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United States42638 Posts
On August 08 2013 08:05 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 08:04 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:01 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:57 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:55 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:49 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:47 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:46 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:43 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:41 maybenexttime wrote:
[quote]
It's pretty simple. How could you potentially know that they would not consent to have sex with you, had they known that you were not the person you seemed to be? It's only a reasonable assumption, right? Uhh... what? That's not what rape by impersonation is. What exactly do you mean "not the person you seemed to be"? How is the trans-person not the person they seemed to be? I don't understand. Please explain. To people who want sex with cis people a trans person is impersonating a cis person. And it doesn't matter that the trans person is just a person because you don't get to decide someone else's criteria for consent for them. If they don't want to have sex with a trans person and you're a trans person then feel free to explain to them that they're dumb for making the distinction but do not not disclose. How are they impersonating a cis person? Because 99.99% of people are cis. People are not seen as possibly trans, probably cis. They're just seen as cis. But they aren't impersonating someone different than themselves. It's obviously not the same thing. Yes, and yet the other person assumes they are cis because 99.99% of people are cis. The other person got it wrong, they made an incorrect assumption and they don't know it. The trans person knows though, they know that the other person is assuming they're something they're not, and they choose to not disclose. It's impersonation. But it's not like the person is different before and after you tell them. It's still the same person. It's not like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I'm actually FRED! Bwahaha!" That's impersonation. You're pretending to be another person. It's more like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I used to be Georgia, by the way." Again, the person assuming George was always George is getting it wrong, they are making a false assumption which is in no way the fault of the trans person. However the trans person is aware this is happening (assuming they didn't meet in a trans bar) and then actively chooses not to correct them. At this point it's impersonation. The same way that if the twin was walking down the street and his brother's wife approached him he might not explicitly claim to be his brother but he knows that she's assuming he is. Fred and George are twins from Harry Potter. That's exactly the distinction I was making.
Then I think we agree? Not disclosing the mistaken identity is no different to impersonation if you're aware of their false assumption.
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On August 08 2013 08:12 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 08:05 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:04 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:01 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:57 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:55 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:49 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:47 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:46 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:43 DoubleReed wrote:
[quote]
Uhh... what? That's not what rape by impersonation is. What exactly do you mean "not the person you seemed to be"? How is the trans-person not the person they seemed to be? I don't understand. Please explain. To people who want sex with cis people a trans person is impersonating a cis person. And it doesn't matter that the trans person is just a person because you don't get to decide someone else's criteria for consent for them. If they don't want to have sex with a trans person and you're a trans person then feel free to explain to them that they're dumb for making the distinction but do not not disclose. How are they impersonating a cis person? Because 99.99% of people are cis. People are not seen as possibly trans, probably cis. They're just seen as cis. But they aren't impersonating someone different than themselves. It's obviously not the same thing. Yes, and yet the other person assumes they are cis because 99.99% of people are cis. The other person got it wrong, they made an incorrect assumption and they don't know it. The trans person knows though, they know that the other person is assuming they're something they're not, and they choose to not disclose. It's impersonation. But it's not like the person is different before and after you tell them. It's still the same person. It's not like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I'm actually FRED! Bwahaha!" That's impersonation. You're pretending to be another person. It's more like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I used to be Georgia, by the way." Again, the person assuming George was always George is getting it wrong, they are making a false assumption which is in no way the fault of the trans person. However the trans person is aware this is happening (assuming they didn't meet in a trans bar) and then actively chooses not to correct them. At this point it's impersonation. The same way that if the twin was walking down the street and his brother's wife approached him he might not explicitly claim to be his brother but he knows that she's assuming he is. Fred and George are twins from Harry Potter. That's exactly the distinction I was making. Then I think we agree? Not disclosing the mistaken identity is no different to impersonation if you're aware of their false assumption.
What? No. I'm saying the two situations are obviously different, because there's no mistaken identity going on at all.
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On August 08 2013 07:53 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 07:48 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:46 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:45 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:42 farvacola wrote:On August 08 2013 07:40 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:36 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:29 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:19 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:17 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
[quote]
Bolded for emphasis. Who better knows ourselves than ourselves? Your reality is not mine. I'm sorry if that makes you uncomfortable. It doesn't matter what you know. If someone doesn't want to have sex with you because they think you're a bear, even though it's a ridiculous assumption, you don't get to simply force yourself on them because you know you're not. How are you not getting this? You keep repeating "I know their criteria for consent better than they do", it's no different from "she said "no" but I knew she wanted it". Literally no different. No, I don't know their criteria for consent because they haven't told me. I will state, however, that if they are groping me and grinding their penis into my ass, it is not my responsibility to be the one who comes out of the moment to clarify that they know what they are doing. I can't stress this enough: I am not responsible for knowing someone else's hangups. The numbers can be invoked all you want. It's fundamentally dishonest and unequal to place the responsibility of determining a person's understanding and interpretation of reality on me especially when the determination of what is relevant and irrelevant is arbitrarily determined by each individual. If there is honest equality, each individual is responsible for declaring their own hangups. "Reasonable assumption" has the same fallacies of "common sense." My interest is reality. Your's is protecting your imagination. Stop painting me as someone afraid of sex with a trans person. I am not. The numbers are a fact. It'd be easier for you if they weren't, but they are, and you know they are and it makes your behaviour inexcusable. There is a colossal imbalance in the information between the parties. Your partner knows that he shares criteria with, for the purpose of argument, 50% of people. You know you have a condition which affects roughly 0.01% of people. This means you are going into this with a 50% chance of violating someone if you do nothing whereas they are going into this with a 0.01% chance of being violated. If you know these numbers (hypothetical, just for the example) and you go "fuck it, that's their problem if they didn't want to have sex with a trans person", you're a predator. You know there is a reasonable chance that your partner does not want this but because you do want it you simply choose not to address that. This isn't a "I shouldn't have to" or a "it's not fair" or anything else. Whining about how you shouldn't have to doesn't chance shit, you're not trying to tick boxes, you're trying to protect the individuals involved from something they do not want. This is a moral obligation. Do you understand that sex with someone who doesn't want sex with you (but doesn't know) is a bad thing? Can you at least get that? You're taking this too personally. I've never said that you, personally, are afraid to have sex with a trans person. If this was personal, I know *I* wouldn't want to have sex with you even if you for some reason wanted to have it with me. I get it if they clarify first. If they already have their mouth on my genitals or their penis in me, I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that they want it. This is the definition of slut shaming.....particularly sinc you keep referencing clubs and places where alcohol and drugs are common. I would contend that me being called a "predator" and a "rapist" is more slut-shaming than me enjoying being a slut with someone else being a slut. What? That makes no sense, and you know it makes no sense. Please make sense. It makes sense because all I do is enjoy my sexuality by the same standards and practices reasonably assumable as everyone else, but I'm in the wrong for doing so. No. The standard I hold you to is universal. It's a standard I have built from fetish scenes in which predators are pretty common and do an awful lot of very rapey stuff. If you suspect the other person doesn't want you to do X then you check. If they're really headspaced and you have reason to doubt their answer then you ignore their yes and stop the scene anyway. You protect your partner. You are in the wrong for doing it because you are acting like being trans isn't a big deal when to a lot of people it is. Those people still have rights. You can want to be cis all you want but you are not and never will be and for those people, that is an issue. You are in the wrong for having a predatory approach to those people. You lost the birth lottery, you were born trans and that sucks for you but that does not give you the right to go "if I wasn't trans this behaviour would be fine therefore it's fine". Those people have rights and you need to understand that and respect them.
