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On April 14 2013 06:34 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 06:32 Tewks44 wrote:On April 14 2013 06:24 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 14 2013 06:20 r.Evo wrote:On April 14 2013 06:15 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 14 2013 06:11 r.Evo wrote:On April 14 2013 05:56 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 14 2013 05:00 Capped wrote:On April 12 2013 03:41 plated.rawr wrote: What? They're making taping of animal mistreatment illegal, but the actual treatment is a-ok?
What the motherfuck. AFK, I need to hit something, or someone. Im with this guy, fuck, we can even hit eachother. Goddamn fucked up is all this is, God damn, retards on this planet, get the fuck out of america's law system kthxbye and take your forgien friends in europe, asia and wherever else with you too. Every day i hear about some strange shit going on in the world. Lets let the animals punish them and make it illegal not to film them. (I am in no way slandering a country in my post, retards exist everywhere ^_^) the first post was retarded, but you ended up making it even more retarded. "animal abuse" remains illegal. you guys don't need to punch things, but you do need to learn to use your brains. That still means said law is fundamentally pro animal abuse which makes it ridiculous. thats an absurd assertion. the federal govt has laws that regulate these types of things and agencies that oversee the laws; there are most likely state laws and regulators as well. this is just an attempt to stop vigilantes who want to do it themselves outside the bounds of the law. Alright, let's look at it step by step: -Person X abuses animals. -Person Y videotapes X abusing animals with the intent of making it public. -Legislator steps in and makes law that forbids Y from videotaping X abusing animals. ---> The legislation just made a "pro animal abuse law". Feel free to substitute "animal" with "children" to make it even more obvious. What happened here is that the documentary of an illegal act gets outlawed. You're right, "ridiculous" or "retarded" are wrong descriptions. "Batshit insane" sounds more up to the task. why do people keep ignoring the fact that "Person Y" is breaking the law as it exists before the ag-gag law... this doesnt legalize Person X's acts, it criminalizes Person Y's already illegal acts.... also, why dont you try replacing Person X's illegal acts with legal acts. still think Person Y's activities are okay? What law is person Y breaking if he just video tapes the abuse taking place? Let's assume that he's not breaking any laws unrelated to the taping such as trespassing on the farm. fraud and contract law appear to be the primary violations, but there may be additional ones based on the person's actions (e.g., breaking and entering). And that's fine. This is about pro-property and pro-contract laws.
If I break into your house, that's illegal. If I suspect you're abusing children, break into your house and install a video camera, that's still illegal. It's good that these things are illegal. If I then successfully videotape you in the middle of the act after illegally entering your house and illegally installed a video camera I might theoretically even still get charged with those illegal acts.
However, there is no position at all to argue that the act of videotaping abuse should be illegalized.
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On April 14 2013 06:38 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 06:30 r.Evo wrote:On April 14 2013 06:24 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 14 2013 06:20 r.Evo wrote:On April 14 2013 06:15 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 14 2013 06:11 r.Evo wrote:On April 14 2013 05:56 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 14 2013 05:00 Capped wrote:On April 12 2013 03:41 plated.rawr wrote: What? They're making taping of animal mistreatment illegal, but the actual treatment is a-ok?
What the motherfuck. AFK, I need to hit something, or someone. Im with this guy, fuck, we can even hit eachother. Goddamn fucked up is all this is, God damn, retards on this planet, get the fuck out of america's law system kthxbye and take your forgien friends in europe, asia and wherever else with you too. Every day i hear about some strange shit going on in the world. Lets let the animals punish them and make it illegal not to film them. (I am in no way slandering a country in my post, retards exist everywhere ^_^) the first post was retarded, but you ended up making it even more retarded. "animal abuse" remains illegal. you guys don't need to punch things, but you do need to learn to use your brains. That still means said law is fundamentally pro animal abuse which makes it ridiculous. thats an absurd assertion. the federal govt has laws that regulate these types of things and agencies that oversee the laws; there are most likely state laws and regulators as well. this is just an attempt to stop vigilantes who want to do it themselves outside the bounds of the law. Alright, let's look at it step by step: -Person X abuses animals. -Person Y videotapes X abusing animals with the intent of making it public. -Legislator steps in and makes law that forbids Y from videotaping X abusing animals. ---> The legislation just made a "pro animal abuse law". Feel free to substitute "animal" with "children" to make it even more obvious. What happened here is that the documentary of an illegal act gets outlawed. You're right, "ridiculous" or "retarded" are wrong descriptions. "Batshit insane" sounds more up to the task. why do people keep ignoring the fact that "Person Y" is breaking the law as it exists before the ag-gag law... this doesnt legalize Person X's acts, it criminalizes Person Y's already illegal acts.... also, why dont you try replacing Person X's illegal acts with legal acts. still think Person Y's activities are okay? Charge them with trespassing, charge