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United States42609 Posts
On August 03 2013 06:29 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:22 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:19 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:17 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:12 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:08 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 ComaDose wrote:On August 03 2013 06:04 Shiori wrote:
There hasn't been a single good reason as to why one shouldn't just say that they're trans. The last time they did they got beat up. And we're back to the "my life is hard so I should be able to disregard informed consent" argument. It doesn't work that way. Two wrongs don't make a right. This is a universal standard. You know what, he's right. Getting the living shit kicked out of you shouldn't deter you from going through the same experience again and again and again. It's as Freud predicted. "Because it's a binary choice. Get beat up or disregard consent. What do you want me to do, not get laid? Amirite?" I see you've never been beaten up over sex. *wink* there is a third option. Don't tell them and don't have sex. That option might suck, but KwarK is trying to say that sometimes you have to pass up sex if you want to do the right thing. IMO, a one-night-stand is a no-attachment experience which has absolutely no requirement for any sort of personal knowledge. If you consent before, consent during, and walk away with nothing except a fun memory, then all is fair. An actual relationship, though, should have at least mutual trust.
Theoretically, sure a one night stand could be with literally anyone. In practice, it's not. You can see them. You've spent some time with them. You've made a number of assumptions about the other party. If it was just a lottery where you were assigned one of a vast number of partners for the night then you I'd agree they were accepting a low possibility of a trans partner by playing. But that's not how it works. A trans woman might think she is presenting as a woman but she's being seen not as a woman but as a cis woman because 99.99% of the time that assumption will be right.
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United States42609 Posts
On August 03 2013 06:31 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:The problem with this is that you don't seem to understand how badly outing yourself in a community can be. It's not just about the immediate violence, you run the risk of never being a man or woman again that community, you're now the trans man or woman. This means you have to deal with all the same crap that you did when you transitioned that after passing and surgery and maybe moving somewhere new you had hoped to leave behing. No one transitions to be a transexual, it's just a medical thing you have to do because it's the least worst option on the way to transitioning to being your actual sex according to your gender.
The problems you can face for casually outing yourself can include unemployment, harrassment, being ostricised, assault (even if not right then from the person you tell), media attention (if your history is deemed weird), rape, and murder or suicide. I think the discussion would reach a better understanding if people understood what a big risk it is. I appreciate, and am honestly thankful, that for the most part those who don't realise immediately don't because they're tolerant and decent people who would find such consequences appauling, but you have to realise that these concerns are real or everyone is going to keep talking past each other. Do you have any actual statistics on any of this? I'll accept that ostracizing, harassment, and general disgust are things would could reasonably think might happen if a stranger discovers one is trans. That said, the rest of this is pretty much either a wild exaggeration or just not really realistic. The random person you run into at a bar/club is pretty unlikely to devote the rest of his/her life to tracking you down, getting you fired from your job (???) beating the shit out of you, raping you, going to the media (???) and/or murdering you. It's just not worth it. The only reasons I can think of anyone would even conceivably be pissed off enough to do any of these things is 1) if you told them after you had sex with them 2) if you dated them for several dates and still never told them 3) if you told them in a way that was clearly meant to be sardonic (I'm not sure if this ever happens, but I guess it's hypothetically possible) Like, who the fuck is going to spontaneously murder you just because they happened to find out that you're trans? Like, unless you were already having sex with them, or perhaps doing something physical, then why do they have any reason whatsoever to feel violated? While I'm sure there are some people crazy enough to attack someone simply because they happened to have a conversation, it's pretty obvious that these types of people are rare. It's completely unrealistic to assume that if one is in the business of finding one night stands, that telling someone one is trans before any intimacy is presumed is going to result in any serious violence. I accept that outing yourself is hard. Yes, it is. People are extremely disrespectful to minority groups, and trans people get some of the worst of it. But the fact is, nobody is asking you to go on national television and out yourself. They're telling you to out yourself to people you want to have sex with. I mean, I'd say that the same obligation would probably rest on gay men who, for whatever reason, have sex with straight women (and in some cases even marry them). Yes, there are good reasons to fear outing oneself, but they do not override the other person. You cannot assume that the other person is a murderer/rapist/violent individual because nowhere near most people are. You can assume that most people are either uncomfortable with fucking a trans person or that they are actually bigots. The former is preference, the latter is unjustifiable, but both of them are legitimate with regard to choosing sexual partners. It doesn't take just one person. When the information is out, it spreads. They tell a friend, they see you again and point you out maybe. News gets around. Show nested quote +Transgender facts
Although social acceptance for transgender people is growing, parents continue to abandon youth with gender-identity issues when their children need them most, advocates say.
