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Any PUA discussion is banned from page 42 and onwards. |
On May 26 2014 03:14 Frumpysnoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 03:03 FiWiFaKi wrote:
I decided to watch these videos he posted, and honestly, everyone is calling him an idiot, an asshole, etc.
Truthfully, I don't see him that insane. His videos were over the top, and it almost felt like he was acting to behave like this, but at the end of the day, if I have to be the first to admit it, I don't think he's some hideous looking guy. He's well spoken, has class, probably pretty smart, looks alright, has money, and has been trying to get some girls to like him his whole life with no avail. I think there are many people in the world like him, feeling like they're one level up in every aspect of life on other guys, yet they can't get anyone, loneliness gets to everyone. I myself go through these cycles where I dislike people because I want to do my own thing, but after a few weeks/months, I go back to people because I get lonely, rinse and repeat.
It must feel awful really doing everything you can, and just really getting no results. I'm sure others have argued with you on the internet, and a majority of the people disagreed with you, but you were so sure you were right, that you just in your head called them idiots and walked away. I think that's what happened here, however there is no escape from this desire, and in the end you live your life in misery. People like to point out exactly how he was acting differently from the ideals, however nobody lives by the ideals. If any person on teamliquid made 20 personal videos, and we had a reason to want to pick apart that individual for how he behaves and for what he believes, I'm sure we'd be able to.
My Grade 10 year, I think most guys really wanted to get laid, and I would say that was a big goal of mine too, just the way the teenage brain thinks I guess. And if you go through highschool without sex if it's something you're really searching for, I'd imagine you'd feel like an inferior person, when others have the goal of having sex, and they manage it, but you don't. And then when you go to college/university, and you finish half your degree, you really start to worry when you still haven't been involved in any sexual activity. Everyone tells you that in university everyone is really horny, and everyone has sex with everyone, and it wouldn't be an illogical thought to think that if you can't win a girls heart in university, you will dearly struggle for the rest of your life.
At the end of the day, I am not defending what he did, his behaviour was very narcissistic, and well had many similarities to people I personally know who've struggled with such things. Hopefully this is something that is learned from, to try and structure society where these motivates for people to do such actions aren't so exemplified. I haven't done any research on the frequency of these incidents, and therefore I'm unsure whether this was just an isolated incident, or these are common throughout the western world. But he wasn't just sad. He hated seeing couples that were happy, holding hands, kissing etc. Everyone can relate to longing for someone to love them, yea, but to target people that are happy simply because you aren't is disgusting. He put such a huge emphasis on having a relationship because he didn't have a girl, but man if he did get a girl he'd realize quickly it's not all heavenly as he believes it is. Girls aren't all golden angels descending upon us to shower us in blowjobs, steak and endless love. This guy wanted endless, unquestionable love - he didn't want just a girlfriend. He wasn't looking to hook up with girls, he wanted to find a soul mate. And that shit just doesn't fall out of the sky. He has such a misconstrued idea as to what a relationship is, he believed it was more important than anything else in the world - even his and other's lives. I'm going to say this stems from issues a lot deeper than simply not having a girlfriend or interactions. I wonder how his relationship with his mom was.
If he had found a gf there would have been something else that he could not succeed in and that would have made him mad. Maybe this gf would have ended up dead then.
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On May 26 2014 03:03 FiWiFaKi wrote:
has been trying to get some girls to like him his whole life with no avail.
I'm pretty sure this is an example of "mental illness > can't get a girl", not "can't get a girl > mental illness". The fact that he himself couldn't recognize this puts him squarely into the "psychotic" section.
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On May 26 2014 03:14 Frumpysnoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 03:03 FiWiFaKi wrote:
I decided to watch these videos he posted, and honestly, everyone is calling him an idiot, an asshole, etc.
Truthfully, I don't see him that insane. His videos were over the top, and it almost felt like he was acting to behave like this, but at the end of the day, if I have to be the first to admit it, I don't think he's some hideous looking guy. He's well spoken, has class, probably pretty smart, looks alright, has money, and has been trying to get some girls to like him his whole life with no avail. I think there are many people in the world like him, feeling like they're one level up in every aspect of life on other guys, yet they can't get anyone, loneliness gets to everyone. I myself go through these cycles where I dislike people because I want to do my own thing, but after a few weeks/months, I go back to people because I get lonely, rinse and repeat.
It must feel awful really doing everything you can, and just really getting no results. I'm sure others have argued with you on the internet, and a majority of the people disagreed with you, but you were so sure you were right, that you just in your head called them idiots and walked away. I think that's what happened here, however there is no escape from this desire, and in the end you live your life in misery. People like to point out exactly how he was acting differently from the ideals, however nobody lives by the ideals. If any person on teamliquid made 20 personal videos, and we had a reason to want to pick apart that individual for how he behaves and for what he believes, I'm sure we'd be able to.
