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US to criminalize taping of animal cruelty - Page 12

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farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18824 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-12 18:53:30
April 12 2013 18:52 GMT
#221
On April 13 2013 03:48 Nachtwind wrote:
Is there a law that says (sorry i´m no lawyer can´t express the correct words here):

We know you did something wrong and normaly you should get a punishment
but in the process you did something wrong you unrevealed a bigger crime
so you are free to go

?

Yes, if a defendant has information that prosecutors want badly enough, prosecutors may offer a plea bargain that reduces punishment or avoids it altogether. This depends highly on the local district attorney (prosecutor) though.

Edit: listen to the lawyer below
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
April 12 2013 18:52 GMT
#222
On April 13 2013 03:48 Nachtwind wrote:
Is there a law that says (sorry i´m no lawyer can´t express the correct words here):

We know you did something wrong and normaly you should get a punishment
but in the process you did something wrong you unrevealed a bigger crime
so you are free to go

?

no. but four principles (maybe more) are at play: (1) prosecutor discretion--they dont have to charge you with a crime if they dont feel its warranted; (2) immunity--prosecutor can give you immunity in exchange for testimony regarding the "bigger crime;" (3) plea agreements--they can give you a slap on the wrist (e.g., probation saying dont do it again); and (4) jury nullification--if the jury doesnt want to punish you then you are free to go. there may be others that dont pop up into my mind now.
acker
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2958 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-12 18:57:51
April 12 2013 18:55 GMT
#223
On April 13 2013 03:48 Nachtwind wrote:
Is there a law that says (sorry i´m no lawyer can´t express the correct words here):

We know you did something wrong and normaly you should get a punishment
but in the process you did something wrong you unrevealed a bigger crime
so you are free to go

?

There's no specific law for this. Application is largely arbitrary depending on the judge, prosecution, and jury.

For example, a lot of whistleblowers and investigative journalists in politics technically violate the Espionage Act in the course of their research and actions, but prosecutors seldom try to pull it on them.

There was a great case a year or two ago where a bunch of burglars broke into someone's home, found child pornography, and alerted the authorities. They weren't charged for obvious reasons.
hypercube
Profile Joined April 2010
Hungary2735 Posts
April 12 2013 19:06 GMT
#224
On April 13 2013 02:58 dAPhREAk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2013 02:19 hypercube wrote:
How about discriminating based on political views? Am I allowed to not hire someone who supports Ralph Nader, for example?

I know people here (as well as other places in Europe) tend not to ask women if they want to start a family because it would strengthen any gender discrimination case the applicant might start.

As for coming up with bogus reasons, I believe the standard practice is to send in applications that are similar or identical to the turned down applicant (except for the variable that's supposedly being discriminated against). So let's say a 50-year-old is turned down from a retail position with the reason that the work is too physically demanding. An anti-discrimination group might send a 25-year-old who is in similar physical condition, and if he gets the job they have a pretty good case for age discrimination.

political views are a state by state issue. some states allow such discrimination, some states don't. federal govt allows such discrimination.


Interesting, and a little unsettling. Does this mean they can ask you who you supported in the last election, and if you lie about it they can sue you?
"Sending people in rockets to other planets is a waste of money better spent on sending rockets into people on this planet."
Jonoman92
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States9103 Posts
April 12 2013 19:08 GMT
#225
On April 12 2013 20:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Man did I misunderstand this title. That's messed up.


Me too

Thought this was going to be a good thing when I first read the title.
Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
April 12 2013 19:10 GMT
#226
On April 13 2013 04:06 hypercube wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2013 02:58 dAPhREAk wrote:
On April 13 2013 02:19 hypercube wrote:
How about discriminating based on political views? Am I allowed to not hire someone who supports Ralph Nader, for example?

I know people here (as well as other places in Europe) tend not to ask women if they want to start a family because it would strengthen any gender discrimination case the applicant might start.