49 per cent of transgender people attempt suicide.
Transgender youth account for 18 per cent of homeless people in cities such as Chicago, but researchers estimate fewer than 1 in 1,000 people is transgender.
1 in 12 transgender people in America is murdered.
Transgender youth whose parents pressure them to conform to their anatomical gender report higher levels of depression, illegal drug use, suicide attempts and unsafe sex than peers who receive little or no pressure from parents.
Less than 1 to 1.5 per cent of individuals experience persistent regret after sex-reassignment surgery.
Sources: Guidelines for Transgender Care (2006), Gender Spectrum Education and Training, Families in TRANSition (2008) Yeah, I know this stuff happens. I could give you a list of things that have happened to just me personally without pissing off anyone and you would almost certainly call me a liar. I've been followed by mobs of men screaming abuse at me, I've been assaulted in a police station in front of cops - which I was at for reporting an attempting mugging which was also clearly transphobic. I've had family members attacked in the street for being related to me. And that's not even to begin. This stuff really happens.
I wouldn't dream of calling you a liar. I'm sorry you live in a society where this happens.
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On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all.
Actually, this is your position. By not giving men the opportunity for consent, you are effectively taking total reign over the implications of intimacy. Your definition ends up being the only thing that matters.
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On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important.
If i know a girl is really into astronauts and i tell her i m an astronaut to fuck her then i m a rapist?
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On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important.
Your disgust is ignorant and incredibly abhorrent. Consent, consent, consent, in a world of fake boobs and tanning booths you're stuck on a medical issue that is really none of your business and accusing us of keeping 'vital' information from you. It's a body modification just like fake boobs and a nose job yet it's somehow not rape if you fuck someone with fake boobs and a nose job without realizing it.
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On August 03 2013 06:37 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Actually, this is your position. By not giving men the opportunity for consent, you are effectively taking total reign over the implications of intimacy. Your definition ends up being the only thing that matters.
Oh noes, farvacola with the big words.
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On August 03 2013 06:35 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:29 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:22 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:19 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:17 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:12 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:08 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 ComaDose wrote:On August 03 2013 06:04 Shiori wrote:
There hasn't been a single good reason as to why one shouldn't just say that they're trans. The last time they did they got beat up. And we're back to the "my life is hard so I should be able to disregard informed consent" argument. It doesn't work that way. Two wrongs don't make a right. This is a universal standard. You know what, he's right. Getting the living shit kicked out of you shouldn't deter you from going through the same experience again and again and again. It's as Freud predicted. "Because it's a binary choice. Get beat up or disregard consent. What do you want me to do, not get laid? Amirite?" I see you've never been beaten up over sex. *wink* there is a third option. Don't tell them and don't have sex. That option might suck, but KwarK is trying to say that sometimes you have to pass up sex if you want to do the right thing. IMO, a one-night-stand is a no-attachment experience which has absolutely no requirement for any sort of personal knowledge. If you consent before, consent during, and walk away with nothing except a fun memory, then all is fair. An actual relationship, though, should have at least mutual trust. Theoretically, sure a one night stand could be with literally anyone. In practice, it's not. You can see them. You've spent some time with them. You've made a number of assumptions about the other party. If it was just a lottery where you were assigned one of a vast number of partners for the night then you I'd agree they were accepting a low possibility of a trans partner by playing. But that's not how it works. A trans woman might think she is presenting as a woman but she's being seen not as a woman but as a cis woman because 99.99% of the time that assumption will be right.
