while posing no health hazard, the leak clearly raised other worries in Russia and beyond. “Somewhere, apparently, the process broke down,” he said, “and nobody can guarantee that at the same place a more serious and more dangerous accident will not happen.”

The ruthenium cloud is not an indication of a reactor meltdown, which would spew a bouquet of many different isotopes, not just the one, said Vitaly G. Fedchenko, senior researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. “The release would have to come from a container or a place where already separated ruthenium isotope is stored,” he said.

Scientists say the ruthenium 106 release appears to be over. While European authorities have traced the cloud back to a region around the Mayak plant, the precise source has not been determined. It might have spilled in a transportation accident. “The problem is, we don’t know,” Mr. Fedchenko said.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union, coming on the heels of the Chernobyl meltdown in 1986, the framers of Russia’s new Constitution prohibited the classification of information about the environment, though that provision has been flouted before. The Mayak spill in 1957 is often compared in its severity with the two worst power plant meltdowns, at Chernobyl and at Fukushima, Japan.

In Chelyabinsk-40, residents were left largely in the dark, and the scope of the disaster was suppressed for decades. The source of the radiation that killed the daughter of Ms. Fomina’s friend — the radioactive bed — was discovered only after a teenage girl living in an apartment one floor lower also died. Three years later, the infant’s mother also died.

“People just didn’t know,” Ms. Fomina said. “Radiation doesn’t smell.”


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
November 23 2017 18:52 GMT
#20042
How are things going with your government, German fellows?
HolydaKing
Profile Joined February 2010
21254 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-23 19:05:53
November 23 2017 19:05 GMT
#20043
No news worthy of mention of course.
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
November 23 2017 19:10 GMT
#20044
On November 24 2017 03:52 TheDwf wrote:
How are things going with your government, German fellows?


President Steinmeier, CDU/CSU and FDP want to force the SPD to start coalition talks for a grand coaltion with CDU/CSU under Merkel.

SPD leadership so far says no. Lower tiers of SPD members of parliament want those talks to happen.

Linke/AfD promote reelections.

Greens are not entirely sure what they prefer.


Sunday I was expecting reelections, but if you ask me today, I don't consider them to be that likely anymore. Imho it will either be another grand coaltion, where the SPD can wish for whatever they want and CDU/CSU will say yes. (but will still get massacred next election...) . Or, there might actually be a pure CDU/CSU minority government, tolerated by the SPD. This would be the "compromise" where both sides would have to make painful concessions but could somehow keep face.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
November 23 2017 19:17 GMT
#20045
On November 24 2017 03:52 TheDwf wrote:
How are things going with your government, German fellows?


The German president now has a real job for a change and is going to / has talked to all kinds of different parties and especially the SPD (he was the former SPD foreign minister, Steinmeier) to talk them into another coalition because he's opposed to new elections. And actually getting new elections done is not that easy because the German parliament cannot dissolve itself (for historical reasons)
sc-darkness
Profile Joined August 2017
856 Posts
November 23 2017 20:18 GMT
#20046
I think this Germany situation is only bad because Brexit is ongoing. Otherwise, shit happens.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
November 23 2017 20:22 GMT
#20047
It's not really bad honestly. The busses still drive and the businesses still open, the world hasn't ended lol. Will just take some time to form a new government, but the old administration is still in place, it's not like anarchy has broken out over here

It's bad for Europe though because I don't think Macron wanted to wait for months with his reform agenda. This is effectively blocking it.
sc-darkness
Profile Joined August 2017
856 Posts
November 23 2017 20:26 GMT
#20048
No one said the world ended. It's just that France and Germany are the leaders in the EU, so pressure is on them to lead Brexit negotiations.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22414 Posts
November 23 2017 20:30 GMT
#20049
On November 24 2017 05:26 sc-darkness wrote:
No one said the world ended. It's just that France and Germany are the leaders in the EU, so pressure is on them to lead Brexit negotiations.

