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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2837 Posts
On April 13 2019 22:10 Neneu wrote: Determining if something is rape is very simple. Was there consent? Yes -> not rape. No -> it was rape. No need to obfuscate it. To bad you are not a judge then because cases based around consent are usually considered to be extremely difficult. Your expertise would be very welcome. :D | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24135 Posts
If the women think he abused them in some way they should have their day in court, but that's basically a 0% chance outcome as far as I've gathered. What did definitely happen though is Assange helped expose lots of things, not the least of which being the giddy obliteration of a group of people including 2 Reuters journalists by US forces in Iraq. We're left to only imagine the countless horrific stories we don't see because there isn't someone to blow the whistle. Assange has lots of problems (including being to cozy with white supremacists), but the thing they want to lock him up for really isn't the rape, or even the election stuff, it's exposing stuff like this imo. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8270 Posts
On April 13 2019 22:10 Neneu wrote: Determining if something is rape is very simple. Was there consent? Yes -> not rape. No -> it was rape. No need to obfuscate it. These extreme simplifications serve no purpose. Rape cases are extremely difficult. What happens when the girl gives no verbal cues? What happens when both parties are drunk and have bad communication? What about the cases where she doesn't report anything right away, is she a lier or was she scared? There's a reason most of these cases are thrown out, and it's not because the cops or the judge is heartless. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27206 Posts
On April 14 2019 02:00 Excludos wrote: These extreme simplifications serve no purpose. Rape cases are extremely difficult. What happens when the girl gives no verbal cues? What happens when both parties are drunk and have bad communication? What about the cases where she doesn't report anything right away, is she a lier or was she scared? There's a reason most of these cases are thrown out, and it's not because the cops or the judge is heartless. Wait, such things are complicated? :O One topic, in fact probably the single biggest one I actively avoid discussing outside of with very specific people, I tend to find myself either getting shredded by the more zealous MeToo crowd, or latent misogynists for approaching it in any kind of way that accounts for complexity. Outside of cases like Bill Cosby where the same kind of patterns were reported by many different people, independent of each other, most are pretty damn complicated, or if not complicated they're very difficult to actually prove. I don't think it's helpful at all for the wider discussion of sex and consent either to weaponise it in the political realm, as with Kavanaugh in the States, which I found very distasteful in terms of basically everything around it. | ||
KwarK
United States44190 Posts
On April 14 2019 02:56 Wombat_NI wrote: Wait, such things are complicated? :O One topic, in fact probably the single biggest one I actively avoid discussing outside of with very specific people, I tend to find myself either getting shredded by the more zealous MeToo crowd, or latent misogynists for approaching it in any kind of way that accounts for complexity. Outside of cases like Bill Cosby where the same kind of patterns were reported by many different people, independent of each other, most are pretty damn complicated, or if not complicated they're very difficult to actually prove. I don't think it's helpful at all for the wider discussion of sex and consent either to weaponise it in the political realm, as with Kavanaugh in the States, which I found very distasteful in terms of basically everything around it. Kavanaugh wasn’t a political attack, some woman saw the guy who assaulted her being considered for a position of power and said “hell no”, that’s all. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27206 Posts
On April 14 2019 03:27 KwarK wrote: Kavanaugh wasn’t a political attack, some woman saw the guy who assaulted her being considered for a position of power and said “hell no”, that’s all. She did. I said 'everything around it', rhetoric and discussion from everywhere bar the actual particulars of the accusation and whatnot, which I should have made clearer. I don't really see how it's avoidable doesn't make it less distasteful to me, not dissimilar to Assange really. I don't think many people really gave two shits about the particular women involved, they're just a means to nail someone either they dislike for political reasons, or as an example to deter errant sexual behaviour regardless of if the individual was guilty or not. Conversely I don't think many cared about the plausibility of the accusation at all, or due process or whatever they cited and dismissed it as a purely partisan move out of hand. I don't personally believe the Kavanaugh accusation came from anywhere other than the place you described, but everything from that point on just felt like a political football being kicked around with no particular regard for anything but that. | ||
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Longshank
1648 Posts
People like me dislike him for hiding from justice while his footmen made life a living hell for the alleged victims. Of course, his dealings with Russia, Trump and Clinton's emails didn't score him any bonus points along the way but if he's stuck in a political circus it's almost enirely his own doings. I agree with you on Kavanaugh though. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27206 Posts
On April 14 2019 06:08 Longshank wrote: Assange in his narcissistic hubris and his army of fan boys did everything in their power to make sure it became a political football. There were very few Europeans who disliked him for political reasons in 2010. Who were the people that used the accusations as a political move back then? What group? CIA? People like me dislike him for hiding from justice while his footmen made life a living hell for the alleged victims. Of course, his dealings with Russia, Trump and Clinton's emails didn't score him any bonus points along the way but if he's stuck in a political circus it's almost enirely his own doings. I agree with you on Kavanaugh though. I pretty much agree with you on Assange there too, both the personal conduct but also the footmen especially. Bit depressing really. If it’s not ‘I’ll pretend to care about women in this case, nothing to do with me thinking Assange is an enemy of the United States’ it’s ‘fuck him I don’t care if he ends up in American gulag if he doesn’t respect women.’ Plus the sizeable group of his fans who you’ve mentioned. The amount of people who seem concerned for actual justice in this instance is best case a silent majority, but more probably just the actual minority. On balance, and I tend to hold off until trials because all the pertinent evidence is out there, I lean towards Assange being guilty of some kind of criminal sexual offence as per Swedish law. Ideally in Wombat land he gets trialled and jailed and is insulated from ending up in American gulag, just to make that clear. As far as I’m aware there aren’t any actual mechanisms through which that can happen, at least that are existing in law or operate within certain political parameters. As you rightly point out this first popped up in 2010, which is quite a long time ago in terms of political climate, which people do tend to neglect. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9929 Posts
