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urboss
Austria1223 Posts
On November 05 2013 04:55 Warfie wrote: Go Carlsen! Such a bullshit move to hold the match in India though, there's been some mention of it in Norwegian media. Who decided to have it in Anand's home town? His best buddy? | ||
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goldrush
Canada709 Posts
For example: Carlsen has been known to play d4, e4 and c4 as the first move in the very highest level tournaments. You're forced to prepare against all three of these moves or you're screwed. He, on the other hand, knows which one he'll play and can focus his preparation much more. You can try old preparation to cut down on the time required and trust that you will be able to solve any problems over the board, but that leaves you open to a barrage of 10 computer moves that he'll have anticipated beforehand. A very crude search since 2008 on chessgames.com shows that Carlsen has drawn about 322/758 or 42% of his games. Granted, not all of them are classical games but it shows a certain tendency. On the other hand, 20 of the 29 Anand-Carlsen games have ended in a draw (though not all are classical games). On November 05 2013 05:09 urboss wrote: If both white and black show perfect play the game should end in a draw. This tendency is seen in current computer chess. However, since chess is played by humans things are not so straightforward. White doesn't have an advantage but it has the initiative. That means, if white plays perfect moves black always needs to react and find the best defence for those moves. For humans, this can be far more difficult than taking the initiative because white can choose from a variety of moves while black needs to react with the one best counter move. That said, this doesn't matter for most chess players, it only applies to maybe the top 100 of the world. I would say that human chess is far more drawish than computer chess. If I look at computer chess tournaments where they pit engines against each other, I don't see too many draws. Engines punish slight mistakes much, much better than humans do. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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Aelfric
Turkey1496 Posts
On November 05 2013 05:22 goldrush wrote: In my opinion, the advantage that white has in this computer age (beyond the whole space/initiative thing) is that they're able to dictate the playing ground. That is very important when computers can extend the depth of the opening and help with determining the important features of the position and discarding the non-important stuff. For example: Carlsen has been known to play d4, e4 and c4 as the first move in the very highest level tournaments. You're forced to prepare against all three of these moves or you're screwed. He, on the other hand, knows which one he'll play and can focus his preparation much more. You can try old preparation to cut down on the time required and trust that you will be able to solve any problems over the board, but that leaves you open to a barrage of 10 computer moves that he'll have anticipated beforehand. A very crude search since 2008 on chessgames.com shows that Carlsen has drawn about 322/758 or 42% of his games. Granted, not all of them are classical games but it shows a certain tendency. On the other hand, 20 of the 29 Anand-Carlsen games have ended in a draw (though not all are classical games). I would say that human chess is far more drawish than computer chess. If I look at computer chess tournaments where they pit engines against each other, I don't see too many draws. Engines punish slight mistakes much, much better than humans do. I kinda agree check the last Houdini vs Stockfish game of TCEC: http://tcec.chessdom.com/stage_3.php where Houdini blundered on 15. move and stockfish just rolled over on king side. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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urboss
Austria1223 Posts
On November 05 2013 06:01 Aelfric wrote: I kinda agree check the last Houdini vs Stockfish game of TCEC: http://tcec.chessdom.com/stage_3.php where Houdini blundered on 15. move and stockfish just rolled over on king side. The reason for this is simple: Engines vary a lot in the algorithms they use and in which parameters they use to evaluate positions. If you want to know if white has an advantage in the game you would have to let Houdini play against itself. Has this been done in big numbers? | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On November 05 2013 04:08 wingpawn wrote: Also, White isn't imbalanced at all. Yes it is, in fact White wins about twice as much games at GM level as black does. Source I'm rooting for Carlsen. I'm a total fanboy since he grinded out that win against Aronian in the Sinquefield cup, although simply agreeing to Aronian's draw offer would have gotten im the win anyway. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
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zev318
Canada4306 Posts
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radscorpion9
Canada2252 Posts
