EPTUK Politics Mega-thread - Page 89
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
On June 17 2016 06:11 WhiteDog wrote: I just heard about the assassination ... Quite sad. Is it sure that she was killed because of her position on Brexit ? Nothing to do with it, one eye witness said the man didn't say anything about "Britain First" or w/e else was quoted. Will take a while for the facts to emerge but i think the latest is she intervened in a struggle and the attacker turned on her. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4416 Posts
On June 17 2016 08:25 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So it's safe to say that Britain will remain in the EU after this, no? Just heard her birthday is 22nd June, one day before the vote. This will be plastered all over the news. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4416 Posts
From the Labour Leave campaign. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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KwarK
United States43989 Posts
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
Edit: My suggestion is generic not necessarily "EU super state" as some British people have habit to call it. | ||
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KwarK
United States43989 Posts
On June 18 2016 02:41 Shield wrote: So, if the UK decides to remain, it will still not be a solution. The real solution is to make EU and the UK more connected to make up for geographical isolation, so more British people feel European or pro-European. Edit: My suggestion is generic not necessarily "EU super state" as some British people have habit to call it. We like the common market and we like the standardization of goods across Europe. People moan about regulations but equally they like the fact that anything made in England for the English is valid for sale anywhere on the continent and the other way around. We also like cooperation on legal issues, the environment, managing fish stocks and so forth because we are aware that pollution and wildlife don't respect national borders. Where you lose the UK is on matters of conscience, such as whether or not prisoners have the right to vote, and European politics, such as EU expansion or increasing unification. Those are divisive and for people who wish to see a European superstate form and then push towards the borders of Russia they will always find themselves in conflict with those who just want to not need a visa to go on holiday in Spain. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On June 18 2016 02:52 KwarK wrote: We like the common market and we like the standardization of goods across Europe. People moan about regulations but equally they like the fact that anything made in England for the English is valid for sale anywhere on the continent and the other way around. We also like cooperation on legal issues, the environment, managing fish stocks and so forth because we are aware that pollution and wildlife don't respect national borders. Where you lose the UK is on matters of conscience, such as whether or not prisoners have the right to vote, and European politics, such as EU expansion or increasing unification. Those are divisive and for people who wish to see a European superstate form and then push towards the borders of Russia they will always find themselves in conflict with those who just want to not need a visa to go on holiday in Spain. I can't consider this argument of prisoners being able to vote or not a big issue. They are probably so few that their vote won't change the outcome in most cases. That said, maybe petty criminals should still be able to vote but maybe not others. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On June 18 2016 03:22 oneofthem wrote: can't see this as anything other than a fairly blind charge at 'globalism' and all that new stuff. Blind charge that's been in progress since the end of the war and been fairly successful on all accounts And all that new stuff | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
Sweden was growing at 4% in 2015. The unemployment in Germany is 4.5%. I fail to see how belonging in the EU damages the growth and unemployment prospects a country has, especially when it doesn't belong in the Eurozone. If anything it boosts GDP by having access to a single market, standardisation and freedom of movement. I'm somehow failing to see you pointing at the successor states of the EU's employment figures as a positive. Every other country in this failing EU pyramid scheme is seeing much higher figures than that. Not to mention the fact that once Turkey gets invited you're basically opening the boarders to a population predicted to reach 91 million by 2050, it will be the dominant member of the EU and it's not even a proper democracy. When a 1.8bn economy negotiates with a 12bn economy who dictates the terms? Net EU trade with the UK is way higher than UK trade with the EU. The UK has a large sea tile that is being used by the European fishing industry, on top of being the primary customer for the german car industry. That 1.8 bn economy has a commonwealth alliance as well as other nations to trade with (america, canada, new zealand). There's no such thing as dictating the therms when one party can walk from the table until a favorable deal is reached. There is talk about Norway not having influence, but does the UK have more influence than us? Is the vote something that actually matters? Considering that all the talk about brussels being fundamentally undemocratic and unrepresentative and looking to make a united totalitarian state of europe. It doesn't seem that way from where i stand. the UK is basically paying the full price to have no influence, and to be fully beholden to the EU. " "As a minister I've seen hundreds of new EU rules cross my desk, none of which were requested by the UK Parliament, none of which I or any other British politician could alter in any way and none of which