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On April 21 2014 17:03 marigoldran wrote:
Please take note at how I said "almost everyone."
My point is that the alternative is worse. Sometimes it's simply better to embrace the chaos.
You realize also that when airplanes hit a water landing, people put on their life jackets but are not supposed to inflate them because the added flotation makes it impossible to swim or dive if water is in the cabin? Would have been the exact same here, it's almost impossible to dive into the water with jackets on unless you are an expert swimmer when the ship is capsizing.
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R.i.p to the poor souls that havn' t made it. Those heroism stories are inspiring. Reading about someone giving their OWN life jacket to somebody else is really a big deal. Who knows what really went on there with the captain, from the OP its difficult to say.
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On April 21 2014 14:53 iTzSnypah wrote:
I blame the boat. All inputs should be regulated by a computer (like modern fighter jets), making it impossible for tragedies like this to happen.
Disagree. The captain and his crew lacked training or experience or something. They are to blame for this, not the ship. The crew has to be able to handle the damn ship lol, why else would they be there otherwise.
Inputs are regulated by computer in modern fighter jets so that the jets can be built instable and be not impossible to fly. If the jets are made to be instable, then they're more agile. If you put a computer between the pilot and the actual aircraft, the computer can do all the very minute corrections necessary so a highly unstable aircraft can be flown anyway without putting too much strain on the pilot. You can still fly a fly-by-wire aircraft into a mountain or be a bad pilot.
I believe this ferry hit a rock through poor navigation or poor seamanship. The way the emergency procedures were then handled were also bad, apparently. So it's really the crews fault, as far as I know.
E: Unforunate for the victims though. I just think that accidents like these should serve to raise a standard on crew training.
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On April 21 2014 15:48 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 15:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 21 2014 13:23 riyanme wrote:On April 21 2014 13:18 icystorage wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/d6attoo.jpg) arent the white capsules in the right side of the pic supposed to be lifeboats? yes, apparently used as decorations sadly, a naval sailor also died on Saturday on a boat on the way out to help in the search Is there confirmation that those were not life boats but just decorations or likely to give a false sense of security Titanic style? There were lifeboats, apparently 46 and all functional, however apparently the ship tilted too quickly and passengers didn't have time to get to them. Show nested quote +Bridge Absence
Captain Lee, 69, wasn’t on the bridge at the time of the sinking and he had assigned the third navigation officer to steer the vessel, Park Jae Uck, a prosecutor based in Gwangju, told reporters in Mokpo. “He may have returned to the wheelhouse as the ferry began tilting,” he said.
Investigators are probing whether the ferry turned too quickly or abnormally. They declined to say what announcements were made as the ferry sank, or whether passengers were told to stay in their cabins.
The 46 lifeboats on board the ferry had been checked on Feb. 10, according to Oh, who hurt his back during his escape. He was dressed in a white hospital gown and had an IV drip attached to his arm.
Functional Lifeboats
“All of the lifeboats were functional,” he said, sucking on his cigarette. “People came and opened all of them up to check and install them.”
Bodies found overnight and today all had life jackets on and weren’t discovered inside the ferry. They may have been trapped under the vessel, the coast guard said.
The ferry, owned and operated by privately held Chonghaejin Marine Co., listed and capsized in an area of the ocean as shallow as 20 meters (66 feet) in some parts, based on readings from a coast guard vessel used in the rescue operation. The ferry was en route from Incheon to Jeju island, popular with tourists and honeymooners.
“We know the rule,” said Oh. ‘The rule is to help the old and the weak, pregnant women, then other passengers, and then we should leave when it appears all have left, and the captain should abandon ship last.’’
source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-18/korean-crew-tells-of-pandemonium-in-minutes-before-ferry-sinking.html
I was reading up on this capsule lifeboat stuff.. It triggers in one of 2 ways:
- You manually activate it by untieing it then giving it a swift kick on the black part to activate
- when submerged 1~2m underwater it activates automatically.
