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On August 08 2013 09:00 Caihead wrote:
Hey RaspberrySC2, what if your partner rejects you simply because you were born ugly, or not well endowed, or in a poor financial situation, or a billion other reasons that people base their consent on arbitrarily, many of which have nothing to do with sexuality? Even if their rationality is flawed and prejudiced, it's still their right to consent and your responsibility to adhere to it, this applies regardless of what their rationality is. If you can not convince them in a moral manner through communication then you have to disengage.
It sucks to have limited choices and to not be able to be fulfilled or reaffirmed, but that's the reality of the situation in any social relationship.
If they say "no", I don't go. It's their right to say no.
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On August 08 2013 09:00 Caihead wrote:
Hey RaspberrySC2, what if your partner rejects you simply because you were born ugly, or not well endowed, or in a poor financial situation, or a billion other reasons that people base their consent on arbitrarily, many of which have nothing to do with sexuality? Even if their rationality is flawed and prejudiced, it's still their right to consent and your responsibility to adhere to it, this applies regardless of what their rationality is. If you can not convince them in a moral manner through communication then you have to disengage.
It sucks to have limited choices and to not be able to be fulfilled or reaffirmed, but that's the reality of the situation in any social relationship.
i think shes talking about disclosure and you are not obligated to disclose any of those things.
but yeah it would be wrong if they were like "i don't want to have sex with a trans person" and then they didn't disclose and tried to have sex with them.
but i don't think she would do that.
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On August 08 2013 08:56 RaspberrySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 08:51 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:50 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:43 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:36 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:32 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:21 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:17 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:14 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:53 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
No. The standard I hold you to is universal. It's a standard I have built from fetish scenes in which predators are pretty common and do an awful lot of very rapey stuff. If you suspect the other person doesn't want you to do X then you check. If they're really headspaced and you have reason to doubt their answer then you ignore their yes and stop the scene anyway. You protect your partner.
You are in the wrong for doing it because you are acting like being trans isn't a big deal when to a lot of people it is. Those people still have rights. You can want to be cis all you want but you are not and never will be and for those people, that is an issue. You are in the wrong for having a predatory approach to those people. You lost the birth lottery, you were born trans and that sucks for you but that does not give you the right to go "if I wasn't trans this behaviour would be fine therefore it's fine". Those people have rights and you need to understand that and respect them. The kink scene is not the same as a vanilla hook up and I'm pretty sure you know this. "Those people" have the right to tell me they don't want to have sex with someone they consider to be transsexual. They have the right to speak up. They do not have the right to make me responsible for their feelings. That's called entitlement. Isn't that the exact opposite of how the kink scene works? You have to constantly and especially aware of other people's feelings because you are even more responsible than usual. Come on, how do you not consider yourself a predator after typing that? Communicating limitations beforehand and using safewords is how I kink. If I'm in the "dominant" position and don't care about feeling like a glorified sex toy for a while, I'll agree to only doing what they say they want done without deviation. However, since that quickly leaves me feeling distant and inhuman, I don't do it very much. There's an awful lot of abuse within the scene where people tick the boxes and do whatever the fuck they like because it's damn near impossible to prosecute. Once you let someone tie you up the law pretty much assumes you've abdicated your body to them, even if you prenegotiated the scene. It's bullshit and it's really, really rapey and there is a moral obligation on whoever has the power to protect their partner. That means that if you're doing a no safeword scene (would not recommend) you do not venture outside prenegotiated acts, if they go incommunicative (so headspaced they are unable to utter the safeword) you safeword for them if in doubt, if they consent while headspaced but you have reason to doubt it you ignore it. Above all you protect your partner and yourself from harm. And they do the same, ensuring that you're not over your head, that you know what they want and so forth. It is not enough to have an excuse for your behaviour. When shit goes wrong people get hurt, you don't want to be able to go "yeah but they didn't safeword so I thought it was fine", you want shit not to go wrong. What that means is that you understand that you have a responsibility for the wellbeing of your partner, you need to understand the limitations of the system of consent and act beyond them to protect your partner. Everything you have said tonight about it not being your responsibility, about their actions during signalling consent, about having to explicitly rule things out, the overriding their wishes because you know better and the rest of it paints you as a predator. You have shown a fundamental failure to understand that consent is a tool designed to protect people, that the goal is not to do harm, not simply to cover your own ass. Your approach to sex is selfish and abusive, your approach to consent is to treat it like an obstacle, your approach to shit going wrong is "that's their issue", you are a predator. You're making a lot of declarations about my approach to a lot of things because I guess you have some sense of superiority and you're setting me up to be someone to speak against just so you can reify your own personal moral compass. You've gone all over the board with this thing when my basis of conversation has been the passionate hookup with no intention of ever speaking to someone again. If the goal is to prevent harm and enhance enjoyment. I am in no wrong here. "they didn't know they wouldn't have consented to it so no harm was done" Even if we ignore the possibility they'll find out, that's still not up to you and could just as easily be used to justify raping passed out drunk girls. But let's not ignore that possibility. Do you understand that you are doing harm to someone who fucks you if your status gets out and his friends are transphobic bullies? That he signed up for a night of fun with a cis girl and what he got was a lifetime of "you fucked a guy" jibes. I'm not doing harm. His transphobic friend bullies are doing the harm. STOP MAKING ME RESPONSIBLE FOR HOW OTHER PEOPLE FEEL AND ACT. PLEASE. And yet you could have stopped it. You knew you were doing it. You knew it was possible. But you wanted to get laid and you had an excuse ready and according to your very limited moral principles that was all you needed. Fuck that guy. It is not enough to have an excuse. You should want to protect your partner. You have the potential to do harm. You recognise that you have the potential to do harm. You should act accordingly. No. I am not inherently harmful or dangerous. How all of you interpret me is.Look. When I'm hooking up with someone, I'm not stressing over "but what if his friends 'find out' about me?" That is not my responsibility or obligation to go *that deep* into considering someone else's life situation. It is neither my fault or my problem or my issue how someone's friend's or family's bigotries play into the scheme. Are you serious with this?
I am actually pretty sure that everyone in the past 10 pages have stated quite specifically otherwise - that you are NOT inherently dangerous (or well, you specifically due to your, apparent through you posting, disregard for your sexual partners emotions). Sleeping with a transgender is however harmful to a person not wanting to sleep with a transgender due to his reasons. When such a person agrees to sleep with a transgender under the reasonable (due to the extreme rarity which transgenderism is) assumption that the transgender is cis, and the transgender does not correct this assumption, the transgender is indeed acting immoral.
This is no different than someone not wanting to sleep with red-bearded men and me, being cleanly shaven, not disclosing that I grow out a red beard (for this analogy to hold you will have to imagine that having a red beard is as rare as transgenderism). If the person for whatever illogical reason does not want to sleep with you, it is not okay to not disclose that information.
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On August 08 2013 09:02 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 08:56 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:51 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:50 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:43 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:36 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:32 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:21 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:17 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:14 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
[quote]
The kink scene is not the same as a vanilla hook up and I'm pretty sure you know this.