As for coming up with bogus reasons, I believe the standard practice is to send in applications that are similar or identical to the turned down applicant (except for the variable that's supposedly being discriminated against). So let's say a 50-year-old is turned down from a retail position with the reason that the work is too physically demanding. An anti-discrimination group might send a 25-year-old who is in similar physical condition, and if he gets the job they have a pretty good case for age discrimination.

political views are a state by state issue. some states allow such discrimination, some states don't. federal govt allows such discrimination.


Interesting, and a little unsettling. Does this mean they can ask you who you supported in the last election, and if you lie about it they can sue you?


I remember reading an article of a woman fired for voting for obama. Don't know how it ended, but lots of ceo's were threatening to fire people if they voted.
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
Alpino
Profile Joined June 2011
Brazil4390 Posts
April 12 2013 19:12 GMT
#227
I love when things get ridiculous to the point that people that wouldnt care about things end up caring and feeling something about them. Go vegan. It feels good. I lost 30 pounds of fat after going vegan while only doing my daily life exercises(a lot of walking at university and on the way to job)
20/11/2015 - never forget EE's Ember
Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
April 12 2013 19:23 GMT
#228
On April 13 2013 04:12 Alpino wrote:
I love when things get ridiculous to the point that people that wouldnt care about things end up caring and feeling something about them. Go vegan. It feels good. I lost 30 pounds of fat after going vegan while only doing my daily life exercises(a lot of walking at university and on the way to job)


this is not the most honest description of going veg/vegan

I know some that decided to go vegan and spent their days eating french fries and salad and they balooned since they didn't have the protiens to stay full and just gorged on carbs and salad.

A high protien diet (beans, tofu, etc...) + regular activity (walking around, not a desk job, etc...) + portion control (don't eat extra large fries, etc...) = weight loss.

The protein so you don't gorge.
The activity so you don't build up fat.
Portion control to prevent shenanigans.

but yes, most vegans (since they care about diet and have the self control to regulate food intake) will lose weight. But a strict "I'm not eating meat, I should lose weight" is a fallacy.
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
AeroGear
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada652 Posts
April 12 2013 19:31 GMT
#229
On April 13 2013 04:12 Alpino wrote:
I love when things get ridiculous to the point that people that wouldnt care about things end up caring and feeling something about them. Go vegan. It feels good. I lost 30 pounds of fat after going vegan while only doing my daily life exercises(a lot of walking at university and on the way to job)


Sorry but that only means you were fat/lazy and ate unhealthy? You can live and eat normally without doing much if any exercise and stay lean.

Driven by hate, fueled by rage
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
April 12 2013 19:33 GMT
#230
--- Nuked ---
Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
April 12 2013 19:39 GMT
#231
On April 13 2013 04:31 AeroGear wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2013 04:12 Alpino wrote:
I love when things get ridiculous to the point that people that wouldnt care about things end up caring and feeling something about them. Go vegan. It feels good. I lost 30 pounds of fat after going vegan while only doing my daily life exercises(a lot of walking at university and on the way to job)


Sorry but that only means you were fat/lazy and ate unhealthy? You can live and eat normally without doing much if any exercise and stay lean.



Eating Vegan is eating normally.

Whether your body gets its proteins from beans or it gets it from cows doesn't matter--you're body can't tell the difference once its been broken down.

And people who usually switch to Vegan usually have to become more aware of their eating habits. This awareness makes them better at portion control, dietary intake, etc... Which leads to losing weight.

So although staying away from meat is not the reason he lost weight--going Vegan *did* help him lose weight. Mostly because of better control.
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18824 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-12 19:49:12
April 12 2013 19:46 GMT
#232
On April 13 2013 04:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2013 04:31 AeroGear wrote:
On April 13 2013 04:12 Alpino wrote:
I love when things get ridiculous to the point that people that wouldnt care about things end up caring and feeling something about them. Go vegan. It feels good. I lost 30 pounds of fat after going vegan while only doing my daily life exercises(a lot of walking at university and on the way to job)


Sorry but that only means you were fat/lazy and ate unhealthy? You can live and eat normally without doing much if any exercise and stay lean.