My Grade 10 year, I think most guys really wanted to get laid, and I would say that was a big goal of mine too, just the way the teenage brain thinks I guess. And if you go through highschool without sex if it's something you're really searching for, I'd imagine you'd feel like an inferior person, when others have the goal of having sex, and they manage it, but you don't. And then when you go to college/university, and you finish half your degree, you really start to worry when you still haven't been involved in any sexual activity. Everyone tells you that in university everyone is really horny, and everyone has sex with everyone, and it wouldn't be an illogical thought to think that if you can't win a girls heart in university, you will dearly struggle for the rest of your life.
At the end of the day, I am not defending what he did, his behaviour was very narcissistic, and well had many similarities to people I personally know who've struggled with such things. Hopefully this is something that is learned from, to try and structure society where these motivates for people to do such actions aren't so exemplified. I haven't done any research on the frequency of these incidents, and therefore I'm unsure whether this was just an isolated incident, or these are common throughout the western world. But he wasn't just sad. He hated seeing couples that were happy, holding hands, kissing etc. Everyone can relate to longing for someone to love them, yea, but to target people that are happy simply because you aren't is disgusting. He put such a huge emphasis on having a relationship because he didn't have a girl, but man if he did get a girl he'd realize quickly it's not all heavenly as he believes it is. Girls aren't all golden angels descending upon us to shower us in blowjobs, steak and endless love. This guy wanted endless, unquestionable love - he didn't want just a girlfriend. He wasn't looking to hook up with girls, he wanted to find a soul mate. And that shit just doesn't fall out of the sky. He has such a misconstrued idea as to what a relationship is, he believed it was more important than anything else in the world - even his and other's lives. I'm going to say this stems from issues a lot deeper than simply not having a girlfriend or interactions. I wonder how his relationship with his mom was.
Well I agree with you that a relationship to most people isn't as heavenly as it may seem, but we always think of it as something better than it really is before we have one, don't we?
How would you know how shitty a relationship is before you've had one? In my opinion, a good relationship is one of the better things in life, and you really have no way to know [how good or how bad it is] before you experience it. Don't tell me you've never been jealous of some friend who told you a sex story or just had sex before you did. I think it's natural for a guys mind to lust that.
He might've wanted endless love, but odds are, if he found a relationship, he would've understood it better, he'd see how his body responded to this relationship, he could put himself into the shoes of those who have a relationship, instead of alienating them to animals that propagate this cruel world. I don't know, but if you face endless rejection, and all your efforts fail, you have no sense of belonging, and that goes for anything you do in life.
His perception of what a relationship is, was skewed, and while I would agree that his mind tends to some mental illness, as well as a more radical belief system (not as uncommon as you'd think, just most people don't get pushed to the edge like him) although I would attribute the majority of the motivate to do this being due to his upbringing, and just being unable to fulfill the biggest goal of his life when giving his fullest effort.
On May 26 2014 03:17 LilClinkin wrote:
Currently skimming as quickly as I can through this guy's manifesto...
From what I can gather, this sort of thing occurs as the perfect storm of factors...an individual with a poor temperament and extremely narcissistic personality is born into a privileged family (which breaks up at young age) whose parents aren't ever really available to him on an emotional level, combined with a bad teenage experience at school of being perpetually bullied.
I went through similar experiences to him during my 3rd-8th years at school; being the shortest, weakest kid, getting bullied, being shy, having difficulty reconciling my emotions towards females due to poor self-esteem, using video-games as a coping mechanism etc. I can empathise with him...to a certain point.
Exactly what I see it is as well. Events like these should be used as learning mechanisms when possible, discussing how "mentally fucked up" a dead person is, doesn't change much going into the present and the future.
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Northern Ireland25558 Posts
By the sounds of it he looked for advice all over the place but it doesn't seem like he ever grasped on and changed his behaviour or outlook and that cycle perpetuated until this.
I'm no big adherent or follower of it, but the better side off the PUA community, they would actually trample out this sort of entitlement mindset (or try).
It's been pissing me off all day reading articles that repeat that he frequented such sites without doing any follow up or actual Godamn research and playing cod psychologist. Obviously in the big scheme of things that matters not a jot, but lazy fucking 'journalism' across the board, argh.
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On May 26 2014 03:24 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 03:14 Frumpysnoo wrote:On May 26 2014 03:03 FiWiFaKi wrote:
I decided to watch these videos he posted, and honestly, everyone is calling him an idiot, an asshole, etc.
Truthfully, I don't see him that insane. His videos were over the top, and it almost felt like he was acting to behave like this, but at the end of the day, if I have to be the first to admit it, I don't think he's some hideous looking guy. He's well spoken, has class, probably pretty smart, looks alright, has money, and has been trying to get some girls to like him his whole life with no avail. I think there are many people in the world like him, feeling like they're one level up in every aspect of life on other guys, yet they can't get anyone, loneliness gets to everyone. I myself go through these cycles where I dislike people because I want to do my own thing, but after a few weeks/months, I go back to people because I get lonely, rinse and repeat.
It must feel awful really doing everything you can, and just really getting no results. I'm sure others have argued with you on the internet, and a majority of the people disagreed with you, but you were so sure you were right, that you just in your head called them idiots and walked away. I think that's what happened here, however there is no escape from this desire, and in the end you live your life in misery. People like to point out exactly how he was acting differently from the ideals, however nobody lives by the ideals. If any person on teamliquid made 20 personal videos, and we had a reason to want to pick apart that individual for how he behaves and for what he believes, I'm sure we'd be able to.