"Those people" have the right to tell me they don't want to have sex with someone they consider to be transsexual. They have the right to speak up. They do not have the right to make me responsible for their feelings. That's called entitlement. Isn't that the exact opposite of how the kink scene works? You have to constantly and especially aware of other people's feelings because you are even more responsible than usual. Come on, how do you not consider yourself a predator after typing that? Communicating limitations beforehand and using safewords is how I kink. If I'm in the "dominant" position and don't care about feeling like a glorified sex toy for a while, I'll agree to only doing what they say they want done without deviation. However, since that quickly leaves me feeling distant and inhuman, I don't do it very much. There's an awful lot of abuse within the scene where people tick the boxes and do whatever the fuck they like because it's damn near impossible to prosecute. Once you let someone tie you up the law pretty much assumes you've abdicated your body to them, even if you prenegotiated the scene. It's bullshit and it's really, really rapey and there is a moral obligation on whoever has the power to protect their partner. That means that if you're doing a no safeword scene (would not recommend) you do not venture outside prenegotiated acts, if they go incommunicative (so headspaced they are unable to utter the safeword) you safeword for them if in doubt, if they consent while headspaced but you have reason to doubt it you ignore it. Above all you protect your partner and yourself from harm. And they do the same, ensuring that you're not over your head, that you know what they want and so forth. It is not enough to have an excuse for your behaviour. When shit goes wrong people get hurt, you don't want to be able to go "yeah but they didn't safeword so I thought it was fine", you want shit not to go wrong. What that means is that you understand that you have a responsibility for the wellbeing of your partner, you need to understand the limitations of the system of consent and act beyond them to protect your partner. Everything you have said tonight about it not being your responsibility, about their actions during signalling consent, about having to explicitly rule things out, the overriding their wishes because you know better and the rest of it paints you as a predator. You have shown a fundamental failure to understand that consent is a tool designed to protect people, that the goal is not to do harm, not simply to cover your own ass. Your approach to sex is selfish and abusive, your approach to consent is to treat it like an obstacle, your approach to shit going wrong is "that's their issue", you are a predator. You're making a lot of declarations about my approach to a lot of things because I guess you have some sense of superiority and you're setting me up to be someone to speak against just so you can reify your own personal moral compass. You've gone all over the board with this thing when my basis of conversation has been the passionate hookup with no intention of ever speaking to someone again. If the goal is to prevent harm and enhance enjoyment. I am in no wrong here. "they didn't know they wouldn't have consented to it so no harm was done" Even if we ignore the possibility they'll find out, that's still not up to you and could just as easily be used to justify raping passed out drunk girls. But let's not ignore that possibility. Do you understand that you are doing harm to someone who fucks you if your status gets out and his friends are transphobic bullies? That he signed up for a night of fun with a cis girl and what he got was a lifetime of "you fucked a guy" jibes. I'm not doing harm. His transphobic friend bullies are doing the harm. STOP MAKING ME RESPONSIBLE FOR HOW OTHER PEOPLE FEEL AND ACT. PLEASE. And yet you could have stopped it. You knew you were doing it. You knew it was possible. But you wanted to get laid and you had an excuse ready and according to your very limited moral principles that was all you needed. Fuck that guy. It is not enough to have an excuse. You should want to protect your partner. You have the potential to do harm. You recognise that you have the potential to do harm. You should act accordingly. No. I am not inherently harmful or dangerous. How all of you interpret me is. Look. When I'm hooking up with someone, I'm not stressing over "but what if his friends 'find out' about me?" That is not my responsibility or obligation to go *that deep* into considering someone else's life situation. It is neither my fault or my problem or my issue how someone's friend's or family's bigotries play into the scheme. Are you serious with this? I am deadly serious. When I'm Domming I don't think "it's not my responsibility to look after them" because I want to make sure they don't get hurt because I have empathy and view them having a negative outcome as something to avoid. You are aware of your trans status, you are aware that for an awful lot of people it is an issue, you don't have that luxury. You do not have a right to sex with strangers, nobody does, what people do have a right to is informed consent. You are presenting this as you being simply incapable of consideration of others during sex. If you really are completely incapable of it, stop fucking people. Your right to sex does not outrank their right to consent, if you can't play safe, don't play at all. "I just didn't think about that while caught up in the moment"... Are you attempting for some kind of predator cliche record here?
You be the robot. I'll be the human.
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United States42653 Posts
On August 08 2013 09:04 RaspberrySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 09:02 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:56 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:51 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:50 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:43 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:36 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:32 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:21 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:17 DoubleReed wrote:
[quote]
Isn't that the exact opposite of how the kink scene works? You have to constantly and especially aware of other people's feelings because you are even more responsible than usual. Come on, how do you not consider yourself a predator after typing that? Communicating limitations beforehand and using safewords is how I kink. If I'm in the "dominant" position and don't care about feeling like a glorified sex toy for a while, I'll agree to only doing what they say they want done without deviation. However, since that quickly leaves me feeling distant and inhuman, I don't do it very much. There's an awful lot of abuse within the scene where people tick the boxes and do whatever the fuck they like because it's damn near impossible to prosecute. Once you let someone tie you up the law pretty much assumes you've abdicated your body to them, even if you prenegotiated the scene. It's bullshit and it's really, really rapey and there is a moral obligation on whoever has the power to protect their partner. That means that if you're doing a no safeword scene (would not recommend) you do not venture outside prenegotiated acts, if they go incommunicative (so headspaced they are unable to utter the safeword) you safeword for them if in doubt, if they consent while headspaced but you have reason to doubt it you ignore it. Above all you protect your partner and yourself from harm. And they do the same, ensuring that you're not over your head, that you know what they want and so forth. It is not enough to have an excuse for your behaviour. When shit goes wrong people get hurt, you don't want to be able to go "yeah but they didn't safeword so I thought it was fine", you want shit not to go wrong. What that means is that you understand that you have a responsibility for the wellbeing of your partner, you need to understand the limitations of the system of consent and act beyond them to protect your partner. Everything you have said tonight about it not being your responsibility, about their actions during signalling consent, about having to explicitly rule things out, the overriding their wishes because you know better and the rest of it paints you as a predator. You have shown a fundamental failure to understand that consent is a tool designed to protect people, that the goal is not to do harm, not simply to cover your own ass. Your approach to sex is selfish and abusive, your approach to consent is to treat it like an obstacle, your approach to shit going wrong is "that's their issue", you are a predator. You're making a lot of declarations about my approach to a lot of things because I guess you have some sense of superiority and you're setting me up to be someone to speak against just so you can reify your own personal moral compass. You've gone all over the board with this thing when my basis of conversation has been the passionate hookup with no intention of ever speaking to someone again. If the goal is to prevent harm and enhance enjoyment. I am in no wrong here. "they didn't know they wouldn't have consented to it so no harm was done" Even if we ignore the possibility they'll find out, that's still not up to you and could just as easily be used to justify raping passed out drunk girls. But let's not ignore that possibility. Do you understand that you are doing harm to someone who fucks you if your status gets out and his friends are transphobic bullies? That he signed up for a night of fun with a cis girl and what he got was a lifetime of "you fucked a guy" jibes. I'm not doing harm. His transphobic friend bullies are doing the harm. STOP MAKING ME RESPONSIBLE FOR HOW OTHER PEOPLE FEEL AND ACT. PLEASE. And yet you could have stopped it. You knew you were doing it. You knew it was possible. But you wanted to get laid and you had an excuse ready and according to your very limited moral principles that was all you needed. Fuck that guy. It is not enough to have an excuse. You should want to protect your partner. You have the potential to do harm. You recognise that you have the potential to do harm. You should act accordingly. No. I am not inherently harmful or dangerous. How all of you interpret me is. Look. When I'm hooking up with someone, I'm not stressing over "but what if his friends 'find out' about me?" That is not my responsibility or obligation to go *that deep* into considering someone else's life situation. It is neither my fault or my problem or my issue how someone's friend's or family's bigotries play into the scheme. Are you serious with this? I am deadly serious. When I'm Domming I don't think "it's not my responsibility to look after them" because I want to make sure they don't get hurt because I have empathy and view them having a negative outcome as something to avoid. You are aware of your trans status, you are aware that for an awful lot of people it is an issue, you don't have that luxury. You do not have a right to sex with strangers, nobody does, what people do have a right to is informed consent. You are presenting this as you being simply incapable of consideration of others during sex. If you really are completely incapable of it, stop fucking people. Your right to sex does not outrank their right to consent, if you can't play safe, don't play at all. "I just didn't think about that while caught up in the moment"... Are you attempting for some kind of predator cliche record here? You be the robot. I'll be the human.