Eating Vegan is eating normally.

Whether your body gets its proteins from beans or it gets it from cows doesn't matter--you're body can't tell the difference once its been broken down.

And people who usually switch to Vegan usually have to become more aware of their eating habits. This awareness makes them better at portion control, dietary intake, etc... Which leads to losing weight.

So although staying away from meat is not the reason he lost weight--going Vegan *did* help him lose weight. Mostly because of better control.

We should probably return to the topic at hand, but this is actually not quite true. Vegetable proteins and meat proteins are fundamentally different in terms of amino acid composition; furthermore, bioavailability along with a number of other qualities vary dramatically between the two as well. I am not suggesting that one cannot eat healthily on a vegan or vegetarian diet, merely that the quality of the food is going to be different than that of a carnivorous diet.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
kaykaykay
Profile Joined July 2012
Singapore637 Posts
April 12 2013 19:59 GMT
#233
well, all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
Starve the ego, feed the soul.
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
April 12 2013 20:20 GMT
#234
On April 13 2013 04:06 hypercube wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2013 02:58 dAPhREAk wrote:
On April 13 2013 02:19 hypercube wrote:
How about discriminating based on political views? Am I allowed to not hire someone who supports Ralph Nader, for example?

I know people here (as well as other places in Europe) tend not to ask women if they want to start a family because it would strengthen any gender discrimination case the applicant might start.

As for coming up with bogus reasons, I believe the standard practice is to send in applications that are similar or identical to the turned down applicant (except for the variable that's supposedly being discriminated against). So let's say a 50-year-old is turned down from a retail position with the reason that the work is too physically demanding. An anti-discrimination group might send a 25-year-old who is in similar physical condition, and if he gets the job they have a pretty good case for age discrimination.

political views are a state by state issue. some states allow such discrimination, some states don't. federal govt allows such discrimination.


Interesting, and a little unsettling. Does this mean they can ask you who you supported in the last election, and if you lie about it they can sue you?

if you lie about anything "material" on an employment application then yes they can sue you. it is simple fraud. most likely they will just fire you though. there are limitations on what information you can request on an employment application though.
sailorferret
Profile Joined July 2011
United States66 Posts
April 13 2013 18:48 GMT
#235
On April 13 2013 04:46 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2013 04:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On April 13 2013 04:31 AeroGear wrote:
On April 13 2013 04:12 Alpino wrote:
I love when things get ridiculous to the point that people that wouldnt care about things end up caring and feeling something about them. Go vegan. It feels good. I lost 30 pounds of fat after going vegan while only doing my daily life exercises(a lot of walking at university and on the way to job)


Sorry but that only means you were fat/lazy and ate unhealthy? You can live and eat normally without doing much if any exercise and stay lean.



Eating Vegan is eating normally.

Whether your body gets its proteins from beans or it gets it from cows doesn't matter--you're body can't tell the difference once its been broken down.

And people who usually switch to Vegan usually have to become more aware of their eating habits. This awareness makes them better at portion control, dietary intake, etc... Which leads to losing weight.

So although staying away from meat is not the reason he lost weight--going Vegan *did* help him lose weight. Mostly because of better control.

We should probably return to the topic at hand, but this is actually not quite true. Vegetable proteins and meat proteins are fundamentally different in terms of amino acid composition; furthermore, bioavailability along with a number of other qualities vary dramatically between the two as well. I am not suggesting that one cannot eat healthily on a vegan or vegetarian diet, merely that the quality of the food is going to be different than that of a carnivorous diet.