The same mentality applies to plenty of things that have absolutely nothing to do with being transexual. And if those ever come to light, the standard response is "I want nothing to do with you anymore" or "This is as far as our relationship goes".
Not "You raped me".
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United States42609 Posts
On August 03 2013 06:35 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:30 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:29 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:22 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:19 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:17 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:12 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:08 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 ComaDose wrote:On August 03 2013 06:04 Shiori wrote:
There hasn't been a single good reason as to why one shouldn't just say that they're trans. The last time they did they got beat up. And we're back to the "my life is hard so I should be able to disregard informed consent" argument. It doesn't work that way. Two wrongs don't make a right. This is a universal standard. You know what, he's right. Getting the living shit kicked out of you shouldn't deter you from going through the same experience again and again and again. It's as Freud predicted. "Because it's a binary choice. Get beat up or disregard consent. What do you want me to do, not get laid? Amirite?" I see you've never been beaten up over sex. *wink* there is a third option. Don't tell them and don't have sex. That option might suck, but KwarK is trying to say that sometimes you have to pass up sex if you want to do the right thing. IMO, a one-night-stand is a no-attachment experience which has absolutely no requirement for any sort of personal knowledge. If you consent before, consent during, and walk away with nothing except a fun memory, then all is fair. An actual relationship, though, should have at least mutual trust. You don't get to decide whether or not they feel strongly about the relationship, however brief. Perhaps it doesn;t mean much to you, but that doesn't mean it doesn't mean much to them. Well, if you want something specific out of a one-night-stand, it's on you to look for it. Different people want different things, and there is plenty of opportunity before any kind of intimacy for either party say "this isn't what I'm looking for".
I don't think expecting a man to ask his partner on a one night stand "were you born a man?" because of the 0.01% chance that she was is a reasonable expectation nor a practical solution. The trans person has the unfortunate position of knowing that they are the outlier.
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On August 03 2013 06:31 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:The problem with this is that you don't seem to understand how badly outing yourself in a community can be. It's not just about the immediate violence, you run the risk of never being a man or woman again that community, you're now the trans man or woman. This means you have to deal with all the same crap that you did when you transitioned that after passing and surgery and maybe moving somewhere new you had hoped to leave behing. No one transitions to be a transexual, it's just a medical thing you have to do because it's the least worst option on the way to transitioning to being your actual sex according to your gender.
The problems you can face for casually outing yourself can include unemployment, harrassment, being ostricised, assault (even if not right then from the person you tell), media attention (if your history is deemed weird), rape, and murder or suicide. I think the discussion would reach a better understanding if people understood what a big risk it is. I appreciate, and am honestly thankful, that for the most part those who don't realise immediately don't because they're tolerant and decent people who would find such consequences appauling, but you have to realise that these concerns are real or everyone is going to keep talking past each other. Do you have any actual statistics on any of this? I'll accept that ostracizing, harassment, and general disgust are things would could reasonably think might happen if a stranger discovers one is trans. That said, the rest of this is pretty much either a wild exaggeration or just not really realistic. The random person you run into at a bar/club is pretty unlikely to devote the rest of his/her life to tracking you down, getting you fired from your job (???) beating the shit out of you, raping you, going to the media (???) and/or murdering you. It's just not worth it. The only reasons I can think of anyone would even conceivably be pissed off enough to do any of these things is 1) if you told them after you had sex with them 2) if you dated them for several dates and still never told them 3) if you told them in a way that was clearly meant to be sardonic (I'm not sure if this ever happens, but I guess it's hypothetically possible) Like, who the fuck is going to spontaneously murder you just because they happened to find out that you're trans? Like, unless you were already having sex with them, or perhaps doing something physical, then why do they have any reason whatsoever to feel violated? While I'm sure there are some people crazy enough to attack someone simply because they happened to have a conversation, it's pretty obvious that these types of people are rare. It's completely unrealistic to assume that if one is in the business of finding one night stands, that telling someone one is trans before any intimacy is presumed is going to result in any serious violence. I accept that outing yourself is hard. Yes, it is. People are extremely disrespectful to minority groups, and trans people get some of the worst of it. But the fact is, nobody is asking you to go on national television and out yourself. They're telling you to out yourself to people you want to have sex with. I mean, I'd say that the same obligation would probably rest on gay men who, for whatever reason, have sex with straight women (and in some cases even marry them). Yes, there are good reasons to fear outing oneself, but they do not override the other person. You cannot assume that the other person is a murderer/rapist/violent individual because nowhere near most people are. You can assume that most people are either uncomfortable with fucking a trans person or that they are actually bigots. The former is preference, the latter is unjustifiable, but both of them are legitimate with regard to choosing sexual partners. It doesn't take just one person. When the information is out, it spreads. They tell a friend, they see you again and point you out maybe. News gets around. Show nested quote +Transgender facts
Although social acceptance for transgender people is growing, parents continue to abandon youth with gender-identity issues when their children need them most, advocates say.