A lot of humans are predators. That's a low standard to try and reach. You be the human predator, I'll be the human being.
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On August 08 2013 09:04 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 08:56 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:51 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:50 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:43 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:36 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:32 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:21 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:17 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:14 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
[quote]
The kink scene is not the same as a vanilla hook up and I'm pretty sure you know this.
"Those people" have the right to tell me they don't want to have sex with someone they consider to be transsexual. They have the right to speak up. They do not have the right to make me responsible for their feelings. That's called entitlement. Isn't that the exact opposite of how the kink scene works? You have to constantly and especially aware of other people's feelings because you are even more responsible than usual. Come on, how do you not consider yourself a predator after typing that? Communicating limitations beforehand and using safewords is how I kink. If I'm in the "dominant" position and don't care about feeling like a glorified sex toy for a while, I'll agree to only doing what they say they want done without deviation. However, since that quickly leaves me feeling distant and inhuman, I don't do it very much. There's an awful lot of abuse within the scene where people tick the boxes and do whatever the fuck they like because it's damn near impossible to prosecute. Once you let someone tie you up the law pretty much assumes you've abdicated your body to them, even if you prenegotiated the scene. It's bullshit and it's really, really rapey and there is a moral obligation on whoever has the power to protect their partner. That means that if you're doing a no safeword scene (would not recommend) you do not venture outside prenegotiated acts, if they go incommunicative (so headspaced they are unable to utter the safeword) you safeword for them if in doubt, if they consent while headspaced but you have reason to doubt it you ignore it. Above all you protect your partner and yourself from harm. And they do the same, ensuring that you're not over your head, that you know what they want and so forth. It is not enough to have an excuse for your behaviour. When shit goes wrong people get hurt, you don't want to be able to go "yeah but they didn't safeword so I thought it was fine", you want shit not to go wrong. What that means is that you understand that you have a responsibility for the wellbeing of your partner, you need to understand the limitations of the system of consent and act beyond them to protect your partner. Everything you have said tonight about it not being your responsibility, about their actions during signalling consent, about having to explicitly rule things out, the overriding their wishes because you know better and the rest of it paints you as a predator. You have shown a fundamental failure to understand that consent is a tool designed to protect people, that the goal is not to do harm, not simply to cover your own ass. Your approach to sex is selfish and abusive, your approach to consent is to treat it like an obstacle, your approach to shit going wrong is "that's their issue", you are a predator. You're making a lot of declarations about my approach to a lot of things because I guess you have some sense of superiority and you're setting me up to be someone to speak against just so you can reify your own personal moral compass. You've gone all over the board with this thing when my basis of conversation has been the passionate hookup with no intention of ever speaking to someone again. If the goal is to prevent harm and enhance enjoyment. I am in no wrong here. "they didn't know they wouldn't have consented to it so no harm was done" Even if we ignore the possibility they'll find out, that's still not up to you and could just as easily be used to justify raping passed out drunk girls. But let's not ignore that possibility. Do you understand that you are doing harm to someone who fucks you if your status gets out and his friends are transphobic bullies? That he signed up for a night of fun with a cis girl and what he got was a lifetime of "you fucked a guy" jibes. I'm not doing harm. His transphobic friend bullies are doing the harm. STOP MAKING ME RESPONSIBLE FOR HOW OTHER PEOPLE FEEL AND ACT. PLEASE. And yet you could have stopped it. You knew you were doing it. You knew it was possible. But you wanted to get laid and you had an excuse ready and according to your very limited moral principles that was all you needed. Fuck that guy. It is not enough to have an excuse. You should want to protect your partner. You have the potential to do harm. You recognise that you have the potential to do harm. You should act accordingly. No. I am not inherently harmful or dangerous. How all of you interpret me is.Look. When I'm hooking up with someone, I'm not stressing over "but what if his friends 'find out' about me?" That is not my responsibility or obligation to go *that deep* into considering someone else's life situation. It is neither my fault or my problem or my issue how someone's friend's or family's bigotries play into the scheme. Are you serious with this? I am actually pretty sure that everyone in the past 10 pages have stated quite specifically otherwise. Sleeping with a transgender is however harmful to a person not wanting to sleep with a transgender due to his reasons. When such a person agrees to sleep with a transgender under the reasonable (due to the extreme rarity which transgenderism is) assumption that the transgender is cis, and the transgender does not correct this assumption, the transgender is indeed acting immoral. This is no different than someone not wanting to sleep with red-bearded men and me, being cleanly shaven, not disclosing that I grow out a red beard (for this analogy to hold you will have to imagine that having a red beard is as rare as transgenderism). If the person for whatever illogical reason does not want to sleep with you, it is not okay to not disclose that information.
It's also not your responsibility to find out if the have a thing against red-bearded people if they don't even suggest that they do.
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I was actually pretty curious about the roommate thing. Back when I was looking for a roomie, I had so many people say they were "LBGT friendly" but mentioning the word trans meant I would never hear back from 99% of them. And if I passed perfectly then I probably wouldn't disclose.