The kink scene is not the same as a vanilla hook up and I'm pretty sure you know this.
"Those people" have the right to tell me they don't want to have sex with someone they consider to be transsexual. They have the right to speak up. They do not have the right to make me responsible for their feelings. That's called entitlement.
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United States42638 Posts
On August 08 2013 08:14 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 08:12 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:05 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:04 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:01 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:57 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:55 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:49 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:47 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:46 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
To people who want sex with cis people a trans person is impersonating a cis person. And it doesn't matter that the trans person is just a person because you don't get to decide someone else's criteria for consent for them. If they don't want to have sex with a trans person and you're a trans person then feel free to explain to them that they're dumb for making the distinction but do not not disclose. How are they impersonating a cis person? Because 99.99% of people are cis. People are not seen as possibly trans, probably cis. They're just seen as cis. But they aren't impersonating someone different than themselves. It's obviously not the same thing. Yes, and yet the other person assumes they are cis because 99.99% of people are cis. The other person got it wrong, they made an incorrect assumption and they don't know it. The trans person knows though, they know that the other person is assuming they're something they're not, and they choose to not disclose. It's impersonation. But it's not like the person is different before and after you tell them. It's still the same person. It's not like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I'm actually FRED! Bwahaha!" That's impersonation. You're pretending to be another person. It's more like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I used to be Georgia, by the way." Again, the person assuming George was always George is getting it wrong, they are making a false assumption which is in no way the fault of the trans person. However the trans person is aware this is happening (assuming they didn't meet in a trans bar) and then actively chooses not to correct them. At this point it's impersonation. The same way that if the twin was walking down the street and his brother's wife approached him he might not explicitly claim to be his brother but he knows that she's assuming he is. Fred and George are twins from Harry Potter. That's exactly the distinction I was making. Then I think we agree? Not disclosing the mistaken identity is no different to impersonation if you're aware of their false assumption. What? No. I'm saying the two situations are obviously different, because there's no mistaken identity going on at all.
Assuming someone is cis when they're actually trans is a mistaken identity.
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On August 08 2013 08:05 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 08:04 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:01 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:57 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:55 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:49 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:47 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:46 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:43 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:41 maybenexttime wrote:
[quote]
It's pretty simple. How could you potentially know that they would not consent to have sex with you, had they known that you were not the person you seemed to be? It's only a reasonable assumption, right? Uhh... what? That's not what rape by impersonation is. What exactly do you mean "not the person you seemed to be"? How is the trans-person not the person they seemed to be? I don't understand. Please explain. To people who want sex with cis people a trans person is impersonating a cis person. And it doesn't matter that the trans person is just a person because you don't get to decide someone else's criteria for consent for them. If they don't want to have sex with a trans person and you're a trans person then feel free to explain to them that they're dumb for making the distinction but do not not disclose. How are they impersonating a cis person? Because 99.99% of people are cis. People are not seen as possibly trans, probably cis. They're just seen as cis. But they aren't impersonating someone different than themselves. It's obviously not the same thing. Yes, and yet the other person assumes they are cis because 99.99% of people are cis. The other person got it wrong, they made an incorrect assumption and they don't know it. The trans person knows though, they know that the other person is assuming they're something they're not, and they choose to not disclose. It's impersonation. But it's not like the person is different before and after you tell them. It's still the same person. It's not like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I'm actually FRED! Bwahaha!" That's impersonation. You're pretending to be another person. It's more like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I used to be Georgia, by the way." Again, the person assuming George was always George is getting it wrong, they are making a false assumption which is in no way the fault of the trans person. However the trans person is aware this is happening (assuming they didn't meet in a trans bar) and then actively chooses not to correct them. At this point it's impersonation. The same way that if the twin was walking down the street and his brother's wife approached him he might not explicitly claim to be his brother but he knows that she's assuming he is. Fred and George are twins from Harry Potter. That's exactly the distinction I was making.
You should DEFINITELY disclose the fact that you are a Harry Potter fan before having sex with anyone.
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On August 08 2013 08:14 RaspberrySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 07:53 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:48 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:46 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:45 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:42 farvacola wrote:On August 08 2013 07:40 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:36 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:29 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:19 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
It doesn't matter what you know. If someone doesn't want to have sex with you because they think you're a bear, even though it's a ridiculous assumption, you don't get to simply force yourself on them because you know you're not. How are you not getting this? You keep repeating "I know their criteria for consent better than they do", it's no different from "she said "no" but I knew she wanted it". Literally no different. No, I don't know their criteria for consent because they haven't told me. I will state, however, that if they are groping me and grinding their penis into my ass, it is not my responsibility to be the one who comes out of the moment to clarify that they know what they are doing. I can't stress this enough: I am not responsible for knowing someone else's hangups. The numbers can be invoked all you want. It's fundamentally dishonest and unequal to place the responsibility of determining a person's understanding and interpretation of reality on me especially when the determination of what is relevant and irrelevant is arbitrarily determined by each individual. If there is honest equality, each individual is responsible for declaring their own hangups. "Reasonable assumption" has the same fallacies of "common sense." My interest is reality. Your's is protecting your imagination. Stop painting me as someone afraid of sex with a trans person. I am not. The numbers are a fact. It'd be easier for you if they weren't, but they are, and you know they are and it makes your behaviour inexcusable. There is a colossal imbalance in the information between the parties. Your partner knows that he shares criteria with, for the purpose of argument, 50% of people. You know you have a condition which affects roughly 0.01% of people. This means you are going into this with a 50% chance of violating someone if you do nothing whereas they are going into this with a 0.01% chance of being violated. If you know these numbers (hypothetical, just for the example) and you go "fuck it, that's their problem if they didn't want to have sex with a trans person", you're a predator. You know there is a reasonable chance that your partner does not want this but because you do want it you simply choose not to address that. This isn't a "I shouldn't have to" or a "it's not fair" or anything else. Whining about how you shouldn't have to doesn't chance shit, you're not trying to tick boxes, you're trying to protect the individuals involved from something they do not want. This is a moral obligation. Do you understand that sex with someone who doesn't want sex with you (but doesn't know) is a bad thing? Can you at least get that? You're taking this too personally. I've never said that you, personally, are afraid to have sex with a trans person. If this was personal, I know *I* wouldn't want to have sex with you even if you for some reason wanted to have it with me. I get it if they clarify first. If they already have their mouth on my genitals or their penis in me, I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that they want it. This is the definition of slut shaming.....particularly sinc you keep referencing clubs and places where alcohol and drugs are common. I would contend that me being called a "predator" and a "rapist" is more slut-shaming than me enjoying being a slut with someone else being a slut. What? That makes no sense, and you know it makes no sense. Please make sense. It makes sense because all I do is enjoy my sexuality by the same standards and practices reasonably assumable as everyone else, but I'm in the wrong for doing so. No. The standard I hold you to is universal. It's a standard I have built from fetish scenes in which predators are pretty common and do an awful lot of very rapey stuff. If you suspect the other person doesn't want you to do X then you check. If they're really headspaced and you have reason to doubt their answer then you ignore their yes and stop the scene anyway. You protect your partner. You are in the wrong for doing it because you are acting like being trans isn't a big deal when to a lot of people it is. Those people still have rights. You can want to be cis all you want but you are not and never will be and for those people, that is an issue. You are in the wrong for having a predatory approach to those people. You lost the birth lottery, you were born trans and that sucks for you but that does not give you the right to go "if I wasn't trans this behaviour would be fine therefore it's fine". Those people have rights and you need to understand that and respect them. The kink scene is not the same as a vanilla hook up and I'm pretty sure you know this. "Those people" have the right to tell me they don't want to have sex with someone they consider to be transsexual. They have the right to speak up. They do not have the right to make me responsible for their feelings. That's called entitlement.
