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On September 17 2019 06:54 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 06:36 Gorsameth wrote:On September 17 2019 05:42 Ben... wrote:
It sounds like Boris Johnson didn't have a very good day today. His working lunch with various EU figures ended in him abandoning a press conference due to protests then getting dunked on by the PM of Luxembourg. Juncker also confirmed that nothing has really been done negotiations-wise. I fail to see how any of it matters when Johnsons job in Brussels is to sabotage the extension that he is forced to ask for. He's not there to look good and get a deal. Then why be there at all? What does he have to gain? All this would do is piss off the EU members he's going to be negotiating with post-Brexit should his beloved no-deal Brexit go through. I don't see how this behaviour is either good for the UK economically or good for Johnson politically. If a no-deal Brexit happens and then the EU refuses to make any trade deals with Johnson because he pissed them off too much then the UK's completely screwed. It seems like there is absolutely no foresight to any actions he takes or anything he does.
Because now he can go home and again claim how he is totally trying to get a deal to make Britain Great again.
Its all for the optics.
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On September 17 2019 06:54 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 06:36 Gorsameth wrote:On September 17 2019 05:42 Ben... wrote:
It sounds like Boris Johnson didn't have a very good day today. His working lunch with various EU figures ended in him abandoning a press conference due to protests then getting dunked on by the PM of Luxembourg. Juncker also confirmed that nothing has really been done negotiations-wise. I fail to see how any of it matters when Johnsons job in Brussels is to sabotage the extension that he is forced to ask for. He's not there to look good and get a deal. Then why be there at all? What does he have to gain? All this would do is piss off the EU members he's going to be negotiating with post-Brexit should his beloved no-deal Brexit go through. I don't see how this behaviour is either good for the UK economically or good for Johnson politically. If a no-deal Brexit happens and then the EU refuses to make any trade deals with Johnson because he pissed them off too much then the UK's completely screwed. It seems like there is absolutely no foresight to any actions he takes or anything he does. Your mistake is thinking Boris gives a shit about the UK economically or his own career politically.
If either of those things mattered he wouldn't have touched Brexit with a 10 foot pole.
Since he appears to push so hard for a no-deal at any cost he or people around him are probably positioned to earn a lot of money off of it. I don't see much else that explains his active pushing for a no-deal.
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On September 17 2019 08:13 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 06:54 Ben... wrote:On September 17 2019 06:36 Gorsameth wrote:On September 17 2019 05:42 Ben... wrote:
It sounds like Boris Johnson didn't have a very good day today. His working lunch with various EU figures ended in him abandoning a press conference due to protests then getting dunked on by the PM of Luxembourg. Juncker also confirmed that nothing has really been done negotiations-wise. I fail to see how any of it matters when Johnsons job in Brussels is to sabotage the extension that he is forced to ask for. He's not there to look good and get a deal. Then why be there at all? What does he have to gain? All this would do is piss off the EU members he's going to be negotiating with post-Brexit should his beloved no-deal Brexit go through. I don't see how this behaviour is either good for the UK economically or good for Johnson politically. If a no-deal Brexit happens and then the EU refuses to make any trade deals with Johnson because he pissed them off too much then the UK's completely screwed. It seems like there is absolutely no foresight to any actions he takes or anything he does. Your mistake is thinking Boris gives a shit about the UK economically or his own career politically. If either of those things mattered he wouldn't have touched Brexit with a 10 foot pole. Since he appears to push so hard for a no-deal at any cost he or people around him are probably positioned to earn a lot of money off of it. I don't see much else that explains his active pushing for a no-deal.
Yeah, you're probably right. Money's the only justification I can think of for his behaviour too. Nothing he does makes any sense in any other context.
I guess it's just the times we're in where it's normal for people from completely different areas of the world to be more concerned about what will happen to the people of a country than the prime minister of that country.
