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On October 06 2020 20:02 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2020 19:42 Zealos wrote:
legal is what the government decides, sadly
more and more I think the concept of an independent judiciary to be a joke of a pipe dream, sadly I think it's more of a case of the UK not having a constitution. That would never fly in a country with a consititution and a supreme court able to strike down BS like that. But I might be wrong.
TBH I'm pretty sure someone will figure out a way to challenge this in court on discrimination grounds. Discrimination laws are pretty far reaching in our country and the tories have lost a number of court cases by not thinking through the discriminatory consequences of rushed partisan legislation.
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On October 06 2020 20:20 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2020 20:02 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 06 2020 19:42 Zealos wrote:
legal is what the government decides, sadly
more and more I think the concept of an independent judiciary to be a joke of a pipe dream, sadly I think it's more of a case of the UK not having a constitution. That would never fly in a country with a consititution and a supreme court able to strike down BS like that. But I might be wrong. TBH I'm pretty sure someone will figure out a way to challenge this in court on discrimination grounds. Discrimination laws are pretty far reaching in our country and the tories have lost a number of court cases by not thinking through the discriminatory consequences of rushed partisan legislation.
That's good to know. The whole thing is incredibly worrying.
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Imagine finding out at 26 that your dad isn't the left wing activist you thought he was and that your entire life was just an attempt to get closer to your mum to spy on her because she's left wing.
What an absolute disgrace. Meanwhile what are our two main parties doing? Making law that allows MI5 and undercover police to commit crimes. I wonder how long it is before more innocent left wingers get screwed by the new laws.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/oct/07/met-police-pay-compensation-to-man-fathered-by-undercover-officer
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54274605
Scotland Yard has apologised and paid substantial compensation to a man who was fathered by an undercover police officer who formed a long-term relationship with his mother in the 1980s in order to spy on political campaigners.
The Metropolitan police has been compelled to pay the confidential sum after the man said in a lawsuit that he suffered psychiatric damage after discovering, at the age of 26, that his father was not the committed leftwing protester he had been led to believe.
He discovered his father, who abandoned him as a two-year-old child, was in fact Bob Lambert, a police spy who had deceived his mother into an intimate relationship as part of an operation to infiltrate animal rights and environmental groups.
Undercover informants working for the police and MI5 are going to be explicitly permitted for the first time under British law to commit crimes.
The unprecedented legislation to authorise and oversee crimes comes after years of unclear rules over when these agents can break the law.
The law will not specify exactly which crimes can be committed.
And critics are urging MPs to amend the proposed law to rule out murder and serious violence.
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The law will not specify exactly which crimes can be committed.
And critics are urging MPs to amend the proposed law to rule out murder and serious violence
So, uh... as written they can just hire assassins?
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On October 08 2020 00:37 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +The law will not specify exactly which crimes can be committed.
And critics are urging MPs to amend the proposed law to rule out murder and serious violence So, uh... as written they can just hire assassins?
I think so yes. I have no idea how that would play out in the context of our existing laws.
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I think as it is currently only UN Human Rights supercede that piece of legislation, so stuff like right to live, i.e. undercover officers shouldn't be allowed to murder anyone. But that is scary that they essentially leave it to case by case interpretation rather than set legislative limits to what is allowed and what is not allowed.
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Netherlands21351 Posts
On October 08 2020 00:29 Jockmcplop wrote:Imagine finding out at 26 that your dad isn't the left wing activist you thought he was and that your entire life was just an attempt to get closer to your mum to spy on her because she's left wing. What an absolute disgrace. Meanwhile what are our two main parties doing? Making law that allows MI5 and undercover police to commit crimes. I wonder how long it is before more innocent left wingers get screwed by the new laws. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/oct/07/met-police-pay-compensation-to-man-fathered-by-undercover-officerhttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54274605Show nested quote +Scotland Yard has apologised and paid substantial compensation to a man who was fathered by an undercover police officer who formed a long-term relationship with his mother in the 1980s in order to spy on political campaigners.
The Metropolitan police has been compelled to pay the confidential sum after the man said in a lawsuit that he suffered psychiatric damage after discovering, at the age of 26, that his father was not the committed leftwing protester he had been led to believe.
He discovered his father, who abandoned him as a two-year-old child, was in fact Bob Lambert, a police spy who had deceived his mother into an intimate relationship as part of an operation to infiltrate animal rights and environmental groups. Show nested quote +Undercover informants working for the police and MI5 are going to be explicitly permitted for the first time under British law to commit crimes.
The unprecedented legislation to authorise and oversee crimes comes after years of unclear rules over when these agents can break the law.
The law will not specify exactly which crimes can be committed.
And critics are urging MPs to amend the proposed law to rule out murder and serious violence. To have your father abandon you is bad enough, but to then later discover you were conceived to help him infiltrate animal rights activists is... wow. That is some fucked up shit.
