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Margaret Thatcher dies at age 87 - Page 17

Forum Index > General Forum
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Yergidy
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2107 Posts
April 09 2013 07:11 GMT
#321
A great loss to the world.
One bright day in the middle of the night, Two dead boys got up to fight; Back to back they faced each other, Drew their swords and shot each other.
Rossie
Profile Joined November 2012
136 Posts
April 09 2013 07:12 GMT
#322
On April 09 2013 16:06 Warlock40 wrote:
More like propaganda can make you think that Hitler won an election. But it'd be ludicrous to claim that Hitler "won" an election by any democratic standard.
He still might have won even without the thugs at polls. Look up the word "demagogue".
Erasme
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Bahamas15899 Posts
April 09 2013 07:15 GMT
#323
One of the few polititic i'd trust
rip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI “‘Drain the swamp’? Stupid saying, means nothing, but you guys loved it so I kept saying it.”
IshinShishi
Profile Joined April 2012
Japan6156 Posts
April 09 2013 07:25 GMT
#324
The Conservative prime minister had dismissed the ANC as "a typical terrorist organisation" and refused to back sanctions against the apartheid government, pursuing instead a policy of "constructive engagement". South Africa was then seen as a vital ally in stemming communist expansion.

I guess I don't actually need to say what I think of her.
So... what that make you? Good? You're not good. You just know how to hide, how to lie
SgtCoDFish
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United Kingdom1520 Posts
April 09 2013 07:36 GMT
#325
I didn't like Margaret Thatcher, and I think it's ludicrous to suggest people born after her time shouldn't have an opinion on the matter, or express it. I've spoken to a lot of people whose families she and her government totally ruined, in some cases for generations. I'm lucky enough to be from a steel-making town where everything wasn't just ruined immediately, but a lot of people not far from here and a lot of the nearby towns weren't so lucky.

The thing is though: Margaret Thatcher died on Monday an old woman riddled with dementia and health issues. She had no power any more, and while you can't deny she had a lasting impact, she was far from ever being impactful politically ever again.

Margaret Thatcher died yesterday, but the Iron Lady died a long time ago. Perhaps when she was ousted from office, perhaps when dementia took hold, certainly some time between then. Either way, there comes a point where her death stops representing any kind of victory over the woman who ruined so many lives and just becomes a personal loss to her family and friends. She'd gone long past that point and that's why I find actively celebrating her death very strange, if slightly understandable when you see the damage she caused.

I wouldn't wish death or dementia on my worst enemy though.
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
April 09 2013 07:36 GMT
#326
RIP Thatcher, what a wonderful leader she was
Kaitlin
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2958 Posts
April 09 2013 08:09 GMT
#327
On April 09 2013 07:29 Evangelist wrote:
Yeah. I don't think any American has the ability to comment on Thatcher's politics.


LOL. Because the US Politics thread is only Americans, right ?
ThaSlayer
Profile Joined March 2011
707 Posts
April 09 2013 08:15 GMT
#328
Could anyone direct me to a set of rational, well-explained reasons as to why Thatcher was hated? All the rage on the internet isn't helping at all. Thanks!
ThaSlayer
Profile Joined March 2011
707 Posts
April 09 2013 08:23 GMT
#329
On April 09 2013 06:36 nunez wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2013 06:22 Jaaaaasper wrote:
On April 09 2013 06:16 Wombat_NI wrote:
On April 09 2013 06:10 Atom Cannister wrote:
On April 09 2013 05:53 KwarK wrote:
On April 09 2013 05:49 Atom Cannister wrote:
On April 09 2013 05:37 KwarK wrote:
I am very, very aware of the ethnic cleansing carried out by England in Ireland, along with the rest of it. I understand that the plantations were a deliberate attempt to eradicate the Catholic Irish due to seeing them as a potential threat during the religious wars. I know my history and I know England was in the wrong for being in Ireland.

However that isn't relevant whether or not a man who uses bombs to murder civilians is a murderer or not. The peace process must be peaceful or it will have no legitimacy at all. I don't murder people not because I'm not brave enough to but because I do not think I have the right, no matter how strongly held my convictions might be, to take the life of another. A murderer does. It is narcissism at its most violent, criminal extreme.


You've ignored almost everything I wrote.

I tried to let you know that you're possibly not seeing the full picture. You respond with. I'm right, you're wrong.