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On August 08 2013 09:05 RaspberrySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 09:04 Ghostcom wrote:On August 08 2013 08:56 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:51 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:50 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:43 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:36 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:32 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:21 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:17 DoubleReed wrote:
[quote]
Isn't that the exact opposite of how the kink scene works? You have to constantly and especially aware of other people's feelings because you are even more responsible than usual. Come on, how do you not consider yourself a predator after typing that? Communicating limitations beforehand and using safewords is how I kink. If I'm in the "dominant" position and don't care about feeling like a glorified sex toy for a while, I'll agree to only doing what they say they want done without deviation. However, since that quickly leaves me feeling distant and inhuman, I don't do it very much. There's an awful lot of abuse within the scene where people tick the boxes and do whatever the fuck they like because it's damn near impossible to prosecute. Once you let someone tie you up the law pretty much assumes you've abdicated your body to them, even if you prenegotiated the scene. It's bullshit and it's really, really rapey and there is a moral obligation on whoever has the power to protect their partner. That means that if you're doing a no safeword scene (would not recommend) you do not venture outside prenegotiated acts, if they go incommunicative (so headspaced they are unable to utter the safeword) you safeword for them if in doubt, if they consent while headspaced but you have reason to doubt it you ignore it. Above all you protect your partner and yourself from harm. And they do the same, ensuring that you're not over your head, that you know what they want and so forth. It is not enough to have an excuse for your behaviour. When shit goes wrong people get hurt, you don't want to be able to go "yeah but they didn't safeword so I thought it was fine", you want shit not to go wrong. What that means is that you understand that you have a responsibility for the wellbeing of your partner, you need to understand the limitations of the system of consent and act beyond them to protect your partner. Everything you have said tonight about it not being your responsibility, about their actions during signalling consent, about having to explicitly rule things out, the overriding their wishes because you know better and the rest of it paints you as a predator. You have shown a fundamental failure to understand that consent is a tool designed to protect people, that the goal is not to do harm, not simply to cover your own ass. Your approach to sex is selfish and abusive, your approach to consent is to treat it like an obstacle, your approach to shit going wrong is "that's their issue", you are a predator. You're making a lot of declarations about my approach to a lot of things because I guess you have some sense of superiority and you're setting me up to be someone to speak against just so you can reify your own personal moral compass. You've gone all over the board with this thing when my basis of conversation has been the passionate hookup with no intention of ever speaking to someone again. If the goal is to prevent harm and enhance enjoyment. I am in no wrong here. "they didn't know they wouldn't have consented to it so no harm was done" Even if we ignore the possibility they'll find out, that's still not up to you and could just as easily be used to justify raping passed out drunk girls. But let's not ignore that possibility. Do you understand that you are doing harm to someone who fucks you if your status gets out and his friends are transphobic bullies? That he signed up for a night of fun with a cis girl and what he got was a lifetime of "you fucked a guy" jibes. I'm not doing harm. His transphobic friend bullies are doing the harm. STOP MAKING ME RESPONSIBLE FOR HOW OTHER PEOPLE FEEL AND ACT. PLEASE. And yet you could have stopped it. You knew you were doing it. You knew it was possible. But you wanted to get laid and you had an excuse ready and according to your very limited moral principles that was all you needed. Fuck that guy. It is not enough to have an excuse. You should want to protect your partner. You have the potential to do harm. You recognise that you have the potential to do harm. You should act accordingly. No. I am not inherently harmful or dangerous. How all of you interpret me is.Look. When I'm hooking up with someone, I'm not stressing over "but what if his friends 'find out' about me?" That is not my responsibility or obligation to go *that deep* into considering someone else's life situation. It is neither my fault or my problem or my issue how someone's friend's or family's bigotries play into the scheme. Are you serious with this? I am actually pretty sure that everyone in the past 10 pages have stated quite specifically otherwise. Sleeping with a transgender is however harmful to a person not wanting to sleep with a transgender due to his reasons. When such a person agrees to sleep with a transgender under the reasonable (due to the extreme rarity which transgenderism is) assumption that the transgender is cis, and the transgender does not correct this assumption, the transgender is indeed acting immoral. This is no different than someone not wanting to sleep with red-bearded men and me, being cleanly shaven, not disclosing that I grow out a red beard (for this analogy to hold you will have to imagine that having a red beard is as rare as transgenderism). If the person for whatever illogical reason does not want to sleep with you, it is not okay to not disclose that information. It's also not your responsibility to find out if the have a thing against red-bearded people if they don't even suggest that they do.
If a major proportion of the population does - yes it is. It sucks that we as a society haven't developed further, but that is the case with transgenderism.
EDIT: @ above post by Shinosai: I have no idea about why you didn't hear back, but when I was looking for roommates I didn't hear back from 9/10 places - and I am a heterosexual, white male doctor. It hardly gets more respectable on paper.
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On August 08 2013 09:03 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 09:01 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:54 KwarK wrote:
Predators aren't predators because they don't have excuses for their behaviour and why it wasn't really their responsibility to make sure their partner was okay and so forth. Predators are predators because that's all they have, while the other person got hurt.
You are a predator. Victims are victims because they choose not to take responsibility for themselves. That's easy. So again, fuck those guys, they were irresponsible, who cares if they got hurt and I could have stopped it and didn't.
I didn't say "fuck those guys".
By all means, if someone wants to talk it out with me, I'll buy them a cup of coffee.
I'm still not responsible for their feelings after the fact though.
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United States42653 Posts
On August 08 2013 09:05 RaspberrySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 09:04 Ghostcom wrote:On August 08 2013 08:56 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:51 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:50 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:43 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:36 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:32 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:21 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:17 DoubleReed wrote:
[quote]
Isn't that the exact opposite of how the kink scene works? You have to constantly and especially aware of other people's feelings because you are even more responsible than usual. Come on, how do you not consider yourself a predator after typing that? Communicating limitations beforehand and using safewords is how I kink. If I'm in the "dominant" position and don't care about feeling like a glorified sex toy for a while, I'll agree to only doing what they say they want done without deviation. However, since that quickly leaves me feeling distant and inhuman, I don't do it very much. There's an awful lot of abuse within the scene where people tick the boxes and do whatever the fuck they like because it's damn near impossible to prosecute. Once you let someone tie you up the law pretty much assumes you've abdicated your body to them, even if you prenegotiated the scene. It's bullshit and it's really, really rapey and there is a moral obligation on whoever has the power to protect their partner. That means that if you're doing a no safeword scene (would not recommend) you do not venture outside prenegotiated acts, if they go incommunicative (so headspaced they are unable to utter the safeword) you safeword for them if in doubt, if they consent while headspaced but you have reason to doubt it you ignore it. Above all you protect your partner and yourself from harm. And they do the same, ensuring that you're not over your head, that you know what they want and so forth. It is not enough to have an excuse for your behaviour. When shit goes wrong people get hurt, you don't want to be able to go "yeah but they didn't safeword so I thought it was fine", you want shit not to go wrong. What that means is that you understand that you have a responsibility for the wellbeing of your partner, you need to understand the limitations of the system of consent and act beyond them to protect your partner. Everything you have said tonight about it not being your responsibility, about their actions during signalling consent, about having to explicitly rule things out, the overriding their wishes because you know better and the rest of it paints you as a predator. You have shown a fundamental failure to understand that consent is a tool designed to protect people, that the goal is not to do harm, not simply to cover your own ass. Your approach to sex is selfish and abusive, your approach to consent is to treat it like an obstacle, your approach to shit going wrong is "that's their issue", you are a predator. You're making a lot of declarations about my approach to a lot of things because I guess you have some sense of superiority and you're setting me up to be someone to speak against just so you can reify your own personal moral compass. You've gone all over the board with this thing when my basis of conversation has been the passionate hookup with no intention of ever speaking to someone again. If the goal is to prevent harm and enhance enjoyment. I am in no wrong here. "they didn't know they wouldn't have consented to it so no harm was done" Even if we ignore the possibility they'll find out, that's still not up to you and could just as easily be used to justify raping passed out drunk girls. But let's not ignore that possibility. Do you understand that you are doing harm to someone who fucks you if your status gets out and his friends are transphobic bullies? That he signed up for a night of fun with a cis girl and what he got was a lifetime of "you fucked a guy" jibes. I'm not doing harm. His transphobic friend bullies are doing the harm. STOP MAKING ME RESPONSIBLE FOR HOW OTHER PEOPLE FEEL AND ACT. PLEASE. And yet you could have stopped it. You knew you were doing it. You knew it was possible. But you wanted to get laid and you had an excuse ready and according to your very limited moral principles that was all you needed. Fuck that guy. It is not enough to have an excuse. You should want to protect your partner. You have the potential to do harm. You recognise that you have the potential to do harm. You should act accordingly. No. I am not inherently harmful or dangerous. How all of you interpret me is.Look. When I'm hooking up with someone, I'm not stressing over "but what if his friends 'find out' about me?" That is not my responsibility or obligation to go *that deep* into considering someone else's life situation. It is neither my fault or my problem or my issue how someone's friend's or family's bigotries play into the scheme. Are you serious with this? I am actually pretty sure that everyone in the past 10 pages have stated quite specifically otherwise. Sleeping with a transgender is however harmful to a person not wanting to sleep with a transgender due to his reasons. When such a person agrees to sleep with a transgender under the reasonable (due to the extreme rarity which transgenderism is) assumption that the transgender is cis, and the transgender does not correct this assumption, the transgender is indeed acting immoral. This is no different than someone not wanting to sleep with red-bearded men and me, being cleanly shaven, not disclosing that I grow out a red beard (for this analogy to hold you will have to imagine that having a red beard is as rare as transgenderism). If the person for whatever illogical reason does not want to sleep with you, it is not okay to not disclose that information. It's also not your responsibility to find out if the have a thing against red-bearded people if they don't even suggest that they do.