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On September 17 2019 08:58 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 08:13 Gorsameth wrote:On September 17 2019 06:54 Ben... wrote:On September 17 2019 06:36 Gorsameth wrote:On September 17 2019 05:42 Ben... wrote:
It sounds like Boris Johnson didn't have a very good day today. His working lunch with various EU figures ended in him abandoning a press conference due to protests then getting dunked on by the PM of Luxembourg. Juncker also confirmed that nothing has really been done negotiations-wise. I fail to see how any of it matters when Johnsons job in Brussels is to sabotage the extension that he is forced to ask for. He's not there to look good and get a deal. Then why be there at all? What does he have to gain? All this would do is piss off the EU members he's going to be negotiating with post-Brexit should his beloved no-deal Brexit go through. I don't see how this behaviour is either good for the UK economically or good for Johnson politically. If a no-deal Brexit happens and then the EU refuses to make any trade deals with Johnson because he pissed them off too much then the UK's completely screwed. It seems like there is absolutely no foresight to any actions he takes or anything he does. Your mistake is thinking Boris gives a shit about the UK economically or his own career politically. If either of those things mattered he wouldn't have touched Brexit with a 10 foot pole. Since he appears to push so hard for a no-deal at any cost he or people around him are probably positioned to earn a lot of money off of it. I don't see much else that explains his active pushing for a no-deal. Yeah, you're probably right. Money's the only justification I can think of for his behaviour too. Nothing he does makes any sense in any other context. I guess it's just the times we're in where it's normal for people from completely different areas of the world to be more concerned about what will happen to the people of a country than the prime minister of that country.
Any specific ruler will die of old age or stop ruling due to how their system is built up. The people in general will still be there afterwards, not the same individuals. Seems a reasonable view to care more about the people than whoever is at the top at that time.
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Boris is positioning himself to swoop up the Brexit party vote and to demonise Corbyn as the second coming of Stalin at the same time and the English will swallow it!
It's the cubing of the circle.
Get a no deal Brexit.
Win the subsequent election.
Become a PM with a full fledged mandate.
(Break the Union)
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On September 17 2019 15:09 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 08:58 Ben... wrote:On September 17 2019 08:13 Gorsameth wrote:On September 17 2019 06:54 Ben... wrote:On September 17 2019 06:36 Gorsameth wrote:On September 17 2019 05:42 Ben... wrote:
It sounds like Boris Johnson didn't have a very good day today. His working lunch with various EU figures ended in him abandoning a press conference due to protests then getting dunked on by the PM of Luxembourg. Juncker also confirmed that nothing has really been done negotiations-wise. I fail to see how any of it matters when Johnsons job in Brussels is to sabotage the extension that he is forced to ask for. He's not there to look good and get a deal. Then why be there at all? What does he have to gain? All this would do is piss off the EU members he's going to be negotiating with post-Brexit should his beloved no-deal Brexit go through. I don't see how this behaviour is either good for the UK economically or good for Johnson politically. If a no-deal Brexit happens and then the EU refuses to make any trade deals with Johnson because he pissed them off too much then the UK's completely screwed. It seems like there is absolutely no foresight to any actions he takes or anything he does. Your mistake is thinking Boris gives a shit about the UK economically or his own career politically. If either of those things mattered he wouldn't have touched Brexit with a 10 foot pole. Since he appears to push so hard for a no-deal at any cost he or people around him are probably positioned to earn a lot of money off of it. I don't see much else that explains his active pushing for a no-deal. Yeah, you're probably right. Money's the only justification I can think of for his behaviour too. Nothing he does makes any sense in any other context. I guess it's just the times we're in where it's normal for people from completely different areas of the world to be more concerned about what will happen to the people of a country than the prime minister of that country. Any specific ruler will die of old age or stop ruling due to how their system is built up. The people in general will still be there afterwards, not the same individuals. Seems a reasonable view to care more about the people than whoever is at the top at that time.
I think you missunderstood.
He meant "we" (the people frome different countries all over the world) care more about what is happening to the UK than their own goverment
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On September 17 2019 16:21 Artisreal wrote:
Boris is positioning himself to swoop up the Brexit party vote and to demonise Corbyn as the second coming of Stalin at the same time and the English will swallow it!
It's the cubing of the circle.
Get a no deal Brexit.
Win the subsequent election.
Become a PM with a full fledged mandate.
(Break the Union)
I think he could swallow the Brexit party while having the parliament revoke article 50. He'd still win the election, and the union wouldn't break.