Isn't that the exact opposite of how the kink scene works? You have to constantly and especially aware of other people's feelings because you are even more responsible than usual. Come on, how do you not consider yourself a predator after typing that?
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United States42638 Posts
On August 08 2013 08:14 RaspberrySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 07:53 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:48 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:46 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:45 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:42 farvacola wrote:On August 08 2013 07:40 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:36 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:29 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:19 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
It doesn't matter what you know. If someone doesn't want to have sex with you because they think you're a bear, even though it's a ridiculous assumption, you don't get to simply force yourself on them because you know you're not. How are you not getting this? You keep repeating "I know their criteria for consent better than they do", it's no different from "she said "no" but I knew she wanted it". Literally no different. No, I don't know their criteria for consent because they haven't told me. I will state, however, that if they are groping me and grinding their penis into my ass, it is not my responsibility to be the one who comes out of the moment to clarify that they know what they are doing. I can't stress this enough: I am not responsible for knowing someone else's hangups. The numbers can be invoked all you want. It's fundamentally dishonest and unequal to place the responsibility of determining a person's understanding and interpretation of reality on me especially when the determination of what is relevant and irrelevant is arbitrarily determined by each individual. If there is honest equality, each individual is responsible for declaring their own hangups. "Reasonable assumption" has the same fallacies of "common sense." My interest is reality. Your's is protecting your imagination. Stop painting me as someone afraid of sex with a trans person. I am not. The numbers are a fact. It'd be easier for you if they weren't, but they are, and you know they are and it makes your behaviour inexcusable. There is a colossal imbalance in the information between the parties. Your partner knows that he shares criteria with, for the purpose of argument, 50% of people. You know you have a condition which affects roughly 0.01% of people. This means you are going into this with a 50% chance of violating someone if you do nothing whereas they are going into this with a 0.01% chance of being violated. If you know these numbers (hypothetical, just for the example) and you go "fuck it, that's their problem if they didn't want to have sex with a trans person", you're a predator. You know there is a reasonable chance that your partner does not want this but because you do want it you simply choose not to address that. This isn't a "I shouldn't have to" or a "it's not fair" or anything else. Whining about how you shouldn't have to doesn't chance shit, you're not trying to tick boxes, you're trying to protect the individuals involved from something they do not want. This is a moral obligation. Do you understand that sex with someone who doesn't want sex with you (but doesn't know) is a bad thing? Can you at least get that? You're taking this too personally. I've never said that you, personally, are afraid to have sex with a trans person. If this was personal, I know *I* wouldn't want to have sex with you even if you for some reason wanted to have it with me. I get it if they clarify first. If they already have their mouth on my genitals or their penis in me, I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that they want it. This is the definition of slut shaming.....particularly sinc you keep referencing clubs and places where alcohol and drugs are common. I would contend that me being called a "predator" and a "rapist" is more slut-shaming than me enjoying being a slut with someone else being a slut. What? That makes no sense, and you know it makes no sense. Please make sense. It makes sense because all I do is enjoy my sexuality by the same standards and practices reasonably assumable as everyone else, but I'm in the wrong for doing so. No. The standard I hold you to is universal. It's a standard I have built from fetish scenes in which predators are pretty common and do an awful lot of very rapey stuff. If you suspect the other person doesn't want you to do X then you check. If they're really headspaced and you have reason to doubt their answer then you ignore their yes and stop the scene anyway. You protect your partner. You are in the wrong for doing it because you are acting like being trans isn't a big deal when to a lot of people it is. Those people still have rights. You can want to be cis all you want but you are not and never will be and for those people, that is an issue. You are in the wrong for having a predatory approach to those people. You lost the birth lottery, you were born trans and that sucks for you but that does not give you the right to go "if I wasn't trans this behaviour would be fine therefore it's fine". Those people have rights and you need to understand that and respect them. The kink scene is not the same as a vanilla hook up and I'm pretty sure you know this. "Those people" have the right to tell me they don't want to have sex with someone they consider to be transsexual. They have the right to speak up. They do not have the right to make me responsible for their feelings. That's called entitlement.
People absolutely are entitled to have consideration of their wishes taken into account before you do sex stuff to them, rather than simply thinking of "can I get way with it?" and "do I want to do it".
Going "that's entitlement" doesn't explain why the thing is bad. The moral principles about consent within the kink scenes apply generally. If someone doesn't want something you don't do it. That simple.
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On August 08 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 08:14 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:12 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:05 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:04 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:01 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:57 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:55 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:49 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:47 DoubleReed wrote:
[quote]
How are they impersonating a cis person? Because 99.99% of people are cis. People are not seen as possibly trans, probably cis. They're just seen as cis. But they aren't impersonating someone different than themselves. It's obviously not the same thing. Yes, and yet the other person assumes they are cis because 99.99% of people are cis. The other person got it wrong, they made an incorrect assumption and they don't know it. The trans person knows though, they know that the other person is assuming they're something they're not, and they choose to not disclose. It's impersonation. But it's not like the person is different before and after you tell them. It's still the same person. It's not like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I'm actually FRED! Bwahaha!" That's impersonation. You're pretending to be another person. It's more like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I used to be Georgia, by the way." Again, the person assuming George was always George is getting it wrong, they are making a false assumption which is in no way the fault of the trans person. However the trans person is aware this is happening (assuming they didn't meet in a trans bar) and then actively chooses not to correct them. At this point it's impersonation. The same way that if the twin was walking down the street and his brother's wife approached him he might not explicitly claim to be his brother but he knows that she's assuming he is. Fred and George are twins from Harry Potter. That's exactly the distinction I was making. Then I think we agree? Not disclosing the mistaken identity is no different to impersonation if you're aware of their false assumption. What? No. I'm saying the two situations are obviously different, because there's no mistaken identity going on at all. Assuming someone is cis when they're actually trans is a mistaken identity.
Again, I fail to see how this is mistaken identity. George is George and is still as much George as George could ever be.