So you have an excuse if they do have a thing against them, even if most people do and you knew most people do. And if you have an excuse for your behaviour then you are above reproach and not in the least bit predatory, even if someone got hurt and you could have stopped it but chose not to because you wanted to get off.
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On August 08 2013 07:47 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 07:45 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:42 farvacola wrote:On August 08 2013 07:40 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:36 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:29 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:19 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:17 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:14 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:11 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
[quote]
Now you're suggesting an even more general concept of me not being a decent human being.
I'm sorry that your interpretation of reality isn't quite secure enough that you need to shore it up with ever-more grandiose negative labels.
My stance is that I refuse to be responsible for someone else's unrealities. Prejudice and bigotry are learned behaviors. Oddly enough, the common consensus is that prejudiced and bigoted person's feelings "should" (that magic word) be respected. Are prejudiced and bigoted people more qualifying as "decent human beings" than I am now?
The reality in the discussed topic is that someone enjoys a very real experience with someone else. However, the unreality of their learned prejudices and fears has so much more importance placed upon it that it can override and negate that enjoyment.
I am a predator because I prefer reality over imagination.
Cool. I can live with that. See, this is it. This is why you're a predator. It's not that you don't know other people can have preferences which impact their consent with you, you simply think you know better, you just don't care. It doesn't matter whether they're afraid that you're a man any more than it would matter if they were afraid you were a bear, if someone doesn't want to have sex with you then you don't get to make their decision for them. It's that fucking simple. You're a predator. Bolded for emphasis. Who better knows ourselves than ourselves? Your reality is not mine. I'm sorry if that makes you uncomfortable. It doesn't matter what you know. If someone doesn't want to have sex with you because they think you're a bear, even though it's a ridiculous assumption, you don't get to simply force yourself on them because you know you're not. How are you not getting this? You keep repeating "I know their criteria for consent better than they do", it's no different from "she said "no" but I knew she wanted it". Literally no different. No, I don't know their criteria for consent because they haven't told me. I will state, however, that if they are groping me and grinding their penis into my ass, it is not my responsibility to be the one who comes out of the moment to clarify that they know what they are doing. I can't stress this enough: I am not responsible for knowing someone else's hangups. The numbers can be invoked all you want. It's fundamentally dishonest and unequal to place the responsibility of determining a person's understanding and interpretation of reality on me especially when the determination of what is relevant and irrelevant is arbitrarily determined by each individual. If there is honest equality, each individual is responsible for declaring their own hangups. "Reasonable assumption" has the same fallacies of "common sense." My interest is reality. Your's is protecting your imagination. Stop painting me as someone afraid of sex with a trans person. I am not. The numbers are a fact. It'd be easier for you if they weren't, but they are, and you know they are and it makes your behaviour inexcusable. There is a colossal imbalance in the information between the parties. Your partner knows that he shares criteria with, for the purpose of argument, 50% of people. You know you have a condition which affects roughly 0.01% of people. This means you are going into this with a 50% chance of violating someone if you do nothing whereas they are going into this with a 0.01% chance of being violated. If you know these numbers (hypothetical, just for the example) and you go "fuck it, that's their problem if they didn't want to have sex with a trans person", you're a predator. You know there is a reasonable chance that your partner does not want this but because you do want it you simply choose not to address that. This isn't a "I shouldn't have to" or a "it's not fair" or anything else. Whining about how you shouldn't have to doesn't chance shit, you're not trying to tick boxes, you're trying to protect the individuals involved from something they do not want. This is a moral obligation. Do you understand that sex with someone who doesn't want sex with you (but doesn't know) is a bad thing? Can you at least get that? You're taking this too personally. I've never said that you, personally, are afraid to have sex with a trans person. If this was personal, I know *I* wouldn't want to have sex with you even if you for some reason wanted to have it with me. I get it if they clarify first. If they already have their mouth on my genitals or their penis in me, I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that they want it. This is the definition of slut shaming.....particularly sinc you keep referencing clubs and places where alcohol and drugs are common. I would contend that me being called a "predator" and a "rapist" is more slut-shaming than me enjoying being a slut with someone else being a slut. I'm a very sex positive feminist and have absolutely no issue with sluts. I love sluts, sluttiness and all things positive and sexual. You, however, are a predator. Not because I think your behaviour is slutty but because of your cavalier attitude to whether or not they want to have sex with you.
You are still arguing in this thread? You really went off the deep end in this thread dude. If two people want to have sex with each other, let them have sex. Stop calling someone a predator for consensual sex, its so weird.
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On August 08 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 08:14 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:12 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:05 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:04 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:01 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:57 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:55 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:49 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:47 DoubleReed wrote:
[quote]
How are they impersonating a cis person? Because 99.99% of people are cis. People are not seen as possibly trans, probably cis. They're just seen as cis. But they aren't impersonating someone different than themselves. It's obviously not the same thing. Yes, and yet the other person assumes they are cis because 99.99% of people are cis. The other person got it wrong, they made an incorrect assumption and they don't know it. The trans person knows though, they know that the other person is assuming they're something they're not, and they choose to not disclose. It's impersonation. But it's not like the person is different before and after you tell them. It's still the same person. It's not like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I'm actually FRED! Bwahaha!" That's impersonation. You're pretending to be another person. It's more like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I used to be Georgia, by the way." Again, the person assuming George was always George is getting it wrong, they are making a false assumption which is in no way the fault of the trans person. However the trans person is aware this is happening (assuming they didn't meet in a trans bar) and then actively chooses not to correct them. At this point it's impersonation. The same way that if the twin was walking down the street and his brother's wife approached him he might not explicitly claim to be his brother but he knows that she's assuming he is. Fred and George are twins from Harry Potter. That's exactly the distinction I was making. Then I think we agree? Not disclosing the mistaken identity is no different to impersonation if you're aware of their false assumption. What? No. I'm saying the two situations are obviously different, because there's no mistaken identity going on at all. Assuming someone is cis when they're actually trans is a mistaken identity.