My Grade 10 year, I think most guys really wanted to get laid, and I would say that was a big goal of mine too, just the way the teenage brain thinks I guess. And if you go through highschool without sex if it's something you're really searching for, I'd imagine you'd feel like an inferior person, when others have the goal of having sex, and they manage it, but you don't. And then when you go to college/university, and you finish half your degree, you really start to worry when you still haven't been involved in any sexual activity. Everyone tells you that in university everyone is really horny, and everyone has sex with everyone, and it wouldn't be an illogical thought to think that if you can't win a girls heart in university, you will dearly struggle for the rest of your life.
At the end of the day, I am not defending what he did, his behaviour was very narcissistic, and well had many similarities to people I personally know who've struggled with such things. Hopefully this is something that is learned from, to try and structure society where these motivates for people to do such actions aren't so exemplified. I haven't done any research on the frequency of these incidents, and therefore I'm unsure whether this was just an isolated incident, or these are common throughout the western world. But he wasn't just sad. He hated seeing couples that were happy, holding hands, kissing etc. Everyone can relate to longing for someone to love them, yea, but to target people that are happy simply because you aren't is disgusting. He put such a huge emphasis on having a relationship because he didn't have a girl, but man if he did get a girl he'd realize quickly it's not all heavenly as he believes it is. Girls aren't all golden angels descending upon us to shower us in blowjobs, steak and endless love. This guy wanted endless, unquestionable love - he didn't want just a girlfriend. He wasn't looking to hook up with girls, he wanted to find a soul mate. And that shit just doesn't fall out of the sky. He has such a misconstrued idea as to what a relationship is, he believed it was more important than anything else in the world - even his and other's lives. I'm going to say this stems from issues a lot deeper than simply not having a girlfriend or interactions. I wonder how his relationship with his mom was. If he had found a gf there would have been something else that he could not succeed in and that would have made him mad. Maybe this gf would have ended up dead then.
I don't think there's enough evidence to make a statement like that.
If he found a girlfriend a week before he did the mass murder, then he's probably too far gone, and his hatred towards humanity could have easily been displayed throughout other avenues.
However if he found a girlfriend and was more accepted by girls at the age of 16-18, he might've been completely different. The main things that it comes down to, and the information we don't have, is exactly how he acted around girls. Maybe he just tried to brag, be extremely narcissistic, and generally unpleasant to be around, and in that case, it's more of a mental issue and behaviour disorder. Just as easily it could have been unfair treatment though... Being discriminated for being half-Asian, for being small and weak, and other factors may not know which were present.
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On May 26 2014 03:26 HeatEXTEND wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 03:03 FiWiFaKi wrote:
has been trying to get some girls to like him his whole life with no avail. I'm pretty sure this is an example of "mental illness > can't get a girl", not "can't get a girl > mental illness". The fact that he himself couldn't recognize this puts him squarely into the "psychotic" section.
It's usually not as black and white as you make it out to be with those two options.
And "mental illness" and "radical belief & morals" are not interchangeable phrases. You might be right, but I would say it's more of a feedback loop between: upbringing(bullying, divorce, etc), behavioural disorders, beliefs, inability to get love.
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On May 26 2014 03:27 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 03:14 Frumpysnoo wrote:On May 26 2014 03:03 FiWiFaKi wrote:
I decided to watch these videos he posted, and honestly, everyone is calling him an idiot, an asshole, etc.
Truthfully, I don't see him that insane. His videos were over the top, and it almost felt like he was acting to behave like this, but at the end of the day, if I have to be the first to admit it, I don't think he's some hideous looking guy. He's well spoken, has class, probably pretty smart, looks alright, has money, and has been trying to get some girls to like him his whole life with no avail. I think there are many people in the world like him, feeling like they're one level up in every aspect of life on other guys, yet they can't get anyone, loneliness gets to everyone. I myself go through these cycles where I dislike people because I want to do my own thing, but after a few weeks/months, I go back to people because I get lonely, rinse and repeat.
It must feel awful really doing everything you can, and just really getting no results. I'm sure others have argued with you on the internet, and a majority of the people disagreed with you, but you were so sure you were right, that you just in your head called them idiots and walked away. I think that's what happened here, however there is no escape from this desire, and in the end you live your life in misery. People like to point out exactly how he was acting differently from the ideals, however nobody lives by the ideals. If any person on teamliquid made 20 personal videos, and we had a reason to want to pick apart that individual for how he behaves and for what he believes, I'm sure we'd be able to.
My Grade 10 year, I think most guys really wanted to get laid, and I would say that was a big goal of mine too, just the way the teenage brain thinks I guess. And if you go through highschool without sex if it's something you're really searching for, I'd imagine you'd feel like an inferior person, when others have the goal of having sex, and they manage it, but you don't. And then when you go to college/university, and you finish half your degree, you really start to worry when you still haven't been involved in any sexual activity. Everyone tells you that in university everyone is really horny, and everyone has sex with everyone, and it wouldn't be an illogical thought to think that if you can't win a girls heart in university, you will dearly struggle for the rest of your life.