them with fraud. Because that's what someone who illegally videotapes someone under those conditions in any other industry gets charged with. We don't criminalize someone videotaping a cop that beats someone - we salute him and aim to punish the cop. If person X's acts were legal? No one cares about a video showing a cop that arrests someone legitimately without any incident on either side. Did Y still trespass or commit fraud to get into the position to make the tape? Most likely. Feel free to charge them with it. so, you agree that they should be charged for their criminal act, but you dont like that the ag-gag law charges them with a criminal act? i don't get it. we don't criminalize someone videotaping a cop that breaks the law because the videotaper isnt breaking the law to videotape the illegal activity. is this distinction that abstract? or, are you saying that they should be charged with the criminal act, but the videotape should be usable in criminal proceedings? if that is the case then you should approve this law, because the videotapes have to be turned over to the authorities apparently. the problem with the animal movement is that they break the law to obtain video (sometimes) and then defame the farms, etc. by airing the tapes when the activities on the tape are completely legal (and a lot of the time sanctioned by the federal gov't). i am sure you dont care if they get defamed, but they damn care and thats why they are pushing for these laws. Oh, they care about defamation? First of all that's a civil matter, not a criminal. Now, if it's possible to "defame" someone because of what he's allowed to do legally makes people not buy his products then we have an entirely different issue. Truth as a defense isn't all that viable anymore if said truth makes people not buy your products.
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On April 14 2013 06:39 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 06:34 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 14 2013 06:32 Tewks44 wrote:On April 14 2013 06:24 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 14 2013 06:20 r.Evo wrote:On April 14 2013 06:15 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 14 2013 06:11 r.Evo wrote:On April 14 2013 05:56 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 14 2013 05:00 Capped wrote:On April 12 2013 03:41 plated.rawr wrote: What? They're making taping of animal mistreatment illegal, but the actual treatment is a-ok?
What the motherfuck. AFK, I need to hit something, or someone. Im with this guy, fuck, we can even hit eachother. Goddamn fucked up is all this is, God damn, retards on this planet, get the fuck out of america's law system kthxbye and take your forgien friends in europe, asia and wherever else with you too. Every day i hear about some strange shit going on in the world. Lets let the animals punish them and make it illegal not to film them. (I am in no way slandering a country in my post, retards exist everywhere ^_^) the first post was retarded, but you ended up making it even more retarded. "animal abuse" remains illegal. you guys don't need to punch things, but you do need to learn to use your brains. That still means said law is fundamentally pro animal abuse which makes it ridiculous. thats an absurd assertion. the federal govt has laws that regulate these types of things and agencies that oversee the laws; there are most likely state laws and regulators as well. this is just an attempt to stop vigilantes who want to do it themselves outside the bounds of the law. Alright, let's look at it step by step: -Person X abuses animals. -Person Y videotapes X abusing animals with the intent of making it public. -Legislator steps in and makes law that forbids Y from videotaping X abusing animals. ---> The legislation just made a "pro animal abuse law". Feel free to substitute "animal" with "children" to make it even more obvious. What happened here is that the documentary of an illegal act gets outlawed. You're right, "ridiculous" or "retarded" are wrong descriptions. "Batshit insane" sounds more up to the task. why do people keep ignoring the fact that "Person Y" is breaking the law as it exists before the ag-gag law... this doesnt legalize Person X's acts, it criminalizes Person Y's already illegal acts.... also, why dont you try replacing Person X's illegal acts with legal acts. still think Person Y's activities are okay? What law is person Y breaking if he just video tapes the abuse taking place? Let's assume that he's not breaking any laws unrelated to the taping such as trespassing on the farm. fraud and contract law appear to be the primary violations, but there may be additional ones based on the person's actions (e.g., breaking and entering). And that's fine. This is about pro-property and pro-contract laws. If I break into your house, that's illegal. If I suspect you're abusing children, break into your house and install a video camera, that's still illegal. It's good that these things are illegal. If I then successfully videotape you in the middle of the act after illegally entering your house and illegally installed a video camera I might theoretically even still get charged with those illegal acts. However, there is no position at all to argue that the act of videotaping abuse should be illegalized. have you bothered to even read one of these so-called ag-gag laws?
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On April 14 2013 06:44 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 06:39 r.Evo wrote:On April 14 2013 06:34 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 14 2013 06:32 Tewks44 wrote:On April 14 2013 06:24 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 14 2013 06:20 r.Evo wrote:On April 14 2013 06:15 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 14 2013 06:11 r.Evo wrote:On April 14 2013 05:56 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 14 2013 05:00 Capped wrote: [quote]
Im with this guy, fuck, we can even hit eachother.
