|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
yes and yes. was split based on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact
In addition to stipulations of non-aggression, the treaty included a secret protocol that divided territories of Romania, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland into German and Soviet "spheres of influence", anticipating potential "territorial and political rearrangements" of these countries. Thereafter, Germany invaded Poland on 1 September 1939. After the Soviet-Japanese ceasefire agreement took effect on 16 September, Stalin ordered his own invasion of Poland on 17 September.[4] Part of southeastern (Karelia) and Salla region in Finland were annexed by the Soviet Union after the Winter War. This was followed by Soviet annexations of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and parts of Romania (Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina and the Hertza region). It was only in 1989 that the Soviet authorities admitted the existence of the secret protocol of the Nazi-Soviet Pact.[5]A concern about ethnic Ukrainians and Belarusians had been proffered as the reason for the Soviet invasion of Poland, rather than Soviet expansionism.
Moldova is now an even more split version of ex-Bessarabia. It was heavily russified after the russian occupation with its native (majority romanians) population deported in Siberian gulags while native russians were imported in. their official language is the romanian language but they also speak russian as a second language.
|
Moldova is a very complicated country. Half of (greater) Moldova is in present day Romania, the other half is Moldova, which lived in the Soviet Union for many years, and Russia 100+ years before that. This has created a very large gap between the two halves of Moldova. Basically there are Moldavians that think they should be united within Romania, and others who think very differently.
Within Moldova itself there are many divisions with their own agenda's. Gagauzia declared independence from Moldova after Moldova broke away from the Soviet Union, followed shortly after by Transnistria, both area's wanting to remain part of the Soviet Union. Unlike Transnistra, Gaguzia ended up as an autonomous region and a lot of people were not too happy about Moldova not becoming a federal republic (made up of Moldova, Gagauzia and Trasnistria).
Also like in many eastern european countries there is a political elite that fear for their positions of power if things were to change. The criminals and oligarchs that finance said politicians also fear for their financial well-being and pressure politicians into an endless loop of 'negotiations' without any outcome.
I guess you can say Moldova is the result of different people wanting different things to the point were nobody wants to give in and nobody gets anything in the end. People who profit from Moldova being in limbo would like to keep it that way. The EU or Russia for that matter cannot 'fix' Moldova, the people themselves need to do that. But these people will only get more stubborn the longer elites pit them against each other and can profit from a divided country.
edit: Think of it this way, instead of:
'The reason we live so shitty is because the EU wants to beat us into submission' or
'The reason we live so shitty is because Russia wants to beat us into submission'
It should say 'The reason we live so shitty is because of the fucking politicians who couldn't give two shits about the people of this country as long as foreigners are putting money in their pockets'.
edit2: btw Moldavian elections in two days. The country is basically divided in two between pro-Russian and pro-EU parties, looks like they are expecting wide-scale protests by whichever half doesn't win.
|
Do people in Romania want a unification with Moldova, do romanians consider Moldova part of Romania? I`ve always wonder that.
|
|
|
I had a kinda funny/weird experience today. I like to get kebap from time to time and chat a bit with the dude who makes it. He's turkish descent and lived his whole life in germany. We start talking about the city Duisburg, it has a lot of immigrants and he starts ranting " yea Duisburg used to be a lot of Turks there but now there's more and more Romanians coming and the Turks dont want to live with them because they are dirty etc" first I thought wow ok lets see where this goes then he adds "it's not even real Romanians it's those Gypsies"
and I thought to myself man humans are not that different no matter where you go
also when I see in dota2 for example when romanians write with each other and they use latin alphabet I feel like they speak some wierd mix of Latin and russian :o
|
@xM(Z
I was under the impression that ethnic Moldavians and Romanians were the same but different, kinda like Germany and Austria. Which came about because you were part of different empires/cultures for so long. Some people feel these divides are bigger than others was what I was implying.
|
On November 29 2014 01:08 Skilledblob wrote:
I had a kinda funny/weird experience today. I like to get kebap from time to time and chat a bit with the dude who makes it. He's turkish descent and lived his whole life in germany. We start talking about the city Duisburg, it has a lot of immigrants and he starts ranting " yea Duisburg used to be a lot of Turks there but now there's more and more Romanians coming and the Turks dont want to live with them because they are dirty etc" first I thought wow ok lets see where this goes then he adds "it's not even real Romanians it's those Gypsies"
and I thought to myself man humans are not that different no matter where you go
also when I see in dota2 for example when romanians write with each other and they use latin alphabet I feel like they speak some wierd mix of Latin and russian :o
gypsies and romanians are totally different people and have nothing in common.
|
That's the point of his story lol
|
On November 28 2014 17:33 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 05:45 tadL wrote:
Germany is doing fine with wars too. We sell tons of land mines for example and we sell some of the finest prostheses out there. Germany is interested in Wars like so many other countries.