It is healthier to live a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle than one that consumes flesh, not simply different. Anyone who disagrees should read The China Study, which is the most comprehensive study done on flesh consumption to date. You should also be aware that there's a long line of bodybuilders, NFL stars, models, and so on who live very healthy and fit lives on vegetarian and vegan diets. This isn't even taking into account the fact that most people who consume flesh do so in a very unhealthy way or the fact that those studies that conclude flesh eating is healthy also note that people should limit their consumption to a few times a week at most--which is not what the majority of Americans do. This is also to say nothing as to the ethics of flesh consumption. Any doubt on it being unethical I urge you to watch this video before commenting.

Stop Ag Gag Laws from Passing - Please sign and spread the word - http://wh.gov/M6yq - #AgGagBad
Free Stuff for Searching the Internet - http://www.swagbucks.com/refer/sailorferrets
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18824 Posts
April 13 2013 18:58 GMT
#236
On April 14 2013 03:48 sailorferret wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2013 04:46 farvacola wrote:
On April 13 2013 04:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On April 13 2013 04:31 AeroGear wrote:
On April 13 2013 04:12 Alpino wrote:
I love when things get ridiculous to the point that people that wouldnt care about things end up caring and feeling something about them. Go vegan. It feels good. I lost 30 pounds of fat after going vegan while only doing my daily life exercises(a lot of walking at university and on the way to job)


Sorry but that only means you were fat/lazy and ate unhealthy? You can live and eat normally without doing much if any exercise and stay lean.



Eating Vegan is eating normally.

Whether your body gets its proteins from beans or it gets it from cows doesn't matter--you're body can't tell the difference once its been broken down.

And people who usually switch to Vegan usually have to become more aware of their eating habits. This awareness makes them better at portion control, dietary intake, etc... Which leads to losing weight.

So although staying away from meat is not the reason he lost weight--going Vegan *did* help him lose weight. Mostly because of better control.

We should probably return to the topic at hand, but this is actually not quite true. Vegetable proteins and meat proteins are fundamentally different in terms of amino acid composition; furthermore, bioavailability along with a number of other qualities vary dramatically between the two as well. I am not suggesting that one cannot eat healthily on a vegan or vegetarian diet, merely that the quality of the food is going to be different than that of a carnivorous diet.


It is healthier to live a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle than one that consumes flesh, not simply different. Anyone who disagrees should read The China Study, which is the most comprehensive study done on flesh consumption to date. You should also be aware that there's a long line of bodybuilders, NFL stars, models, and so on who live very healthy and fit lives on vegetarian and vegan diets. This isn't even taking into account the fact that most people who consume flesh do so in a very unhealthy way or the fact that those studies that conclude flesh eating is healthy also note that people should limit their consumption to a few times a week at most--which is not what the majority of Americans do. This is also to say nothing as to the ethics of flesh consumption. Any doubt on it being unethical I urge you to watch this video before commenting.

Stop Ag Gag Laws from Passing - Please sign and spread the word - http://wh.gov/M6yq - #AgGagBad

Sorry, but in the realm of "good science", one should not need to buy some book on Amazon in order to access the information. Furthermore, the notion that a single study or piece of information is enough to justify saying "It is healthier to live a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle than one that consumes flesh." when there also exist literally hundreds of studies and pieces of information that say differently is silly.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
sailorferret
Profile Joined July 2011
United States66 Posts
April 13 2013 19:21 GMT
#237
On April 14 2013 03:58 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2013 03:48 sailorferret wrote:
On April 13 2013 04:46 farvacola wrote:
On April 13 2013 04:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On April 13 2013 04:31 AeroGear wrote:
On April 13 2013 04:12 Alpino wrote:
I love when things get ridiculous to the point that people that wouldnt care about things end up caring and feeling something about them. Go vegan. It feels good. I lost 30 pounds of fat after going vegan while only doing my daily life exercises(a lot of walking at university and on the way to job)


Sorry but that only means you were fat/lazy and ate unhealthy? You can live and eat normally without doing much if any exercise and stay lean.



Eating Vegan is eating normally.