The lifeboat capsule can also hold around 10 people,has rations enough to last 10 people for 3 days, a knife and a flare. There were supposed to be 46 lifeboats? (I don't know if this is even true because before the ship was modified and renamed to SEWOL it had capsule lifeboats attached to the walls of the top deck right next to the exit but those were taken out and instead they added likes 2 more stories onto the ship. In the picture there are only 12 but maybe some more on the other side of the ship?)
What puzzles me though is if this capsule is supposed to automatically activate upon being submerged, why is there only two lifeboats floating around? was it because the rest was still tied to the boat so it activated underwater and sunk with the boat? or was it not even properly tested and there for decoration?
+ Show Spoiler [Capsule Before/After] +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PtNnJUB.png) it looks like this (the black part is where you hit) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/g9elSoC.png) and it quickly blows up into that
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On April 21 2014 17:03 marigoldran wrote:
Please take note at how I said "almost everyone."
My point is that the alternative is worse. Sometimes it's simply better to embrace the chaos. There was of course a third alternative involving an orderly evacuation of the ship: but neither the crew, the captain, or the passengers were prepared for that.
as much as i want to keep my mouth shut on this topic after a 'hi hello'...
your 'recommendation' sounds unreasonable....
i understand the captain's 'honest' assessment at first...
i think he did what he thought was right by not igniting panic and rush judgement to 'take the plunge'...
somehow along the way, he made a grave error of realizing it too late...
therefore leading to mass casualties that would have been prevented...
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On April 21 2014 16:43 Caihead wrote:
It's obviously a terrible tragedy but also clearly a media frenzy to pin all the blame on the captain so the public has a focal point of outrage, we don't even know the name of the person who actually steered the ship and made it tilt, and it's a reasonable fear that if you told people to scramble outside when half the ship was already tilting into water that people would get trampled and swept out under the boat which would be a death sentence.
Well the blame really should be on the captain. He made the call to order the passengers to stay in their rooms for fear of them being swept away in life jackets. His decision literally cost hundreds of lives and would indicate his vessel and the capsize risk. It's a blessing and a curse that Koreans are so reluctant to question elders and authority. I remember they used to have problems with copilots not questioning their seniors on airlines, which led to accidents. Hopefully they can do the same reform for maritime commands and avoid further incidents like this.
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On April 21 2014 17:15 JohnChoi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 15:48 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 21 2014 15:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 21 2014 13:23 riyanme wrote:On April 21 2014 13:18 icystorage wrote:arent the white capsules in the right side of the pic supposed to be lifeboats? yes, apparently used as decorations sadly, a naval sailor also died on Saturday on a boat on the way out to help in the search Is there confirmation that those were not life boats but just decorations or likely to give a false sense of security Titanic style? There were lifeboats, apparently 46 and all functional, however apparently the ship tilted too quickly and passengers didn't have time to get to them. Bridge Absence
Captain Lee, 69, wasn’t on the bridge at the time of the sinking and he had assigned the third navigation officer to steer the vessel, Park Jae Uck, a prosecutor based in Gwangju, told reporters in Mokpo. “He may have returned to the wheelhouse as the ferry began tilting,” he said.
Investigators are probing whether the ferry turned too quickly or abnormally. They declined to say what announcements were made as the ferry sank, or whether passengers were told to stay in their cabins.
The 46 lifeboats on board the ferry had been checked on Feb. 10, according to Oh, who hurt his back during his escape. He was dressed in a white hospital gown and had an IV drip attached to his arm.
Functional Lifeboats
“All of the lifeboats were functional,” he said, sucking on his cigarette. “People came and opened all of them up to check and install them.”
Bodies found overnight and today all had life jackets on and weren’t discovered inside the ferry. They may have been trapped under the vessel, the coast guard said.
The ferry, owned and operated by privately held Chonghaejin Marine Co., listed and capsized in an area of the ocean as shallow as 20 meters (66 feet) in some parts, based on readings from a coast guard vessel used in the rescue operation. The ferry was en route from Incheon to Jeju island, popular with tourists and honeymooners.