Are all rebels common criminals? All rebels in all of history? What should one do when they're oppressed and denied basic human rights due to religion or race. They might protest peacefully. Yes, they might in Derry. This is exactly what happened. The Brits opened fire on civilians who were peacefully protesting.

What do people do after such responses to protests, yes violence can happen. Did these people target civilians? Did you look at the link I posted?

England has committed serious atrocities to Ireland. Don't, for the love of God, deny them. These were political prisoners. They were not just murderers targeting civilians.

I claimed that England committed ethnic cleansing in Ireland and you're now accusing me of denying atrocities and of ignoring your post. Maybe calm down and reread what I wrote.

Not all rebels are common criminals. For example MLK was not a common criminal. The peaceful protestors on Bloody Sunday were not common criminals. The bomb makers murdering innocent civilians were. I don't understand how you're not seeing this line. When you murder innocent people you become a murderer. When you peacefully protest you become a peaceful protester.


My point is that they're not common criminals and that should have had the status of political prisoners.

Taken from wikipedia:

"According to the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English, a political prisoner is ‘someone who is in prison because they have opposed or criticized the government of their own country’."

Do you disagree that this is what the hunger strikers were?

Just read that quote, then read this:

"Politics is politics and murder is murder, there isn't a crossover and being really hungry doesn't change that. It's unfortunate that Bobby Sands thought that if he got hungry enough then murder would become political but his eventual death wasn't enough to convince me."

Then, read them both again, maybe 5 times, to let it sink in.

You don't have to apologise for the offense you've caused me as long as you actually learn. That is actually all I want.

Please don't ever speak about such culturally delicate topics in the manner you have been in this thread again. Especially when you're arguing on the side of those who tried their hardest to eradicate the other's culture in every form.


Fuck off with your piousness. He can post if he wants, he hasn't shown an ignorance of the issue at any point in his posting.

The smugness of your posting is beyond belief.

And besides, kwark is correct. If you are arrested for killing civilians with bombs, then you have no right to be called a political prisoner.

if there's a conflict you will often have collateral damage, i don't think this is necessarily a crime in itself.

Of course it is a crime. You knowingly targeted civilians.
UdderChaos
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United Kingdom707 Posts
April 09 2013 09:00 GMT
#330
On April 09 2013 17:15 ThaSlayer wrote:
Could anyone direct me to a set of rational, well-explained reasons as to why Thatcher was hated? All the rage on the internet isn't helping at all. Thanks!

Again, as someone said above, think of what the republicans think of Obama, well the north of Britain and the less central left of Britain, pretty much have that attitude to Thatcher. The fact that twice the Godwin Law has been invoked by those very strongly against thatcher kind of tells you how rational they are.
Nunquam iens addo vos sursum
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-09 09:12:58
April 09 2013 09:02 GMT
#331
Interesting read:

The economic legacy of Mrs Thatcher

Nicholas Crafts, 8 April 2013

The death of Lady Thatcher makes it opportune to consider the difference that her governments made to the UK's economic performance. This column is an ‘economic obituary’.

The policies of the Conservative governments led by Margaret Thatcher between 1979 and 1990 remain highly controversial more than 20 years later. In many respects, they represented a sharp break with the earlier postwar period and this was certainly true of supply-side policies relevant to growth performance. Reforms of fiscal policy were made including the restructuring of taxation by increasing VAT while reducing income-tax rates and, notably, by indexing transfer payments to prices rather than wages while aiming to restore a balanced budget. Industrial policy was downsized as subsidies were cut and privatisation of state-owned businesses was embraced while deregulation, including most notably of financial markets with the ‘Big Bang’ in 1986, was promoted. Legal reforms of industrial relations further reduced trade union bargaining power which had initially been undermined by rising unemployment. In general, these changes were accepted rather than reversed by Labour after 1997. ...

Conclusion

In sum, Thatcherism was a partial solution to the problems which had led to earlier underperformance, in particular, those that had arisen from weak competition (Crafts 2012). The reforms encouraged the effective diffusion of new technology rather than greater invention and worked more through reducing inefficiency than promoting investment-led growth. They addressed relative economic decline through improving TFP and reducing the NAIRU. At the same time, the short-term implications were seriously adverse for many workers as unemployment rose and manufacturing rapidly shed two million jobs while income inequality surged, to no small extent as a result of benefit reforms.