made us freer, richer or fairer," Justice Secretary Michael Gove said." Whereas while Norway is paying a bunch of money to the EU as part of the schengen accords. We at least have full control over our own agriculture and fisheries policy, our external trade and regional and foreign affairs are all a matter of government policy. I'm not sure what your definition of disaster is but: "The poll also found a majority of [British economists] – 57% – held the view that a vote for Brexit on 23 June would blow a hole in economic growth, cutting GDP by more than 3% over the next five years. Just 5% thought that there would probably be a positive impact." Most Economists can't agree on anything, poll's can be done to represent the good in both sides, and let's not forget that most of these idiots didn't forsee the 2008 banking crisis. This is not a matter of economic certainty. All change is uncertain, but change is also necessary for the advancement of humanity. it's a matter of tearing down the EU. You cannot work within that anti democratic system and expect it to right itself. No government in the history of mankind ever has. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
To say the UK, the people of the UK or the people of any state within the EU do not have influence is really not true at all and while the EU could be made more democratic and accountable the Leave campaign are completely (unsurprisingly) overblowing how bad it actually is. | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6641 Posts
For years I've just kind of gone along with the story that Farage was some fringe lunatic but it turns out he might actually have been right all along. Also I'm all for European countries working together and having a common market, I'm even in favour of countries like Britain and Germany giving money to develop countries like Poland but it turns out the way it's been done is really inefficient and a lot of the money is just wasted on bureaucracy. The more I learn the more it seems like Germany is the only country that's really benefited from the whole project. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On June 18 2016 04:52 jello_biafra wrote: I was heavily in favour of staying in the EU until very recently but the more I find out the more I change my mind, I assumed the parliament worked like a normal parliament and that there was some degree of democracy. Turns out the EU cripples democracy and self-determination. It doesn't matter what you believe. If you're a communist, capitalist, monarchist, whatever, any changes you want to make can be nullified by the EU. Basically, unless your ideals align perfectly with what they want, and you're confident that their interests will never diverge from your own, you have no reason to vote remain. It's a rare case of a truly bipartisan issue, and it's telling that support for leave has been so high despite the entire establishment pushing against it. For years I've just kind of gone along with the story that Farage was some fringe lunatic but it turns out he might actually have been right all along. Also I'm all for European countries working together and having a common market, I'm even in favour of countries like Britain and Germany giving money to develop countries like Poland but it turns out the way it's been done is really inefficient and a lot of the money is just wasted on bureaucracy. The more I learn the more it seems like Germany is the only country that's really benefited from the whole project. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gILTIDr4Ra8 Yes, and your PM and MPs are elected by EU. Also, EU threatens to eat your children. Don't you feel you overstretch your arguments here? You make it sound like your parliament has no power at all. Germany isn't some evil genius. In fact, it's a more disciplined country than the UK even though I live in the UK. Just because you can't make it work doesn't mean others can't. Learn something from Germany. | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6641 Posts
On June 18 2016 05:08 Shield wrote: Yes, and your PM and MPs are elected by EU. Also, EU threatens to eat your children. Don't you feel you overstretch your arguments here? You make it sound like your parliament has no power at all. Germany isn't some evil genius. In fact, it's a more disciplined country than the UK even though I live in the UK. Just because you can't make it work doesn't mean others can't. Learn something from Germany. Learn what? How to create a currency union that enriches your country to the cost of Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal? How to engineer a refugee crisis? | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On June 18 2016 05:17 jello_biafra wrote: Learn what? How to create a currency union that enriches your country to the cost of Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal? How to engineer a refugee crisis? You're very uneducated, aren't you? Who intervened in the Middle East to cause refugee crisis? Hint: Germany wasn't the major player. It was your friend Tony Blair and George Bush. | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6641 Posts
On June 18 2016 05:20 Shield wrote: You're very uneducated, aren't you? Who intervened in the Middle East to cause refugee crisis? Hint: Germany wasn't the major player. It was your friend Tony Blair and George Bush. Yes, Tony Blair caused the Syrian civil war... Merkel was the one that openly invited everyone to come to Europe, the majority of the migrants aren't Syrian and many aren't even refugees | ||
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KwarK
United States43989 Posts
On June 18 2016 05:24 jello_biafra wrote: Yes, Tony Blair caused the Syrian civil war... Not sure if sarcastic or unaware that ISI only became ISIS when the preexisting Iraqi insurgency created by the Iraq invasion invaded Syria during the Arab Spring. | ||
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