EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 1005
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Buckyman
1364 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28736 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On November 27 2017 05:18 Buckyman wrote: Prosecuting incitement is one thing, but investigating someone for incitement for expressing a disapproved political position (anti-immigration) isn't just anti-speech but anti-democratic. Richard Spencer is a nazi, not "anti-immigration". | ||
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jodljodl
176 Posts
On November 27 2017 02:51 TheDwf wrote: @Nyxisto: does the SPD need a vote from its militants to make a coalition with the CDU again? He doesn't need to. But he recently stated in a video msg to the party that all members get to vote if the SPD leadership decides to take part in the future government. Source: www.youtube.com | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On November 27 2017 04:59 Buckyman wrote: Who is being prosecuted? Is Richard Spencer is not being prosecuted. Anyhow, unlike in USA, broadly speaking in Europe, inciting racial violence is not a political right, for historical reasons.Whelp, it looks like a major loss for political free speech in Poland if they're prosecuting people for saying the wrong things. | ||
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sc-darkness
856 Posts
On November 27 2017 07:43 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Who is being prosecuted? Is Richard Spencer is not being prosecuted. Anyhow, unlike in USA, broadly speaking in Europe, inciting racial violence is not a political right, for historical reasons. Agreed. It shouldn't be. | ||
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
On November 27 2017 04:59 Buckyman wrote: Whelp, it looks like a major loss for political free speech in Poland if they're prosecuting people for saying the wrong things. It's amazing that a government can crack down on its press, the courts, and become increasingly authoritarian, but the real problem here is whether saying being able to express certain opinions that are not being prosecuted is going to destroy democracy. They just banned Richard Spencer, not ban any of their nationalist parties who are way more radical than Spencer. It's like hearing a spoiled child cry. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5746 Posts
On November 27 2017 15:40 Shiragaku wrote: It's amazing that a government can crack down on its press, the courts, and become increasingly authoritarian, but the real problem here is whether saying being able to express certain opinions that are not being prosecuted is going to destroy democracy. They just banned Richard Spencer, not ban any of their nationalist parties who are way more radical than Spencer. It's like hearing a spoiled child cry. Where are you getting all that nonsense? The current government is not cracking on press. It's only favoring the press that supports them, as did the previous government. PiS is actually doing this to a lesser extent than PO. Where were you during the eight years of the PO & PSL government? Did you complain about that then? How is the current government "increasingly authoritarian"? It actually has a better track record with protests than PO... You may have a point when it comes not fixing the notoriously bad judicial system in Poland. They're mostly replacing people with their own (but PO did that too, just less blatantly), while not addressing the systemic issues (and creating some more). Also, which nationalist parties in Poland are more radical than Spencer? Any examples? | ||
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jodljodl
176 Posts
On November 27 2017 16:59 maybenexttime wrote: You may have a point when it comes not fixing the notoriously bad judicial system in Poland. They're mostly replacing people with their own (but PO did that too, just less blatantly), while not addressing the systemic issues (and creating some more). He may have a point? The intent of PiS to undermine the judiciary is obvious and they succeeded partially. "Creating some more systemic issues" is a nice way to describe a blatant move against one major pillar of democracy, i.e. separation of powers. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18199 Posts
On November 27 2017 16:59 maybenexttime wrote: Where are you getting all that nonsense? The current government is not cracking on press. It's only favoring the press that supports them, as did the previous government. PiS is actually doing this to a lesser extent than PO. Where were you during the eight years of the PO & PSL government? Did you complain about that then? How is the current government "increasingly authoritarian"? It actually has a better track record with protests than PO... You may have a point when it comes not fixing the notoriously bad judicial system in Poland. They're mostly replacing people with their own (but PO did that too, just less blatantly), while not addressing the systemic issues (and creating some more). Also, which nationalist parties in Poland are more radical than Spencer? Any examples? I thought he was aiming the sarcasm at the US and Trump.. and Americans (Bucky) coming here to complain that free speech was at risk in Poland. Good on Poland for stopping an actual neo-nazi from holding a rally. | ||