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On September 17 2019 08:13 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 06:54 Ben... wrote:On September 17 2019 06:36 Gorsameth wrote:On September 17 2019 05:42 Ben... wrote:
It sounds like Boris Johnson didn't have a very good day today. His working lunch with various EU figures ended in him abandoning a press conference due to protests then getting dunked on by the PM of Luxembourg. Juncker also confirmed that nothing has really been done negotiations-wise. I fail to see how any of it matters when Johnsons job in Brussels is to sabotage the extension that he is forced to ask for. He's not there to look good and get a deal. Then why be there at all? What does he have to gain? All this would do is piss off the EU members he's going to be negotiating with post-Brexit should his beloved no-deal Brexit go through. I don't see how this behaviour is either good for the UK economically or good for Johnson politically. If a no-deal Brexit happens and then the EU refuses to make any trade deals with Johnson because he pissed them off too much then the UK's completely screwed. It seems like there is absolutely no foresight to any actions he takes or anything he does. Your mistake is thinking Boris gives a shit about the UK economically or his own career politically. If either of those things mattered he wouldn't have touched Brexit with a 10 foot pole. Since he appears to push so hard for a no-deal at any cost he or people around him are probably positioned to earn a lot of money off of it. I don't see much else that explains his active pushing for a no-deal.
pretty sure he has a lot to gain politically honestly
he just wants to be pm, only reason he supported brexit
his biggest mistake was assuming the country would vote remain
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On September 17 2019 21:21 Zealos wrote:
his biggest mistake was assuming the country would vote remain
Pretty sure that was absolutely every UK politician's mistake. People tried to use it to their gain, completely failing to prepare for the event where people actually voted to leave. Everyone wanted to ride the propaganda train, no one wants to actually drive it.
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On September 17 2019 21:21 Zealos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 08:13 Gorsameth wrote:On September 17 2019 06:54 Ben... wrote:On September 17 2019 06:36 Gorsameth wrote:On September 17 2019 05:42 Ben... wrote:
It sounds like Boris Johnson didn't have a very good day today. His working lunch with various EU figures ended in him abandoning a press conference due to protests then getting dunked on by the PM of Luxembourg. Juncker also confirmed that nothing has really been done negotiations-wise. I fail to see how any of it matters when Johnsons job in Brussels is to sabotage the extension that he is forced to ask for. He's not there to look good and get a deal. Then why be there at all? What does he have to gain? All this would do is piss off the EU members he's going to be negotiating with post-Brexit should his beloved no-deal Brexit go through. I don't see how this behaviour is either good for the UK economically or good for Johnson politically. If a no-deal Brexit happens and then the EU refuses to make any trade deals with Johnson because he pissed them off too much then the UK's completely screwed. It seems like there is absolutely no foresight to any actions he takes or anything he does. Your mistake is thinking Boris gives a shit about the UK economically or his own career politically. If either of those things mattered he wouldn't have touched Brexit with a 10 foot pole. Since he appears to push so hard for a no-deal at any cost he or people around him are probably positioned to earn a lot of money off of it. I don't see much else that explains his active pushing for a no-deal. pretty sure he has a lot to gain politically honestly he just wants to be pm, only reason he supported brexit his biggest mistake was assuming the country would vote remain Being PM during Brexit is horrible politically because you will get 100% of the fallout from Brexit. That is why no one wanted to vote out May, because no one wants to be stuck with it and she was supposed to be the one to hold the blame. (The EU constantly giving extensions stopped this from working, since May wasn't going to let a no-deal Brexit happen)
If he wanted polical gains he would not have run for PM but let someone else do it so if they pull out of A50 he can pull the 'will of the people' card or if they Brexit he can go 'I would have gotten a better deal'.
The only options open for Boris now are to break all his promises of Brexit or be the PM that tanked the economy through a no-deal Brexit. Both very much look like political suicide.
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United States44381 Posts
On September 17 2019 21:23 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 21:21 Zealos wrote:
his biggest mistake was assuming the country would vote remain Pretty sure that was absolutely every UK politician's mistake. People tried to use it to their gain, completely failing to prepare for the event where people actually voted to leave. Everyone wanted to ride the propaganda train, no one wants to actually drive it.