Goddamn fucked up is all this is,
God damn, retards on this planet, get the fuck out of america's law system kthxbye and take your forgien friends in europe, asia and wherever else with you too.
Every day i hear about some strange shit going on in the world.
Lets let the animals punish them and make it illegal not to film them.
(I am in no way slandering a country in my post, retards exist everywhere ^_^) the first post was retarded, but you ended up making it even more retarded. "animal abuse" remains illegal. you guys don't need to punch things, but you do need to learn to use your brains. That still means said law is fundamentally pro animal abuse which makes it ridiculous. thats an absurd assertion. the federal govt has laws that regulate these types of things and agencies that oversee the laws; there are most likely state laws and regulators as well. this is just an attempt to stop vigilantes who want to do it themselves outside the bounds of the law. Alright, let's look at it step by step: -Person X abuses animals. -Person Y videotapes X abusing animals with the intent of making it public. -Legislator steps in and makes law that forbids Y from videotaping X abusing animals. ---> The legislation just made a "pro animal abuse law". Feel free to substitute "animal" with "children" to make it even more obvious. What happened here is that the documentary of an illegal act gets outlawed. You're right, "ridiculous" or "retarded" are wrong descriptions. "Batshit insane" sounds more up to the task. why do people keep ignoring the fact that "Person Y" is breaking the law as it exists before the ag-gag law... this doesnt legalize Person X's acts, it criminalizes Person Y's already illegal acts.... also, why dont you try replacing Person X's illegal acts with legal acts. still think Person Y's activities are okay? What law is person Y breaking if he just video tapes the abuse taking place? Let's assume that he's not breaking any laws unrelated to the taping such as trespassing on the farm. fraud and contract law appear to be the primary violations, but there may be additional ones based on the person's actions (e.g., breaking and entering). And that's fine. This is about pro-property and pro-contract laws. If I break into your house, that's illegal. If I suspect you're abusing children, break into your house and install a video camera, that's still illegal. It's good that these things are illegal. If I then successfully videotape you in the middle of the act after illegally entering your house and illegally installed a video camera I might theoretically even still get charged with those illegal acts. However, there is no position at all to argue that the act of videotaping abuse should be illegalized. have you bothered to even read one of these so-called ag-gag laws? Is this description incorrect?
But a dozen or so state legislatures have had a different reaction: They proposed or enacted bills that would make it illegal to covertly videotape livestock farms, or apply for a job at one without disclosing ties to animal rights groups. They have also drafted measures to require such videos to be given to the authorities almost immediately (...)
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here is an "ag-gag law" for you guys to educate yourselves before speaking:
(b) A person commits the offense of agricultural facility fraud if the person, 19 with the intent to commit an act that the person knows is not authorized by the 20 facility’s owner: 1 (1) knowingly obtains access to an agricultural facility by false 2 pretenses; or 3 (2) makes a knowingly false statement or representation as part of an 4 application to be employed at an agricultural facility. 5 (c) A person who violates subsection (b) of this section shall be subject to 6 an administrative penalty of up to $1,000.00 in accordance with section 15 of 7 this title.
http://www.leg.state.vt.us/docs/2014/bills/Intro/S-162.pdf
edit: thats all it does in VT. nothing more, nothing less.
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Why do you link me an example of a law that exclusively talks about "obtaining access" or "make a knowingly false statement to be employed" when I'm talking about "covertly videotaping" and "having to disclose ties to animal groups"?
If you can show me an example of an actual law talking about the latter to convince me the article in the OP is bullshit and no one is trying to illegalize those things I'd actually be grateful.
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Got one. Not sure if it's the real deal because the source isn't super legit. Maybe someone who knows the right pages can find an official source.
15 Sec. 9. NEW SECTION. 717A.2A Animal facility interference. 16 1. A person is guilty of animal facility interference, if 17 the person acts without the consent of the owner of an animal 18 facility to willfully do any of the following: 19 a. (1) Produce a record which reproduces an image or sound 20 occurring at the animal facility as follows: 21 (a) The record must be created by the person while at the 22 animal facility. 23 (b) The record must be a reproduction of a visual or audio 24 experience occurring at the animal facility, including but not 25 limited to a photographic or audio medium. 26 (2) Possess or distribute a record which produces an image 27 or sound occurring at the animal facility which was produced as 28 provided in subparagraph (1). 29 (3) Subparagraphs (1) and (2) do not apply to an animal 30 shelter, a boarding kennel, a commercial kennel, a pet shop, or 31 a pound, all as defined in section 162.2.
http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stat_pdf/stusia2011hf589.pdf
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On April 14 2013 06:58 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 06:53 r.Evo wrote: Why do you link me an example of a law that exclusively talks about "obtaining access" or "make a knowingly false statement to be employed" when I'm talking about "covertly videotaping" and "having to disclose ties to animal groups"?