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
On November 27 2017 16:59 maybenexttime wrote: Where are you getting all that nonsense? The current government is not cracking on press. It's only favoring the press that supports them, as did the previous government. PiS is actually doing this to a lesser extent than PO. Where were you during the eight years of the PO & PSL government? Did you complain about that then? How is the current government "increasingly authoritarian"? It actually has a better track record with protests than PO... You may have a point when it comes not fixing the notoriously bad judicial system in Poland. They're mostly replacing people with their own (but PO did that too, just less blatantly), while not addressing the systemic issues (and creating some more). Also, which nationalist parties in Poland are more radical than Spencer? Any examples? What makes them unique is their crackdown Constitutional Tribunal and monopolizing bureaucracy, and its not press favoritism the same way Republicans here favor Fox and Democrats like CNN, its outright restriction. As bad as the previous governments were, they never went this far, especially with their attack on the judiciary. But I am not that upset about the crackdown of democracy in Poland, people are not being irrational when they express their frustrations at modern liberal democracy, but I just hate it when people are disingenuous about their stance and seem to think that making fun of SJWs and giving the finger to the EU is the only measurement of how strong free speech is. In regards to Spencer, Narodowe Odrodzenie Polski, Obóz Narodowo-Radykalny, and Ruch Narodowy are parties far more radical than Spencer, but they only make an appearance once a year at Independence day where everyone, including PiS remembers how much they hate their guts and then goes back to forgetting about them. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5746 Posts
On November 27 2017 18:03 Shiragaku wrote: What makes them unique is their crackdown Constitutional Tribunal and monopolizing bureaucracy, and its not press favoritism the same way Republicans here favor Fox and Democrats like CNN, its outright restriction. As bad as the previous governments were, they never went this far, especially with their attack on the judiciary. But I am not that upset about the crackdown of democracy in Poland, people are not being irrational when they express their frustrations at modern liberal democracy, but I just hate it when people are disingenuous about their stance and seem to think that making fun of SJWs and giving the finger to the EU is the only measurement of how strong free speech is. In regards to Spencer, Narodowe Odrodzenie Polski, Obóz Narodowo-Radykalny, and Ruch Narodowy are parties far more radical than Spencer, but they only make an appearance once a year at Independence day where everyone, including PiS remembers how much they hate their guts and then goes back to forgetting about them. The Constitutional Tribunal was always very politicized. You can e.g. read the leaked emails exchanged by members of the Tribunal. They discussed how to stop various reforms planned by PiS way before the government even presented any proposed legislative solutions. If you read about various scandals in which the judiciary/attorneys were involved (like the re-privatization in Warsaw, where long dead people were selling real estate at laughably small prices, etc.) you'll realize how rotten at least parts of our judiciary are. Is what PiS is doing a remedy? Hardly. But I don't think they have some nefarious goals. I agree that monopolizing the bureaucracy is bad. All previous governments did that. This one codified it. It's definitely a step in the wrong direction. As for the press, are there any restrictions I am not aware of? Are you talking about the proposed polonization of the press? I don't see that as a bad thing, to be honest. Foreign capital controlling most of the media landscape would be unthinkable in Western Europe. As for NOP, ONR ad Ruch Narodowy, I'd say that NOP is on par with Spencer while the latter two are milder versions. Ruch Narodowy (of which ONR is a part of) is anti-racist, at least on the declarative level (that was one of the reasons why NOP did not join Ruch Narodowy, because they are openly racist). Can you give any specifics of what you mean? On November 27 2017 17:25 jodljodl wrote: He may have a point? The intent of PiS to undermine the judiciary is obvious and they succeeded partially. "Creating some more systemic issues" is a nice way to describe a blatant move against one major pillar of democracy, i.e. separation of powers. What separation of power? We have had the judiciary and executive (both the president and the government) branches of the state crafting legislation for decades. Same for the parliament electing various officials (executive power, with influence on the judiciary in some cases). | ||
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