“We know the rule,” said Oh. ‘The rule is to help the old and the weak, pregnant women, then other passengers, and then we should leave when it appears all have left, and the captain should abandon ship last.’’
source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-18/korean-crew-tells-of-pandemonium-in-minutes-before-ferry-sinking.html I was reading up on this capsule lifeboat stuff.. It triggers in one of 2 ways: - You manually activate it by untieing it then giving it a swift kick on the black part to activate
- when submerged 1~2m underwater it activates automatically.
The lifeboat capsule can also hold around 10 people,has rations enough to last 10 people for 3 days, a knife and a flare. There were supposed to be 46 lifeboats? (I don't know if this is even true because before the ship was modified and renamed to SEWOL it had capsule lifeboats attached to the walls of the top deck right next to the exit but those were taken out and instead they added likes 2 more stories onto the ship. In the picture there are only 12 but maybe some more on the other side of the ship?) What puzzles me though is if this capsule is supposed to automatically activate upon being submerged, why is there only two lifeboats floating around? was it because the rest was still tied to the boat so it activated underwater and sunk with the boat? or was it not even properly tested and there for decoration? + Show Spoiler [Capsule Before/After] +it looks like this (the black part is where you hit) and it quickly blows up into that
what i can't comprehend is that whether the boat is tilting hard on 45, 60, 180, 360 degrees whatever,
logical move would be to put on a life jacket and prepare the lifeboats...
the lifeboats are near on the bridge... the heck there is no crew on the bridge to even rush and release those...
as for the passengers, when you feel the boat is tilting hard, common sense tells you to abandon ship
but knowing the culture and chaos, that regretably was...
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On April 21 2014 17:06 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 17:03 marigoldran wrote:
Please take note at how I said "almost everyone."
My point is that the alternative is worse. Sometimes it's simply better to embrace the chaos. You realize also that when airplanes hit a water landing, people put on their life jackets but are not supposed to inflate them because the added flotation makes it impossible to swim or dive if water is in the cabin? Would have been the exact same here, it's almost impossible to dive into the water with jackets on unless you are an expert swimmer when the ship is capsizing.
I don't understand your point. What is it? My point is that if everyone had put on their life jackets (I never said to inflate them), and jumped into the water the moment the ship started listing, a lot more people would have been saved.
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On April 21 2014 17:18 riyanme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 17:03 marigoldran wrote:
Please take note at how I said "almost everyone."
My point is that the alternative is worse. Sometimes it's simply better to embrace the chaos. There was of course a third alternative involving an orderly evacuation of the ship: but neither the crew, the captain, or the passengers were prepared for that. as much as i want to keep my mouth shut on this topic after a 'hi hello'... your 'recommendation' sounds unreasonable.... i understand the captain's 'honest' assessment at first... i think he did what he thought was right by not igniting panic and rush judgement to 'take the plunge'... somehow along the way, he made a grave error of realizing it too late... therefore leading to mass casualties that would have been prevented...
My recommendation for everyone to put on life jackets and run screaming to the nearest exit is extremely unreasonable. Nonetheless, in that situation it would have been a better call. And there were many students who chose this decision. They survived.
The best solution would have been for the captain to order everyone to an open area on the ship with their life jackets the moment the ship started listing. Instead he chose the worst option. And yes, while there are reasons for his decision, in the end it was inexcusable.
But blindly listening to authority is inexcusable too. Deadly, in fact.
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Ooops. Double post. Ignore.
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Sixty-four people are known to have died and 238 are missing, presumed dead, in the sinking of the Sewol ferry last Wednesday.
So around 2/3 died =/
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Honestly, guy's like 70 and probably just completely panicked - the shame he'll live with is punishment enough.
Massive kudos to those who helped with the rescue, esp Park Ji-young, 22, who's body was later found.
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On April 21 2014 17:56 n0ise wrote:
Honestly, guy's like 70 and probably just completely panicked - the shame he'll live with is punishment enough.
