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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On June 16 2013 01:56 Christ the Redeemer wrote: First and foremost, abortion is a violation of life. HOWEVER, I think these are 2 valid points where abortion MAY BE allowed. There is no life until a certain point. Cannot kill what doesn't live, stupid argument. Also; ofcourse should be allowed. | ||
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xAdra
Singapore1858 Posts
On June 16 2013 18:21 Shakattak wrote: isn't fair to the fetus I will never understand why anyone owed a fetus anything. It's unable to function without the mother's body. It owes its mother everything. | ||
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OkStyX
Canada1199 Posts
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OkStyX
Canada1199 Posts
On June 16 2013 18:22 xAdra wrote: I will never understand why anyone owed a fetus anything. It's unable to function without the mother's body. It owes it's mother everything. I agree its up tot he mom , but if the baby can live outside the moms body at the point you want to abort it i think that is not up to the mother at that point. As even though its a baby and cannot think for itself it is still alive at that point and killing it is murder. | ||
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ChriS-X
Malaysia1374 Posts
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xAdra
Singapore1858 Posts
On June 16 2013 18:24 Shakattak wrote: I agree its up tot he mom , but if the baby can live outside the moms body at the point you want to abort it i think that is not up to the mother at that point. As even though its a baby and cannot think for itself it is still alive at that point and killing it is murder. I see what you mean. However, you should also put into consideration that the foetus would eventually develop into a child that has to grow up as an orphan. No offense meant to any orphans out there, but this does not bode well; the best hope for an orphan is for a caring couple who is able to take care of all his needs and requirements, without neglecting him in favor of their own kids (if any). This is not a healthy prospect, in my opinion. For me abortion saves two lives: both the mother from having to bear the stress of labor, and the child from a future that is unlikely to be of any good. | ||
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Colston
Norway279 Posts
On June 16 2013 18:21 xM(Z wrote: question: how much value does being unique has in this world, evolutionary wise?. foetuses are not people but foetuses are unique. does evolution accounts for that loss and compensates it somehow, or there is no need for that since environmental/cultural pressure would inevitably change/bend that uniqueness and make it average/common. if one takes into account that evolution happens in (small) steps, then that also means that evolution is/will be driven by uniqueness and not by commonness. Unique? No one is biologically unique, that's the cornerstone of medicine. Evolution will happen because you need to evolve to keep surviving, as in you've already lived a few years but the environment has changed, so your body had to adapt to survive. It won't happen in a fetus... The only kind of "unique" you will find in a human is personality. Personality is based on memory and experiences, a fetus has about the same recollection ability as a fish, it doesn't even remember yesterday. How are you able to be unique if you can't even remember yesterday? How would you make a difficult decision if you don't have any knowledge, memory and/or experiences to make your decisions from? | ||
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OkStyX
Canada1199 Posts
On June 16 2013 18:28 xAdra wrote: I see what you mean. However, you should also put into consideration that the foetus would eventually develop into a child that has to grow up as an orphan. No offense meant to any orphans out there, but this does not bode well; the best hope for an orphan is for a caring couple who is able to take care of all his needs and requirements, without neglecting him in favor of their own kids (if any). This is not a healthy prospect, in my opinion. For me abortion saves two lives: both the mother from having to bear the stress of labor, and the child from a future that is unlikely to be of any good. There are some women who raise children of their rapists that still love the child as a child should be loved. The child's future is not always impacted by how it was conceived . Who you are describing are people who are not fit to be parents in the first place , especially if they cannot look past the fact that its a baby that did nothing to you. If they want to hate on someone find the rapist and punish him not the baby . | ||
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Colston
Norway279 Posts
On June 16 2013 18:31 Shakattak wrote: There are some women who raise children of their rapists that still love the child as a child should be loved. The child's future is not always impacted by how it was conceived . Who you are describing are people who are not fit to be parents in the first place , especially if they cannot look past the fact that its a baby that did nothing to you. If they want to hate on someone find the rapist and punish him not the baby . Yeah, but aren't these the kind of mothers who would decide against abortion in the first place? We aren't saying the state should auto-abort every child concieved by rape, we are only saying they should have the option if they get raped. I know plenty of people with a weak mind who probably wouldn't even be able to look at the baby as it reminds them of the entire affair. If we are going to go on about human rights and all that jazz, can't we put at least a little faith in humans, and not only in God? God didn't sign any documents at the UN, humans did. | ||
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OkStyX
Canada1199 Posts
On June 16 2013 18:28 Colston wrote: Unique? No one is biologically unique, that's the cornerstone of medicine. Evolution will happen because you need to evolve to keep surviving, as in you've already lived a few years but the environment has changed, so your body had to adapt to survive. It won't happen in a fetus... The only kind of "unique" you will find in a human is personality. Personality is based on memory and experiences, a fetus has about the same recollection ability as a fish, it doesn't even remember yesterday. How are you able to be unique if you can't even remember yesterday? How would you make a difficult decision if you don't have any knowledge, memory and/or experiences to make your decisions from? Humans themselves are Bio-cultural , we have mini adaptations but for the most part culture allows us to survive where our biology doesn't . | ||
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OkStyX
