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Settle this Fight Debate - Page 10

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Nyovne
Profile Joined March 2006
Netherlands19141 Posts
November 26 2006 05:49 GMT
#181
On November 26 2006 12:25 Klogon wrote:
Basically, the guy on the defence has the advantage. If you're the guy with the bat, and you try to attack, you'd do so by swinging back and forth, which would allow openings due to the recovery time of swinging a heavy object at a high velocity. Those of you who say "it is only 4 lbs at most" aren't factoring in the speed and torque at which a bat is swung. Angular momentum is greater than you'd think for an object with the length of a bat. If you are gonig for damage, you're swinging the thing FAST and hard, otherwise it is quiet useless. So the bat's swing must be dead on and precise.

But then again, the knife guy doesn't want to get hit, because if it he gets hit and doesn't manage to inflict damage on the bat guy, he's at a major disadvantage. Imagine being hit, then bat guy managing to get away from knife guy and then back to square one. Of course, that really only applies when knife guy charges or if the bat guy manages to get a clean hit while attacking, which seems fairly unlikely.

Most people here seem to assume the knife is the first to attack, probably based on a real life situations where the "knife" is often the aggressor because it is a deadly weapon, but the person who is on defence in this senario is one with the upper hand.

That said, it is far easier to inflict battle winning damage with a knife than a bat. Meaning, there is less room for error once you are within striking distance. If the bat man will mess up 40-60% of the time with this swing against a charging knife guy, he's dead everytime he messes up. But the knife guy will be victorious 100% when he gets within striking distance and does his thing.

Assuming both know it is for death, I'd give it to the knife man. If it is a normal street fight, I'd give it to the bat because noboday wants a broken arm and a homocide trial awaiting them. It just takes a lot more for a man to knowingly BREAK his own arm and then STAB another man than it takes just to swing a bat at somebody's body, although a headstrike would take a lot. So basically it gets down to the psychology of it.

Oh, and I'd like to add that the sword analogy doesn't apply because a sword is a deadly weapon which one hit gaurantees victory while the same doesn't apply for a bat. It's like saying the knife guy having a pair of chopsticks is the same thing -- it really isn't.

EDIT: Okay, I'm thinking about it more, and the knife guy for sure. The bat guy doesn't know for sure WHEN the knife guy may attack (he has to defend because attacking is suicidal here). So if you picture it, the bat guy must have the bat cocked back waiting for the opportunity to strike. He swings too early and he's done for and he knows it. If he swings late or not hard enough, he's done. There's just too much "perfect" to do. The knife guy can fake a few times and then jump in. The surprise of it usually would allow the swing to be less than full force. I'd say the best way to use the bat may even to use the butt of it and bring it down on the knife assalients head if he gets in that close without bat guy taking a swing yet, and try to knock him out or just temprary ground the guy, even if it means taking a shot in the stomach with the knife. Then it's just a matter of stabbing the knife guy with his open weapon when he's out for a while -- but this is a really dependent on where you get stabbed -- a heart strike would be fatal fast.

^
Concludes the thread.

The people argumenting the bat side are always leaving out convenient details and things stated against them. Just read Klogon's post, it pretty much sums it up. Good post Klogon and well argumented.
ModeratorFor remember, that in the end, some are born to live, others born to die. I belong to those last, born to burn, born to cry. For I shall remain alone... forsaken.
Nyovne
Profile Joined March 2006
Netherlands19141 Posts
November 26 2006 05:57 GMT
#182
On November 26 2006 14:49 oneofthem wrote:
i would say you understand very little about anarchy. any violence is coercion and therefore an archy.

Now you're just being circumstancial. Under anarchy people mostly envision a state of society, not the order in a single event. So before you start down this path you might want to specify the course of action or circumstance you're argumenting here.

Consistent violence is almost always a sure road to anarchy for civilised people since it leads to (civil) war or a means to keep society in a state of disorder by use of terrorism. Though I concur it can be used to impose order onto things through coercion, take Nazi Germany for example or Sovjet Russia. (Im sure theres western countries as well but these spring to mind first, sorry to be stereotypical)

But a state in archy or order will rarely exist on basis of violence and even more rarely will keep existing on that basis due to human nature. Anarchy on the other hand will in practise almost always involve violence, again due to its basis in human nature.

Anyway I'm taking the thread away and hijacking, sorry. This is for another thread, might be interesting for someone to start one and have a good discussion concerning it. Could be interesting as long as people keep it civil and stay precise about what it's state they are argumenting about.