Trans people don't have to tell cis people that they are trans unless they want to. Period. Get over it.
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On August 08 2013 09:06 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 09:05 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 09:04 Ghostcom wrote:On August 08 2013 08:56 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:51 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:50 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:43 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:36 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:32 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:21 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
[quote]
Communicating limitations beforehand and using safewords is how I kink. If I'm in the "dominant" position and don't care about feeling like a glorified sex toy for a while, I'll agree to only doing what they say they want done without deviation. However, since that quickly leaves me feeling distant and inhuman, I don't do it very much. There's an awful lot of abuse within the scene where people tick the boxes and do whatever the fuck they like because it's damn near impossible to prosecute. Once you let someone tie you up the law pretty much assumes you've abdicated your body to them, even if you prenegotiated the scene. It's bullshit and it's really, really rapey and there is a moral obligation on whoever has the power to protect their partner. That means that if you're doing a no safeword scene (would not recommend) you do not venture outside prenegotiated acts, if they go incommunicative (so headspaced they are unable to utter the safeword) you safeword for them if in doubt, if they consent while headspaced but you have reason to doubt it you ignore it. Above all you protect your partner and yourself from harm. And they do the same, ensuring that you're not over your head, that you know what they want and so forth. It is not enough to have an excuse for your behaviour. When shit goes wrong people get hurt, you don't want to be able to go "yeah but they didn't safeword so I thought it was fine", you want shit not to go wrong. What that means is that you understand that you have a responsibility for the wellbeing of your partner, you need to understand the limitations of the system of consent and act beyond them to protect your partner. Everything you have said tonight about it not being your responsibility, about their actions during signalling consent, about having to explicitly rule things out, the overriding their wishes because you know better and the rest of it paints you as a predator. You have shown a fundamental failure to understand that consent is a tool designed to protect people, that the goal is not to do harm, not simply to cover your own ass. Your approach to sex is selfish and abusive, your approach to consent is to treat it like an obstacle, your approach to shit going wrong is "that's their issue", you are a predator. You're making a lot of declarations about my approach to a lot of things because I guess you have some sense of superiority and you're setting me up to be someone to speak against just so you can reify your own personal moral compass. You've gone all over the board with this thing when my basis of conversation has been the passionate hookup with no intention of ever speaking to someone again. If the goal is to prevent harm and enhance enjoyment. I am in no wrong here. "they didn't know they wouldn't have consented to it so no harm was done" Even if we ignore the possibility they'll find out, that's still not up to you and could just as easily be used to justify raping passed out drunk girls. But let's not ignore that possibility. Do you understand that you are doing harm to someone who fucks you if your status gets out and his friends are transphobic bullies? That he signed up for a night of fun with a cis girl and what he got was a lifetime of "you fucked a guy" jibes. I'm not doing harm. His transphobic friend bullies are doing the harm. STOP MAKING ME RESPONSIBLE FOR HOW OTHER PEOPLE FEEL AND ACT. PLEASE. And yet you could have stopped it. You knew you were doing it. You knew it was possible. But you wanted to get laid and you had an excuse ready and according to your very limited moral principles that was all you needed. Fuck that guy. It is not enough to have an excuse. You should want to protect your partner. You have the potential to do harm. You recognise that you have the potential to do harm. You should act accordingly. No. I am not inherently harmful or dangerous. How all of you interpret me is.Look. When I'm hooking up with someone, I'm not stressing over "but what if his friends 'find out' about me?" That is not my responsibility or obligation to go *that deep* into considering someone else's life situation. It is neither my fault or my problem or my issue how someone's friend's or family's bigotries play into the scheme. Are you serious with this? I am actually pretty sure that everyone in the past 10 pages have stated quite specifically otherwise. Sleeping with a transgender is however harmful to a person not wanting to sleep with a transgender due to his reasons. When such a person agrees to sleep with a transgender under the reasonable (due to the extreme rarity which transgenderism is) assumption that the transgender is cis, and the transgender does not correct this assumption, the transgender is indeed acting immoral. This is no different than someone not wanting to sleep with red-bearded men and me, being cleanly shaven, not disclosing that I grow out a red beard (for this analogy to hold you will have to imagine that having a red beard is as rare as transgenderism). If the person for whatever illogical reason does not want to sleep with you, it is not okay to not disclose that information. It's also not your responsibility to find out if the have a thing against red-bearded people if they don't even suggest that they do. If a major proportion of the population does - yes it is. It sucks that we as a society haven't developed further, but that is the case with transgenderism. EDIT: @ above post by Shinosai: I have no idea about why you didn't hear back, but when I was looking for roommates I didn't hear back from 9/10 places - and I am a heterosexual, white male doctor. It hardly gets more respectable on paper.
I'm not responsible for society's prejudices. Stop trying to make me.
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On August 08 2013 08:19 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 08:17 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:14 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:12 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:05 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:04 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:01 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:57 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:55 DoubleReed wrote:
[quote]
But they aren't impersonating someone different than themselves. It's obviously not the same thing. Yes, and yet the other person assumes they are cis because 99.99% of people are cis. The other person got it wrong, they made an incorrect assumption and they don't know it. The trans person knows though, they know that the other person is assuming they're something they're not, and they choose to not disclose. It's impersonation. But it's not like the person is different before and after you tell them. It's still the same person. It's not like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I'm actually FRED! Bwahaha!" That's impersonation. You're pretending to be another person. It's more like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I used to be Georgia, by the way." Again, the person assuming George was always George is getting it wrong, they are making a false assumption which is in no way the fault of the trans person. However the trans person is aware this is happening (assuming they didn't meet in a trans bar) and then actively chooses not to correct them. At this point it's impersonation. The same way that if the twin was walking down the street and his brother's wife approached him he might not explicitly claim to be his brother but he knows that she's assuming he is. Fred and George are twins from Harry Potter. That's exactly the distinction I was making. Then I think we agree? Not disclosing the mistaken identity is no different to impersonation if you're aware of their false assumption. What? No. I'm saying the two situations are obviously different, because there's no mistaken identity going on at all. Assuming someone is cis when they're actually trans is a mistaken identity. Again, I fail to see how this is mistaken identity. George is George and is still as much George as George could ever be. You believe the only characteristic that makes up an identity is name? If I believe you are George the cis and you are in fact George the trans there has been a mistake made regarding your identity.
No its not. George is freaking George the man both times. How do you not get this?
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On August 08 2013 09:07 Smat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 07:47 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:45 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:42 farvacola wrote:On August 08 2013 07:40 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:36 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:29 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:19 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:17 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:14 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
See, this is it. This is why you're a predator. It's not that you don't know other people can have preferences which impact their consent with you, you simply think you know better, you just don't care.