49 per cent of transgender people attempt suicide.
Transgender youth account for 18 per cent of homeless people in cities such as Chicago, but researchers estimate fewer than 1 in 1,000 people is transgender.
1 in 12 transgender people in America is murdered.
Transgender youth whose parents pressure them to conform to their anatomical gender report higher levels of depression, illegal drug use, suicide attempts and unsafe sex than peers who receive little or no pressure from parents.
Less than 1 to 1.5 per cent of individuals experience persistent regret after sex-reassignment surgery.
Sources: Guidelines for Transgender Care (2006), Gender Spectrum Education and Training, Families in TRANSition (2008) Yeah, I know this stuff happens. I could give you a list of things that have happened to just me personally without pissing off anyone and you would almost certainly call me a liar. I've been followed by mobs of men screaming abuse at me, I've been assaulted in a police station in front of cops - which I was at for reporting an attempting mugging which was also clearly transphobic. I've had family members attacked in the street for being related to me. And that's not even to begin. This stuff really happens.
Of course its true. What if you didn't tell someone that you were transgender thought they might object, slept with them and then they found out later? Wouldn't that be just as bad, if not worse? What if they could find you or your place of work?
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On August 03 2013 06:38 Sokrates wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. If i know a girl is really into astronauts and i tell her i m an astronaut to fuck her than i m a rapist?
I think you're a bad person. Whether its rape is going to depend on which definition of rape you're using.
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United States42609 Posts
On August 03 2013 06:38 Sokrates wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. If i know a girl is really into astronauts and i tell her i m an astronaut to fuck her then i m a rapist?
By my moral standard, yes. But the law can't possibly prove that her consent was entirely due to the lie and that she would not have otherwise consented so it's impossible to build a legal structure around that principle.
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On August 03 2013 06:40 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:38 Sokrates wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. If i know a girl is really into astronauts and i tell her i m an astronaut to fuck her then i m a rapist? By my moral standard, yes. But the law can't possibly prove that her consent was entirely due to the lie and that she would not have otherwise consented so it's impossible to build a legal structure around that principle.
Your moral standard does not stand up to others and implies a terrible crime that does not match the act in question. You may wish to find a new word, as you are offending the shit out of people.
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On August 03 2013 06:37 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Actually, this is your position. By not giving men the opportunity for consent, you are effectively taking total reign over the implications of intimacy. Your definition ends up being the only thing that matters.
They have the opportunity of consent and I have my privacy. They pick me up at the bar, what they see is what they get, and we fuck and that's it.
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United States42609 Posts
On August 03 2013 06:38 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. Your disgust is ignorant and incredibly abhorrent. Consent, consent, consent, in a world of fake boobs and tanning booths you're stuck on a medical issue that is really none of your business and accusing us of keeping 'vital' information from you. It's a body modification just like fake boobs and a nose job yet it's somehow not rape if you fuck someone with fake boobs and a nose job without realizing it.