ModeratorFor remember, that in the end, some are born to live, others born to die. I belong to those last, born to burn, born to cry. For I shall remain alone... forsaken.
Wysp
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
Canada2299 Posts
November 26 2006 05:57 GMT
#183
Fallacy of division and hypostatization plague 'knife wins' arguments.


The idea of a bat being easy to swing/move with still eludes many. Perhaps you guys haven't played baseball since you've grown some man muscles?
an overdeveloped sense of self preservation
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
November 26 2006 06:27 GMT
#184
please do not debate offtopic things here. for one i will say that that discussion is framed by my definition of anarchy, and the situation is one in which blackjack did not understand what i meant by anarchist. The politics side of things is not that important for me now, i'd rather talk about ethics and what is ethics, something along those lines.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
doedrikthe2nd
Profile Joined July 2005
Sweden981 Posts
November 26 2006 07:42 GMT
#185
Knife wins. You can take a bat hit to your arm, it takes a real big swing to break it, and even if its breaks you probably have the knife in the other hand anyway and then you just have to stab him and it's over.
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
November 26 2006 07:49 GMT
#186
On November 26 2006 12:55 BeSiGeR wrote:
**with the bat you will break an arm at best. with a knife you will kill. knife win**
what the fuck, a bat cant kill ?? ok thats good to know next time i get my skull cracked with a bat


you really just expect the knife guy to stand there and get hit? If someone swings a large object toward your head, you dont react?

The person with the knife will ward off the blow with their hand. If they are stupid enough to use their knife hand to block, the knife will fall and it will become a grapple over control of the bat. If he uses his other arm to block, gg. if he dodges it, or he deflects it, no chance in hell for the bat guy. This quesion isnt even close.
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
Last Romantic
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States20667 Posts
November 26 2006 07:49 GMT
#187
Butterfly knives are scary. You can cut yourself if you don't know how to use one. Of course, a well trained balisong-wielding guy can slice up a bat-wielding guy pretty badly.

Too many ifs.

I'd bet on the knifer, though.
ㅋㄲㅈㅁ
DarK]N[exuS
Profile Joined April 2006
China1441 Posts
November 26 2006 08:00 GMT
#188
Ok several things:

Analyzing a street fight with physics is stupid, because anyone who has been in/seen a street fight knows that bat>knife, EASILY

Unless you're fucking 350 pounds of pure muscle and even then, if someone breaks your arm when you "block with it and then you have the knife in the other hand its over," you're going to fucking scream, drop the knife, and fall down because HE JUST BROKE YOUR ARM WITH A PIECE OF WOOD.


The person with the knife will ward off the blow with their hand. If they are stupid enough to use their knife hand to block, the knife will fall and it will become a grapple over control of the bat. If he uses his other arm to block, gg. if he dodges it, or he deflects it, no chance in hell for the bat guy. This quesion isnt even close.


.....lol.

If they are supposed to be of equal skill, then all you people saying that the knife guy would dodge and take openings are wrong again, because the bat guy is supposed to be that skilled too.

Where joy exists despair will always beckon.
PaeZ
Profile Joined April 2005
Mexico1627 Posts
November 26 2006 08:00 GMT
#189
debate was not well devised, therefore its a tie
yubee
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States3826 Posts
November 26 2006 08:13 GMT
#190
the easiest way to all kill with the knife would be to lunge in, wait for the swing, then parry the baseball bat with the knife

pa CHING!

then after than use your quarter circle back spin kick but first glue the knife onto your foot with crazy glue
Nyovne
Profile Joined March 2006
Netherlands19141 Posts
November 26 2006 08:13 GMT
#191
On November 26 2006 17:00 PaeZ wrote:
debate was not well devised, therefore its a tie


Why try to douse the flames of biased discussion. It's all about ill devised debates and statements else it wouldn't be any fun would it!