It doesn't matter whether they're afraid that you're a man any more than it would matter if they were afraid you were a bear, if someone doesn't want to have sex with you then you don't get to make their decision for them. It's that fucking simple. You're a predator. Bolded for emphasis. Who better knows ourselves than ourselves? Your reality is not mine. I'm sorry if that makes you uncomfortable. It doesn't matter what you know. If someone doesn't want to have sex with you because they think you're a bear, even though it's a ridiculous assumption, you don't get to simply force yourself on them because you know you're not. How are you not getting this? You keep repeating "I know their criteria for consent better than they do", it's no different from "she said "no" but I knew she wanted it". Literally no different. No, I don't know their criteria for consent because they haven't told me. I will state, however, that if they are groping me and grinding their penis into my ass, it is not my responsibility to be the one who comes out of the moment to clarify that they know what they are doing. I can't stress this enough: I am not responsible for knowing someone else's hangups. The numbers can be invoked all you want. It's fundamentally dishonest and unequal to place the responsibility of determining a person's understanding and interpretation of reality on me especially when the determination of what is relevant and irrelevant is arbitrarily determined by each individual. If there is honest equality, each individual is responsible for declaring their own hangups. "Reasonable assumption" has the same fallacies of "common sense." My interest is reality. Your's is protecting your imagination. Stop painting me as someone afraid of sex with a trans person. I am not. The numbers are a fact. It'd be easier for you if they weren't, but they are, and you know they are and it makes your behaviour inexcusable. There is a colossal imbalance in the information between the parties. Your partner knows that he shares criteria with, for the purpose of argument, 50% of people. You know you have a condition which affects roughly 0.01% of people. This means you are going into this with a 50% chance of violating someone if you do nothing whereas they are going into this with a 0.01% chance of being violated. If you know these numbers (hypothetical, just for the example) and you go "fuck it, that's their problem if they didn't want to have sex with a trans person", you're a predator. You know there is a reasonable chance that your partner does not want this but because you do want it you simply choose not to address that. This isn't a "I shouldn't have to" or a "it's not fair" or anything else. Whining about how you shouldn't have to doesn't chance shit, you're not trying to tick boxes, you're trying to protect the individuals involved from something they do not want. This is a moral obligation. Do you understand that sex with someone who doesn't want sex with you (but doesn't know) is a bad thing? Can you at least get that? You're taking this too personally. I've never said that you, personally, are afraid to have sex with a trans person. If this was personal, I know *I* wouldn't want to have sex with you even if you for some reason wanted to have it with me. I get it if they clarify first. If they already have their mouth on my genitals or their penis in me, I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that they want it. This is the definition of slut shaming.....particularly sinc you keep referencing clubs and places where alcohol and drugs are common. I would contend that me being called a "predator" and a "rapist" is more slut-shaming than me enjoying being a slut with someone else being a slut. I'm a very sex positive feminist and have absolutely no issue with sluts. I love sluts, sluttiness and all things positive and sexual. You, however, are a predator. Not because I think your behaviour is slutty but because of your cavalier attitude to whether or not they want to have sex with you. You are still arguing in this thread? You really went off the deep end in this thread dude. If two people want to have sex with each other, let them have sex. Stop calling someone a predator for consensual sex, its so weird.
If you don't even understand the argument, perhaps you should stay out? The entire point is that the sex is not consensual.
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United States42653 Posts
On August 08 2013 09:07 Smat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 07:47 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:45 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:42 farvacola wrote:On August 08 2013 07:40 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:36 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:29 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:19 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 07:17 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 07:14 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
See, this is it. This is why you're a predator. It's not that you don't know other people can have preferences which impact their consent with you, you simply think you know better, you just don't care.
It doesn't matter whether they're afraid that you're a man any more than it would matter if they were afraid you were a bear, if someone doesn't want to have sex with you then you don't get to make their decision for them. It's that fucking simple. You're a predator. Bolded for emphasis. Who better knows ourselves than ourselves? Your reality is not mine. I'm sorry if that makes you uncomfortable. It doesn't matter what you know. If someone doesn't want to have sex with you because they think you're a bear, even though it's a ridiculous assumption, you don't get to simply force yourself on them because you know you're not. How are you not getting this? You keep repeating "I know their criteria for consent better than they do", it's no different from "she said "no" but I knew she wanted it". Literally no different. No, I don't know their criteria for consent because they haven't told me. I will state, however, that if they are groping me and grinding their penis into my ass, it is not my responsibility to be the one who comes out of the moment to clarify that they know what they are doing. I can't stress this enough: I am not responsible for knowing someone else's hangups. The numbers can be invoked all you want. It's fundamentally dishonest and unequal to place the responsibility of determining a person's understanding and interpretation of reality on me especially when the determination of what is relevant and irrelevant is arbitrarily determined by each individual. If there is honest equality, each individual is responsible for declaring their own hangups. "Reasonable assumption" has the same fallacies of "common sense." My interest is reality. Your's is protecting your imagination. Stop painting me as someone afraid of sex with a trans person. I am not. The numbers are a fact. It'd be easier for you if they weren't, but they are, and you know they are and it makes your behaviour inexcusable. There is a colossal imbalance in the information between the parties. Your partner knows that he shares criteria with, for the purpose of argument, 50% of people. You know you have a condition which affects roughly 0.01% of people. This means you are going into this with a 50% chance of violating someone if you do nothing whereas they are going into this with a 0.01% chance of being violated. If you know these numbers (hypothetical, just for the example) and you go "fuck it, that's their problem if they didn't want to have sex with a trans person", you're a predator. You know there is a reasonable chance that your partner does not want this but because you do want it you simply choose not to address that. This isn't a "I shouldn't have to" or a "it's not fair" or anything else. Whining about how you shouldn't have to doesn't chance shit, you're not trying to tick boxes, you're trying to protect the individuals involved from something they do not want. This is a moral obligation. Do you understand that sex with someone who doesn't want sex with you (but doesn't know) is a bad thing? Can you at least get that? You're taking this too personally. I've never said that you, personally, are afraid to have sex with a trans person. If this was personal, I know *I* wouldn't want to have sex with you even if you for some reason wanted to have it with me. I get it if they clarify first. If they already have their mouth on my genitals or their penis in me, I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that they want it. This is the definition of slut shaming.....particularly sinc you keep referencing clubs and places where alcohol and drugs are common. I would contend that me being called a "predator" and a "rapist" is more slut-shaming than me enjoying being a slut with someone else being a slut. I'm a very sex positive feminist and have absolutely no issue with sluts. I love sluts, sluttiness and all things positive and sexual. You, however, are a predator. Not because I think your behaviour is slutty but because of your cavalier attitude to whether or not they want to have sex with you. You are still arguing in this thread? You really went off the deep end in this thread dude. If two people want to have sex with each other, let them have sex. Stop calling someone a predator for consensual sex, its so weird.
You don't know enough about sex. Predators exist within the legal system for consent.