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United States42638 Posts
On August 08 2013 08:17 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:14 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:12 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:05 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:04 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:01 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:57 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:55 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:49 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Because 99.99% of people are cis. People are not seen as possibly trans, probably cis. They're just seen as cis. But they aren't impersonating someone different than themselves. It's obviously not the same thing. Yes, and yet the other person assumes they are cis because 99.99% of people are cis. The other person got it wrong, they made an incorrect assumption and they don't know it. The trans person knows though, they know that the other person is assuming they're something they're not, and they choose to not disclose. It's impersonation. But it's not like the person is different before and after you tell them. It's still the same person. It's not like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I'm actually FRED! Bwahaha!" That's impersonation. You're pretending to be another person. It's more like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I used to be Georgia, by the way." Again, the person assuming George was always George is getting it wrong, they are making a false assumption which is in no way the fault of the trans person. However the trans person is aware this is happening (assuming they didn't meet in a trans bar) and then actively chooses not to correct them. At this point it's impersonation. The same way that if the twin was walking down the street and his brother's wife approached him he might not explicitly claim to be his brother but he knows that she's assuming he is. Fred and George are twins from Harry Potter. That's exactly the distinction I was making. Then I think we agree? Not disclosing the mistaken identity is no different to impersonation if you're aware of their false assumption. What? No. I'm saying the two situations are obviously different, because there's no mistaken identity going on at all. Assuming someone is cis when they're actually trans is a mistaken identity. Again, I fail to see how this is mistaken identity. George is George and is still as much George as George could ever be.
You believe the only characteristic that makes up an identity is name? If I believe you are George the cis and you are in fact George the trans there has been a mistake made regarding your identity.
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On August 08 2013 08:14 RaspberrySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 07:53 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:48 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:46 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:45 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:42 farvacola wrote:On August 08 2013 07:40 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:36 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:29 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:19 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
It doesn't matter what you know. If someone doesn't want to have sex with you because they think you're a bear, even though it's a ridiculous assumption, you don't get to simply force yourself on them because you know you're not. How are you not getting this? You keep repeating "I know their criteria for consent better than they do", it's no different from "she said "no" but I knew she wanted it". Literally no different. No, I don't know their criteria for consent because they haven't told me. I will state, however, that if they are groping me and grinding their penis into my ass, it is not my responsibility to be the one who comes out of the moment to clarify that they know what they are doing. I can't stress this enough: I am not responsible for knowing someone else's hangups. The numbers can be invoked all you want. It's fundamentally dishonest and unequal to place the responsibility of determining a person's understanding and interpretation of reality on me especially when the determination of what is relevant and irrelevant is arbitrarily determined by each individual. If there is honest equality, each individual is responsible for declaring their own hangups. "Reasonable assumption" has the same fallacies of "common sense." My interest is reality. Your's is protecting your imagination. Stop painting me as someone afraid of sex with a trans person. I am not. The numbers are a fact. It'd be easier for you if they weren't, but they are, and you know they are and it makes your behaviour inexcusable. There is a colossal imbalance in the information between the parties. Your partner knows that he shares criteria with, for the purpose of argument, 50% of people. You know you have a condition which affects roughly 0.01% of people. This means you are going into this with a 50% chance of violating someone if you do nothing whereas they are going into this with a 0.01% chance of being violated. If you know these numbers (hypothetical, just for the example) and you go "fuck it, that's their problem if they didn't want to have sex with a trans person", you're a predator. You know there is a reasonable chance that your partner does not want this but because you do want it you simply choose not to address that. This isn't a "I shouldn't have to" or a "it's not fair" or anything else. Whining about how you shouldn't have to doesn't chance shit, you're not trying to tick boxes, you're trying to protect the individuals involved from something they do not want. This is a moral obligation. Do you understand that sex with someone who doesn't want sex with you (but doesn't know) is a bad thing? Can you at least get that? You're taking this too personally. I've never said that you, personally, are afraid to have sex with a trans person. If this was personal, I know *I* wouldn't want to have sex with you even if you for some reason wanted to have it with me. I get it if they clarify first. If they already have their mouth on my genitals or their penis in me, I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that they want it. This is the definition of slut shaming.....particularly sinc you keep referencing clubs and places where alcohol and drugs are common. I would contend that me being called a "predator" and a "rapist" is more slut-shaming than me enjoying being a slut with someone else being a slut. What? That makes no sense, and you know it makes no sense. Please make sense. It makes sense because all I do is enjoy my sexuality by the same standards and practices reasonably assumable as everyone else, but I'm in the wrong for doing so. No. The standard I hold you to is universal. It's a standard I have built from fetish scenes in which predators are pretty common and do an awful lot of very rapey stuff. If you suspect the other person doesn't want you to do X then you check. If they're really headspaced and you have reason to doubt their answer then you ignore their yes and stop the scene anyway. You protect your partner. You are in the wrong for doing it because you are acting like being trans isn't a big deal when to a lot of people it is. Those people still have rights. You can want to be cis all you want but you are not and never will be and for those people, that is an issue. You are in the wrong for having a predatory approach to those people. You lost the birth lottery, you were born trans and that sucks for you but that does not give you the right to go "if I wasn't trans this behaviour would be fine therefore it's fine". Those people have rights and you need to understand that and respect them. The kink scene is not the same as a vanilla hook up and I'm pretty sure you know this. "Those people" have the right to tell me they don't want to have sex with someone they consider to be transsexual. They have the right to speak up. They do not have the right to make me responsible for their feelings. That's called entitlement.
"Those people" should also avoid walking by a tree in a sunny day because of the off chance that a lightning strikes them. And keep supplies in their basement in case a zombie apocalypse.
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On August 08 2013 08:17 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 08:14 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:53 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:48 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:46 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:45 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:42 farvacola wrote:On August 08 2013 07:40 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:36 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:29 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
[quote]
No, I don't know their criteria for consent because they haven't told me.
I will state, however, that if they are groping me and grinding their penis into my ass, it is not my responsibility to be the one who comes out of the moment to clarify that they know what they are doing.
I can't stress this enough: I am not responsible for knowing someone else's hangups.
The numbers can be invoked all you want. It's fundamentally dishonest and unequal to place the responsibility of determining a person's understanding and interpretation of reality on me especially when the determination of what is relevant and irrelevant is arbitrarily determined by each individual. If there is honest equality, each individual is responsible for declaring their own hangups.
"Reasonable assumption" has the same fallacies of "common sense."
My interest is reality. Your's is protecting your imagination. Stop painting me as someone afraid of sex with a trans person. I am not. The numbers are a fact. It'd be easier for you if they weren't, but they are, and you know they are and it makes your behaviour inexcusable. There is a colossal imbalance in the information between the parties. Your partner knows that he shares criteria with, for the purpose of argument, 50% of people. You know you have a condition which affects roughly 0.01% of people. This means you are going into this with a 50% chance of violating someone if you do nothing whereas they are going into this with a 0.01% chance of being violated. If you know these numbers (hypothetical, just for the example) and you go "fuck it, that's their problem if they didn't want to have sex with a trans person", you're a predator. You know there is a reasonable chance that your partner does not want this but because you do want it you simply choose not to address that. This isn't a "I shouldn't have to" or a "it's not fair" or anything else. Whining about how you shouldn't have to doesn't chance shit, you're not trying to tick boxes, you're trying to protect the individuals involved from something they do not want. This is a moral obligation. Do you understand that sex with someone who doesn't want sex with you (but doesn't know) is a bad thing? Can you at least get that? You're taking this too personally. I've never said that you, personally, are afraid to have sex with a trans person. If this was personal, I know *I* wouldn't want to have sex with you even if you for some reason wanted to have it with me. I get it if they clarify first. If they already have their mouth on my genitals or their penis in me, I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that they want it. This is the definition of slut shaming.....particularly sinc you keep referencing clubs and places where alcohol and drugs are common. I would contend that me being called a "predator" and a "rapist" is more slut-shaming than me enjoying being a slut with someone else being a slut. What? That makes no sense, and you know it makes no sense. Please make sense. It makes sense because all I do is enjoy my sexuality by the same standards and practices reasonably assumable as everyone else, but I'm in the wrong for doing so. No. The standard I hold you to is universal. It's a standard I have built from fetish scenes in which predators are pretty common and do an awful lot of very rapey stuff. If you suspect the other person doesn't want you to do X then you check. If they're really headspaced and you have reason to doubt their answer then you ignore their yes and stop the scene anyway. You protect your partner. You are in the wrong for doing it because you are acting like being trans isn't a big deal when to a lot of people it is. Those people still have rights. You can want to be cis all you want but you are not and never will be and for those people, that is an issue. You are in the wrong for having a predatory approach to those people. You lost the birth lottery, you were born trans and that sucks for you but that does not give you the right to go "if I wasn't trans this behaviour would be fine therefore it's fine". Those people have rights and you need to understand that and respect them. The kink scene is not the same as a vanilla hook up and I'm pretty sure you know this. "Those people" have the right to tell me they don't want to have sex with someone they consider to be transsexual. They have the right to speak up. They do not have the right to make me responsible for their feelings. That's called entitlement. Isn't that the exact opposite of how the kink scene works? You have to constantly and especially aware of other people's feelings because you are even more responsible than usual. Come on, how do you not consider yourself a predator after typing that?