The fight for resources is real and even Germans went out for it. And this should not be possible considering the constitution. And this scares me a lot. Can you please stop with this bullshit. Germany doesn't sell any land mines. On the contrary Germany is one of the most active countries in the fight against land mines and the clearing of land mines around the globe. Germany also didn't "go out for the fight for resources". If you make absurd claims like this provide some evidence.
Not true we still produce Mines. They are just called Anti vehicle Mines. But to believe that Germany is out of Business is silly. And ehm you forgot Peter Struck? "Die Sicherheit der Bundesrepublik Deutschland wird auch am Hindukusch verteidigt"
|
@Skilledblob - yes, the language comes from the so called vulgar latin which was adopted by the Dacians after they were conquered by the Roman Empire (from there comes the name too romans->romanization->romanians)
@zeo, we're the same ethically; Moldova, as a whole (both the current romanian side and the current moldavian side), until the russian rule, were occupied, at the same time, by the same empires: (austro)hungarian, ottoman, had some skirmishers with the poles, tatars...
the perceived difference of today comes from the ethnic and cultural cleansing brought on by the russians on the moldavian side, after the split.
|
interesting knowledge bits and such from eastern europe, keep it coming 
and yeah skilledbob I know what you mean, our FPOE for example tries to use this phenomenon to cater to (christian) serbs/yugoslavians by calling them "good migrants" vs. the "bad ones" - muslims. people are the same everywhere, they will whenever they can look down unto others they perceive as "lower" than themselves in social status etc...
|
On November 29 2014 01:19 zeo wrote:
@xM(Z
I was under the impression that ethnic Moldavians and Romanians were the same but different, kinda like Germany and Austria. Which came about because you were part of different empires/cultures for so long. Some people feel these divides are bigger than others was what I was implying.
Romanians (Wallachians) were using Cyrillic alphabet and had heavy Russian influence until the late 19th century when they united with the other principality of Moldova and changed to Latin letters and reformed their language. Moldova has always been more isolated from Western powers while Wallachia was more often a battleground because of it's Ottoman and Black Sea proximity.
So I imagine Moldova was slower in "becoming Latin" from start, but this was amplified a lot by Soviet meddling.
|
On November 29 2014 04:36 EtherealBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2014 01:19 zeo wrote:
@xM(Z
I was under the impression that ethnic Moldavians and Romanians were the same but different, kinda like Germany and Austria. Which came about because you were part of different empires/cultures for so long. Some people feel these divides are bigger than others was what I was implying. Romanians (Wallachians) were using Cyrillic alphabet and had heavy Russian influence until the late 19th century when they united with the other principality of Moldova and changed to Latin letters and reformed their language. Moldova has always been more isolated from Western powers while Wallachia was more often a battleground because of it's Ottoman and Black Sea proximity. So I imagine Moldova was slower in "becoming Latin" from start, but this was amplified a lot by Soviet meddling.
about that: it was romanian language written in cyrilic dialect but it came mostly from the greeks not from the russians.
Greek alphabet -> Glagolitic alphabet -> Cyrillic ->Romanian Cyrillic
Wallachians had way more to do with hungarians and ottomans than russians. Moldavia had to do more with russians, ottomans, tatars and sometimes pollacks.
(also, in romanian language Wallachia was literally called the Romanian Country / the Country of Romania thing which may cause confusion when talking about Romanians in general)
|
On November 28 2014 20:21 xM(Z wrote:
well we have a freshly elected president here which happens to be german (Klaus Iohannis) and so far, to me, it seems that his (election)sponsors were the US of A.
because:
- weird shenanigans started happening with pressure on both Romania and Republic of Moldova from US, hinting at a desire/need to bring the countries closer (how closer remains to be seen).
we're closer anyway and had many times talked about re-unification but the fear-mongering (fueled by terms like economic recession/collapse for ex) of people and/or the political climate (basically presidents/prim ministers sponsored by parties that didn't want us united) prevented both parties from making any headway in that direction.
now, as i said, US is pushing both Romania and Moldova closer (basically they're telling us they would be OK with ... whatever).
fast forwarding and adding some assumptions: we get united, Moldova gets into NATO by affiliation but, with a self proclaimed independent country on its territory (Transnistria), country which happens to host a russian military base, it has the potential of becoming a major altercation in the US - Russia tug of war.
America puppetted Romania with a German to screw Russia by having its puppet annex another country which also has a Russian base? Really?
|
it's kinda funny how reflexively Sub40 reacts to anything he percieves as remotely anti-USA.
Are there actually still people speaking german in Romania? I mean Klaus Iohannis obviously his first name is german, though his family name sounds greek to me. I think a region that's called "Siebenbürgen" ( kinda translates into Seven Castles / fiefdoms ) in german would be in present day Romania.
|
really interesting to hear about Moldova inside Romania..I did not know any of that. I had the general impression that they were originally part of the USSR Hegemony. After the Berlin Wall fell and Russia contracted to smaller state, I sort of figured they became client states of Russia instead of being inside the USSR. Same Old Situation.