At the end of the day, I am not defending what he did, his behaviour was very narcissistic, and well had many similarities to people I personally know who've struggled with such things. Hopefully this is something that is learned from, to try and structure society where these motivates for people to do such actions aren't so exemplified. I haven't done any research on the frequency of these incidents, and therefore I'm unsure whether this was just an isolated incident, or these are common throughout the western world. But he wasn't just sad. He hated seeing couples that were happy, holding hands, kissing etc. Everyone can relate to longing for someone to love them, yea, but to target people that are happy simply because you aren't is disgusting. He put such a huge emphasis on having a relationship because he didn't have a girl, but man if he did get a girl he'd realize quickly it's not all heavenly as he believes it is. Girls aren't all golden angels descending upon us to shower us in blowjobs, steak and endless love. This guy wanted endless, unquestionable love - he didn't want just a girlfriend. He wasn't looking to hook up with girls, he wanted to find a soul mate. And that shit just doesn't fall out of the sky. He has such a misconstrued idea as to what a relationship is, he believed it was more important than anything else in the world - even his and other's lives. I'm going to say this stems from issues a lot deeper than simply not having a girlfriend or interactions. I wonder how his relationship with his mom was. Well I agree with you that a relationship to most people isn't as heavenly as it may seem, but we always think of it as something better than it really is before we have one, don't we? How would you know how shitty a relationship is before you've had one? In my opinion, a good relationship is one of the better things in life, and you really have no way to know [how good or how bad it is] before you experience it. Don't tell me you've never been jealous of some friend who told you a sex story or just had sex before you did. I think it's natural for a guys mind to lust that. He might've wanted endless love, but odds are, if he found a relationship, he would've understood it better, he'd see how his body responded to this relationship, he could put himself into the shoes of those who have a relationship, instead of alienating them to animals that propagate this cruel world. I don't know, but if you face endless rejection, and all your efforts fail, you have no sense of belonging, and that goes for anything you do in life. His perception of what a relationship is, was skewed, and while I would agree that his mind tends to some mental illness, as well as a more radical belief system (not as uncommon as you'd think, just most people don't get pushed to the edge like him) although I would attribute the majority of the motivate to do this being due to his upbringing, and just being unable to fulfill the biggest goal of his life when giving his fullest effort.
This is all hindsight, of course.
It's hard building a great relationship with someone, but if/when you can I agree that it is indeed one of the greater things in life. But to long for such an intense relationship when he's never been intimate with someone in the first place is ridiculous. He glorified relationships so much simply because he didn't understand them. He didn't think of the work or commitment or sacrifices that go into building relationships - he only sought the unconditional love. On top of all this, he believed girls were simply to be obtained. Maybe if he had one mediocre relationship he would have understood more. I agree with you when you say a girlfriend this year or last wouldn't have been able to affect him for the better, but rather a girl years and years ago while he was developing as a teenager. And no, I've never personally been jealous from a sex story; although this is subjective. I lost my virginity at a very young age.
Obviously understanding him to any degree is hard without first knowing his upbringing and past. I sure as hell can't, I'm no clinical psychologist.
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I think a lot of modern society's problems could be to blame here.
Our approach to sex is hypocritical to the extreme. We glorify it and demonize it, promote it and punish it, romanticize it and sleaze it. Sex is probably the best way to drive a person crazy. We need to fully embrace sexuality in our culture, and demand the puritans and self-virtuous keep their Victorian ideals to themselves. If this kid wanted some harmless sex, he should've gotten it. His ideas of romance would be more adapted and more realistic, if he had some intimate knowledge of women. We shouldn't be afraid to simply allow people to explore that aspect of humanity without feeling like they have to earn it through some trial of Social Darwinism. I don't just mean legalizing prostitution (although we certainly should), but getting rid of the social implication that everyone needs to find "that someone".
Like, fuck Valentine's Day, for instance. Get rid of the Hallmark-card-romance that's shoved down our throats, recognize that reality is a lot more complicated to most people, and that there's nothing wrong with not being "in love" with someone.
We idolize guns and violence. We idolize individualism, but not society.
This kid was in a populated community, and he was screaming for help. Technically, he received a bit of help, but it wasn't enough. Yeah, we can call him a conceited self-absorbed lunatic, and that's true to a degree. But we're manufacturing a lot of self-absorbed lunatics in this country, and we've no shortage of sophisticated weaponry for them to use. Something is terribly wrong with all this.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On May 26 2014 04:18 Leporello wrote:
I think a lot of modern society's problems could be to blame here.
Our approach to sex is hypocritical to the extreme. We glorify it and demonize it, promote it and punish it, romanticize it and sleaze it. Sex is probably the best way to drive a person crazy. We need to fully embrace sexuality in our culture, and demand the puritans and self-virtuous keep their Victorian ideals to themselves. If this kid wanted some harmless sex, he should've gotten it. His ideas of romance would be more adapted and more realistic, if he had some intimate knowledge of women. We shouldn't be afraid to simply allow people to explore that aspect of humanity without feeling like they have to earn it through some trial of Social Darwinism. I don't just mean legalizing prostitution (although we certainly should), but getting rid of the social implication that everyone needs to find "that someone". Like, fuck Valentine's Day, for instance. Get rid of the Hallmark-romance that's shoved down our throats, and people wouldn't feel insecure about not being swept-away in-love.