Communicating limitations beforehand and using safewords is how I kink. If I'm in the "dominant" position and don't care about feeling like a glorified sex toy for a while, I'll agree to only doing what they say they want done without deviation. However, since that quickly leaves me feeling distant and inhuman, I don't do it very much.
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On August 08 2013 08:19 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 08:17 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:14 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:12 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:05 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:04 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:01 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:57 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:55 DoubleReed wrote:
[quote]
But they aren't impersonating someone different than themselves. It's obviously not the same thing. Yes, and yet the other person assumes they are cis because 99.99% of people are cis. The other person got it wrong, they made an incorrect assumption and they don't know it. The trans person knows though, they know that the other person is assuming they're something they're not, and they choose to not disclose. It's impersonation. But it's not like the person is different before and after you tell them. It's still the same person. It's not like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I'm actually FRED! Bwahaha!" That's impersonation. You're pretending to be another person. It's more like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I used to be Georgia, by the way." Again, the person assuming George was always George is getting it wrong, they are making a false assumption which is in no way the fault of the trans person. However the trans person is aware this is happening (assuming they didn't meet in a trans bar) and then actively chooses not to correct them. At this point it's impersonation. The same way that if the twin was walking down the street and his brother's wife approached him he might not explicitly claim to be his brother but he knows that she's assuming he is. Fred and George are twins from Harry Potter. That's exactly the distinction I was making. Then I think we agree? Not disclosing the mistaken identity is no different to impersonation if you're aware of their false assumption. What? No. I'm saying the two situations are obviously different, because there's no mistaken identity going on at all. Assuming someone is cis when they're actually trans is a mistaken identity. Again, I fail to see how this is mistaken identity. George is George and is still as much George as George could ever be. You believe the only characteristic that makes up an identity is name? If I believe you are George the cis and you are in fact George the trans there has been a mistake made regarding your identity.
Uhh... no. I'm just getting the impression that you think gender is the only characteristic of identity. And I'm not sure why.
There is no "George the cis" if George is trans. There's only George.
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On August 08 2013 08:22 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 08:19 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:17 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:14 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:12 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:05 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:04 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:01 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:57 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Yes, and yet the other person assumes they are cis because 99.99% of people are cis. The other person got it wrong, they made an incorrect assumption and they don't know it. The trans person knows though, they know that the other person is assuming they're something they're not, and they choose to not disclose. It's impersonation. But it's not like the person is different before and after you tell them. It's still the same person. It's not like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I'm actually FRED! Bwahaha!" That's impersonation. You're pretending to be another person. It's more like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I used to be Georgia, by the way." Again, the person assuming George was always George is getting it wrong, they are making a false assumption which is in no way the fault of the trans person. However the trans person is aware this is happening (assuming they didn't meet in a trans bar) and then actively chooses not to correct them. At this point it's impersonation. The same way that if the twin was walking down the street and his brother's wife approached him he might not explicitly claim to be his brother but he knows that she's assuming he is. Fred and George are twins from Harry Potter. That's exactly the distinction I was making. Then I think we agree? Not disclosing the mistaken identity is no different to impersonation if you're aware of their false assumption. What? No. I'm saying the two situations are obviously different, because there's no mistaken identity going on at all. Assuming someone is cis when they're actually trans is a mistaken identity. Again, I fail to see how this is mistaken identity. George is George and is still as much George as George could ever be. You believe the only characteristic that makes up an identity is name? If I believe you are George the cis and you are in fact George the trans there has been a mistake made regarding your identity. Uhh... no. I'm just getting the impression that you think gender is the only characteristic of identity. And I'm not sure why. There is no "George the cis" if George is trans. There's only George.
To you. Not to most people.
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On August 08 2013 08:17 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 08:14 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:53 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:48 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:46 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:45 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:42 farvacola wrote:On August 08 2013 07:40 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:36 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:29 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
[quote]
No, I don't know their criteria for consent because they haven't told me.
I will state, however, that if they are groping me and grinding their penis into my ass, it is not my responsibility to be the one who comes out of the moment to clarify that they know what they are doing.
I can't stress this enough: I am not responsible for knowing someone else's hangups.
The numbers can be invoked all you want. It's fundamentally dishonest and unequal to place the responsibility of determining a person's understanding and interpretation of reality on me especially when the determination of what is relevant and irrelevant is arbitrarily determined by each individual. If there is honest equality, each individual is responsible for declaring their own hangups.
"Reasonable assumption" has the same fallacies of "common sense."