If you can show me an example of an actual law talking about the latter to convince me the article in the OP is bullshit and no one is trying to illegalize those things I'd actually be grateful. thats a so-called ag-gag law. this is what everyone is upset about. i cant link you to the made up law you are debating about. What you linked sounds fine, honestly. It's a bit weird that it's specifically about the animal industry since I imagine the things mentioned are illegal in other areas too, but whatever. Check above for what is most likely referred to in the OP.
OKAY ILL WAIT. =P
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On April 14 2013 06:57 r.Evo wrote:Got one. Not sure if it's the real deal because the source isn't super legit. Maybe someone who knows the right pages can find an official source. Show nested quote +15 Sec. 9. NEW SECTION. 717A.2A Animal facility interference. 16 1. A person is guilty of animal facility interference, if 17 the person acts without the consent of the owner of an animal 18 facility to willfully do any of the following: 19 a. (1) Produce a record which reproduces an image or sound 20 occurring at the animal facility as follows: 21 (a) The record must be created by the person while at the 22 animal facility. 23 (b) The record must be a reproduction of a visual or audio 24 experience occurring at the animal facility, including but not 25 limited to a photographic or audio medium. 26 (2) Possess or distribute a record which produces an image 27 or sound occurring at the animal facility which was produced as 28 provided in subparagraph (1). 29 (3) Subparagraphs (1) and (2) do not apply to an animal 30 shelter, a boarding kennel, a commercial kennel, a pet shop, or 31 a pound, all as defined in section 162.2.
http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stat_pdf/stusia2011hf589.pdf here is a more official source, but its essentially the same.
http://coolice.legis.iowa.gov/linc/84/external/HF589_Reprinted.pdf
the law makes it illegal to trespass on property to take video.
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Bolded ones seem to be voted on soon, the ones in Iowa/Utah already passed. http://animalvisuals.org/projects/data/investigations
New York: Oppose Senate Bill 5172, and take action here Missouri: Oppose House Bill 1860 Minnesota: Oppose Senate Bill 1118 and House File 1369 (Defeated) Iowa: Oppose House File 589, and take action here Update 3/3/12: this law has passed and has been signed by Iowa Governor Terry Branstad. Nebraska: Oppose LB915 (Defeated) Indiana: Oppose Senate Bill 0184 (Defeated) Utah: Oppose House Bill 187 Update: this law passed and was signed into law by Governor Gary Herbert
Here's the Utah one: http://le.utah.gov/~2012/bills/hbillint/hb0187s03.pdf
(2) A person is guilty of agricultural operation interference if the person: (...) (c) (i) applies for employment at an agricultural operation with the intent to record an 40 image of, or sound from, the agricultural operation; 41 (ii) knows, at the time that the person accepts employment at the agricultural operation, 42 that the owner of the agricultural operation prohibits the employee from recording an image of, 43 or sound from, the agricultural operation; and 44 (iii) while employed at, and while present on, the agricultural operation, records an 45 image of, or sound from, the agricultural operation; or 46 (d) without consent from the owner of the operation or the owner's agent, knowingly or 47 intentionally records an image of, or sound from, an agricultural operation while the person is 48 committing criminal trespass, as described in Section 76-6-206, on the agricultural operation.
So, yes. Those are the made up laws I'm debating about.
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they are all the same. if you trespass or enter premises by fraudulent representations to take video, you are breaking the law.
edit: are you intentionally leaving out the parts where it says "without consent?"
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The Iowa bill specifically outlaws videotaping (and possessing/distributing) in an animal facility without the owners consent. The Utah bill outlaws applying with the intent to make a record (debatable, sounds reasonable) and recording while being employed and while trespassing.
Actually this is even worse than what I talked about with you earlier. It's not just about covertly going in there and videotaping it. This bill includes someone who works there, witnesses animal cruelty and seeks to make video footage as proof.
Edit: Ctrl+f "without consent" or "without the consent". It helps highlight it!
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On April 14 2013 07:11 r.Evo wrote: The Iowa bill specifically outlaws videotaping (and possessing/distributing) in an animal facility without the owners consent. The Utah bill outlaws applying with the intent to make a record (debatable, sounds reasonable) and recording while being employed and while trespassing.
Actually this is even worse than what I talked about with you earlier. It's not just about covertly going in there and videotaping it. This bill includes someone who works there, witnesses animal cruelty and seeks to make video footage as proof.