Massive kudos to those who helped with the rescue, esp Park Ji-young, 22, who's body was later found.
Idk, a 70 year old guy surviving being responsible for the deaths of 200 teenagers is going to piss a lot of people off. I may just be bullshitting on an internet forum but if I were 70 and had the lives of 300 very young people in my hands.... better me than them.
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Apparently we might not be getting the whole story. My (Korean) wife read some blogs saying that the ship originally had made contact with authorities at 7:20 AM (1 hour and 40 minutes before the first distress call, and about 4 hours before it really started sinking) that they had a problem. Since that was originally reported, the media has stopped doing so (in Korea - all worldwide organizations are being fed info from Korean sources I believe). It could potentially have been a military operation gone wrong, or something that the government is covering up (the media is fairly censored in Korea). The blame has thus been shifted onto the captain/crew (President condemning him, etc.) to divert attention away from all that...
However, she (my wife) was just telling me she read about the above theory, not that she believes it, or that I necessarily believe it either. Probably false, but since there's still no confirmed theory on why the ship sank, it's interesting to read about.
Another anecdote: my co-worker's friend is in the coastguard down there, and he said the water was just teeming with bodies as early as Thursday (it sank Wednesday), but they haven't started reporting body counts until more recently.
Anyway, I don't want to de-rail with conspiracy theories or whatever. Just reporting on what you haven't heard in the media probably. 
As a teacher (in Korea...) this incident is fucking heartbreaking. I just imagine what their last moments would have been like... gives me nightmares.
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On April 21 2014 18:19 SoleSteeler wrote:Apparently we might not be getting the whole story. My (Korean) wife read some blogs saying that the ship originally had made contact with authorities at 7:20 AM (1 hour and 40 minutes before the first distress call, and about 4 hours before it really started sinking) that they had a problem. Since that was originally reported, the media has stopped doing so (in Korea - all worldwide organizations are being fed info from Korean sources I believe). It could potentially have been a military operation gone wrong, or something that the government is covering up (the media is fairly censored in Korea). The blame has thus been shifted onto the captain/crew (President condemning him, etc.) to divert attention away from all that... However, she (my wife) was just telling me she read about the above theory, not that she believes it, or that I necessarily believe it either. Probably false, but since there's still no confirmed theory on why the ship sank, it's interesting to read about. Another anecdote: my co-worker's friend is in the coastguard down there, and he said the water was just teeming with bodies as early as Thursday (it sank Wednesday), but they haven't started reporting body counts until more recently. Anyway, I don't want to de-rail with conspiracy theories or whatever. Just reporting on what you haven't heard in the media probably. As a teacher (in Korea...) this incident is fucking heartbreaking. I just imagine what their last moments would have been like... gives me nightmares.
i read a MBC News piece saying the ship was modified and it added like over 800tons of extra mass which might have contributed to the tipping.
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On April 21 2014 17:56 n0ise wrote:
Honestly, guy's like 70 and probably just completely panicked - the shame he'll live with is punishment enough.
Massive kudos to those who helped with the rescue, esp Park Ji-young, 22, who's body was later found.
what "shame" is punishment enough please?
He will keep living and hundreds are dead
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Make an example of him and his officers so the next captain in this situation will choose the better option of putting in a better effort and sinking with the ship, if needs be. The Western tradition is correct: the captain leaves last. And if there's passengers still on the sinking ship, he goes down with them. It makes ships safer because it pushes the captain to worry about safety ALL the time.
The South Korean government should pass a law saying that captains cannot leave a sinking ship until everyone else is safe. This law will immediately force EVERY captain to think carefully about safety- because their own lives depend on it.