My interest is reality. Your's is protecting your imagination. Stop painting me as someone afraid of sex with a trans person. I am not. The numbers are a fact. It'd be easier for you if they weren't, but they are, and you know they are and it makes your behaviour inexcusable. There is a colossal imbalance in the information between the parties. Your partner knows that he shares criteria with, for the purpose of argument, 50% of people. You know you have a condition which affects roughly 0.01% of people. This means you are going into this with a 50% chance of violating someone if you do nothing whereas they are going into this with a 0.01% chance of being violated. If you know these numbers (hypothetical, just for the example) and you go "fuck it, that's their problem if they didn't want to have sex with a trans person", you're a predator. You know there is a reasonable chance that your partner does not want this but because you do want it you simply choose not to address that. This isn't a "I shouldn't have to" or a "it's not fair" or anything else. Whining about how you shouldn't have to doesn't chance shit, you're not trying to tick boxes, you're trying to protect the individuals involved from something they do not want. This is a moral obligation. Do you understand that sex with someone who doesn't want sex with you (but doesn't know) is a bad thing? Can you at least get that? You're taking this too personally. I've never said that you, personally, are afraid to have sex with a trans person. If this was personal, I know *I* wouldn't want to have sex with you even if you for some reason wanted to have it with me. I get it if they clarify first. If they already have their mouth on my genitals or their penis in me, I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that they want it. This is the definition of slut shaming.....particularly sinc you keep referencing clubs and places where alcohol and drugs are common. I would contend that me being called a "predator" and a "rapist" is more slut-shaming than me enjoying being a slut with someone else being a slut. What? That makes no sense, and you know it makes no sense. Please make sense. It makes sense because all I do is enjoy my sexuality by the same standards and practices reasonably assumable as everyone else, but I'm in the wrong for doing so. No. The standard I hold you to is universal. It's a standard I have built from fetish scenes in which predators are pretty common and do an awful lot of very rapey stuff. If you suspect the other person doesn't want you to do X then you check. If they're really headspaced and you have reason to doubt their answer then you ignore their yes and stop the scene anyway. You protect your partner. You are in the wrong for doing it because you are acting like being trans isn't a big deal when to a lot of people it is. Those people still have rights. You can want to be cis all you want but you are not and never will be and for those people, that is an issue. You are in the wrong for having a predatory approach to those people. You lost the birth lottery, you were born trans and that sucks for you but that does not give you the right to go "if I wasn't trans this behaviour would be fine therefore it's fine". Those people have rights and you need to understand that and respect them. The kink scene is not the same as a vanilla hook up and I'm pretty sure you know this. "Those people" have the right to tell me they don't want to have sex with someone they consider to be transsexual. They have the right to speak up. They do not have the right to make me responsible for their feelings. That's called entitlement. People absolutely are entitled to have consideration of their wishes taken into account before you do sex stuff to them, rather than simply thinking of "can I get way with it?" and "do I want to do it". Going "that's entitlement" doesn't explain why the thing is bad. The moral principles about consent within the kink scenes apply generally. If someone doesn't want something you don't do it. That simple.
I think you have this propaganda image of me in your mind akin to the "greedy jew", rubbing my hands together, scheming, and going "mwhahahaha!". It's pretty offensive. I'm not trying to "get away" with anything.
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On August 08 2013 08:23 RaspberrySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 08:17 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:14 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:53 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:48 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:46 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:45 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:42 farvacola wrote:On August 08 2013 07:40 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:36 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Stop painting me as someone afraid of sex with a trans person. I am not.
The numbers are a fact. It'd be easier for you if they weren't, but they are, and you know they are and it makes your behaviour inexcusable. There is a colossal imbalance in the information between the parties. Your partner knows that he shares criteria with, for the purpose of argument, 50% of people. You know you have a condition which affects roughly 0.01% of people. This means you are going into this with a 50% chance of violating someone if you do nothing whereas they are going into this with a 0.01% chance of being violated. If you know these numbers (hypothetical, just for the example) and you go "fuck it, that's their problem if they didn't want to have sex with a trans person", you're a predator. You know there is a reasonable chance that your partner does not want this but because you do want it you simply choose not to address that.
This isn't a "I shouldn't have to" or a "it's not fair" or anything else. Whining about how you shouldn't have to doesn't chance shit, you're not trying to tick boxes, you're trying to protect the individuals involved from something they do not want. This is a moral obligation.
Do you understand that sex with someone who doesn't want sex with you (but doesn't know) is a bad thing? Can you at least get that? You're taking this too personally. I've never said that you, personally, are afraid to have sex with a trans person. If this was personal, I know *I* wouldn't want to have sex with you even if you for some reason wanted to have it with me. I get it if they clarify first. If they already have their mouth on my genitals or their penis in me, I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that they want it. This is the definition of slut shaming.....particularly sinc you keep referencing clubs and places where alcohol and drugs are common. I would contend that me being called a "predator" and a "rapist" is more slut-shaming than me enjoying being a slut with someone else being a slut. What? That makes no sense, and you know it makes no sense. Please make sense. It makes sense because all I do is enjoy my sexuality by the same standards and practices reasonably assumable as everyone else, but I'm in the wrong for doing so. No. The standard I hold you to is universal. It's a standard I have built from fetish scenes in which predators are pretty common and do an awful lot of very rapey stuff. If you suspect the other person doesn't want you to do X then you check. If they're really headspaced and you have reason to doubt their answer then you ignore their yes and stop the scene anyway. You protect your partner. You are in the wrong for doing it because you are acting like being trans isn't a big deal when to a lot of people it is. Those people still have rights. You can want to be cis all you want but you are not and never will be and for those people, that is an issue. You are in the wrong for having a predatory approach to those people. You lost the birth lottery, you were born trans and that sucks for you but that does not give you the right to go "if I wasn't trans this behaviour would be fine therefore it's fine". Those people have rights and you need to understand that and respect them. The kink scene is not the same as a vanilla hook up and I'm pretty sure you know this. "Those people" have the right to tell me they don't want to have sex with someone they consider to be transsexual. They have the right to speak up. They do not have the right to make me responsible for their feelings. That's called entitlement. People absolutely are entitled to have consideration of their wishes taken into account before you do sex stuff to them, rather than simply thinking of "can I get way with it?" and "do I want to do it". Going "that's entitlement" doesn't explain why the thing is bad. The moral principles about consent within the kink scenes apply generally. If someone doesn't want something you don't do it. That simple. I think you have this propaganda image of me in your mind akin to the "greedy jew", rubbing my hands together, scheming, and going "mwhahahaha!". It's pretty offensive. I'm not trying to "get away" with anything.
Your posts tell a different story.
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On August 08 2013 08:24 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 08:23 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:17 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:14 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:53 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:48 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:46 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:45 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:42 farvacola wrote:On August 08 2013 07:40 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
[quote]
You're taking this too personally. I've never said that you, personally, are afraid to have sex with a trans person. If this was personal, I know *I* wouldn't want to have sex with you even if you for some reason wanted to have it with me.
I get it if they clarify first. If they already have their mouth on my genitals or their penis in me, I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that they want it. This is the definition of slut shaming.....particularly sinc you keep referencing clubs and places where alcohol and drugs are common. I would contend that me being called a "predator" and a "rapist" is more slut-shaming than me enjoying being a slut with someone else being a slut. What? That makes no sense, and you know it makes no sense. Please make sense. It makes sense because all I do is enjoy my sexuality by the same standards and practices reasonably assumable as everyone else, but I'm in the wrong for doing so. No. The standard I hold you to is universal. It's a standard I have built from fetish scenes in which predators are pretty common and do an awful lot of very rapey stuff. If you suspect the other person doesn't want you to do X then you check. If they're really headspaced and you have reason to doubt their answer then you ignore their yes and stop the scene anyway. You protect your partner. You are in the wrong for doing it because you are acting like being trans isn't a big deal when to a lot of people it is. Those people still have rights. You can want to be cis all you want but you are not and never will be and for those people, that is an issue. You are in the wrong for having a predatory approach to those people. You lost the birth lottery, you were born trans and that sucks for you but that does not give you the right to go "if I wasn't trans this behaviour would be fine therefore it's fine". Those people have rights and you need to understand that and respect them. The kink scene is not the same as a vanilla hook up and I'm pretty sure you know this. "Those people" have the right to tell me they don't want to have sex with someone they consider to be transsexual. They have the right to speak up. They do not have the right to make me responsible for their feelings. That's called entitlement. People absolutely are entitled to have consideration of their wishes taken into account before you do sex stuff to them, rather than simply thinking of "can I get way with it?" and "do I want to do it". Going "that's entitlement" doesn't explain why the thing is bad. The moral principles about consent within the kink scenes apply generally. If someone doesn't want something you don't do it. That simple. I think you have this propaganda image of me in your mind akin to the "greedy jew", rubbing my hands together, scheming, and going "mwhahahaha!". It's pretty offensive. I'm not trying to "get away" with anything. Your posts tell a different story.