On October 08 2020 00:51 Oukka wrote:
I think as it is currently only UN Human Rights supercede that piece of legislation, so stuff like right to live, i.e. undercover officers shouldn't be allowed to murder anyone. But that is scary that they essentially leave it to case by case interpretation rather than set legislative limits to what is allowed and what is not allowed. The problem with setting clear limits for what is and is not allowed is that if they are public the criminals can ask cops to do the things they are not allowed to do to find help weed out undercover cops.
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So ... british secrets agents will now actually have a license to kill?
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UN Human Rights supercede that piece of legislation That's a thing that happens?
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On October 08 2020 01:58 GreenHorizons wrote: That's a thing that happens?
That's the legal situation as far as I understood it. In practice, well I'm sure you have a good idea of what it'll mean.
Edit: also regarding the hard limits set in law and criminals using that to test undercover officers. Yeah that is an understandable argument sometimes.
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On October 08 2020 02:19 Oukka wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2020 01:58 GreenHorizons wrote: UN Human Rights supercede that piece of legislation That's a thing that happens? That's the legal situation as far as I understood it. In practice, well I'm sure you have a good idea of what it'll mean. Edit: also regarding the hard limits set in law and criminals using that to test undercover officers. Yeah that is an understandable argument sometimes.
And who is actually enforcing UN human rights ? No one. The country does, in this case nothing would happen.
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Chancellor Sunak told artists to find a "viable" job. The sector has been devastated by restrictions (often not even necessary) and minimalist help from the government - all of that in a context where the arts are already horrendously underfunded compared to other european countries.
People who have invested 10000+ hours into becoming extremely qualified and skilled professionals will appreciate being told they are not viable by a former Goldman Sachs banker.
The UK is going to absolute shit.
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Northern Ireland23782 Posts
On October 09 2020 17:16 Biff The Understudy wrote:Chancellor Sunak told artists to find a "viable" job. The sector has been devastated by restrictions (often not even necessary) and minimalist help from the government - all of that in a context where the arts are already horrendously underfunded compared to other european countries. People who have invested 10000+ hours into becoming extremely qualified and skilled professionals will appreciate being told they are not viable by a former Goldman Sachs banker. The UK is going to absolute shit.
Is there a country you haven’t left? :p
I suppose this is what you get when you value humans as merely economic units.
It’s a real triple whammy of contempt for the arts. Some (not all) performers could absolutely 100% perform, bars can be full and people not exactly being exemplary in distancing, but even a sampler performing duo cannot play music in said bars.
Then they aren’t getting the same help as people from other industries who are barred from working are getting.
Then on top of that we get the chancellor of the exchequer telling these people that they’re not viable and should just stop using their specialist skillset and do something else.
The U.K. really is sailing rather serenely into shit creek, alas it has forgotten to pack its paddles.
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On October 09 2020 21:50 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2020 17:16 Biff The Understudy wrote:Chancellor Sunak told artists to find a "viable" job. The sector has been devastated by restrictions (often not even necessary) and minimalist help from the government - all of that in a context where the arts are already horrendously underfunded compared to other european countries. People who have invested 10000+ hours into becoming extremely qualified and skilled professionals will appreciate being told they are not viable by a former Goldman Sachs banker. The UK is going to absolute shit. Is there a country you haven’t left? :p I suppose this is what you get when you value humans as merely economic units. It’s a real triple whammy of contempt for the arts. Some (not all) performers could absolutely 100% perform, bars can be full and people not exactly being exemplary in distancing, but even a sampler performing duo cannot play music in said bars. Then they aren’t getting the same help as people from other industries who are barred from working are getting. Then on top of that we get the chancellor of the exchequer telling these people that they’re not viable and should just stop using their specialist skillset and do something else. The U.K. really is sailing rather serenely into shit creek, alas it has forgotten to pack its paddles.
No, I'm a rootless cosmopolitan scum. That gives me the awesome advantage of being able to say "I've lived there, it's shit" in pretty much every conversation.
But yeah. I can't recall the number of time in the UK (usually rich) people have asked me if I had a real job when I told them I was a musician. I'm still, 8 years after leaving the country, receiving emails asking me to play for "extremely exciting" projects, providing "fantastic opportunities" to "promote myself" by organizers that "unfortunately" aren't able to provide a fee. As if my fucking bills were gonna pay themselves.
As for Sunak, I guess you can't expect a Goldman Sachs banker to do any better.