Firstly, just none of my business. I don't actually have a problem with trans women vs cis women, both women to me. Stop trying to brand me with slurs that don't apply. Secondly, becomes the business of a transphobe about the time you ask them for consent. None of their business before. Is their business after. See the distinction? Thirdly, if fake boobs were a dealbreaker for a large number of people I would absolutely expect disclosure. There is no double standard here so stop trying that avenue, it doesn't go anywhere.
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On August 03 2013 06:38 Sokrates wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. If i know a girl is really into astronauts and i tell her i m an astronaut to fuck her then i m a rapist?
barney stinson
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On August 03 2013 06:40 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:38 Sokrates wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. If i know a girl is really into astronauts and i tell her i m an astronaut to fuck her then i m a rapist? By my moral standard, yes. But the law can't possibly prove that her consent was entirely due to the lie and that she would not have otherwise consented so it's impossible to build a legal structure around that principle.
by moral standards yes? seriously, this is a laughable belittlement of rape.
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On August 03 2013 06:38 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. Your disgust is ignorant and incredibly abhorrent. Consent, consent, consent, in a world of fake boobs and tanning booths you're stuck on a medical issue that is really none of your business and accusing us of keeping 'vital' information from you. It's a body modification just like fake boobs and a nose job yet it's somehow not rape if you fuck someone with fake boobs and a nose job without realizing it.
You keep trying to pain this as a double standard against trans people when really its not. KwarK has an expanded idea of what constitutes rape, but its not just because he hates trans people or something. He thinks that if you withhold any information that
A: puts you in a very small minority and
B: would likely make your partner change their mind
then the consent that they give you isn't valid (much like consent given while drunk etc.)
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United States42609 Posts
On August 03 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:40 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 Sokrates wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. If i know a girl is really into astronauts and i tell her i m an astronaut to fuck her then i m a rapist? By my moral standard, yes. But the law can't possibly prove that her consent was entirely due to the lie and that she would not have otherwise consented so it's impossible to build a legal structure around that principle. Your moral standard does not stand up to others and implies a terrible crime that does not match the act in question. You may wish to find a new word, as you are offending the shit out of people.
You think obtaining consent through deception is any better than obtaining it through force? If she doesn't want to have sex with you and you know she doesn't want to have sex with you and you do a thing that gets her to have sex with you then you're a rapist.
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On August 03 2013 06:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:31 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:The problem with this is that you don't seem to understand how badly outing yourself in a community can be. It's not just about the immediate violence, you run the risk of never being a man or woman again that community, you're now the trans man or woman. This means you have to deal with all the same crap that you did when you transitioned that after passing and surgery and maybe moving somewhere new you had hoped to leave behing. No one transitions to be a transexual, it's just a medical thing you have to do because it's the least worst option on the way to transitioning to being your actual sex according to your gender.