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United States42653 Posts
On August 08 2013 09:10 Smat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 08:19 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:17 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:15 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:14 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:12 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:05 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 08:04 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:01 DoubleReed wrote:On August 08 2013 07:57 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Yes, and yet the other person assumes they are cis because 99.99% of people are cis. The other person got it wrong, they made an incorrect assumption and they don't know it. The trans person knows though, they know that the other person is assuming they're something they're not, and they choose to not disclose. It's impersonation. But it's not like the person is different before and after you tell them. It's still the same person. It's not like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I'm actually FRED! Bwahaha!" That's impersonation. You're pretending to be another person. It's more like "Hi I'm George, let's have sex. *ugly bump* I used to be Georgia, by the way." Again, the person assuming George was always George is getting it wrong, they are making a false assumption which is in no way the fault of the trans person. However the trans person is aware this is happening (assuming they didn't meet in a trans bar) and then actively chooses not to correct them. At this point it's impersonation. The same way that if the twin was walking down the street and his brother's wife approached him he might not explicitly claim to be his brother but he knows that she's assuming he is. Fred and George are twins from Harry Potter. That's exactly the distinction I was making. Then I think we agree? Not disclosing the mistaken identity is no different to impersonation if you're aware of their false assumption. What? No. I'm saying the two situations are obviously different, because there's no mistaken identity going on at all. Assuming someone is cis when they're actually trans is a mistaken identity. Again, I fail to see how this is mistaken identity. George is George and is still as much George as George could ever be. You believe the only characteristic that makes up an identity is name? If I believe you are George the cis and you are in fact George the trans there has been a mistake made regarding your identity. No its not. George is freaking George the man both times. How do you not get this?
That's like saying George is George the mammal both times. Yes, both a trans man and a cis man are men. But George the trans man is not George the cis man.
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On August 08 2013 09:03 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 09:00 Caihead wrote:
Hey RaspberrySC2, what if your partner rejects you simply because you were born ugly, or not well endowed, or in a poor financial situation, or a billion other reasons that people base their consent on arbitrarily, many of which have nothing to do with sexuality? Even if their rationality is flawed and prejudiced, it's still their right to consent and your responsibility to adhere to it, this applies regardless of what their rationality is. If you can not convince them in a moral manner through communication then you have to disengage.
It sucks to have limited choices and to not be able to be fulfilled or reaffirmed, but that's the reality of the situation in any social relationship. i think shes talking about disclosure and you are not obligated to disclose any of those things. but yeah it would be wrong if they were like "i don't want to have sex with a trans person" and then they didn't disclose and tried to have sex with them. but i don't think she would do that.
Why is there even an argument about this then? If you are in a disadvantaged position and you don't want to disclose, usually the societal view is simply "tough shit". If I come from an uneducated background due to being born into poverty, regardless of how brilliant I am, when my employer is hiring on the basis of credentials they expect you to disclose that information; it puts you into a bad spot but you are expected to do it. When you have a sexual relationship you are EXPECTED to disclose your information, ALWAYS, unless parties agree explicitly NOT TO. The only difference being that the norm of non-trans people is considered common knowledge, you can immediately identify whether or not a person is male or female normally, and thus that information is ALREADY DISCLOSED.
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Trying to argue that you have the "right to have sex" is bizarre, as if sex is something that occurs abstractly and not an action that occurs immanently between you and an other. It's just another way of saying that there can be times where people owe you sex, which is obviously fucking absurd.
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On August 08 2013 09:09 RaspberrySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 09:06 Ghostcom wrote:On August 08 2013 09:05 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 09:04 Ghostcom wrote:On August 08 2013 08:56 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:51 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:50 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:43 KwarK wrote:On August 08 2013 08:36 RaspberrySC2 wrote:On August 08 2013 08:32 KwarK wrote:
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There's an awful lot of abuse within the scene where people tick the boxes and do whatever the fuck they like because it's damn near impossible to prosecute. Once you let someone tie you up the law pretty much assumes you've abdicated your body to them, even if you prenegotiated the scene. It's bullshit and it's really, really rapey and there is a moral obligation on whoever has the power to protect their partner. That means that if you're doing a no safeword scene (would not recommend) you do not venture outside prenegotiated acts, if they go incommunicative (so headspaced they are unable to utter the safeword) you safeword for them if in doubt, if they consent while headspaced but you have reason to doubt it you ignore it. Above all you protect your partner and yourself from harm. And they do the same, ensuring that you're not over your head, that you know what they want and so forth.
It is not enough to have an excuse for your behaviour. When shit goes wrong people get hurt, you don't want to be able to go "yeah but they didn't safeword so I thought it was fine", you want shit not to go wrong. What that means is that you understand that you have a responsibility for the wellbeing of your partner, you need to understand the limitations of the system of consent and act beyond them to protect your partner.
Everything you have said tonight about it not being your responsibility, about their actions during signalling consent, about having to explicitly rule things out, the overriding their wishes because you know better and the rest of it paints you as a predator. You have shown a fundamental failure to understand that consent is a tool designed to protect people, that the goal is not to do harm, not simply to cover your own ass. Your approach to sex is selfish and abusive, your approach to consent is to treat it like an obstacle, your approach to shit going wrong is "that's their issue", you are a predator. You're making a lot of declarations about my approach to a lot of things because I guess you have some sense of superiority and you're setting me up to be someone to speak against just so you can reify your own personal moral compass. You've gone all over the board with this thing when my basis of conversation has been the passionate hookup with no intention of ever speaking to someone again. If the goal is to prevent harm and enhance enjoyment. I am in no wrong here. "they didn't know they wouldn't have consented to it so no harm was done" Even if we ignore the possibility they'll find out, that's still not up to you and could just as easily be used to justify raping passed out drunk girls. But let's not ignore that possibility. Do you understand that you are doing harm to someone who fucks you if your status gets out and his friends are transphobic bullies? That he signed up for a night of fun with a cis girl and what he got was a lifetime of "you fucked a guy" jibes. I'm not doing harm. His transphobic friend bullies are doing the harm. STOP MAKING ME RESPONSIBLE FOR HOW OTHER PEOPLE FEEL AND ACT. PLEASE. And yet you could have stopped it. You knew you were doing it. You knew it was possible. But you wanted to get laid and you had an excuse ready and according to your very limited moral principles that was all you needed. Fuck that guy. It is not enough to have an excuse. You should want to protect your partner. You have the potential to do harm. You recognise that you have the potential to do harm. You should act accordingly. No. I am not inherently harmful or dangerous. How all of you interpret me is.Look. When I'm hooking up with someone, I'm not stressing over "but what if his friends 'find out' about me?" That is not my responsibility or obligation to go *that deep* into considering someone else's life situation. It is neither my fault or my problem or my issue how someone's friend's or family's bigotries play into the scheme. Are you serious with this? I am actually pretty sure that everyone in the past 10 pages have stated quite specifically otherwise. Sleeping with a transgender is however harmful to a person not wanting to sleep with a transgender due to his reasons. When such a person agrees to sleep with a transgender under the reasonable (due to the extreme rarity which transgenderism is) assumption that the transgender is cis, and the transgender does not correct this assumption, the transgender is indeed acting immoral. This is no different than someone not wanting to sleep with red-bearded men and me, being cleanly shaven, not disclosing that I grow out a red beard (for this analogy to hold you will have to imagine that having a red beard is as rare as transgenderism). If the person for whatever illogical reason does not want to sleep with you, it is not okay to not disclose that information. It's also not your responsibility to find out if the have a thing against red-bearded people if they don't even suggest that they do. If a major proportion of the population does - yes it is. It sucks that we as a society haven't developed further, but that is the case with transgenderism. EDIT: @ above post by Shinosai: I have no idea about why you didn't hear back, but when I was looking for roommates I didn't hear back from 9/10 places - and I am a heterosexual, white male doctor. It hardly gets more respectable on paper. I'm not responsible for society's prejudices. Stop trying to make me.
I am not trying to make you responsible for society's prejudice. I am trying to make you responsible that the sex you enjoy is consensual.
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EPT
