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On August 03 2013 06:50 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:48 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure.
[quote]
In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. Your disgust is ignorant and incredibly abhorrent. Consent, consent, consent, in a world of fake boobs and tanning booths you're stuck on a medical issue that is really none of your business and accusing us of keeping 'vital' information from you. It's a body modification just like fake boobs and a nose job yet it's somehow not rape if you fuck someone with fake boobs and a nose job without realizing it. Firstly, just none of my business. I don't actually have a problem with trans women vs cis women, both women to me. Stop trying to brand me with slurs that don't apply. Secondly, becomes the business of a transphobe about the time you ask them for consent. None of their business before. Is their business after. See the distinction? Thirdly, if fake boobs were a dealbreaker for a large number of people I would absolutely expect disclosure. There is no double standard here so stop trying that avenue, it doesn't go anywhere. Well you're not getting disclosure and I'm definitely not a rapist for refusing to tell you. I've been beaten enough times to have made up my mind. Something doesn't become moral simply because the outcome is inconvenient. If someone asked would you tell them? Would you lie?
Being beaten is a bit more than inconvenient don't you think? If they asked I'd probably try to brush it off and find out if they're transphobic enough to put me in danger. I'm not going to have sex with someone that has a chance of hurting me but I also won't give out that information on the fly.
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On August 03 2013 06:53 MidKnight wrote:
And in general, if you think a certain characteristic about you would make your potential sex partner go as far as consider you "disgusting" and you are VERY WELL aware that it's most likely to be the case because you fall into a certain outlier (like being a trans), why would you want to have sex with them?
sex is fun (or so I hear).
In all seriousness though, a lot of people aren't looking for some kind of deeper commitment with this relationship, they just want to bump uglies for a bit.
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United States41961 Posts
On August 03 2013 06:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:49 ComaDose wrote:On August 03 2013 06:47 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:45 ComaDose wrote:On August 03 2013 06:43 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 06:40 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 Sokrates wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:
[quote]
According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. If i know a girl is really into astronauts and i tell her i m an astronaut to fuck her then i m a rapist? By my moral standard, yes. But the law can't possibly prove that her consent was entirely due to the lie and that she would not have otherwise consented so it's impossible to build a legal structure around that principle. Your moral standard does not stand up to others and implies a terrible crime that does not match the act in question. You may wish to find a new word, as you are offending the shit out of people. You think obtaining consent through deception is any better than obtaining it through force? If she doesn't want to have sex with you and you know she doesn't want to have sex with you and you do a thing that gets her to have sex with you then you're a rapist. but these people dont KNOW also just so ya'll know if we are ever about to get freaky irl you dont have to tell me what was between your legs when you were born  My place at 10? oh please.... we are going out to diner first obv! I think you two are having more fun in this thread than the rest of us. Maybe we should just ignore Kwark and his misuse of the word rape.
The rape rhetoric rose in direct parallel with the attacks on consent from the other side. Right now fugs is in the process of arguing that he gets to make decisions for people if he wants to fuck and the their informed non consent would result in blueballs.
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On August 03 2013 06:54 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:50 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:48 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:
[quote]
coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this.
You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first".
Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. Your disgust is ignorant and incredibly abhorrent. Consent, consent, consent, in a world of fake boobs and tanning booths you're stuck on a medical issue that is really none of your business and accusing us of keeping 'vital' information from you. It's a body modification just like fake boobs and a nose job yet it's somehow not rape if you fuck someone with fake boobs and a nose job without realizing it. Firstly, just none of my business. I don't actually have a problem with trans women vs cis women, both women to me. Stop trying to brand me with slurs that don't apply. Secondly, becomes the business of a transphobe about the time you ask them for consent. None of their business before. Is their business after. See the distinction? Thirdly, if fake boobs were a dealbreaker for a large number of people I would absolutely expect disclosure. There is no double standard here so stop trying that avenue, it doesn't go anywhere. Well you're not getting disclosure and I'm definitely not a rapist for refusing to tell you. I've been beaten enough times to have made up my mind. Something doesn't become moral simply because the outcome is inconvenient. If someone asked would you tell them? Would you lie? Being beaten is a bit more than inconvenient don't you think? If they asked I'd probably try to brush it off and find out if they're transphobic enough to put me in danger. I'm not going to have sex with someone that has a chance of hurting me but I also won't give out that information on the fly.
sorry, inconvenient was a bad word, but even the case where the alternative is downright dangerous, that fact doesn't make your decision moral. I don't necessarily think it is immoral to do what you do, all I'm trying to say is that your argument isn't great.