The problems you can face for casually outing yourself can include unemployment, harrassment, being ostricised, assault (even if not right then from the person you tell), media attention (if your history is deemed weird), rape, and murder or suicide. I think the discussion would reach a better understanding if people understood what a big risk it is. I appreciate, and am honestly thankful, that for the most part those who don't realise immediately don't because they're tolerant and decent people who would find such consequences appauling, but you have to realise that these concerns are real or everyone is going to keep talking past each other. Do you have any actual statistics on any of this? I'll accept that ostracizing, harassment, and general disgust are things would could reasonably think might happen if a stranger discovers one is trans. That said, the rest of this is pretty much either a wild exaggeration or just not really realistic. The random person you run into at a bar/club is pretty unlikely to devote the rest of his/her life to tracking you down, getting you fired from your job (???) beating the shit out of you, raping you, going to the media (???) and/or murdering you. It's just not worth it. The only reasons I can think of anyone would even conceivably be pissed off enough to do any of these things is 1) if you told them after you had sex with them 2) if you dated them for several dates and still never told them 3) if you told them in a way that was clearly meant to be sardonic (I'm not sure if this ever happens, but I guess it's hypothetically possible) Like, who the fuck is going to spontaneously murder you just because they happened to find out that you're trans? Like, unless you were already having sex with them, or perhaps doing something physical, then why do they have any reason whatsoever to feel violated? While I'm sure there are some people crazy enough to attack someone simply because they happened to have a conversation, it's pretty obvious that these types of people are rare. It's completely unrealistic to assume that if one is in the business of finding one night stands, that telling someone one is trans before any intimacy is presumed is going to result in any serious violence. I accept that outing yourself is hard. Yes, it is. People are extremely disrespectful to minority groups, and trans people get some of the worst of it. But the fact is, nobody is asking you to go on national television and out yourself. They're telling you to out yourself to people you want to have sex with. I mean, I'd say that the same obligation would probably rest on gay men who, for whatever reason, have sex with straight women (and in some cases even marry them). Yes, there are good reasons to fear outing oneself, but they do not override the other person. You cannot assume that the other person is a murderer/rapist/violent individual because nowhere near most people are. You can assume that most people are either uncomfortable with fucking a trans person or that they are actually bigots. The former is preference, the latter is unjustifiable, but both of them are legitimate with regard to choosing sexual partners. It doesn't take just one person. When the information is out, it spreads. They tell a friend, they see you again and point you out maybe. News gets around. Transgender facts
Although social acceptance for transgender people is growing, parents continue to abandon youth with gender-identity issues when their children need them most, advocates say.
49 per cent of transgender people attempt suicide.
Transgender youth account for 18 per cent of homeless people in cities such as Chicago, but researchers estimate fewer than 1 in 1,000 people is transgender.
1 in 12 transgender people in America is murdered.
Transgender youth whose parents pressure them to conform to their anatomical gender report higher levels of depression, illegal drug use, suicide attempts and unsafe sex than peers who receive little or no pressure from parents.
Less than 1 to 1.5 per cent of individuals experience persistent regret after sex-reassignment surgery.
Sources: Guidelines for Transgender Care (2006), Gender Spectrum Education and Training, Families in TRANSition (2008) Yeah, I know this stuff happens. I could give you a list of things that have happened to just me personally without pissing off anyone and you would almost certainly call me a liar. I've been followed by mobs of men screaming abuse at me, I've been assaulted in a police station in front of cops - which I was at for reporting an attempting mugging which was also clearly transphobic. I've had family members attacked in the street for being related to me. And that's not even to begin. This stuff really happens. Of course its true. What if you didn't tell someone that you were transgender thought they might object, slept with them and then they found out later? Wouldn't that be just as bad, if not worse? What if they could find you or your place of work?
A lot of people could never find out, a lot of trans people are invisble. I do always tell people because I always try to hold myself to the highest moral standard without regard for myself but it's really hard. So when I see people calling others rapists when I know what those people are going through it makes me really upset. Just writing that last post has me crying and I've been quite lucky, but so many people here act like it's no big deal for those who're still going through it or who could be forced to relive it. They don't get it and they're attacking others and I don't know how to respond properly.
People just kinda suck.
Edit: Not you people, people in general. Sorry.
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On August 03 2013 06:38 Sokrates wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. If i know a girl is really into astronauts and i tell her i m an astronaut to fuck her then i m a rapist?
Come on. We've all figured there's an abusive use of the word rapist. It is not used here as it is in a common way. Let's get over it, and understand what It means here: It's immoral not to tell someone something he assume is, isn't.
If someone think I'm a cis girl, It's immoral if I'm a trans.
If someone think I'm gay, it's immoral if I'm not.
If someone think I'm single, it's immoral if I'm not.
And I know your question is "how the fuck can I know what he think ?"
Well, there are some stereotype in this society. If I'm dressed like a cop, people will think I'm a cop.
If I ask a girl out, she'll assume I'm single.
If I have sex with a woman, I'll assume she's a cis.
Not 'cause there's a problem being a trans. Just 'cause of those stereotype.
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EPT