Maybe it's because of your perception that insists there's a universal law that says I have a different set of rules I must abide by that other people don't?
I'm still not down with this idea that I have to assume that people are more willing to have a problem with me than enjoy me.
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On August 08 2013 08:23 RaspberrySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 08:17 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:14 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:53 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:48 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:46 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:45 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:42 farvacola wrote:On August 08 2013 07:40 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:36 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Stop painting me as someone afraid of sex with a trans person. I am not.
The numbers are a fact. It'd be easier for you if they weren't, but they are, and you know they are and it makes your behaviour inexcusable. There is a colossal imbalance in the information between the parties. Your partner knows that he shares criteria with, for the purpose of argument, 50% of people. You know you have a condition which affects roughly 0.01% of people. This means you are going into this with a 50% chance of violating someone if you do nothing whereas they are going into this with a 0.01% chance of being violated. If you know these numbers (hypothetical, just for the example) and you go "fuck it, that's their problem if they didn't want to have sex with a trans person", you're a predator. You know there is a reasonable chance that your partner does not want this but because you do want it you simply choose not to address that.
This isn't a "I shouldn't have to" or a "it's not fair" or anything else. Whining about how you shouldn't have to doesn't chance shit, you're not trying to tick boxes, you're trying to protect the individuals involved from something they do not want. This is a moral obligation.
Do you understand that sex with someone who doesn't want sex with you (but doesn't know) is a bad thing? Can you at least get that? You're taking this too personally. I've never said that you, personally, are afraid to have sex with a trans person. If this was personal, I know *I* wouldn't want to have sex with you even if you for some reason wanted to have it with me. I get it if they clarify first. If they already have their mouth on my genitals or their penis in me, I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that they want it. This is the definition of slut shaming.....particularly sinc you keep referencing clubs and places where alcohol and drugs are common. I would contend that me being called a "predator" and a "rapist" is more slut-shaming than me enjoying being a slut with someone else being a slut. What? That makes no sense, and you know it makes no sense. Please make sense. It makes sense because all I do is enjoy my sexuality by the same standards and practices reasonably assumable as everyone else, but I'm in the wrong for doing so. No. The standard I hold you to is universal. It's a standard I have built from fetish scenes in which predators are pretty common and do an awful lot of very rapey stuff. If you suspect the other person doesn't want you to do X then you check. If they're really headspaced and you have reason to doubt their answer then you ignore their yes and stop the scene anyway. You protect your partner. You are in the wrong for doing it because you are acting like being trans isn't a big deal when to a lot of people it is. Those people still have rights. You can want to be cis all you want but you are not and never will be and for those people, that is an issue. You are in the wrong for having a predatory approach to those people. You lost the birth lottery, you were born trans and that sucks for you but that does not give you the right to go "if I wasn't trans this behaviour would be fine therefore it's fine". Those people have rights and you need to understand that and respect them. The kink scene is not the same as a vanilla hook up and I'm pretty sure you know this. "Those people" have the right to tell me they don't want to have sex with someone they consider to be transsexual. They have the right to speak up. They do not have the right to make me responsible for their feelings. That's called entitlement. People absolutely are entitled to have consideration of their wishes taken into account before you do sex stuff to them, rather than simply thinking of "can I get way with it?" and "do I want to do it". Going "that's entitlement" doesn't explain why the thing is bad. The moral principles about consent within the kink scenes apply generally. If someone doesn't want something you don't do it. That simple. I think you have this propaganda image of me in your mind akin to the "greedy jew", rubbing my hands together, scheming, and going "mwhahahaha!". It's pretty offensive. I'm not trying to "get away" with anything.
Dude, put down the shovel and reconsider your attitude.
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On August 08 2013 08:02 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 07:54 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 07:37 maybenexttime wrote:On August 08 2013 07:36 ComaDose wrote:On August 08 2013 07:34 maybenexttime wrote:On August 08 2013 07:29 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:19 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:17 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:14 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:11 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
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Now you're suggesting an even more general concept of me not being a decent human being.
I'm sorry that your interpretation of reality isn't quite secure enough that you need to shore it up with ever-more grandiose negative labels.
My stance is that I refuse to be responsible for someone else's unrealities. Prejudice and bigotry are learned behaviors. Oddly enough, the common consensus is that prejudiced and bigoted person's feelings "should" (that magic word) be respected. Are prejudiced and bigoted people more qualifying as "decent human beings" than I am now?
The reality in the discussed topic is that someone enjoys a very real experience with someone else. However, the unreality of their learned prejudices and fears has so much more importance placed upon it that it can override and negate that enjoyment.
I am a predator because I prefer reality over imagination.
Cool. I can live with that. See, this is it. This is why you're a predator. It's not that you don't know other people can have preferences which impact their consent with you, you simply think you know better, you just don't care. It doesn't matter whether they're afraid that you're a man any more than it would matter if they were afraid you were a bear, if someone doesn't want to have sex with you then you don't get to make their decision for them. It's that fucking simple. You're a predator. Bolded for emphasis. Who better knows ourselves than ourselves? Your reality is not mine. I'm sorry if that makes you uncomfortable. It doesn't matter what you know. If someone doesn't want to have sex with you because they think you're a bear, even though it's a ridiculous assumption, you don't get to simply force yourself on them because you know you're not. How are you not getting this? You keep repeating "I know their criteria for consent better than they do", it's no different from "she said "no" but I knew she wanted it". Literally no different. No, I don't know their criteria for consent because they haven't told me. I will state, however, that if they are groping me and grinding their penis into my ass, it is not my responsibility to be the one who comes out of the moment to clarify that they know what they are doing. I can't stress this enough: I am not responsible for knowing someone else's hangups. The numbers can be invoked all you want. It's fundamentally dishonest and unequal to place the responsibility of determining a person's understanding and interpretation of reality on me especially when the determination of what is relevant and irrelevant is arbitrarily determined by each individual. If there is honest equality, each individual is responsible for declaring their own hangups. "Reasonable assumption" has the same fallacies of "common sense." My interest is reality. Your's is protecting your imagination. Same reasoning can be applied to defend rape by impersonation... well no. in that situation they are strangers Or, in other words, not disclosing information upon which the consent hinges... i dont think you can just equate rape by impersonation with not disclosing information upon which the consent may or may not hinge (even if it is reasonable to assume that it does) because one of them has intentional misleading. also i wasn't saying that they were right i was just saying that you were wrong. I am not equating them. That's why I said the same line of defense can be used for both. I did not say they are the same. But they are similar. One could argue that transsexual women doing everything to make themselves as indistinguishable from cis women is misleading. If the transsexual person is aware of the fact that many/most people would not want to have sex with them and does not disclose that piece of information, then that could be considered intentional misleading. Anyway, the rape by impersonation also relies of assumptions. It's not clear whether they wouldn't have had sex with you, had they known. It's only assumed to be true. Maybe they were just attracted to you? After all, they consented, right?
And i am saying the same line of defense cannot be used for both becuase for one you would have to justify why you were intentionally misleading.
and if one argued that a transsexual woman doing everything to make themselves as indistinguishable from a cis woman is misleading one would be foolish. cis women and trans women both happen to want to look attractive. they are not impersonating a cis woman they are a woman.