Edit: Ctrl+f "without consent" or "without the consent". It helps highlight it! i am not sure what you are upset about. if you work there, witness animal cruelty and seek to make video footage of it as proof, you are protected by whistleblowing laws. i have seen nothing that changes the whistleblowing laws.
as for the laws themselves, trespass is illegal, fraud is illegal, etc. these new laws are specific to ag, but there are already existing laws making them illegal so they are just making it specific to ag.
edit: and you can stop harping on the made up laws point, because i have yet to see a law that makes the mere videotaping of animal abuse illegal. they make actions in violation of premise owner's consent unlawful, not the mere act of videotaping of animal abuse.
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I wish there was gruesome/graphic info warning on this posr, I feel sick after reading some of that. Sick people.
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On April 14 2013 07:17 dAPhREAk wrote: i am not sure what you are upset about. if you work there, witness animal cruelty and seek to make video footage of it as proof, you are protected by whistleblowing laws. i have seen nothing that changes the whistleblowing laws.
as for the laws themselves, trespass is illegal, fraud is illegal, etc. these new laws are specific to ag, but there are already existing laws making them illegal so they are just making it specific to ag.
edit: and you can stop harping on the made up laws point, because i have yet to see a law that makes the mere videotaping of animal abuse illegal. they make actions in violation of premise owner's consent unlawful, not the mere act of videotaping of animal abuse. dAPhREAk, I'm still not sure if you're trolling or not.
Firstly, which whistleblower law governs the actions related to this state law?
Secondly, where exactly did previous trespass laws omit agribusiness from protection from trespassers? If they did not, why is trespass to document animal cruelty so heinous that it should be given extra-special punishment on top of the normal penalties for normal trespass?
On April 14 2013 07:17 dAPhREAk wrote: i am not sure what you are upset about. if you work there, witness animal cruelty and seek to make video footage of it as proof, you are protected by whistleblowing laws. i have seen nothing that changes the whistleblowing laws. This is illegal under the passed law unless the videotaping is authorized by the facility owner. Unless you're saying that whistleblower laws supercede this law, in which case you'd have to explain why someone spent so much time passing a contradictory law.
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As a Missourian, I'm sick to my stomach right now....
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On April 14 2013 04:36 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 04:21 sailorferret wrote:On April 14 2013 03:58 farvacola wrote:On April 14 2013 03:48 sailorferret wrote:On April 13 2013 04:46 farvacola wrote:On April 13 2013 04:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 13 2013 04:31 AeroGear wrote:On April 13 2013 04:12 Alpino wrote: I love when things get ridiculous to the point that people that wouldnt care about things end up caring and feeling something about them. Go vegan. It feels good. I lost 30 pounds of fat after going vegan while only doing my daily life exercises(a lot of walking at university and on the way to job) Sorry but that only means you were fat/lazy and ate unhealthy? You can live and eat normally without doing much if any exercise and stay lean. Eating Vegan is eating normally. Whether your body gets its proteins from beans or it gets it from cows doesn't matter--you're body can't tell the difference once its been broken down. And people who usually switch to Vegan usually have to become more aware of their eating habits. This awareness makes them better at portion control, dietary intake, etc... Which leads to losing weight. So although staying away from meat is not the reason he lost weight--going Vegan *did* help him lose weight. Mostly because of better control. We should probably return to the topic at hand, but this is actually not quite true. Vegetable proteins and meat proteins are fundamentally different in terms of amino acid composition; furthermore, bioavailability along with a number of other qualities vary dramatically between the two as well. I am not suggesting that one cannot eat healthily on a vegan or vegetarian diet, merely that the quality of the food is going to be different than that of a carnivorous diet. It is healthier to live a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle than one that consumes flesh, not simply different. Anyone who disagrees should read The China Study, which is the most comprehensive study done on flesh consumption to date. You should also be aware that there's a long line of bodybuilders, NFL stars, models, and so on who live very healthy and fit lives on vegetarian and vegan diets. This isn't even taking into account the fact that most people who consume flesh do so in a very unhealthy way or the fact that those studies that conclude flesh eating is healthy also note that people should limit their consumption to a few times a week at most--which is not what the majority of Americans do. This is also to say nothing as to the ethics of flesh consumption. Any doubt on it being unethical I urge you to watch this video before commenting. Stop Ag Gag Laws from Passing - Please sign and spread the word - http://wh.gov/M6yq - #AgGagBad Sorry, but in the realm of "good science", one should not need to buy some book on Amazon in order to access the information. Furthermore, the notion that a single study or piece of information is enough to justify saying "It is healthier to live a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle than one that consumes flesh." when there also exist literally hundreds of studies and pieces of information that say differently is silly. Sorry for providing a link to a book that would require someone to read more than a blog entry. That books sites tons of figures studies, etc and is way more comprehensive than anything you can find on the internet. Here's