Canada1199 Posts
On June 16 2013 18:36 Colston wrote: Yeah, but aren't these the kind of mothers who would decide against abortion in the first place? We aren't saying the state should auto-abort every child concieved by rape, we are only saying they should have the option if they get raped. I know plenty of people with a weak mind who probably wouldn't even be able to look at the baby as it reminds them of the entire affair. Yeah , and i do to know a lot of people like that. I know you guys aren't arguing that the state should auto abort i was playing devils advocate. I don't think abortion should be illegal at all personally I believe its good when used properly for the right reasons. It isn't something to be taken lightly . | ||
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Colston
Norway279 Posts
On June 16 2013 18:38 Shakattak wrote: Yeah , and i do to know a lot of people like that. I know you guys aren't arguing that the state should auto abort i was playing devils advocate. I don't think abortion should be illegal at all personally I believe its good when used properly for the right reasons. It isn't something to be taken lightly . Yeah, okay, that's fine. Then, good Sir, it turns out we are in complete agreement!  | ||
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Colston
Norway279 Posts
On June 16 2013 18:36 Shakattak wrote: Humans themselves are Bio-cultural , we have mini adaptations but for the most part culture allows us to survive where our biology doesn't . Yeah, but how does culture fit in with someone who hasn't even left their mothers womb yet? And I'm talking strictly pertaining to evolution now, not the way we look at unborn children and all that.. | ||
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OkStyX
Canada1199 Posts
On June 16 2013 18:39 Colston wrote: Yeah, okay, that's fine. Then, good Sir, it turns out we are in complete agreement! I just dislike when people use resources like abortion irresponsibly and when politicians make choices about someone's body , that irritates me too . | ||
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OkStyX
Canada1199 Posts
On June 16 2013 18:41 Colston wrote: Yeah, but how does culture fit in with someone who hasn't even left their mothers womb yet? It doesn't and i didn't say it did . Babies don't have a culture yet they learn it when they are born and subsequently raised. I am just saying that in response to the humans are not biologically that unique part of your argument .Not the latter. | ||
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Crushinator
Netherlands2138 Posts
On June 16 2013 18:14 xAdra wrote: Yes. It is fine. It has no emotions as of yet. Please don't bring up any "God" or "morality" bullshit with me- the mother also has rights, and if you're saying something that is still unable to develop emotions is more important than a real human being that can be rehabilitated and continue to contribute to the society, you must be joking. Why do you think a 9 month old foetus has no ''emotions'' (?), but a newborn baby does? Or do you also propose we legalise the killing of newborns? | ||
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Colston
Norway279 Posts
On June 16 2013 18:44 Shakattak wrote: It doesn't and i didn't say it did . Babies don't have a culture yet they learn it when they are born and subsequently raised. I am just saying that in response to the humans are not biologically that unique part of your argument .Not the latter. Heh, yeah. Well, I might have avoided to go into too much depth as medicine was never my strongest subject. When I wrote that post, I was mainly concerned people would start using mutations to try to prove me wrong.  | ||
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OkStyX
Canada1199 Posts
On June 16 2013 18:45 Crushinator wrote: Why do you think a 9 month old foetus has no ''emotions'' (?), but a newborn baby does? Or do you also propose we legalise the killing of newborns? Thats what i was arguing before i think , after a certain point the fetus is considered a person and its murder. So technically this argument shouldn't really be happening in this thread since if you didn't want the baby why wait till its illegal to abort it to do so ? | ||
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Acertos
France852 Posts
On June 16 2013 18:28 Colston wrote: Unique? No one is biologically unique, that's the cornerstone of medicine. Evolution will happen because you need to evolve to keep surviving, as in you've already lived a few years but the environment has changed, so your body had to adapt to survive. It won't happen in a fetus... The only kind of "unique" you will find in a human is personality. Personality is based on memory and experiences, a fetus has about the same recollection ability as a fish, it doesn't even remember yesterday. How are you able to be unique if you can't even remember yesterday? How would you make a difficult decision if you don't have any knowledge, memory and/or experiences to make your decisions from? Wtf are you saying every living being is unique else we would have the same face. Our own genes is the combination of the genes of our parents. Each person has 23 pairs of chromosomes and each chromosome within a pair is slightly different from the other. Now a parent give you 23 chromosomes the other 23 too. It makes 2^23=2x2x2x...x2, 23 times = 8388608 There are 8388608 different combinations of one's parents chromosomes, one of them is taken randomly (because one ovule has one combination of 23 chromosomes and one spermatozoa too and they meet randomly) and if you add to that the mutations and abnormalities that occur all the time during procreation and the creation of ovules and spermatozoa, every newborn, every living being differ from one another on the genetic level (or genotype) so also on the physical level (or macroscopic). Differences appear randomly and if some differences help a group of people get more chicks and to reproduce more then these differences will stay for other generations. Evolution happens all the time not only to keep surviving. At the beginning there were only bacterias they could survive already, they just evolved naturally and randomly just like every living being right now. Certain evolutions just help to survive and/or reproduce more. | ||
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OkStyX
Canada1199 Posts
On June 16 2013 18:49 Colston wrote: Heh, yeah. Well, I might have avoided to go into too much depth as anatomy was never my strongest subject. When I wrote that post, I was mainly concerned people would start using mutations to try to prove me wrong. Lots of mutations that happen during the fetal stage cause death in the fetus anyways so I hardly see why they would say they are relevant at all | ||
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