I think the UK government being in shambles is a much bigger problem for Brexit then Germany
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
November 23 2017 20:39 GMT
#20050
On November 24 2017 05:26 sc-darkness wrote:
No one said the world ended. It's just that France and Germany are the leaders in the EU, so pressure is on them to lead Brexit negotiations.

What?
So Michel Barnier is just in it for the free coffee?
passive quaranstream fan
sc-darkness
Profile Joined August 2017
856 Posts
November 23 2017 21:00 GMT
#20051
On November 24 2017 05:39 Artisreal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2017 05:26 sc-darkness wrote:
No one said the world ended. It's just that France and Germany are the leaders in the EU, so pressure is on them to lead Brexit negotiations.

What?
So Michel Barnier is just in it for the free coffee?


Doesn't he follow orders? I don't think he decides on his own.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
November 23 2017 21:17 GMT
#20052
The EU course for Brexit negotiations is pretty much set. We're essentially still waiting on what the UK is coming up with.
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-23 21:22:33
November 23 2017 21:21 GMT
#20053
On November 24 2017 06:00 sc-darkness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2017 05:39 Artisreal wrote:
On November 24 2017 05:26 sc-darkness wrote:
No one said the world ended. It's just that France and Germany are the leaders in the EU, so pressure is on them to lead Brexit negotiations.

What?
So Michel Barnier is just in it for the free coffee?


Doesn't he follow orders? I don't think he decides on his own.

Most likely true, although I'm under the impression, that he has some leeway to negotiate. After all every national parliament as well as the European parliament has to dignify the deal in the end (and it's super duper unlikely that the desired deal has been layed out by the individual governments yet,lol).
The EU's position is pretty clear for some time now and there isn't and immanent need for consultation due to the UK being stuck on the starting block of their brexit race... Thus I don't really see any effect of the current election on the progress of negotiations.
passive quaranstream fan
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
November 23 2017 21:49 GMT
#20054
On November 24 2017 05:39 Artisreal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2017 05:26 sc-darkness wrote:
No one said the world ended. It's just that France and Germany are the leaders in the EU, so pressure is on them to lead Brexit negotiations.

What?
So Michel Barnier is just in it for the free coffee?


Free coffee? There's no such thing as a free coffee! Margaret Thatcher would be proud that the UK is leaving this communist hellhole called EU!
sc-darkness
Profile Joined August 2017
856 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-23 21:50:39
November 23 2017 21:50 GMT
#20055
On November 24 2017 06:49 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2017 05:39 Artisreal wrote:
On November 24 2017 05:26 sc-darkness wrote:
No one said the world ended. It's just that France and Germany are the leaders in the EU, so pressure is on them to lead Brexit negotiations.

What?
So Michel Barnier is just in it for the free coffee?


Free coffee? There's no such thing as a free coffee! Margaret Thatcher would be proud that the UK is leaving this communist hellhole called EU!


I understand your sarcasm but Thatcher was campaigning to join what was the EU back then.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
November 23 2017 22:37 GMT
#20056
On November 23 2017 23:36 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
MOSCOW — When a container of radioactive waste exploded at the Mayak factory 60 years ago, in one of the worst accidents of the nuclear age, the episode was so shrouded in secrecy that even residents of nearby towns had little clue of the danger.

That secrecy proved deadly.

Among the estimated 272,000 people who were exposed was a newborn girl who withered and died from radiation sickness. Taisia A. Fomina, a friend of the family’s, recalled that the girl’s father, ignorant of the danger, welded a bed frame from irradiated metal recycled from the nuclear plant. The child was poisoned as she slept.

Residents learned of the radiation risk only a year after the accident, said Ms. Fomina, now 84. “Some rumors went around town that something blew up at the factory, but we didn’t know what,” she added. “Of course, they didn’t tell us.”

Now, another possible accident at Mayak, a plant at the heart of Russia’s nuclear program, and the paucity of information coming out about it, is again raising alarms.