We idolize guns and violence. We idolize individualism, but not society.
This kid was in a populated community, and he was screaming for help. Technically, he received a bit of help, but it wasn't enough. Yeah, we can call him a conceited self-absorbed lunatic, and that's true to a degree. But we're manufacturing a lot of self-absorbed lunatics in this country, and we've no shortage of sophisticated weaponry for them to use. Something is terribly wrong with all this.
@bolded you make it sound like he should just be given something lol. Asides from prostitution, I don't think there are other avenues for that. I do believe that society played a very small role with the focus on relationships and such but removing things like Valentine's Day wouldn't change anything. He had an inherently wrong idea thinking that things should be given to him just because of who he is. That idea had to be changed though a society with less emphasis on sex (movies and shows have quite a bit here) would've definitely helped out and would still help in the long run.
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If anyone is to blame it is our society. No wonder people become insane when our society tells you the only way you will ever be a "worthy" person is when you put your penis in a vag.
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A friend just pointed this out on Facebook, and I think it's an excellent point.
"While that's all true and he probably did have some kind of personality disorder, I'm troubled that every time this occurs, people automatically jump to say that he must've been crazy. By describing him as crazy, they are relieving him of some level of responsibility for his actions and stigmatizing mental illness. People are so scared of the idea that more or less sane people can do incredibly evil and ugly things when there are cultural pathologies at work.
"Again, not saying he wasn't disturbed, because he clearly was. I just wish the focus wasn't so much on his mental health and was more on the putrid ideologies of the communities he frequented (PUA, "incel," anti-feminism.) I think people who jump to discuss his mental health first and foremost are inadvertently excusing him somewhat."
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On May 26 2014 04:32 Calanthe wrote:
A friend just pointed this out on Facebook, and I think it's an excellent point.
"While that's all true and he probably did have some kind of personality disorder, I'm troubled that every time this occurs, people automatically jump to say that he must've been crazy. By describing him as crazy, they are relieving him of some level of responsibility for his actions and stigmatizing mental illness. People are so scared of the idea that more or less sane people can do incredibly evil and ugly things when there are cultural pathologies at work.
"Again, not saying he wasn't disturbed, because he clearly was. I just wish the focus wasn't so much on his mental health and was more on the putrid ideologies of the communities he frequented (PUA, "incel," anti-feminism.) I think people who jump to discuss his mental health first and foremost are inadvertently excusing him somewhat."
I think he's a product of an incredible toxic environment, a 'perfect storm' as one poster mentioned.
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On May 26 2014 04:31 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 04:18 Leporello wrote:
I think a lot of modern society's problems could be to blame here.
Our approach to sex is hypocritical to the extreme. We glorify it and demonize it, promote it and punish it, romanticize it and sleaze it. Sex is probably the best way to drive a person crazy. We need to fully embrace sexuality in our culture, and demand the puritans and self-virtuous keep their Victorian ideals to themselves. If this kid wanted some harmless sex, he should've gotten it. His ideas of romance would be more adapted and more realistic, if he had some intimate knowledge of women. We shouldn't be afraid to simply allow people to explore that aspect of humanity without feeling like they have to earn it through some trial of Social Darwinism. I don't just mean legalizing prostitution (although we certainly should), but getting rid of the social implication that everyone needs to find "that someone". Like, fuck Valentine's Day, for instance. Get rid of the Hallmark-romance that's shoved down our throats, and people wouldn't feel insecure about not being swept-away in-love.
We idolize guns and violence. We idolize individualism, but not society.
This kid was in a populated community, and he was screaming for help. Technically, he received a bit of help, but it wasn't enough. Yeah, we can call him a conceited self-absorbed lunatic, and that's true to a degree. But we're manufacturing a lot of self-absorbed lunatics in this country, and we've no shortage of sophisticated weaponry for them to use. Something is terribly wrong with all this.
@bolded you make it sound like he should just be given something lol. Asides from prostitution, I don't think there are other avenues for that. I do believe that society played a very small role with the focus on relationships and such but removing things like Valentine's Day wouldn't change anything. He had an inherently wrong idea thinking that things should be given to him just because of who he is. That idea had to be changed though a society with less emphasis on sex (movies and shows have quite a bit here) would've definitely helped out and would still help in the long run.
I just think we have a cultural problem when it comes to sex that can be degrading to people's mental health.
He wanted a fairy-tale romance to just happen to him like it happens to people in the movies.
I think we just need to culturally take some of the romance out of sex, and not place romance on such a pedestal, that people don't feel that romance is the end-all-be-all, like you're less of a man if you don't have the one woman in your life.
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On May 26 2014 04:32 Calanthe wrote:
A friend just pointed this out on Facebook, and I think it's an excellent point.