Whether your body gets its proteins from beans or it gets it from cows doesn't matter--you're body can't tell the difference once its been broken down.

And people who usually switch to Vegan usually have to become more aware of their eating habits. This awareness makes them better at portion control, dietary intake, etc... Which leads to losing weight.

So although staying away from meat is not the reason he lost weight--going Vegan *did* help him lose weight. Mostly because of better control.

We should probably return to the topic at hand, but this is actually not quite true. Vegetable proteins and meat proteins are fundamentally different in terms of amino acid composition; furthermore, bioavailability along with a number of other qualities vary dramatically between the two as well. I am not suggesting that one cannot eat healthily on a vegan or vegetarian diet, merely that the quality of the food is going to be different than that of a carnivorous diet.


It is healthier to live a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle than one that consumes flesh, not simply different. Anyone who disagrees should read The China Study, which is the most comprehensive study done on flesh consumption to date. You should also be aware that there's a long line of bodybuilders, NFL stars, models, and so on who live very healthy and fit lives on vegetarian and vegan diets. This isn't even taking into account the fact that most people who consume flesh do so in a very unhealthy way or the fact that those studies that conclude flesh eating is healthy also note that people should limit their consumption to a few times a week at most--which is not what the majority of Americans do. This is also to say nothing as to the ethics of flesh consumption. Any doubt on it being unethical I urge you to watch this video before commenting.

Stop Ag Gag Laws from Passing - Please sign and spread the word - http://wh.gov/M6yq - #AgGagBad

Sorry, but in the realm of "good science", one should not need to buy some book on Amazon in order to access the information. Furthermore, the notion that a single study or piece of information is enough to justify saying "It is healthier to live a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle than one that consumes flesh." when there also exist literally hundreds of studies and pieces of information that say differently is silly.


Sorry for providing a link to a book that would require someone to read more than a blog entry. That books sites tons of figures studies, etc and is way more comprehensive than anything you can find on the internet.

Here's some lower quality sites-

Someone who grew up on a dairy farm eating flesh, who now does nutritional research - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444184704577587174077811182.html

Here's a collection of information -
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060414012755.htm

And two more links -
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0512-03.htm
http://www.vegsource.com/news/2011/06/study-vegetarian-diets-healthier-in-every-way-than-diets-with-meat.html

But, again, buy the book (or go to a library) since it's more comprehensive, more conclusive, less biased, and better than almost anything else out there.

Stop Ag Gag Laws from Passing - Please sign and spread the word - http://wh.gov/M6yq - #AgGagBad
Free Stuff for Searching the Internet - http://www.swagbucks.com/refer/sailorferrets
peekn
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States1152 Posts
April 13 2013 19:24 GMT
#238
*Sigh* Another piece of legislation getting slammed through by big business... I'm very much so against this bill I don't think that it is right to not allow people to know how their food gets made. I'm a big advocate of free range / organic foods after watching Food INC. Super Size Me, etc. More people should know about how their food gets made, and this bill restricts that, not a good time in my book.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18824 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-13 19:37:15
April 13 2013 19:36 GMT
#239
On April 14 2013 04:21 sailorferret wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2013 03:58 farvacola wrote:
On April 14 2013 03:48 sailorferret wrote:
On April 13 2013 04:46 farvacola wrote:
On April 13 2013 04:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On April 13 2013 04:31 AeroGear wrote:
On April 13 2013 04:12 Alpino wrote:
I love when things get ridiculous to the point that people that wouldnt care about things end up caring and feeling something about them. Go vegan. It feels good. I lost 30 pounds of fat after going vegan while only doing my daily life exercises(a lot of walking at university and on the way to job)


Sorry but that only means you were fat/lazy and ate unhealthy? You can live and eat normally without doing much if any exercise and stay lean.



Eating Vegan is eating normally.

Whether your body gets its proteins from beans or it gets it from cows doesn't matter--you're body can't tell the difference once its been broken down.