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Northern Ireland23782 Posts
On October 10 2020 00:45 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2020 21:50 WombaT wrote:On October 09 2020 17:16 Biff The Understudy wrote:Chancellor Sunak told artists to find a "viable" job. The sector has been devastated by restrictions (often not even necessary) and minimalist help from the government - all of that in a context where the arts are already horrendously underfunded compared to other european countries. People who have invested 10000+ hours into becoming extremely qualified and skilled professionals will appreciate being told they are not viable by a former Goldman Sachs banker. The UK is going to absolute shit. Is there a country you haven’t left? :p I suppose this is what you get when you value humans as merely economic units. It’s a real triple whammy of contempt for the arts. Some (not all) performers could absolutely 100% perform, bars can be full and people not exactly being exemplary in distancing, but even a sampler performing duo cannot play music in said bars. Then they aren’t getting the same help as people from other industries who are barred from working are getting. Then on top of that we get the chancellor of the exchequer telling these people that they’re not viable and should just stop using their specialist skillset and do something else. The U.K. really is sailing rather serenely into shit creek, alas it has forgotten to pack its paddles. No, I'm a rootless cosmopolitan scum. That gives me the awesome advantage of being able to say "I've lived there, it's shit" in pretty much every conversation. But yeah. I can't recall the number of time in the UK (usually rich) people have asked me if I had a real job when I told them I was a musician. I'm still, 8 years after leaving the country, receiving emails asking me to play for "extremely exciting" projects, providing "fantastic opportunities" to "promote myself" by organizers that "unfortunately" aren't able to provide a fee. As if my fucking bills were gonna pay themselves. As for Sunak, I guess you can't expect a Goldman Sachs banker to do any better.
Hey at least you admit it, could be worse you could feel rootless like me in the city of my birth and where I’ve spent my whole life!
What kind of musician are you Biff? Given your frequency of relocating I’m picturing you just roaming around (in pre-Covid times) with a guitar case and a knapsack with all your belongings on your back. Almost 100% an inaccurate mental image.
Musicians seem especially cursed by all sorts of weird factors. People are impressed with even the most mediocre display of musical chops, but completely ignorant of what technical skills competent musicians have. I still haven’t forgot or forgiven the savaging one of my demo tracks where I wrote and performed everything and was marked ‘UNMIXED FORMATIVE DEMO’ for not sounding polished haha.
And chancers bleed musicians for free labour for nebulous things like ‘exposure’ like few other industries.
I don’t really expect much from a banker, granted I felt Sunak had done a pretty decent job all-round in mitigating the effects of the pandemic, but this has not been extended to the performing arts at all.
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On October 10 2020 05:41 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2020 00:45 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 09 2020 21:50 WombaT wrote:On October 09 2020 17:16 Biff The Understudy wrote:Chancellor Sunak told artists to find a "viable" job. The sector has been devastated by restrictions (often not even necessary) and minimalist help from the government - all of that in a context where the arts are already horrendously underfunded compared to other european countries. People who have invested 10000+ hours into becoming extremely qualified and skilled professionals will appreciate being told they are not viable by a former Goldman Sachs banker. The UK is going to absolute shit. Is there a country you haven’t left? :p I suppose this is what you get when you value humans as merely economic units. It’s a real triple whammy of contempt for the arts. Some (not all) performers could absolutely 100% perform, bars can be full and people not exactly being exemplary in distancing, but even a sampler performing duo cannot play music in said bars. Then they aren’t getting the same help as people from other industries who are barred from working are getting. Then on top of that we get the chancellor of the exchequer telling these people that they’re not viable and should just stop using their specialist skillset and do something else. The U.K. really is sailing rather serenely into shit creek, alas it has forgotten to pack its paddles. No, I'm a rootless cosmopolitan scum. That gives me the awesome advantage of being able to say "I've lived there, it's shit" in pretty much every conversation. But yeah. I can't recall the number of time in the UK (usually rich) people have asked me if I had a real job when I told them I was a musician. I'm still, 8 years after leaving the country, receiving emails asking me to play for "extremely exciting" projects, providing "fantastic opportunities" to "promote myself" by organizers that "unfortunately" aren't able to provide a fee. As if my fucking bills were gonna pay themselves. As for Sunak, I guess you can't expect a Goldman Sachs banker to do any better. Hey at least you admit it, could be worse you could feel rootless like me in the city of my birth and where I’ve spent my whole life! What kind of musician are you Biff? Given your frequency of relocating I’m picturing you just roaming around (in pre-Covid times) with a guitar case and a knapsack with all your belongings on your back. Almost 100% an inaccurate mental image. Musicians seem especially cursed by all sorts of weird factors. People are impressed with even the most mediocre display of musical chops, but completely ignorant of what technical skills competent musicians have. I still haven’t forgot or forgiven the savaging one of my demo tracks where I wrote and performed everything and was marked ‘UNMIXED FORMATIVE DEMO’ for not sounding polished haha. And chancers bleed musicians for free labour for nebulous things like ‘exposure’ like few other industries. I don’t really expect much from a banker, granted I felt Sunak had done a pretty decent job all-round in mitigating the effects of the pandemic, but this has not been extended to the performing arts at all.