"While that's all true and he probably did have some kind of personality disorder, I'm troubled that every time this occurs, people automatically jump to say that he must've been crazy. By describing him as crazy, they are relieving him of some level of responsibility for his actions and stigmatizing mental illness. People are so scared of the idea that more or less sane people can do incredibly evil and ugly things when there are cultural pathologies at work.
"Again, not saying he wasn't disturbed, because he clearly was. I just wish the focus wasn't so much on his mental health and was more on the putrid ideologies of the communities he frequented (PUA, "incel," anti-feminism.) I think people who jump to discuss his mental health first and foremost are inadvertently excusing him somewhat."
Yeah, let's take the convenient blame away from insanity and conveniently blame his problems on things we don't like. I mean, I agree that PUA and a lot of anti-feminism could contribute, but come on. This person is an individual, and that's just pushing an agenda. Plus, "incel" is literally involuntary celibacy which is kind of applicable for this guy...
Of course he was mentally not right. Probably had some sort of personality disorder, and his unfortunate life circumstances only exacerbated that. He seriously obsessed over sex and virginity, and never had an experience that could make him change his ways because he himself prevented it without knowing. You're a woman, and this is going to sound harsh, but women probably can't understand this as well as men, since if a woman wants sex it is much easier for her to get it through legal means.
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On May 26 2014 04:36 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 04:31 BigFan wrote:On May 26 2014 04:18 Leporello wrote:
I think a lot of modern society's problems could be to blame here.
Our approach to sex is hypocritical to the extreme. We glorify it and demonize it, promote it and punish it, romanticize it and sleaze it. Sex is probably the best way to drive a person crazy. We need to fully embrace sexuality in our culture, and demand the puritans and self-virtuous keep their Victorian ideals to themselves. If this kid wanted some harmless sex, he should've gotten it. His ideas of romance would be more adapted and more realistic, if he had some intimate knowledge of women. We shouldn't be afraid to simply allow people to explore that aspect of humanity without feeling like they have to earn it through some trial of Social Darwinism. I don't just mean legalizing prostitution (although we certainly should), but getting rid of the social implication that everyone needs to find "that someone". Like, fuck Valentine's Day, for instance. Get rid of the Hallmark-romance that's shoved down our throats, and people wouldn't feel insecure about not being swept-away in-love.
We idolize guns and violence. We idolize individualism, but not society.
This kid was in a populated community, and he was screaming for help. Technically, he received a bit of help, but it wasn't enough. Yeah, we can call him a conceited self-absorbed lunatic, and that's true to a degree. But we're manufacturing a lot of self-absorbed lunatics in this country, and we've no shortage of sophisticated weaponry for them to use. Something is terribly wrong with all this.
@bolded you make it sound like he should just be given something lol. Asides from prostitution, I don't think there are other avenues for that. I do believe that society played a very small role with the focus on relationships and such but removing things like Valentine's Day wouldn't change anything. He had an inherently wrong idea thinking that things should be given to him just because of who he is. That idea had to be changed though a society with less emphasis on sex (movies and shows have quite a bit here) would've definitely helped out and would still help in the long run. I just think we have a cultural problem when it comes to sex that can be degrading to people's mental health. He wanted a fairy-tale romance to just happen to him like it happens to people in the movies. I think we just need to culturally take some of the romance out of sex, and not place romance on such a pedestal, that people don't feel that romance is the end-all-be-all, like you're less of a man if you don't have the one woman in your life.
Should we change society to prevent a few from becoming psychopaths, or do we rather try and finds these psychopaths and lock them up is the better question. We can't appease to every single person in society. Somewhere you must draw a line (and it's always dynamically changing with society and technology), and the factors that determine where you'd draw this line could be written in about a 10 volume set of books regarding the topic.
You do realize that for the foreseeable future we will always try to promote sex and being a must thing in life. You know why? Because every generations of genes that lives on must have sex and usually a family to live on. People who outcry about sex die, and they don't have family blood to keep their worldviews going.
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Northern Ireland25558 Posts
PUA is being dragged in where there is no need to drag it in. The feminist postings have centred around male 'entitlement', where in PUA circles is it advocated that you're entitled to anything without putting in the hard graft.
By all means criticise it for the many valid reasons that exist, but that's not one of them.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On May 26 2014 04:53 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 04:36 Leporello wrote:On May 26 2014 04:31 BigFan wrote:On May 26 2014 04:18 Leporello wrote:
I think a lot of modern society's problems could be to blame here.
Our approach to sex is hypocritical to the extreme. We glorify it and demonize it, promote it and punish it, romanticize it and sleaze it. Sex is probably the best way to drive a person crazy. We need to fully embrace sexuality in our culture, and demand the puritans and self-virtuous keep their Victorian ideals to themselves. If this kid wanted some harmless sex, he should've gotten it. His ideas of romance would be more adapted and more realistic, if he had some intimate knowledge of women. We shouldn't be afraid to simply allow people to explore that aspect of humanity without feeling like they have to earn it through some trial of Social Darwinism. I don't just mean legalizing prostitution (although we certainly should), but getting rid of the social implication that everyone needs to find "that someone". Like, fuck Valentine's Day, for instance. Get rid of the Hallmark-romance that's shoved down our throats, and people wouldn't feel insecure about not being swept-away in-love.