Last month, French and German radiation safety officials identified the southern Ural Mountain region, home of Mayak, as the likely source of a cloud of a radioactive isotope, ruthenium 106, that they detected wafting over Europe. The plant at Mayak reprocesses spent fuel and produces isotopes.

Ruthenium 106, which is obtained from spent fuel, is used mostly in medicine. It is considered not particularly dangerous because of its short half-life, 373 days, and harmless at the low concentrations that have turned up in Europe.

But mystery lingers around the cloud all the same.

The German Federal Office for Radiation Protection reported the radiation cloud, and then on Oct. 9 pinpointed its likely origin as the southern Ural Mountains in Russia or Kazakhstan. That is near the closed town now called Ozersk but known as Chelyabinsk-40 when Ms. Fomina worked there as a young woman from 1954 to 1960. The agency said that the cause of the cloud “is still not clear.”

French radiation safety authorities mapped wind patterns and reached the same conclusion: the contamination was floating in from somewhere near Mayak, a region of cedar forests, lakes and swamps about 1,000 miles east of Moscow.

The French nuclear safety institute, which tracked the cloud, said that if the accident had occurred in France, the authorities would have taken measures to protect the local population within a few miles, and taken precautions over longer distances to halt the sale of contaminated crops. But the concentrations in the air over Europe, the institute said in a Nov. 9 report, “are of no consequence for human health and for the environment.”

Puzzlingly, on Oct. 9, regional authorities in the Chelyabinsk region, home of the plant, issued a statement saying that the Russian state nuclear corporation, Rosatom, had regularly tested the air and that “the radiation background in the region is within norms.”

A string of official denials followed. The press offices of several Russian nuclear plants issued statements denying any accidents or leaks and asserting that they had detected no elevated levels of ruthenium 106 in the air. One spokesman, for a plant in Smolensk, told RIA, a state news agency, “this is a rare element and we would have noticed it.”

Rosatom, which runs the Mayak site, announced on Oct. 11 that, “the radiation condition around all nuclear objects in the Russian Federation are within norms, and correspond to background radiation levels.” The press office of the Ministry of Emergency Situations said on Oct. 13 that “no radiation cloud was found over the territory of the Ural Mountains.”

Then this month, the statements suddenly shifted. The agency responsible for monitoring radiation in Russia, Roshydromet, said it had in fact found in late September and early October what it called “extremely high” levels of ruthenium 106 at two monitoring sites near Mayak.

“The cover-up is more interesting than the accident,” said Frank N. von Hippel, a physicist at Princeton who advised the Clinton White House and who has repeatedly visited Russian nuclear sites.

“I think they’re probably more worried about upsetting the locals than the world,” Dr. von Hippel said. “This could be very disruptive politically of the calm that Putin has imposed on the place. The environmentalists are the most likely ignition point for any unrest.”

The Roshydromet statement about the ruthenium 106 levels was undated. Officials at the agency pointed it out on their website on Friday to a researcher from Greenpeace, Rashid R. Alimov, in response to a question about the radiation cloud posed by the conservation group last week.

The agency then published a statement saying that “the discovery of even insignificant concentrations of radioactive isotopes on Russian territory speaks to the high effectiveness,” of the Russian monitoring system. Environmental organizations, the statement said, were publicizing the incident to raise money.

“The heightened attention to this monitoring was created by some conservation organizations in the period of their budget formation for next year, with the goal of ‘elevating’ their importance in the eyes of the public,” it said.

Mr. Alimov said, “They say we were worsening the situation, driving everybody into a panic.” In fact, he said, Greenpeace has emphasized that the now dissipating cloud over Europe is harmless, though it may have posed dangers near the source.

What is worrisome, Mr. Alimov said, is the Russian government’s apparent reluctance to publicize information about a radiation leak, and a potential health hazard.

Officials at Mayak denied in interviews with the newspaper Kommersant that the plant was the source of the leak. Rosatom, the nuclear company, did not return calls to the press office.