This is the heart of the problem. “He who rides a tiger is afraid to dismount”.
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United States44381 Posts
On September 17 2019 21:38 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 21:21 Zealos wrote:On September 17 2019 08:13 Gorsameth wrote:On September 17 2019 06:54 Ben... wrote:On September 17 2019 06:36 Gorsameth wrote:On September 17 2019 05:42 Ben... wrote:
It sounds like Boris Johnson didn't have a very good day today. His working lunch with various EU figures ended in him abandoning a press conference due to protests then getting dunked on by the PM of Luxembourg. Juncker also confirmed that nothing has really been done negotiations-wise. I fail to see how any of it matters when Johnsons job in Brussels is to sabotage the extension that he is forced to ask for. He's not there to look good and get a deal. Then why be there at all? What does he have to gain? All this would do is piss off the EU members he's going to be negotiating with post-Brexit should his beloved no-deal Brexit go through. I don't see how this behaviour is either good for the UK economically or good for Johnson politically. If a no-deal Brexit happens and then the EU refuses to make any trade deals with Johnson because he pissed them off too much then the UK's completely screwed. It seems like there is absolutely no foresight to any actions he takes or anything he does. Your mistake is thinking Boris gives a shit about the UK economically or his own career politically. If either of those things mattered he wouldn't have touched Brexit with a 10 foot pole. Since he appears to push so hard for a no-deal at any cost he or people around him are probably positioned to earn a lot of money off of it. I don't see much else that explains his active pushing for a no-deal. pretty sure he has a lot to gain politically honestly he just wants to be pm, only reason he supported brexit his biggest mistake was assuming the country would vote remain Being PM during Brexit is horrible politically because you will get 100% of the fallout from Brexit. That is why no one wanted to vote out May, because no one wants to be stuck with it and she was supposed to be the one to hold the blame. (The EU constantly giving extensions stopped this from working, since May wasn't going to let a no-deal Brexit happen) If he wanted polical gains he would not have run for PM but let someone else do it so if they pull out of A50 he can pull the 'will of the people' card or if they Brexit he can go 'I would have gotten a better deal'. The only options open for Boris now are to break all his promises of Brexit or be the PM that tanked the economy through a no-deal Brexit. Both very much look like political suicide.
Boris was never going to be PM under normal circumstances. Too many powerful Tories hated him. It was this or nothing and he’s a narcissist who wanted to be in the history books.
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On September 17 2019 17:50 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 15:09 Yurie wrote:On September 17 2019 08:58 Ben... wrote:On September 17 2019 08:13 Gorsameth wrote:On September 17 2019 06:54 Ben... wrote:On September 17 2019 06:36 Gorsameth wrote:On September 17 2019 05:42 Ben... wrote:
It sounds like Boris Johnson didn't have a very good day today. His working lunch with various EU figures ended in him abandoning a press conference due to protests then getting dunked on by the PM of Luxembourg. Juncker also confirmed that nothing has really been done negotiations-wise. I fail to see how any of it matters when Johnsons job in Brussels is to sabotage the extension that he is forced to ask for. He's not there to look good and get a deal. Then why be there at all? What does he have to gain? All this would do is piss off the EU members he's going to be negotiating with post-Brexit should his beloved no-deal Brexit go through. I don't see how this behaviour is either good for the UK economically or good for Johnson politically. If a no-deal Brexit happens and then the EU refuses to make any trade deals with Johnson because he pissed them off too much then the UK's completely screwed. It seems like there is absolutely no foresight to any actions he takes or anything he does. Your mistake is thinking Boris gives a shit about the UK economically or his own career politically. If either of those things mattered he wouldn't have touched Brexit with a 10 foot pole. Since he appears to push so hard for a no-deal at any cost he or people around him are probably positioned to earn a lot of money off of it. I don't see much else that explains his active pushing for a no-deal. Yeah, you're probably right. Money's the only justification I can think of for his behaviour too. Nothing he does makes any sense in any other context. I guess it's just the times we're in where it's normal for people from completely different areas of the world to be more concerned about what will happen to the people of a country than the prime minister of that country. Any specific ruler will die of old age or stop ruling due to how their system is built up. The people in general will still be there afterwards, not the same individuals. Seems a reasonable view to care more about the people than whoever is at the top at that time. I think you missunderstood. He meant "we" (the people frome different countries all over the world) care more about what is happening to the UK than their own goverment Yes. Sorry, I should have been more clear I suppose.