Fuck a tie outcome, KNIFE FOR THE FUCKING WIN! :p
ModeratorFor remember, that in the end, some are born to live, others born to die. I belong to those last, born to burn, born to cry. For I shall remain alone... forsaken.
Nyovne
Profile Joined March 2006
Netherlands19141 Posts
November 26 2006 08:15 GMT
#192
On November 26 2006 17:13 yubee wrote:
the easiest way to all kill with the knife would be to lunge in, wait for the swing, then parry the baseball bat with the knife

pa CHING!

then after than use your quarter circle back spin kick but first glue the knife onto your foot with crazy glue

You may be onto something there, lets ask Chuck how he feels about this.
ModeratorFor remember, that in the end, some are born to live, others born to die. I belong to those last, born to burn, born to cry. For I shall remain alone... forsaken.
Klogon
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
MURICA15980 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-11-26 08:25:03
November 26 2006 08:17 GMT
#193
Well the guy with the bat of course will move around. When knifer comes close, he'll swing toward arm / whatever he can hit, manuver, and try to keep the distance. But this is only assuming the knife guy is on the offensive... assuming knifer is like charging. But manuvering and getting extra hits is key for the batter. That seems fairly hard though... this isn't a video game fighting game. People in real life move with far better agility and things move quickly. Just because the bat swings doesn't mean it will even land with much force. It's like how somebody mentioned in a real street fight it is rare that a punch will land directly with full force. There has to be velocity and accuracy... the end of the bat must strike the target, not near the base. THAT is where the analogy of the sword and the bat falls apart.

A sword can slice. You don't need to bring it around, use all your muscles, and swing the bastard to inflict damage. Small cuts here and there jabbing here and there, etc is very effective. Plus, unlike against a batter, a knifer would never be able to charge a sword... think sword stab > knife stab. Is that so hard to grasp?

For some of the heavier bats or if the guy is holding his knife all out away from his body and not protecting it much, I can also see somebody holding the fat part of the bat and using the skinnier side for the increased speed to use as a sort of disarming device against the knife. Someone who knows how do that properly would have a great advantage because the handicap of a heavy object with slow recovery is greatly reduced. But this approach also decreases the immediate danger factor of the bat -- a swing is unlikely to do as much damage so blocking the strikes will become more effective for the knifer. But it is a compromise a weaker batter may take.
Klogon
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
MURICA15980 Posts
November 26 2006 08:19 GMT
#194
On November 26 2006 12:53 Way wrote:
that and you still don't bother to see the context of why i wrote about the sword in teh first place, so why dont you stop being a fag and think about what you say first?

Oh, and by the way, fuck you.

You don't own the place so stop acting like it.
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
November 26 2006 08:26 GMT
#195
On November 26 2006 17:00 DarK]N[exuS wrote:
Ok several things:

Analyzing a street fight with physics is stupid, because anyone who has been in/seen a street fight knows that bat>knife, EASILY

Unless you're fucking 350 pounds of pure muscle and even then, if someone breaks your arm when you "block with it and then you have the knife in the other hand its over," you're going to fucking scream, drop the knife, and fall down because HE JUST BROKE YOUR ARM WITH A PIECE OF WOOD.

Show nested quote +

The person with the knife will ward off the blow with their hand. If they are stupid enough to use their knife hand to block, the knife will fall and it will become a grapple over control of the bat. If he uses his other arm to block, gg. if he dodges it, or he deflects it, no chance in hell for the bat guy. This quesion isnt even close.


.....lol.

If they are supposed to be of equal skill, then all you people saying that the knife guy would dodge and take openings are wrong again, because the bat guy is supposed to be that skilled too.



Its not about skill. I'll ask you again. If someone swings something big at you, you wont react?
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
[X]Ken_D
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
United States4653 Posts
November 26 2006 08:33 GMT
#196
This isn't a kung fu movie.

That guy with the knife would be so owned by the batter. The bat has incredible range and power.
[X]Domain - I just do the website. Nothing more.
QuietIdiot
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
7004 Posts
November 26 2006 08:34 GMT
#197
Someone had to do it -_-;
[image loading]

Poll: Bat or Knife
(Vote): Bat
(Vote): Knife
(Vote): Improbable.

alffla
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Hong Kong20321 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-11-26 08:37:06
November 26 2006 08:36 GMT
#198
On November 26 2006 17:34 QuietIdiot wrote:
Someone had to do it -_-;
[image loading]

Poll: Bat or Knife
(Vote): Bat
(Vote): Knife
(Vote): Improbable.



lol yayyy polls!! :D:DD fun fun..

wtf u hate savior??

yay bat winning 2-1 right now..
Graphicssavior[gm] : What is a “yawn” rape ;; Masumune - It was the year of the pig for those fucking defilers. Chill - A clinic you say? okum: SC without Korean yelling is like porn without sex. konamix: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MOMMY!
Ghin
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States2391 Posts
November 26 2006 08:42 GMT
#199
in double dragon i always own the guy with the bat with my knife.
Legalize drugs and murder.
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
November 26 2006 08:49 GMT
#200
Double dragon saves the day. Thread over.
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
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