some lower quality sites- Someone who grew up on a dairy farm eating flesh, who now does nutritional research - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444184704577587174077811182.htmlHere's a collection of information - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060414012755.htmAnd two more links - http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0512-03.htmhttp://www.vegsource.com/news/2011/06/study-vegetarian-diets-healthier-in-every-way-than-diets-with-meat.htmlBut, again, buy the book (or go to a library) since it's more comprehensive, more conclusive, less biased, and better than almost anything else out there. Stop Ag Gag Laws from Passing - Please sign and spread the word - http://wh.gov/M6yq - #AgGagBad No, stop hocking your pseudo-science and derailing the thread please. You can throw hyperlinks at the forum until you are blue in the face, but none of them will do the footwork of proving that vegetarian diets are inherently superior to carnivorous ones for you. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444184704577587174077811182.htmlThe above link makes it incredibly obvious that proving vegetarianism the superior diet is practically impossible; it provides information that supports both sides of the debate. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060414012755.htmThe above is in reference to the environmental effects of meat eating; while certainly interesting, it in no way proves meat unhealthy to eat (I mean come on, the article is being published in the journal Earth Interactions lol). http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0512-03.htmhttp://www.vegsource.com/news/2011/06/study-vegetarian-diets-healthier-in-every-way-than-diets-with-meat.htmlThese two barely even deserve a comment. One strange article with conflicting dates that references a small study on adolescent diets in Minnesota does not say much, whereas the url http://www.vegsource.com/news/2011/06/study-vegetarian-diets-healthier-in-every-way-than-diets-with-meat.html speaks for itself. As to your insistence that we read "The China Study", I'm afraid that just isn't going to cut it. With only a little bit of searching around, I've found heaps of criticism leveled towards the work, mostly in regards to Campbell's biased interpretation of science that does not say what he'd like it to. Since you suggested we read a book, here, read this. + Show Spoiler +The China Study is an attempt by Campbell to promote veganism as a dietary lifestyle through scientific research. Unfortunately the scientific basis of the book if full off misinterpretations, omissions of conflicting data, and conclusions and statements based on unreferenced facts (possibly not facts?). I began reading the book with an open mind but from the outset it was clear that Campbell had one mantra - animal based food is bad, plant based food is good, and this is repeated over and over throughout the book.
Let's first look at Campbells own laboratory studies. In the presence of Aflatoxin, a carcinogen, rats fed a diet of 20% casein, a milk protein, develop cancer while those that are fed 5% casein do not. Okay, I am willing to accept that study on face value. How much casein causes cancer then? In a dose response study Campbell found that 10% casein doesn't contribute to cancer development, but above 10% does. Again, I am happy to accept that. A diet made up of 10% casein contributes to cancer development. How does that apply to humans? After describing a study about nitrosamines and how the dose wasn't relevant to the human population (page 45), Campbell has done the exact same thing with his Casein study. Casein is a milk protein. In 100ml of whole milk, the macro nutrient content is 5.2g of carbohydrate, 3.25g of fat and 3.2g of protein that equals 11.65g of nutrients, the rest of the 100ml mostly made up of water. Milk protein is 80% casein, 80% of 3.2g is 2.56, so out of that 11.65 total, 2.56 is casein which equals 22% of the total. Oh no! Milk will cause us to develop cancer! But don't worry, as long as we get the casein down to 10% we will be safe. How do we do that? Eat 13.95g of anything that is not casein. Pretty easy to do. So as long as we are not living of more than about 50% milk, then we are safe from cancer as a result of the casein in the milk. Do you know anybody that has that much milk? And that is ignoring the fact that casein extracted from milk for the purposes of his study is not exactly a healthy, natural source of protein purely as a result of the chemical extraction.
But hang on, what if other proteins contribute to the development of cancer? Campbell thought that so he investigated gluten and soy and found that neither of them had the same impact as casein. That clearly shows that not all proteins contribute to cancer, and having tested 2 plant proteins and 1 of the many animal proteins, we must therefore conclude that ALL animal proteins lead to cancer and ALL plant proteins do not. Does anybody else see a problem with this? All that we can conclude from these studies is a diet made up of above 10% casein, may contribute to the development of cancer and a diet below 10% casein does not contribute. That is all. Other proteins, both animal and plant, like gluten and soy, may behave differently and unless you have a milk fetish or you are downing large amounts of casein based protein powder (like the rats in the study) then the study is largely irrelevant to your diet or your health.
Before moving on I have one more observation; To test the impact of decreased protein from 20 to 5% they replaced some of the protein with carbohydrates to keep the calories the same. Commenting on the addition of carbohydrate he says "the extra starch and glucose in the low-protein diets could not have been responsible for the lower development of foci because these carbohydrates, when tested alone, actually increase foci development" (page 351). So carbohydrates, which come from plants, increase the development of foci? PLANTS CAUSE CANCER TOO?? Could this be something worth elaborating on or including in a conclusion? No, better not, lets keep that brief mention of carbohydrates causing cancer stuck away in an appendix in case anybody gets the wrong idea.