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On September 17 2019 21:38 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 21:21 Zealos wrote:On September 17 2019 08:13 Gorsameth wrote:On September 17 2019 06:54 Ben... wrote:On September 17 2019 06:36 Gorsameth wrote:On September 17 2019 05:42 Ben... wrote:
It sounds like Boris Johnson didn't have a very good day today. His working lunch with various EU figures ended in him abandoning a press conference due to protests then getting dunked on by the PM of Luxembourg. Juncker also confirmed that nothing has really been done negotiations-wise. I fail to see how any of it matters when Johnsons job in Brussels is to sabotage the extension that he is forced to ask for. He's not there to look good and get a deal. Then why be there at all? What does he have to gain? All this would do is piss off the EU members he's going to be negotiating with post-Brexit should his beloved no-deal Brexit go through. I don't see how this behaviour is either good for the UK economically or good for Johnson politically. If a no-deal Brexit happens and then the EU refuses to make any trade deals with Johnson because he pissed them off too much then the UK's completely screwed. It seems like there is absolutely no foresight to any actions he takes or anything he does. Your mistake is thinking Boris gives a shit about the UK economically or his own career politically. If either of those things mattered he wouldn't have touched Brexit with a 10 foot pole. Since he appears to push so hard for a no-deal at any cost he or people around him are probably positioned to earn a lot of money off of it. I don't see much else that explains his active pushing for a no-deal. pretty sure he has a lot to gain politically honestly he just wants to be pm, only reason he supported brexit his biggest mistake was assuming the country would vote remain Being PM during Brexit is horrible politically because you will get 100% of the fallout from Brexit. That is why no one wanted to vote out May, because no one wants to be stuck with it and she was supposed to be the one to hold the blame. (The EU constantly giving extensions stopped this from working, since May wasn't going to let a no-deal Brexit happen) If he wanted polical gains he would not have run for PM but let someone else do it so if they pull out of A50 he can pull the 'will of the people' card or if they Brexit he can go 'I would have gotten a better deal'. The only options open for Boris now are to break all his promises of Brexit or be the PM that tanked the economy through a no-deal Brexit. Both very much look like political suicide.
This is key. He's in the same shoes as Alexis Tsipras in Greece circa June 2015 - a PM who ended up first tanking the country's economy before capitulating under logistical impossibility. And that was in a country whose national unity was not in the balance. And Tsipras is a trained, competent engineer who had a fairly brilliant economist backing him. Contrast with Johnson who is yet to grow both a brain and a backbone.
Some quotes to remember from Grexit-era just four years ago...
'At one point, Mr Tsipras had to endure a lecture from Miro Cerar, the Slovenian prime minister, to which Italian prime minister Matteo Renzi objected.'
'In the end, some bleary-eyed diplomats emerged unsure who had prevailed in the marathon session. But they seemed agreed as to who had suffered most. “They crucified Tsipras in there,” a senior eurozone official who had attended the summit remarked. “Crucified.” '
History certainly seems to be rhyming in this case...