And people who usually switch to Vegan usually have to become more aware of their eating habits. This awareness makes them better at portion control, dietary intake, etc... Which leads to losing weight.

So although staying away from meat is not the reason he lost weight--going Vegan *did* help him lose weight. Mostly because of better control.

We should probably return to the topic at hand, but this is actually not quite true. Vegetable proteins and meat proteins are fundamentally different in terms of amino acid composition; furthermore, bioavailability along with a number of other qualities vary dramatically between the two as well. I am not suggesting that one cannot eat healthily on a vegan or vegetarian diet, merely that the quality of the food is going to be different than that of a carnivorous diet.


It is healthier to live a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle than one that consumes flesh, not simply different. Anyone who disagrees should read The China Study, which is the most comprehensive study done on flesh consumption to date. You should also be aware that there's a long line of bodybuilders, NFL stars, models, and so on who live very healthy and fit lives on vegetarian and vegan diets. This isn't even taking into account the fact that most people who consume flesh do so in a very unhealthy way or the fact that those studies that conclude flesh eating is healthy also note that people should limit their consumption to a few times a week at most--which is not what the majority of Americans do. This is also to say nothing as to the ethics of flesh consumption. Any doubt on it being unethical I urge you to watch this video before commenting.

Stop Ag Gag Laws from Passing - Please sign and spread the word - http://wh.gov/M6yq - #AgGagBad

Sorry, but in the realm of "good science", one should not need to buy some book on Amazon in order to access the information. Furthermore, the notion that a single study or piece of information is enough to justify saying "It is healthier to live a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle than one that consumes flesh." when there also exist literally hundreds of studies and pieces of information that say differently is silly.


Sorry for providing a link to a book that would require someone to read more than a blog entry. That books sites tons of figures studies, etc and is way more comprehensive than anything you can find on the internet.

Here's some lower quality sites-

Someone who grew up on a dairy farm eating flesh, who now does nutritional research - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444184704577587174077811182.html

Here's a collection of information -
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060414012755.htm

And two more links -
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0512-03.htm
http://www.vegsource.com/news/2011/06/study-vegetarian-diets-healthier-in-every-way-than-diets-with-meat.html

But, again, buy the book (or go to a library) since it's more comprehensive, more conclusive, less biased, and better than almost anything else out there.

Stop Ag Gag Laws from Passing - Please sign and spread the word - http://wh.gov/M6yq - #AgGagBad

No, stop hocking your pseudo-science and derailing the thread please. You can throw hyperlinks at the forum until you are blue in the face, but none of them will do the footwork of proving that vegetarian diets are inherently superior to carnivorous ones for you.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444184704577587174077811182.html

The above link makes it incredibly obvious that proving vegetarianism the superior diet is practically impossible; it provides information that supports both sides of the debate.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060414012755.htm

The above is in reference to the environmental effects of meat eating; while certainly interesting, it in no way proves meat unhealthy to eat (I mean come on, the article is being published in the journal Earth Interactions lol).

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0512-03.htm
http://www.vegsource.com/news/2011/06/study-vegetarian-diets-healthier-in-every-way-than-diets-with-meat.html

These two barely even deserve a comment. One strange article with conflicting dates that references a small study on adolescent diets in Minnesota does not say much, whereas the url http://www.vegsource.com/news/2011/06/study-vegetarian-diets-healthier-in-every-way-than-diets-with-meat.html speaks for itself.

As to your insistence that we read "The China Study", I'm afraid that just isn't going to cut it. With only a little bit of searching around, I've found heaps of criticism leveled towards the work, mostly in regards to Campbell's biased interpretation of science that does not say what he'd like it to. Since you suggested we read a book, here, read this.
+ Show Spoiler +
The China Study is an attempt by Campbell to promote veganism as a dietary lifestyle through scientific research. Unfortunately the scientific basis of the book if full off misinterpretations, omissions of conflicting data, and conclusions and statements based on unreferenced facts (possibly not facts?). I began reading the book with an open mind but from the outset it was clear that Campbell had one mantra - animal based food is bad, plant based food is good, and this is repeated over and over throughout the book.