It is apparent from his casein studies that Campbell has come to the conclusion that "20% casein causes cancer, therefore all animal protein is bad". It is with this mindset that he then set out on the giant study of the China Project, a commendable effort that could have had many beneficial outcomes. Unfortunately, possibly as a result of his previous work, Campbell has gone in with blinders on, and all he can see is animal protein and the negative health outcomes associated with its' consumption. The project itself and the original publication arising from it produced a vast amount of data that provides some interesting insight into health and disease. However, what Campbell has shown in the China Study is but a fraction of the information to be gained from the project. It would require a whole new study (unbiased this time preferably) to go into all the beneficial knowledge we could gain, but I will touch on a few things here.
Campbells main conclusion in the China Study is that all animal protein contributes to disease and all plant protein prevents disease. In the original project, they performed a diet survey over 3 days, analyzing all the food consumed per person in that time. Guess how many of the measured mortality factors (about 50 of them), were associated with animal protein consumption measured from the diet survey. Zero. Zero. Zero. Okay, so Campbell can't have come to his conclusions from there. They also had study participants fill out a questionnaire that included one question on meat consumption. Guess how many mortality factors correlated with that? One type of cancer (naso-pharyngeal or something I think it was). An example of some of the many other inclusions in the questionnaire are canola oil and potatoes (not sweet potatoes) which both had a number of positive associations with the development of different types of cancer. Apparently that wasn't worth mentioning in the China Study. Speaking of oil, Campbell makes reference to %fat in the diet being a good indicator of animal protein consumption, despite the fact they clearly use enough canola oil (a vegetable fat) to measure in the study.
So a 3 day food consumption survey shows no association between animal protein and mortality and a questionnaire shows an association between meat and one of many cancers measured. From where can Campbell come to his evil animal protein conclusion then? They also took plasma samples and measured them for blood biomarkers of animal protein consumption. These biomarkers, listed in the references for chapter 4 #39 are "plasma copper, urea nitrogen, estradiol, prolactin, testosterone and, inversely, sex hormone binding globulin, each of which has been known to be associated with animal protein intake from previous studies". No mention of these previous studies of course. So the associations with most of those biomarkers and mortality rates are dubious, and the only biomarker statistically associated with cancer mortality is copper. Many places show food sources of copper and I went to [...] find the best sources of copper. The best? Calfs liver. The next 40 best? All from plants. 42 and 43 are shrimp and venison, the only other animal source in the list on the site. So for copper to be a biomarker of animal consumption then the participants in this study must be eating a lot of calf liver and avoiding a lot of vegetables. Sound realistic?
So from an association between blood biomarkers, the only real one being copper, and cancer mortality, Campbell has concluded that animal protein gives you cancer, despite the fact that the majority of dietary sources of copper are actually from plant sources. So that basically leaves Campbell with no actual evidence between animal consumption and mortality as a result of the original China project.
A final note. In his eating right section Campbell says supplements are bad (principle 2). Principle 3 then says "there are virtually no nutrients in animal-based foods that are not better provided by plants"(page 230), but over the page he says plants are not a good source of vitamin B12 and you probably should take a supplement. What? Then in the how to eat section on page 242 he says "the findings from the China Study indicate that the lower percentage of animal-based foods that are consumed, the greater the health benefits-even when the percentage declines from 10% to 0% of calories". As I've clearly shown, the China Study does not show this, and his own study with Casein proved that there was no benefit in eating less then 10% of your diet from Casein.
Clearly Campbell is a vegetarian, as he states in the book, and promoting vegetarianism is his main goal, which he tries to back up with scientific research that actually disagrees with him, but that he has interpreted in a way that makes it agree with him. Bad science, bad book and definitely bad recommendations as far as health. While I'm not saying go out and live on animal products alone, I don't think you should stop eating them, especially because they are tasty, but even if only for a natural source of vitamin B12. If you actually read all of that, it becomes plain to see that Campbell's conclusion that science most certainly points to vegetarianism being the superior diet is actually nonsense fueled by an agenda. If you'd like to continue with this, PM me. No need to continue with this in this thread.
Yes, a lot of people have hated on The China Study.--In fact, the meat industry has spent a lot of money discrediting it. However, it is just as easy to find praise for the book as well if you search the internet. Beyond that, it's assigned in at least three different med schools as reading on how to promote preventative health care. Even if that wasn't true, you have no evidence showing that flesh eating is healthy.--Certainly not flesh eating to the extent that Americans eat or the types that they typically eat. Your quoted attacks on The China Study are easily answered. I won't waste my time with it since you can clearly search the internet as well as the next person, but for example B12 is readily available. Many many people are vegetarian and vegan and live long and happy lives.