There are Roma (aka 'gypsies' although I guess that is really unpopular to say) that live in Finland & they walk around Helsinki in dresses/pompadours that look like something from the 18th century, almost like 2nd class citizens. They disturb old folks, as I recall. I heard from a guy I know who works in IT at Google in Finland that they steal, but I did not see any of that myself & they seemed like very good people, if a little strange.
They definitely wore completely 'off' clothes in public though, seriously. I'm talking about the oldest preserved hats that were like what you see in history books as what the Tartars wore, & stuff, and dresses that were probably rich in tone in the past but looked like something from the Middle Ages now. And weird glasses. It reminded me of the cover letters I would read in Euro class from like Catherine the Great to her Russian consort. From an official economic standpoint it seems like they contribute very little & probably survive on the 'shoreline' of society. You don't really see businesses made by Romani folk inside Helsinki that often.
|
On November 29 2014 08:48 Skilledblob wrote:
it's kinda funny how reflexively Sub40 reacts to anything he percieves as remotely anti-USA.
I reflexively react to conspiracy theories. His comment isnt anti-USA, his comment is anti-Romanian.
edit:
Actually, I thought about his comment some more and it is also anti-USA but not in the way that you think it is. To you America manipulating Romanian elections is a prima facia bad but to me claiming that American manipulated Romanian elections in an intricate and complex plot to then annex Moldova to chase out Russian troops out of Transdnestria is actually an insult to evil Americans genius. Why would they want to go through some kind of movie villain-esque plot to get rid of one base that serves no strategic purpose and costs money to maintain? They have a much easier way to break Russia: drive down oil prices to, cause Russia to continue increasing its defense budget while cutting other areas and hand over more territories that Russia has to pay money to maintain -- ie Crimea -- that puts a further strain on their already diminished budget. If Americans wanted to bankrupt Russia they would be the most ardent supporters of the Euroasian Union and would push more countries to join it. The more the merrier. For America. AND eeeeeeeeeeeevil.
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
xm(z is pretty out there.
|
On November 29 2014 09:02 Sub40APM wrote:
If Americans wanted to bankrupt Russia they would be the most ardent supporters of the Euroasian Union and would push more countries to join it. The more the merrier. For America. AND eeeeeeeeeeeevil.
lawl. That's a funny one, Sub40apm. I'm guessing you're from Moldova? Yeah I would imagine that there are probably all sorts of divergent theories going on inside Romania about those dastardly Americans. Lol.
To that I would say, the US already has Estonia in NATO, if I'm not mistaken, which is a direct jab at Russian hegemony right near St. Petersburg, cutting down on Russia's [formerly USSR's] sphere of influence considerably. Granted, when the Berlin Wall fell & the USSR disintegrated, a lot of that already happened, but that really put the nail in the coffin. And I think that the US was campaigning hard to allow Georgia to join NATO a few years ago, but Russia sniped that idea down, presumably because they figured the US would start loading Georgia up with nukes. This sort of heavy & overtly aggressive political saber-rattling by the US is actually what spurred on the Cuban Missile Crisis in the 1960's. Nuclear war was only averted there by some 5-star diplomacy by JFK. world politics = crazy amirite??? To put things into perspective, the Cold War situation got much better over time with Reagan in power, at least after the Iran-Contra fiasco. And Krushchev was more reasonable than past heads of Russia.
e: nvm i guess Sub40apm is from the US.
|
On November 29 2014 02:32 tadL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 17:33 zatic wrote:On November 28 2014 05:45 tadL wrote:
Germany is doing fine with wars too. We sell tons of land mines for example and we sell some of the finest prostheses out there. Germany is interested in Wars like so many other countries.
The fight for resources is real and even Germans went out for it. And this should not be possible considering the constitution. And this scares me a lot. Can you please stop with this bullshit. Germany doesn't sell any land mines. On the contrary Germany is one of the most active countries in the fight against land mines and the clearing of land mines around the globe. Germany also didn't "go out for the fight for resources". If you make absurd claims like this provide some evidence. Not true we still produce Mines. They are just called Anti vehicle Mines. But to believe that Germany is out of Business is silly. And ehm you forgot Peter Struck? "Die Sicherheit der Bundesrepublik Deutschland wird auch am Hindukusch verteidigt"
Germany is part of the ban on anti-personnel landmine and has been for 20 years or so. Production, sell and storage have been banned and the German army no longer has any. A bit later, cluster bombs (which are basically anti-personnel landmines dropped from a larger bomb) were also banned. Latest was an argument on banning banks from loaning/investing in international companies that had such a production.
Yes, there are still anti-vehicle landmines. Those are a completely different beast. Anti-personnel are cheap, created to maim soldiers walking in an area. Large number deployed, still active decades after having been scattered, with injuries on civilians long after wars ended. Anti-vehicle are more expensive, used in low numbers to target armored vehicles.
Can anti-vehicle trigger on a civilian car after war is ended ? Of course. Do they ? Yes, there are ~1000 civilians wounded/killed worldwide each year. But linking that to german prosthetics production is just trolling.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