Oh God. Ye, wrong picture. I play in a symphony orchestra. So, I actually have a full time job and a salary in a century old institution and in that respect, I have probably one the one most secure, least bohème and most comfortable position anyone can get in music :D
The roaming around days did occur though, as I have studied and then free lanced a bit all around Europe before winning my job here. These days I only play abroad during the summer - mainly for fun - and when the orchestra goes on tour.
But so, I take it your a musician too then?
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On October 10 2020 16:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2020 05:41 WombaT wrote:On October 10 2020 00:45 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 09 2020 21:50 WombaT wrote:On October 09 2020 17:16 Biff The Understudy wrote:Chancellor Sunak told artists to find a "viable" job. The sector has been devastated by restrictions (often not even necessary) and minimalist help from the government - all of that in a context where the arts are already horrendously underfunded compared to other european countries. People who have invested 10000+ hours into becoming extremely qualified and skilled professionals will appreciate being told they are not viable by a former Goldman Sachs banker. The UK is going to absolute shit. Is there a country you haven’t left? :p I suppose this is what you get when you value humans as merely economic units. It’s a real triple whammy of contempt for the arts. Some (not all) performers could absolutely 100% perform, bars can be full and people not exactly being exemplary in distancing, but even a sampler performing duo cannot play music in said bars. Then they aren’t getting the same help as people from other industries who are barred from working are getting. Then on top of that we get the chancellor of the exchequer telling these people that they’re not viable and should just stop using their specialist skillset and do something else. The U.K. really is sailing rather serenely into shit creek, alas it has forgotten to pack its paddles. No, I'm a rootless cosmopolitan scum. That gives me the awesome advantage of being able to say "I've lived there, it's shit" in pretty much every conversation. But yeah. I can't recall the number of time in the UK (usually rich) people have asked me if I had a real job when I told them I was a musician. I'm still, 8 years after leaving the country, receiving emails asking me to play for "extremely exciting" projects, providing "fantastic opportunities" to "promote myself" by organizers that "unfortunately" aren't able to provide a fee. As if my fucking bills were gonna pay themselves. As for Sunak, I guess you can't expect a Goldman Sachs banker to do any better. Hey at least you admit it, could be worse you could feel rootless like me in the city of my birth and where I’ve spent my whole life! What kind of musician are you Biff? Given your frequency of relocating I’m picturing you just roaming around (in pre-Covid times) with a guitar case and a knapsack with all your belongings on your back. Almost 100% an inaccurate mental image. Musicians seem especially cursed by all sorts of weird factors. People are impressed with even the most mediocre display of musical chops, but completely ignorant of what technical skills competent musicians have. I still haven’t forgot or forgiven the savaging one of my demo tracks where I wrote and performed everything and was marked ‘UNMIXED FORMATIVE DEMO’ for not sounding polished haha. And chancers bleed musicians for free labour for nebulous things like ‘exposure’ like few other industries. I don’t really expect much from a banker, granted I felt Sunak had done a pretty decent job all-round in mitigating the effects of the pandemic, but this has not been extended to the performing arts at all. Oh God. Ye, wrong picture. I play in a symphony orchestra. So, I actually have a full time job and a salary in a century old institution and in that respect, I have probably one the one most secure, least bohème and most comfortable position anyone can get in music :D The roaming around days did occur though, as I have studied and then free lanced a bit all around Europe before winning my job here. These days I only play abroad during the summer - mainly for fun - and when the orchestra goes on tour. But so, I take it your a musician too then?
Hey, I play in a symphony orchestra too! And yes, I totally agree how refusing to allow people to go to concerts is often outrageous. Sport events are equally bad, why not allow a single seat to be sold in a 50k+ stadium OUTSIDE?
Given how the industry of West End shows have been a private and giant part of London, I am very worried about UK musicians. As record sales is no longer a viable source of income, most musicians have relied on live concerts, and with them gone, there is no real options, given how low the turnout is for online sales and streaming.
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Yeah, England and in particular London have somewhat always managed to keep a world class artistic life even though the status of artists is absolutely disgraceful in the UK (I met quite successful actors in the theatre industry who had one or even two side jobs to make ends meet), but I just don't know how that's going to carry on.
At the moment (pre Corona) even touring in the UK has become problematic because of how dumb the laws for working in the UK. When I left, I knew many EXTREMELY qualified musicians and artists who had studied in the UK on scholarships and were getting deported because of some dumb anti immigration rule the tories had invented.
If we remember the 2010's as the end of Britain as a world leading artistic nation, I really would not be surprised.
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Jesus Christ what a bunch of dicks:
The level of contempt is just astonishing.
Luckily the internets strike back:
And of course:
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