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On November 05 2013 09:02 zev318 wrote: so a dumb question, i know nothing of professional chess. but it says anand has been undisputed world champion since 2007 and then it lists the 5 WCCs he has won. missing from that list is 2009 and 2011. was there no WCC those years or is not winning the WCC irrelevant to being an undisputed world champion? No WCC those years, but there will now be a WCC every year. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On November 05 2013 09:02 zev318 wrote: so a dumb question, i know nothing of professional chess. but it says anand has been undisputed world champion since 2007 and then it lists the 5 WCCs he has won. missing from that list is 2009 and 2011. was there no WCC those years or is not winning the WCC irrelevant to being an undisputed world champion? It's... complicated. At the start of the 90s or so, the owner of the world championship effectively broke away from the governing body (FIDE). So for ~15 years FIDE held their own world championships (which basically everyone ignored as true world championships) while Kasparov was realistically the "actual" world champion. Anyway several years ago they finally got round to reconciling the whole "actual" champion with bringing the World championship cycle back within FIDE auspices. So currently Anand is the FIDE-approved world champion as it were. I should also mention that during these 90s and 00s times there is no set time interval for the world championships - basically a challenger comes up at some stage somehow and he plays the world champion. Now they've reorganised it and it's back on an actual time cycle again. | ||
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ch33psh33p
7650 Posts
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On November 05 2013 09:13 ch33psh33p wrote: Isn't this essentially an assured victory for Carlsen? Its all but his coronation no? Why would it be...? | ||
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Goolpsy
Denmark301 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On November 05 2013 09:13 ch33psh33p wrote: Isn't this essentially an assured victory for Carlsen? Its all but his coronation no? If they'd play a hundred games I'd agree. But Vishy really is a preparation monster, he has shown the last years that in these tournament settings where he has a lot of time to prepare it's very hard to get any kind of edge. Although Carlsen is definitely the stronger player at the moment it will be a tough match. | ||
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goldrush
Canada709 Posts
On November 05 2013 06:25 urboss wrote: The reason for this is simple: Engines vary a lot in the algorithms they use and in which parameters they use to evaluate positions. If you want to know if white has an advantage in the game you would have to let Houdini play against itself. Has this been done in big numbers? The problem is that Houdini will evaluate the position the same way and recognize the same threats. It's going to be naturally drawish that way. Houdini against itself wouldn't prove anything, especially as Houdini is among the best chess engines out there but not unanimously the absolute best. Different engines treat positions differently and some engines are better than Houdini in certain types of positions. You also can't say that Houdini is 'truth' in chess or it wouldn't lose to its peers. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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Dogfoodboy16
364 Posts
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Aerisky
United States12129 Posts
On November 05 2013 02:09 Orome wrote: For everyone who doesn't follow the chess world: Carlsen's the undisputed best player in the world and has been for a while. He's absolutely dominated chess in recent years. Anand is a veteran, has had a long and great career and is one of the greatest players of his generation. He has been the world champion since 2007. If you judged purely from their tournament play, you'd have to expect Carlsen to completely crush this match. Anand has been underperforming in tournaments for a very long time, in fact he's probably the world champion who's had the least tournament success during his reign. Carlsen meanwhile is winning almost every tournament he enters, seemingly able to outplay his opponents in all positions, even with questionable opening play. That would be a very shortsighted opinion though. Tournament play is one thing, but a match - and especially a world championship match - is a different beast. The amount of preparation that goes into a WC match is insane. We have no idea how much these two players have been holding back in the past 6 months to hide their intended opening repertoires for the match. Tournament wins are great and all, but the world championship title is more important than anything else in chess. Carlsen can't be one of the greatest players in the history of chess before he becomes world champion. There's an insane amount of pressure on him. Anand on the other hand has little to lose - he's won everything you can win in chess and there's no shame in losing to Carlsen. He has a huge amount of match experience and also has a great team around him, something that can't be underestimated - with the right preparation, he can definitely beat Carlsen. Overall I'm expecting and hoping for Carlsen to win, but it's a very short match and anything can happen. Whoa thanks for the background and general info there. I remember first reading about Carlsen years ago from a thread someone made here, and thinking Carlsen sounded super badass. This sounds super interesting and I hope it's an amazing match (that Carlsen wins!). Should be cool. | ||
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