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On September 18 2019 07:10 MyLovelyLurker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 21:38 Gorsameth wrote:On September 17 2019 21:21 Zealos wrote:On September 17 2019 08:13 Gorsameth wrote:On September 17 2019 06:54 Ben... wrote:On September 17 2019 06:36 Gorsameth wrote:On September 17 2019 05:42 Ben... wrote:
It sounds like Boris Johnson didn't have a very good day today. His working lunch with various EU figures ended in him abandoning a press conference due to protests then getting dunked on by the PM of Luxembourg. Juncker also confirmed that nothing has really been done negotiations-wise. I fail to see how any of it matters when Johnsons job in Brussels is to sabotage the extension that he is forced to ask for. He's not there to look good and get a deal. Then why be there at all? What does he have to gain? All this would do is piss off the EU members he's going to be negotiating with post-Brexit should his beloved no-deal Brexit go through. I don't see how this behaviour is either good for the UK economically or good for Johnson politically. If a no-deal Brexit happens and then the EU refuses to make any trade deals with Johnson because he pissed them off too much then the UK's completely screwed. It seems like there is absolutely no foresight to any actions he takes or anything he does. Your mistake is thinking Boris gives a shit about the UK economically or his own career politically. If either of those things mattered he wouldn't have touched Brexit with a 10 foot pole. Since he appears to push so hard for a no-deal at any cost he or people around him are probably positioned to earn a lot of money off of it. I don't see much else that explains his active pushing for a no-deal. pretty sure he has a lot to gain politically honestly he just wants to be pm, only reason he supported brexit his biggest mistake was assuming the country would vote remain Being PM during Brexit is horrible politically because you will get 100% of the fallout from Brexit. That is why no one wanted to vote out May, because no one wants to be stuck with it and she was supposed to be the one to hold the blame. (The EU constantly giving extensions stopped this from working, since May wasn't going to let a no-deal Brexit happen) If he wanted polical gains he would not have run for PM but let someone else do it so if they pull out of A50 he can pull the 'will of the people' card or if they Brexit he can go 'I would have gotten a better deal'. The only options open for Boris now are to break all his promises of Brexit or be the PM that tanked the economy through a no-deal Brexit. Both very much look like political suicide. This is key. He's in the same shoes as Alexis Tsipras in Greece circa June 2015 - a PM who ended up first tanking the country's economy before capitulating under logistical impossibility. And that was in a country whose national unity was not in the balance. And Tsipras is a trained, competent engineer who had a fairly brilliant economist backing him. Contrast with Johnson who is yet to grow both a brain and a backbone. Some quotes to remember from Grexit-era just four years ago... 'At one point, Mr Tsipras had to endure a lecture from Miro Cerar, the Slovenian prime minister, to which Italian prime minister Matteo Renzi objected.' 'In the end, some bleary-eyed diplomats emerged unsure who had prevailed in the marathon session. But they seemed agreed as to who had suffered most. “They crucified Tsipras in there,” a senior eurozone official who had attended the summit remarked. “Crucified.” ' History certainly seems to be rhyming in this case...
Of course - if you allow an economy like Greece into the Euro even though it clearly did not meet the financial conditions (budget deficit) to join in 2001 then you will have problems down the line.
Is it fair to complain after blatantly turning a blind eye? ECB interest rates negative since 2014 and dropped again last week, where to when there is a real crisis??
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On September 19 2019 17:45 Silvanel wrote:So Boris Johnson has 12 days to come up with some real proposition. I wonder what (if) he comes up with. This looks like endgame right now. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49749465 Oh well that's easy.
Nothing, or the impossible.
Do these people not understand that Boris doesn't want an extension? That saying he needs to do X or the UK is out just means he avoids doing X because he wants out?
If you want to pressure Boris to do something your much better off saying you'll grant to UK a 12 month extension so they can have proper elections.
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But our politicians still need to look good to our own citizens. We cant base our agenda on "screw Boris plans" and i dont know about You but i am already tired by this. On top of that i do not know if we can grant extension without UK asking for it, i suspect not.
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On September 19 2019 18:20 Silvanel wrote:
But our politicians still need to look good to our own citizens. We cant base our agenda on "screw Boris plans" and i dont know about You but i am already tired by this. On top of that i do not know if we can grant extension without UK asking for it, i suspect not. My position has been to not extend since the very first extension because the UK obviously isn't going to resolve this themselves. But the EU has sofar not shared that view, maybe this time will be different.
Boris is forced to ask for an extension he doesn't want because parliament voted that into law just prior to being prorogued.
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I was against extensions when it seemed like May wasn't going to do anything useful with them and just push desperately for her plan that parliament didn't want. Now that Boris definitely doesn't want an extension, but there's some minor hope that parliament will do something with it, I'm in favour of just giving them a 12-month extension, even if Boris shows up and says "formally I am obliged to ask for an extension, but please please please don't give it to us"...
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EPT