Stepan Kalmykov, a chemistry professor at Moscow State University, told N+1, an online news portal, that while posing no health hazard, the leak clearly raised other worries in Russia and beyond. “Somewhere, apparently, the process broke down,” he said, “and nobody can guarantee that at the same place a more serious and more dangerous accident will not happen.”

The ruthenium cloud is not an indication of a reactor meltdown, which would spew a bouquet of many different isotopes, not just the one, said Vitaly G. Fedchenko, senior researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. “The release would have to come from a container or a place where already separated ruthenium isotope is stored,” he said.

Scientists say the ruthenium 106 release appears to be over. While European authorities have traced the cloud back to a region around the Mayak plant, the precise source has not been determined. It might have spilled in a transportation accident. “The problem is, we don’t know,” Mr. Fedchenko said.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union, coming on the heels of the Chernobyl meltdown in 1986, the framers of Russia’s new Constitution prohibited the classification of information about the environment, though that provision has been flouted before. The Mayak spill in 1957 is often compared in its severity with the two worst power plant meltdowns, at Chernobyl and at Fukushima, Japan.

In Chelyabinsk-40, residents were left largely in the dark, and the scope of the disaster was suppressed for decades. The source of the radiation that killed the daughter of Ms. Fomina’s friend — the radioactive bed — was discovered only after a teenage girl living in an apartment one floor lower also died. Three years later, the infant’s mother also died.

“People just didn’t know,” Ms. Fomina said. “Radiation doesn’t smell.”


Source

Reading the source material that this story came from, it mostly looks like someone read a technical bulletin wrong. Which, to be fair, is very easy to do because it took me like 3-4 reads to understand exactly what was being said (a radiation report in Russian written in fairly dense technical language). Some other sources (e.g. this one) came to the exact same conclusion. The report gives some regions where radiation was elevated (at worst, 2-4x below danger level), and the Rosatom statement says that no plants were compromised.

The real story seems to be where and why some processed nuclear waste was released.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
sc-darkness
Profile Joined August 2017
856 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-23 23:36:15
November 23 2017 23:35 GMT
#20057
Out of curiosity, why doesn't Russia want to integrate with the EU? I'm sure stronger Europe is in their interests if they dislike US so much... Is it just because they can't control Europe anymore?
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
November 23 2017 23:42 GMT
#20058
Integrate in what sense?
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Mafe
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany5966 Posts
November 24 2017 08:32 GMT
#20059
On November 24 2017 08:35 sc-darkness wrote:
Out of curiosity, why doesn't Russia want to integrate with the EU? I'm sure stronger Europe is in their interests if they dislike US so much... Is it just because they can't control Europe anymore?

Well, my impression is this: Putin governs Russia in an autocratic style. Typically, this is ensured by a narrative like "the outside world is against us" or "we need to stand united", with a lack/suppression of critical opinions. From the outside, this seems to be the case in Russia currently. For example, the eastward expansion of NATO fits very well into this picture, in particular as apparently the NATO promised to not do so some time back.
So why would Putin want to integrate with the EU, if he keeps telling his people that the europeans are threatening Russia? It would deprive him of a basis of his power, as he would have to admit that the europeans arent that bad after all.
PoulsenB
Profile Joined June 2011
Poland7736 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-24 08:58:03
November 24 2017 08:57 GMT
#20060
On November 24 2017 08:35 sc-darkness wrote:
Out of curiosity, why doesn't Russia want to integrate with the EU? I'm sure stronger Europe is in their interests if they dislike US so much... Is it just because they can't control Europe anymore?

Russia doesn't want stronger Europe, they want Europe to be divided and weak so that they can bully everyone around and regain their old sphere of influence among the ex-communist states. Plus they'd never meet the requirements for joining the EU anyway.
IdrA fan forever <3 || the clueless one || Marci must be protected at all costs
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