I'm glad they didn't hit the tube because that might have been a step too far for many people. People should start taking them seriously because I can see this growing fast. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47959207 Climate change activists glued themselves to a train and others are protesting outside Jeremy Corbyn's home in the third day of protests. Extinction Rebellion protesters have been blocking traffic at Marble Arch, Waterloo Bridge, Parliament Square and Oxford Circus since Monday. Earlier, three activists were glued to a Docklands Light Railway (DLR) train at Canary Wharf, causing minor delays. Four people have now glued themselves together at the Labour leader's home. Their tactics in the UK especially are really smart. They want to get arrested. Under austerity, our police and court systems are at breaking point already. There have been 400 arrests in the last few days alone with many people being charged with public order offences. This is a disaster for the government when they are already trying to divert even more resources to Brexit planning. This pretty much doubles as an anti-austerity protest. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4428 Posts
On April 14 2019 03:27 KwarK wrote: Kavanaugh wasn’t a political attack, some woman saw the guy who assaulted her being considered for a position of power and said “hell no”, that’s all. Baseless accusations never proven in a court of law. Brexit party now leading polling in EU elections - Yougov. LONDON (Reuters) - Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party will top next month’s election in Britain for the European parliament with 27 percent of the vote, far ahead of Prime Minister Theresa May’s Conservatives, according to a survey published on Wednesday. The Brexit Party is five percentage points ahead of Labour’s 22 percent, followed by the Conservatives on 15 percent and then the Green Party on 10 percent, the YouGov survey for The Evening Standard newspaper showed. https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-election/farages-brexit-party-to-top-eu-elections-in-britain-poll-idUKKCN1RT1HM Their tactics in the UK especially are really smart. Not really. UK emissions peaked in 1973.UK emissions down 38% since 1990. They're protesting in the wrong country.Maybe go to India or China. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
If you want to make a general climate change post or announcement, you don't need to quote someone and try to attach it; you can just create your own thread. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27206 Posts
Plus those who think too many legitimate protestors get arrested anyway and the line of what constitutes a public order offence can be drawn more tightly that it needs to be. Outright emissions are I imagine down quite a bit on a per capita basis, or that effects the comparison when you adjust for population growth. Which is probably quite a bit over 50 years I would imagine. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27206 Posts
www.google.co.uk Not sure where I stand on this, I used to think deplatforming actually just gave victim fuel and might be counterproductive to the aim of doing so in the first place. Tommy Robinson becoming a martyr being a case in point. What I’ve generally anecdotally observed is that in a fragmented internet news space, good information doesn’t get to challenge bad information directly or correct it. I was for Nick Griffin being on Question Time on the BBC back in the days, others disagreed. I felt him being crushed made him look terrible, especially to any possibly wavering in supporting someone like the BNP. Away from such scrutiny, it’s easier for such types to play the ‘I’m not a racist but’ card or whatever. Being on Facebook is not like that at all, it’s just them hosting your propaganda free of charge, to a potentially big audience. The only scrutiny they get at source are users who don’t share their politics arguing in the comments sections. As most are I imagine I feel uneasy at Facebook being the gatekeeper is this sense. | ||
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
He says he is innocent and has been stitched up by May. He ran Theresa's leadership campaign and was chief whip so he has potentially to cause a lot of trouble. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9929 Posts
Duh. The guy was always a slimeball and hated across the board by tory MPs. He had to go at some point, but this kind of suicidal move is just puzzling. | ||
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Garrl
Scotland1978 Posts
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5p5jd7XsAEyDRJ.jpg) "Theresa May says results message is: "Just get on and deliver Brexit." all parties (labour, conservatives, ukip) that are committed to brexit hemorrhaging seats to Lib Dems and Greens. The takeaway May comes up with? THIS MEANS WE HAVE TO DELIVER BREXIT. You cannot make this shit up. | ||
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Sr18
Netherlands1141 Posts
"Delivering" on Brexit is the most likely way for the Conservatives to stop hemorrhaging votes. | ||
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KwarK
United States44190 Posts
On May 04 2019 01:27 Sr18 wrote: It's actually not that strange, imo. The parties that want to follow through with Brexit are still getting the vast majority of votes. It's also likely that a decent chunk of people that didn't vote for the Conservatives this election that did the previous time, are more fed up with the process than with the idea of Brexit. "Delivering" on Brexit is the most likely way for the Conservatives to stop hemorrhaging votes. Not really. Neither major party is a “pro-Brexit” party. Both were, until very recently, institutionally pro-EU. Both have placed a “we respect the people’s decision” flag on their party but neither should be considered anti-EU. Also, due to FPTP, they will win most the votes and seats regardless of the policies. The result is very clear as the first poster said. A huge swing from the parties paying Brexit lip service to the ones pledging to cancel it. | ||
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Sr18
Netherlands1141 Posts
Secondly, "swings" are less important than the actual outcome. If you add up all the votes for remain parties, you won't get close to a majority. So while it's attractive to view this election result as a sign that the voters no longer want to leave, I (regrettably, mind you) think that that's a mistake. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
However, this can be seen as a reaction against brexit and the conservatives. Labour's change of -110 is small. The biggest change is that the Conservatives are being deserted for other councillors. Most have gone to Lib Dems and "Others", who have both doubled. Greens have essentially quadrupled, which makes sense as some local issues are environmental issues. If you want "the actual outcome", nothing has changed because they are just councillors. The result could be 100% Lib Dem or 100% UKIP and they will still have no real power other than narrative power. | ||
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