Let's first look at Campbells own laboratory studies. In the presence of Aflatoxin, a carcinogen, rats fed a diet of 20% casein, a milk protein, develop cancer while those that are fed 5% casein do not. Okay, I am willing to accept that study on face value. How much casein causes cancer then? In a dose response study Campbell found that 10% casein doesn't contribute to cancer development, but above 10% does. Again, I am happy to accept that. A diet made up of 10% casein contributes to cancer development. How does that apply to humans? After describing a study about nitrosamines and how the dose wasn't relevant to the human population (page 45), Campbell has done the exact same thing with his Casein study. Casein is a milk protein. In 100ml of whole milk, the macro nutrient content is 5.2g of carbohydrate, 3.25g of fat and 3.2g of protein that equals 11.65g of nutrients, the rest of the 100ml mostly made up of water. Milk protein is 80% casein, 80% of 3.2g is 2.56, so out of that 11.65 total, 2.56 is casein which equals 22% of the total. Oh no! Milk will cause us to develop cancer! But don't worry, as long as we get the casein down to 10% we will be safe. How do we do that? Eat 13.95g of anything that is not casein. Pretty easy to do. So as long as we are not living of more than about 50% milk, then we are safe from cancer as a result of the casein in the milk. Do you know anybody that has that much milk? And that is ignoring the fact that casein extracted from milk for the purposes of his study is not exactly a healthy, natural source of protein purely as a result of the chemical extraction.

But hang on, what if other proteins contribute to the development of cancer? Campbell thought that so he investigated gluten and soy and found that neither of them had the same impact as casein. That clearly shows that not all proteins contribute to cancer, and having tested 2 plant proteins and 1 of the many animal proteins, we must therefore conclude that ALL animal proteins lead to cancer and ALL plant proteins do not. Does anybody else see a problem with this? All that we can conclude from these studies is a diet made up of above 10% casein, may contribute to the development of cancer and a diet below 10% casein does not contribute. That is all. Other proteins, both animal and plant, like gluten and soy, may behave differently and unless you have a milk fetish or you are downing large amounts of casein based protein powder (like the rats in the study) then the study is largely irrelevant to your diet or your health.

Before moving on I have one more observation; To test the impact of decreased protein from 20 to 5% they replaced some of the protein with carbohydrates to keep the calories the same. Commenting on the addition of carbohydrate he says "the extra starch and glucose in the low-protein diets could not have been responsible for the lower development of foci because these carbohydrates, when tested alone, actually increase foci development" (page 351). So carbohydrates, which come from plants, increase the development of foci? PLANTS CAUSE CANCER TOO?? Could this be something worth elaborating on or including in a conclusion? No, better not, lets keep that brief mention of carbohydrates causing cancer stuck away in an appendix in case anybody gets the wrong idea.

It is apparent from his casein studies that Campbell has come to the conclusion that "20% casein causes cancer, therefore all animal protein is bad". It is with this mindset that he then set out on the giant study of the China Project, a commendable effort that could have had many beneficial outcomes. Unfortunately, possibly as a result of his previous work, Campbell has gone in with blinders on, and all he can see is animal protein and the negative health outcomes associated with its' consumption. The project itself and the original publication arising from it produced a vast amount of data that provides some interesting insight into health and disease. However, what Campbell has shown in the China Study is but a fraction of the information to be gained from the project. It would require a whole new study (unbiased this time preferably) to go into all the beneficial knowledge we could gain, but I will touch on a few things here.