REGARDLESS- All of this is secondary to the point of this thread which has to do with ag gag laws. The immorality of factory farms is undeniable and allowing the industry to cover it up is absurd. The claims by others that it is already illegal and should remain so is likewise absurd because
1) If I torture someone in my house and you film it, you are free to release that info and turn it into the police. The same holds true with animal abuse in the home... even if I didn't invite you in.
2) There are no other groups outside of whistle blowers and animal rights groups willing to release this information. Preventing them from doing so keeps consumers ignorant of the suffering animals and workers ensure within factory farms.
3) Torturing is worse than the violation of corporate privacy, especially when that privacy protects unethical actions and keeps consumers in the dark on practices that, when exposed, are almost universally rejected.
4) Ag gag laws are part in parcel with a long line of anti-animal rights legislation that threaten to criminalize those bringing justice instead of those inflicting pain.
Weigh the impacts. Keep Ag Gag laws off the books... sign the petition and spread the word: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/criminalize-ag-gag-laws/KQWSvsKr #AgGagBad
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On April 14 2013 07:17 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 07:11 r.Evo wrote: The Iowa bill specifically outlaws videotaping (and possessing/distributing) in an animal facility without the owners consent. The Utah bill outlaws applying with the intent to make a record (debatable, sounds reasonable) and recording while being employed and while trespassing.
Actually this is even worse than what I talked about with you earlier. It's not just about covertly going in there and videotaping it. This bill includes someone who works there, witnesses animal cruelty and seeks to make video footage as proof.
Edit: Ctrl+f "without consent" or "without the consent". It helps highlight it! edit: and you can stop harping on the made up laws point, because i have yet to see a law that makes the mere videotaping of animal abuse illegal. they make actions in violation of premise owner's consent unlawful, not the mere act of videotaping of animal abuse. So if I outlaw videotaping children in a private home under any circumstance I'm not outlawing the videotaping of child abuse at the same time?
You admittedly talked about an entirely different law, you admittedly had no idea that the laws referred to in the OP even existed (which suggests you completely ignored the article in the OP talking about these specific laws), you then get to see those laws you called "made up" five minutes earlier and your response is "Oh, well, that doesn't change anything".
These laws are made to oppress the recording of any sound and any video in animal facilities. That's what's outrageous. These laws are made to specifically protect animal farms from the harm that might be inflicted on them when a consumer of their products might see those videos. If such a law would be reasonable it would be worded similar to the law regarding taking video footage of policemen on duty in Germany. In that case, it's generally outlawed with a specific exception for when the policeman in question is in the process of performing an illegal act.
What are those laws that protect someone taking video footage of actual animal abuse that you speak of?
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On April 14 2013 07:26 acker wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 07:17 dAPhREAk wrote: i am not sure what you are upset about. if you work there, witness animal cruelty and seek to make video footage of it as proof, you are protected by whistleblowing laws. i have seen nothing that changes the whistleblowing laws.
as for the laws themselves, trespass is illegal, fraud is illegal, etc. these new laws are specific to ag, but there are already existing laws making them illegal so they are just making it specific to ag.
edit: and you can stop harping on the made up laws point, because i have yet to see a law that makes the mere videotaping of animal abuse illegal. they make actions in violation of premise owner's consent unlawful, not the mere act of videotaping of animal abuse. dAPhREAk, I'm still not sure if you're trolling or not. Firstly, which whistleblower law governs the actions related to this state law? Secondly, where exactly did previous trespass laws omit agribusiness from protection from trespassers? If they did not, why is the documentary of animal cruelty so heinous that it should be given extra-special punishment compared to normal trespass? Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 07:17 dAPhREAk wrote: i am not sure what you are upset about. if you work there, witness animal cruelty and seek to make video footage of it as proof, you are protected by whistleblowing laws. i have seen nothing that changes the whistleblowing laws. This is illegal under the passed law unless the videotaping is authorized by the facility owner. Unless you're saying that whistleblower laws supercede this law, in which case you'd have to explain why someone spent so much time passing a contradictory law. there are federal and state whistleblower laws. they make otherwise illegal activity (e.g., breach of contract) permissible where illegal activity is uncovered.
trespass laws did not omit agribusiness. why does this get special attention? because big-ag is a powerful lobby.
if you act on private property without consent = trespass. whistleblower doesnt supersede this law. it makes an otherwise illegal act permissible under certain circumstances. if you break this law, but dont uncover illegal activities, enjoy your fine.
every time someone in general calls me a troll for pointing out obvious issues, i seriously consider their mental abilities.
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