We idolize guns and violence. We idolize individualism, but not society.
This kid was in a populated community, and he was screaming for help. Technically, he received a bit of help, but it wasn't enough. Yeah, we can call him a conceited self-absorbed lunatic, and that's true to a degree. But we're manufacturing a lot of self-absorbed lunatics in this country, and we've no shortage of sophisticated weaponry for them to use. Something is terribly wrong with all this.
@bolded you make it sound like he should just be given something lol. Asides from prostitution, I don't think there are other avenues for that. I do believe that society played a very small role with the focus on relationships and such but removing things like Valentine's Day wouldn't change anything. He had an inherently wrong idea thinking that things should be given to him just because of who he is. That idea had to be changed though a society with less emphasis on sex (movies and shows have quite a bit here) would've definitely helped out and would still help in the long run. I just think we have a cultural problem when it comes to sex that can be degrading to people's mental health. He wanted a fairy-tale romance to just happen to him like it happens to people in the movies. I think we just need to culturally take some of the romance out of sex, and not place romance on such a pedestal, that people don't feel that romance is the end-all-be-all, like you're less of a man if you don't have the one woman in your life. Should we change society to prevent a few from becoming psychopaths, or do we rather try and finds these psychopaths and lock them up is the better question. We can't appease to every single person in society. Somewhere you must draw a line (and it's always dynamically changing with society and technology), and the factors that determine where you'd draw this line could be written in about a 10 volume set of books regarding the topic. You do realize that for the foreseeable future we will always try to promote sex and being a must thing in life. You know why? Because every generations of genes that lives on must have sex and usually a family to live on. People who outcry about sex die, and they don't have family blood to keep their worldviews going.
From what I understood from his point, it was that everything seems to be centered on the idea of sex and how important it is. Would anyone dispute its importance? no, not really but do things like shows, movies etc... have to have a lot of sexual content. Well, that differs from person to person but I would say cutting down on those shouldn't really hurt.
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On May 26 2014 02:30 MoonfireSpam wrote:
I'm more amazed that people actually bother to read the shit people like this dude write.
It gives insight into the mind of others. When I read this, I can remove my hate for him and read it with an open mind. His manifesto tells a story about him since he was born. It's a psychologist's dream to have this much readily available information such as this. While, I'm only 30 pages through and up to his middle school, it shows each step that went wrong with his life.
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On May 26 2014 05:01 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 04:53 FiWiFaKi wrote:On May 26 2014 04:36 Leporello wrote:On May 26 2014 04:31 BigFan wrote:On May 26 2014 04:18 Leporello wrote:
I think a lot of modern society's problems could be to blame here.
Our approach to sex is hypocritical to the extreme. We glorify it and demonize it, promote it and punish it, romanticize it and sleaze it. Sex is probably the best way to drive a person crazy. We need to fully embrace sexuality in our culture, and demand the puritans and self-virtuous keep their Victorian ideals to themselves. If this kid wanted some harmless sex, he should've gotten it. His ideas of romance would be more adapted and more realistic, if he had some intimate knowledge of women. We shouldn't be afraid to simply allow people to explore that aspect of humanity without feeling like they have to earn it through some trial of Social Darwinism. I don't just mean legalizing prostitution (although we certainly should), but getting rid of the social implication that everyone needs to find "that someone". Like, fuck Valentine's Day, for instance. Get rid of the Hallmark-romance that's shoved down our throats, and people wouldn't feel insecure about not being swept-away in-love.
We idolize guns and violence. We idolize individualism, but not society.
This kid was in a populated community, and he was screaming for help. Technically, he received a bit of help, but it wasn't enough. Yeah, we can call him a conceited self-absorbed lunatic, and that's true to a degree. But we're manufacturing a lot of self-absorbed lunatics in this country, and we've no shortage of sophisticated weaponry for them to use. Something is terribly wrong with all this.
@bolded you make it sound like he should just be given something lol. Asides from prostitution, I don't think there are other avenues for that. I do believe that society played a very small role with the focus on relationships and such but removing things like Valentine's Day wouldn't change anything. He had an inherently wrong idea thinking that things should be given to him just because of who he is. That idea had to be changed though a society with less emphasis on sex (movies and shows have quite a bit here) would've definitely helped out and would still help in the long run. I just think we have a cultural problem when it comes to sex that can be degrading to people's mental health. He wanted a fairy-tale romance to just happen to him like it happens to people in the movies. I think we just need to culturally take some of the romance out of sex, and not place romance on such a pedestal, that people don't feel that romance is the end-all-be-all, like you're less of a man if you don't have the one woman in your life. Should we change society to prevent a few from becoming psychopaths, or do we rather try and finds these psychopaths and lock them up is the better question. We can't appease to every single person in society. Somewhere you must draw a line (and it's always dynamically changing with society and technology), and the factors that determine where you'd draw this line could be written in about a 10 volume set of books regarding the topic. You do realize that for the foreseeable future we will always try to promote sex and being a must thing in life. You know why? Because every generations of genes that lives on must have sex and usually a family to live on. People who outcry about sex die, and they don't have family blood to keep their worldviews going. From what I understood from his point, it was that everything seems to be centered on the idea of sex and how important it is. Would anyone dispute its importance? no, not really but do things like shows, movies etc... have to have a lot of sexual content. Well, that differs from person to person but I would say cutting down on those shouldn't really hurt.