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On August 08 2013 08:14 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 08:12 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:05 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:04 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:01 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:57 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:55 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:49 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:47 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:46 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
To people who want sex with cis people a trans person is impersonating a cis person. And it doesn't matter that the trans person is just a person because you don't get to decide someone else's criteria for consent for them. If they don't want to have sex with a trans person and you're a trans person then feel free to explain to them that they're dumb for making the distinction but do not not disclose. How are they impersonating a cis person? Because 99.99% of people are cis. People are not seen as possibly trans, probably cis. They're just seen as cis. But they aren't impersonating someone different than themselves. It's obviously not the same thing. Yes, and yet the other person assumes they are cis because 99.99% of people are cis. The other person got it wrong, they made an incorrect assumption and they don't know it. The trans person knows though, they know that the other person is assuming they're something they're not, and they choose to not disclose. It's impersonation. But it's not like the person is different before and after you tell them. It's still the same person. It's not like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I'm actually FRED! Bwahaha!" That's impersonation. You're pretending to be another person. It's more like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I used to be Georgia, by the way." Again, the person assuming George was always George is getting it wrong, they are making a false assumption which is in no way the fault of the trans person. However the trans person is aware this is happening (assuming they didn't meet in a trans bar) and then actively chooses not to correct them. At this point it's impersonation. The same way that if the twin was walking down the street and his brother's wife approached him he might not explicitly claim to be his brother but he knows that she's assuming he is. Fred and George are twins from Harry Potter. That's exactly the distinction I was making. Then I think we agree? Not disclosing the mistaken identity is no different to impersonation if you're aware of their false assumption. What? No. I'm saying the two situations are obviously different, because there's no mistaken identity going on at all.
The analogy just taps into your intuition that, at least sometimes, it would be wrong to obtain sexual consent when you know your partner would not agree if she knew you were the wrong twin, and where you know she will feel cheated upon finding out. Taking advantage of the false assumption about identity seems like a dastardly thing to do.
There is, of course, a difference between being mistaken for your twin, and being mistaken for a non-transsexual. They are about different sorts of characteristics, and there is less certainty about whether your partner will feel cheated or not.
To me, it seems the important principle is to neither intentionally mislead nor take advantage of false assumptions, but to let your partner know about whatever she would reasonably be expected to care about. If it is instead the technicality of what sort of lacking information the consent is based on, then indeed the analogy misses the point.
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United States42638 Posts
On August 08 2013 08:21 RaspberrySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 08:17 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:14 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:53 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:48 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:46 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:45 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:42 farvacola wrote:On August 08 2013 07:40 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:36 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Stop painting me as someone afraid of sex with a trans person. I am not.
The numbers are a fact. It'd be easier for you if they weren't, but they are, and you know they are and it makes your behaviour inexcusable. There is a colossal imbalance in the information between the parties. Your partner knows that he shares criteria with, for the purpose of argument, 50% of people. You know you have a condition which affects roughly 0.01% of people. This means you are going into this with a 50% chance of violating someone if you do nothing whereas they are going into this with a 0.01% chance of being violated. If you know these numbers (hypothetical, just for the example) and you go "fuck it, that's their problem if they didn't want to have sex with a trans person", you're a predator. You know there is a reasonable chance that your partner does not want this but because you do want it you simply choose not to address that.
This isn't a "I shouldn't have to" or a "it's not fair" or anything else. Whining about how you shouldn't have to doesn't chance shit, you're not trying to tick boxes, you're trying to protect the individuals involved from something they do not want. This is a moral obligation.
Do you understand that sex with someone who doesn't want sex with you (but doesn't know) is a bad thing? Can you at least get that? You're taking this too personally. I've never said that you, personally, are afraid to have sex with a trans person. If this was personal, I know *I* wouldn't want to have sex with you even if you for some reason wanted to have it with me. I get it if they clarify first. If they already have their mouth on my genitals or their penis in me, I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that they want it. This is the definition of slut shaming.....particularly sinc you keep referencing clubs and places where alcohol and drugs are common. I would contend that me being called a "predator" and a "rapist" is more slut-shaming than me enjoying being a slut with someone else being a slut. What? That makes no sense, and you know it makes no sense. Please make sense. It makes sense because all I do is enjoy my sexuality by the same standards and practices reasonably assumable as everyone else, but I'm in the wrong for doing so. No. The standard I hold you to is universal. It's a standard I have built from fetish scenes in which predators are pretty common and do an awful lot of very rapey stuff. If you suspect the other person doesn't want you to do X then you check. If they're really headspaced and you have reason to doubt their answer then you ignore their yes and stop the scene anyway. You protect your partner. You are in the wrong for doing it because you are acting like being trans isn't a big deal when to a lot of people it is. Those people still have rights. You can want to be cis all you want but you are not and never will be and for those people, that is an issue. You are in the wrong for having a predatory approach to those people. You lost the birth lottery, you were born trans and that sucks for you but that does not give you the right to go "if I wasn't trans this behaviour would be fine therefore it's fine". Those people have rights and you need to understand that and respect them. The kink scene is not the same as a vanilla hook up and I'm pretty sure you know this. "Those people" have the right to tell me they don't want to have sex with someone they consider to be transsexual. They have the right to speak up. They do not have the right to make me responsible for their feelings. That's called entitlement. Isn't that the exact opposite of how the kink scene works? You have to constantly and especially aware of other people's feelings because you are even more responsible than usual. Come on, how do you not consider yourself a predator after typing that? Communicating limitations beforehand and using safewords is how I kink. If I'm in the "dominant" position and don't care about feeling like a glorified sex toy for a while, I'll agree to only doing what they say they want done without deviation. However, since that quickly leaves me feeling distant and inhuman, I don't do it very much.
There's an awful lot of abuse within the scene where people tick the boxes and do whatever the fuck they like because it's damn near impossible to prosecute. Once you let someone tie you up the law pretty much assumes you've abdicated your body to them, even if you prenegotiated the scene. It's bullshit and it's really, really rapey and there is a moral obligation on whoever has the power to protect their partner. That means that if you're doing a no safeword scene (would not recommend) you do not venture outside prenegotiated acts, if they go incommunicative (so headspaced they are unable to utter the safeword) you safeword for them if in doubt, if they consent while headspaced but you have reason to doubt it you ignore it. Above all you protect your partner and yourself from harm. And they do the same, ensuring that you're not over your head, that you know what they want and so forth.
It is not enough to have an excuse for your behaviour. When shit goes wrong people get hurt, you don't want to be able to go "yeah but they didn't safeword so I thought it was fine", you want shit not to go wrong. What that means is that you understand that you have a responsibility for the wellbeing of your partner, you need to understand the limitations of the system of consent and act beyond them to protect your partner.
Everything you have said tonight about it not being your responsibility, about their actions during signalling consent, about having to explicitly rule things out, the overriding their wishes because you know better and the rest of it paints you as a predator. You have shown a fundamental failure to understand that consent is a tool designed to protect people, that the goal is not to do harm, not simply to cover your own ass. Your approach to sex is selfish and abusive, your approach to consent is to treat it like an obstacle, your approach to shit going wrong is "that's their issue", you are a predator.
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EPT