On November 28 2017 02:02 maybenexttime wrote: The Constitutional Tribunal was always very politicized. You can e.g. read the leaked emails exchanged by members of the Tribunal. They discussed how to stop various reforms planned by PiS way before the government even presented any proposed legislative solutions. If you read about various scandals in which the judiciary/attorneys were involved (like the re-privatization in Warsaw, where long dead people were selling real estate at laughably small prices, etc.) you'll realize how rotten at least parts of our judiciary are. Is what PiS is doing a remedy? Hardly. But I don't think they have some nefarious goals. I agree that monopolizing the bureaucracy is bad. All previous governments did that. This one codified it. It's definitely a step in the wrong direction. As for the press, are there any restrictions I am not aware of? Are you talking about the proposed polonization of the press? I don't see that as a bad thing, to be honest. Foreign capital controlling most of the media landscape would be unthinkable in Western Europe. As for NOP, ONR ad Ruch Narodowy, I'd say that NOP is on par with Spencer while the latter two are milder versions. Ruch Narodowy (of which ONR is a part of) is anti-racist, at least on the declarative level (that was one of the reasons why NOP did not join Ruch Narodowy, because they are openly racist). Can you give any specifics of what you mean? What separation of power? We have had the judiciary and executive (both the president and the government) branches of the state crafting legislation for decades. Same for the parliament electing various officials (executive power, with influence on the judiciary in some cases). Spencer does not have much to say outside of white identity. I have seen some stuff from him that could imply he is a National Bolshevik and he made a Tweet denying Holdomor, but that's it really. He also does not really talk about Jews at all. The three parties I mentioned are openly Third Positionist. They have very strong views about the traditional society (in contrast to the Hipster Spencer) are outright a̶n̶t̶i̶-̶S̶e̶m̶i̶t̶i̶c̶ anti-Zionist, and are militaristic. Spencer does not have anything as developed as that. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
"Hey look, WE are the advanced masterminds. Trust us, give us control and don't try to be free, you are not as advanced as we are. WE know what is best for you!" | ||
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sc-darkness
856 Posts
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
On November 28 2017 04:59 sc-darkness wrote: Aren't bolsheviks pretty much communists? In that case, nothing good can be expected and you should avoid them. Jeez, I mentioned National Bolsheviks because Spencer and his wife seem to have a weird fascination with Alexander Dugin who is certainly not a leftist and DEFINITELY not a liberal. The reason I mentioned it because Eurasianism and National Bolshevism is becoming a very popular trend in the far-right both in America and Europe. Just wanted to clear this up before a 10 page derail is traced back to me. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
On November 28 2017 04:59 sc-darkness wrote: Aren't bolsheviks pretty much communists? In that case, nothing good can be expected and you should avoid them. Sometimes you post so blatantly ignorant statements that it kind of overshadows your better posts. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5746 Posts
On November 28 2017 03:07 Shiragaku wrote: Spencer does not have much to say outside of white identity. I have seen some stuff from him that could imply he is a National Bolshevik and he made a Tweet denying Holdomor, but that's it really. He also does not really talk about Jews at all. The three parties I mentioned are openly Third Positionist. They have very strong views about the traditional society (in contrast to the Hipster Spencer) are outright a̶n̶t̶i̶-̶S̶e̶m̶i̶t̶i̶c̶ anti-Zionist, and are militaristic. Spencer does not have anything as developed as that. They indeed have strong views about traditionalism. How is that xenophobic, though? Out of the three, only NOP is openly anti-Semitic and racist. The other two are not, afaik. Przemysław Holocher, former leader of ONR, is part-Tatar, IIRC. The current leader is Aleksander Krejckant, which has some Jewish roots. I think you have an image of ONR from 10-15 years ago. The organization is not militaristic anymore either. They stopped using uniforms some 10-odd years ago if I am not mistaken. Spencer on the other hand advocates some form of ethnic cleansing. | ||
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sc-darkness
856 Posts
On November 28 2017 05:06 Artisreal wrote: Sometimes you post so blatantly ignorant statements that it kind of overshadows your better posts. And sometimes you act like you know everything, but the reality is you don't. What makes you even more ridiculous is the lack of arguments. That's so visible to others too. How are bolsheviks not communists? Have you ever studied history about Russia? | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
Hint: it's got nothing to do with Communists or Bolsheviks at all. | ||
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