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On April 21 2014 17:15 JohnChoi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 15:48 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 21 2014 15:44 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 21 2014 13:23 riyanme wrote:On April 21 2014 13:18 icystorage wrote:arent the white capsules in the right side of the pic supposed to be lifeboats? yes, apparently used as decorations sadly, a naval sailor also died on Saturday on a boat on the way out to help in the search Is there confirmation that those were not life boats but just decorations or likely to give a false sense of security Titanic style? There were lifeboats, apparently 46 and all functional, however apparently the ship tilted too quickly and passengers didn't have time to get to them. Bridge Absence
Captain Lee, 69, wasn’t on the bridge at the time of the sinking and he had assigned the third navigation officer to steer the vessel, Park Jae Uck, a prosecutor based in Gwangju, told reporters in Mokpo. “He may have returned to the wheelhouse as the ferry began tilting,” he said.
Investigators are probing whether the ferry turned too quickly or abnormally. They declined to say what announcements were made as the ferry sank, or whether passengers were told to stay in their cabins.
The 46 lifeboats on board the ferry had been checked on Feb. 10, according to Oh, who hurt his back during his escape. He was dressed in a white hospital gown and had an IV drip attached to his arm.
Functional Lifeboats
“All of the lifeboats were functional,” he said, sucking on his cigarette. “People came and opened all of them up to check and install them.”
Bodies found overnight and today all had life jackets on and weren’t discovered inside the ferry. They may have been trapped under the vessel, the coast guard said.
The ferry, owned and operated by privately held Chonghaejin Marine Co., listed and capsized in an area of the ocean as shallow as 20 meters (66 feet) in some parts, based on readings from a coast guard vessel used in the rescue operation. The ferry was en route from Incheon to Jeju island, popular with tourists and honeymooners.
“We know the rule,” said Oh. ‘The rule is to help the old and the weak, pregnant women, then other passengers, and then we should leave when it appears all have left, and the captain should abandon ship last.’’
source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-18/korean-crew-tells-of-pandemonium-in-minutes-before-ferry-sinking.html I was reading up on this capsule lifeboat stuff.. It triggers in one of 2 ways: - You manually activate it by untieing it then giving it a swift kick on the black part to activate
- when submerged 1~2m underwater it activates automatically.
The lifeboat capsule can also hold around 10 people,has rations enough to last 10 people for 3 days, a knife and a flare. There were supposed to be 46 lifeboats? (I don't know if this is even true because before the ship was modified and renamed to SEWOL it had capsule lifeboats attached to the walls of the top deck right next to the exit but those were taken out and instead they added likes 2 more stories onto the ship. In the picture there are only 12 but maybe some more on the other side of the ship?) What puzzles me though is if this capsule is supposed to automatically activate upon being submerged, why is there only two lifeboats floating around? was it because the rest was still tied to the boat so it activated underwater and sunk with the boat? or was it not even properly tested and there for decoration? + Show Spoiler [Capsule Before/After] +it looks like this (the black part is where you hit) and it quickly blows up into that
@Fiwifaki Is it really that important that passengers get to the lifeboats while on board? Can't somebody just activate all of them and throw them into the water? The passengers can always scramble onto them after they savely left the ship.
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On April 21 2014 18:07 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 17:56 n0ise wrote:
Honestly, guy's like 70 and probably just completely panicked - the shame he'll live with is punishment enough.
Massive kudos to those who helped with the rescue, esp Park Ji-young, 22, who's body was later found. Idk, a 70 year old guy surviving being responsible for the deaths of 200 teenagers is going to piss a lot of people off. I may just be bullshitting on an internet forum but if I were 70 and had the lives of 300 very young people in my hands.... better me than them.
On April 21 2014 18:35 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 17:56 n0ise wrote:
Honestly, guy's like 70 and probably just completely panicked - the shame he'll live with is punishment enough.
Massive kudos to those who helped with the rescue, esp Park Ji-young, 22, who's body was later found. what "shame" is punishment enough please? He will keep living and hundreds are dead
Why are we making him sound so responsible though - can he invoke on ancestral superpowers and keep the boat floating, or what? Ok, perhaps if he's on the ball and starts organizing shit a few less people die... but to imply he's responsible for hundreds dying?! wtf
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There was an article about citizens being furious because the people who knew how to activate the lifeboat capsules just ran the fuck out of that ship onto the passenger ship.
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EPT