But I want to see romantic sexual content in movies and TV shows.
You try and change that, and I will rather watch a different TV show. Capitalism wont allow it. So then there are really only two alternatives:
1) Government involvement in holidays, passing more PDA (public display of affection) laws, bans for extremely romantic and sexual content on TV. Government involvement in general sexual activity, and reduction of sexual freedom.
2) A cultural movement to a less sex oriented culture and acceptance towards many different worldviews.
Now we can see how option #1 is very impractical, government being involved in family holidays doesn't really sit right with people. Making these bans in today's society in unrealistic, and people already feel that nudity laws, sex laws, and all else is very strict. Option two is the multicultural, and more acceptance to beliefs and values movement, which is happening today, but I don't see it ever going to such an extreme level as this. And there is nothing to accelerate this movement to a more sex free world, if anything, rather the opposite due to a decline of religion in the western world, which are the main opponents to sexual freedom.
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On May 26 2014 04:53 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 04:36 Leporello wrote:On May 26 2014 04:31 BigFan wrote:On May 26 2014 04:18 Leporello wrote:
I think a lot of modern society's problems could be to blame here.
Our approach to sex is hypocritical to the extreme. We glorify it and demonize it, promote it and punish it, romanticize it and sleaze it. Sex is probably the best way to drive a person crazy. We need to fully embrace sexuality in our culture, and demand the puritans and self-virtuous keep their Victorian ideals to themselves. If this kid wanted some harmless sex, he should've gotten it. His ideas of romance would be more adapted and more realistic, if he had some intimate knowledge of women. We shouldn't be afraid to simply allow people to explore that aspect of humanity without feeling like they have to earn it through some trial of Social Darwinism. I don't just mean legalizing prostitution (although we certainly should), but getting rid of the social implication that everyone needs to find "that someone". Like, fuck Valentine's Day, for instance. Get rid of the Hallmark-romance that's shoved down our throats, and people wouldn't feel insecure about not being swept-away in-love.
We idolize guns and violence. We idolize individualism, but not society.
This kid was in a populated community, and he was screaming for help. Technically, he received a bit of help, but it wasn't enough. Yeah, we can call him a conceited self-absorbed lunatic, and that's true to a degree. But we're manufacturing a lot of self-absorbed lunatics in this country, and we've no shortage of sophisticated weaponry for them to use. Something is terribly wrong with all this.
@bolded you make it sound like he should just be given something lol. Asides from prostitution, I don't think there are other avenues for that. I do believe that society played a very small role with the focus on relationships and such but removing things like Valentine's Day wouldn't change anything. He had an inherently wrong idea thinking that things should be given to him just because of who he is. That idea had to be changed though a society with less emphasis on sex (movies and shows have quite a bit here) would've definitely helped out and would still help in the long run. I just think we have a cultural problem when it comes to sex that can be degrading to people's mental health. He wanted a fairy-tale romance to just happen to him like it happens to people in the movies. I think we just need to culturally take some of the romance out of sex, and not place romance on such a pedestal, that people don't feel that romance is the end-all-be-all, like you're less of a man if you don't have the one woman in your life. Should we change society to prevent a few from becoming psychopaths, or do we rather try and finds these psychopaths and lock them up is the better question. We can't appease to every single person in society. Somewhere you must draw a line (and it's always dynamically changing with society and technology), and the factors that determine where you'd draw this line could be written in about a 10 volume set of books regarding the topic. You do realize that for the foreseeable future we will always try to promote sex and being a must thing in life. You know why? Because every generations of genes that lives on must have sex and usually a family to live on. People who outcry about sex die, and they don't have family blood to keep their worldviews going.
Sex and romance are two different things. I'm not sure who you're responding to with that second paragraph. Nothing wrong with promoting sex -- as I said in my previous post, sex should be more open, less shameful, prostitution legal and without social ridicule, etc.. But we're so far from that point because of all these rather Victorian-leftover ideals that are simply everywhere in our culture -- that monogamy is for proper humans and is the most life-fulfilling thing that exists. We promote romance at the cost of sex, really, because sex on its own is seen as "perverted" next to romance. I think Valentine's Day is awful, but I'd be fine with Human Sexuality Day. Sex is totally worth celebrating.
Every good hero has his soul mate in our culture, is the problem. And every person is a hero in their own eyes. This kid failed to be the hero he thought himself being, but not able to blame himself (even though there shouldn't be any blame or shame necessary) he blamed anything and everything else.
I just hope culture moves further away from classical romance, is my only real point here. I don't think romance is bullshit or anything, but it certainly isn't something that everyone should expect and isn't any sort of criteria for what makes a good man. But the concept of romance was obviously very indoctrinated into this kid, to devastating consequences.
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