Campbells main conclusion in the China Study is that all animal protein contributes to disease and all plant protein prevents disease. In the original project, they performed a diet survey over 3 days, analyzing all the food consumed per person in that time. Guess how many of the measured mortality factors (about 50 of them), were associated with animal protein consumption measured from the diet survey. Zero. Zero. Zero. Okay, so Campbell can't have come to his conclusions from there. They also had study participants fill out a questionnaire that included one question on meat consumption. Guess how many mortality factors correlated with that? One type of cancer (naso-pharyngeal or something I think it was). An example of some of the many other inclusions in the questionnaire are canola oil and potatoes (not sweet potatoes) which both had a number of positive associations with the development of different types of cancer. Apparently that wasn't worth mentioning in the China Study. Speaking of oil, Campbell makes reference to %fat in the diet being a good indicator of animal protein consumption, despite the fact they clearly use enough canola oil (a vegetable fat) to measure in the study.

So a 3 day food consumption survey shows no association between animal protein and mortality and a questionnaire shows an association between meat and one of many cancers measured. From where can Campbell come to his evil animal protein conclusion then? They also took plasma samples and measured them for blood biomarkers of animal protein consumption. These biomarkers, listed in the references for chapter 4 #39 are "plasma copper, urea nitrogen, estradiol, prolactin, testosterone and, inversely, sex hormone binding globulin, each of which has been known to be associated with animal protein intake from previous studies". No mention of these previous studies of course. So the associations with most of those biomarkers and mortality rates are dubious, and the only biomarker statistically associated with cancer mortality is copper. Many places show food sources of copper and I went to [...] find the best sources of copper. The best? Calfs liver. The next 40 best? All from plants. 42 and 43 are shrimp and venison, the only other animal source in the list on the site. So for copper to be a biomarker of animal consumption then the participants in this study must be eating a lot of calf liver and avoiding a lot of vegetables. Sound realistic?

So from an association between blood biomarkers, the only real one being copper, and cancer mortality, Campbell has concluded that animal protein gives you cancer, despite the fact that the majority of dietary sources of copper are actually from plant sources. So that basically leaves Campbell with no actual evidence between animal consumption and mortality as a result of the original China project.

A final note. In his eating right section Campbell says supplements are bad (principle 2). Principle 3 then says "there are virtually no nutrients in animal-based foods that are not better provided by plants"(page 230), but over the page he says plants are not a good source of vitamin B12 and you probably should take a supplement. What? Then in the how to eat section on page 242 he says "the findings from the China Study indicate that the lower percentage of animal-based foods that are consumed, the greater the health benefits-even when the percentage declines from 10% to 0% of calories". As I've clearly shown, the China Study does not show this, and his own study with Casein proved that there was no benefit in eating less then 10% of your diet from Casein.

Clearly Campbell is a vegetarian, as he states in the book, and promoting vegetarianism is his main goal, which he tries to back up with scientific research that actually disagrees with him, but that he has interpreted in a way that makes it agree with him. Bad science, bad book and definitely bad recommendations as far as health. While I'm not saying go out and live on animal products alone, I don't think you should stop eating them, especially because they are tasty, but even if only for a natural source of vitamin B12.

If you actually read all of that, it becomes plain to see that Campbell's conclusion that science most certainly points to vegetarianism being the superior diet is actually nonsense fueled by an agenda.

If you'd like to continue with this, PM me. No need to continue with this in this thread.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Roman
Profile Joined November 2002
United States2595 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-13 19:38:05
April 13 2013 19:37 GMT
#240
dAPhREAk I can't believe you fed a troll for over 3 pages.... you make some good points but please don't respond to nonsensical posts. I understand the point of the bill as someone has explained it, the animal farms are pissed off at the sensationalist motives of the undercover video takers and not at the fact that they are exposing illegality. There is so much sensationalism going both ways its hard to parse fact from fiction here. The flow of information that concerns that population at large (such as the state of the nations food source) should not be censored except under the most extreme conditions thus I think bills like this should be illegal in principle. This is the same type of journalism that ended horrid working and food safety conditions in the past and has had a very beneficial effect on society as a whole so it should be protected.
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