Indeed, any judgement on Thatcherism turns heavily on value judgements concerning the relative importance of income distribution and economic growth as policy objectives. The 1980s saw a very rapid increase in the Gini coefficient by about nine percentage points, which has turned out to be largely permanent. Ultimately, the Thatcher experiment was about making a liberal market economy work better. There will be those who think a German-style coordinated market economy is preferable. That was not really an option available to Mrs Thatcher but in any event it was hardly a vision of which she approved.

Emphasis mine.

Full article here.

Edit: Posting this from an unrelated article. It seems that the relative decline of industry (or manufacturing at least) in the UK was nothing remarkable:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Source
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
April 09 2013 09:08 GMT
#332
if long term socialand human capital loss is a hotpoint in economics you'll see a sentence that reads something like "she did not provide for transitional resources for broad swath of workers and the regional economy."

We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
kollin
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom8380 Posts
April 09 2013 09:15 GMT
#333
On April 09 2013 18:00 UdderChaos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2013 17:15 ThaSlayer wrote:
Could anyone direct me to a set of rational, well-explained reasons as to why Thatcher was hated? All the rage on the internet isn't helping at all. Thanks!

Again, as someone said above, think of what the republicans think of Obama, well the north of Britain and the less central left of Britain, pretty much have that attitude to Thatcher. The fact that twice the Godwin Law has been invoked by those very strongly against thatcher kind of tells you how rational they are.

Nothing you said here is correct, and this kind of blanket statement from somebody who has no idea what they're talking about isn't appreciated.
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12041 Posts
April 09 2013 09:18 GMT
#334
On April 09 2013 15:01 Rossie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 09 2013 14:02 RowdierBob wrote:
She won three elections didn't she? Surely she must have had a large groundswell of support for what she was doing?
Hitler won an election. That's what propaganda can do.


That's not entirely the same situation is it?

Thatcher never used propaganda atleast not to the extent hitler did and if people hated her that much she wouldn't have got in for a second term, let alone a third.
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
Jiix
Profile Joined January 2012
21 Posts
April 09 2013 09:24 GMT
#335
To all those complaining that no-one should speak ill of her, I'm just going to leave this article here, in case it hasn't been linked already.

Margaret Thatcher and misapplied death etiquette
cozzE
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia357 Posts
April 09 2013 09:38 GMT
#336
The people here demanding respect here need to actually do some reading. She was a torturous witch that ruthlessly ignored the working-class in the UK. There was no love lost when she passed, hopefully she's in a terrible place with Stalin, Hitler, Pinochet, Pol Pot and all the other unforgiving despots of the 20th century.

User was warned for this post
Zaros
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom3692 Posts
April 09 2013 09:42 GMT
#337
On April 09 2013 18:38 cozzE wrote:
The people here demanding respect here need to actually do some reading. She was a torturous witch that ruthlessly ignored the working-class in the UK. There was no love lost when she passed, hopefully she's in a terrible place with Stalin, Hitler, Pinochet, Pol Pot and all the other unforgiving despots of the 20th century.


There are plenty of working class people who also liked thatcher, she was by no means a despot just ridiculous rhetoric you are throwing around.
Mafe
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany5966 Posts
April 09 2013 09:45 GMT
#338
Oh the irony.
NoxiousNoodles
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom61 Posts
April 09 2013 09:46 GMT
#339
On April 09 2013 18:38 cozzE wrote:
The people here demanding respect here need to actually do some reading. She was a torturous witch that ruthlessly ignored the working-class in the UK. There was no love lost when she passed, hopefully she's in a terrible place with Stalin, Hitler, Pinochet, Pol Pot and all the other unforgiving despots of the 20th century.


They should also avoid reading ridiculously biased materials like you clearly have. I am working class from an ex-mining town and should therefore apparently hate her. I don't, along with many people I know living here.
Hello!
Ysellian
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands9029 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-09 09:49:34
April 09 2013 09:48 GMT
#340
On April 09 2013 18:38 cozzE wrote:
The people here demanding respect here need to actually do some reading. She was a torturous witch that ruthlessly ignored the working-class in the UK. There was no love lost when she passed, hopefully she's in a terrible place with Stalin, Hitler, Pinochet, Pol Pot and all the other unforgiving despots of the 20th century.


A person telling other people to do some actually reading proceeds to place Thatcher amongst Hitler, Stalin, Pinochet and Pol Pot.

I was planning to stay well clear from this discussion, but this comment was a real eyebrow raiser.
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