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On August 03 2013 06:54 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:50 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:48 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:
[quote]
coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this.
You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first".
Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. Your disgust is ignorant and incredibly abhorrent. Consent, consent, consent, in a world of fake boobs and tanning booths you're stuck on a medical issue that is really none of your business and accusing us of keeping 'vital' information from you. It's a body modification just like fake boobs and a nose job yet it's somehow not rape if you fuck someone with fake boobs and a nose job without realizing it. Firstly, just none of my business. I don't actually have a problem with trans women vs cis women, both women to me. Stop trying to brand me with slurs that don't apply. Secondly, becomes the business of a transphobe about the time you ask them for consent. None of their business before. Is their business after. See the distinction? Thirdly, if fake boobs were a dealbreaker for a large number of people I would absolutely expect disclosure. There is no double standard here so stop trying that avenue, it doesn't go anywhere. Well you're not getting disclosure and I'm definitely not a rapist for refusing to tell you. I've been beaten enough times to have made up my mind. Something doesn't become moral simply because the outcome is inconvenient. If someone asked would you tell them? Would you lie? Being beaten is a bit more than inconvenient don't you think? If they asked I'd probably try to brush it off and find out if they're transphobic enough to put me in danger. I'm not going to have sex with someone that has a chance of hurting me but I also won't give out that information on the fly.
Considering that hookups are a completely optional part of life (for both parties) it doesn't really matter what the potential consequences are of deceiving someone. Lying doesn't suddenly become good because there's a chance that telling the truth = a beating unless you have no option except to lie or tell the truth. There is another option: don't have hookups with random people.
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United States41961 Posts
On August 03 2013 06:54 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:50 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:48 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:
[quote]
coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this.
You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first".
Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. Your disgust is ignorant and incredibly abhorrent. Consent, consent, consent, in a world of fake boobs and tanning booths you're stuck on a medical issue that is really none of your business and accusing us of keeping 'vital' information from you. It's a body modification just like fake boobs and a nose job yet it's somehow not rape if you fuck someone with fake boobs and a nose job without realizing it. Firstly, just none of my business. I don't actually have a problem with trans women vs cis women, both women to me. Stop trying to brand me with slurs that don't apply. Secondly, becomes the business of a transphobe about the time you ask them for consent. None of their business before. Is their business after. See the distinction? Thirdly, if fake boobs were a dealbreaker for a large number of people I would absolutely expect disclosure. There is no double standard here so stop trying that avenue, it doesn't go anywhere. Well you're not getting disclosure and I'm definitely not a rapist for refusing to tell you. I've been beaten enough times to have made up my mind. Something doesn't become moral simply because the outcome is inconvenient. If someone asked would you tell them? Would you lie? Being beaten is a bit more than inconvenient don't you think? If they asked I'd probably try to brush it off and find out if they're transphobic enough to put me in danger. I'm not going to have sex with someone that has a chance of hurting me but I also won't give out that information on the fly.
So inconvenient that it takes priority over whatever dealbreakers they might have on who they have sex with? Because it inconveniences your getting laid...
The rights of everyone else are not obstacles to be ignored when you wanna fuck.
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On August 03 2013 06:55 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:50 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 06:49 ComaDose wrote:On August 03 2013 06:47 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:45 ComaDose wrote:On August 03 2013 06:43 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 06:40 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 Sokrates wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. If i know a girl is really into astronauts and i tell her i m an astronaut to fuck her then i m a rapist? By my moral standard, yes. But the law can't possibly prove that her consent was entirely due to the lie and that she would not have otherwise consented so it's impossible to build a legal structure around that principle. Your moral standard does not stand up to others and implies a terrible crime that does not match the act in question. You may wish to find a new word, as you are offending the shit out of people. You think obtaining consent through deception is any better than obtaining it through force? If she doesn't want to have sex with you and you know she doesn't want to have sex with you and you do a thing that gets her to have sex with you then you're a rapist. but these people dont KNOW also just so ya'll know if we are ever about to get freaky irl you dont have to tell me what was between your legs when you were born My place at 10? oh please.... we are going out to diner first obv! I think you two are having more fun in this thread than the rest of us. Maybe we should just ignore Kwark and his misuse of the word rape. The rape rhetoric rose in direct parallel with the attacks on consent from the other side.
Maybe, but the rape rhetoric is still incredible stupid. Please stop with it
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On August 03 2013 06:52 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:48 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure.
[quote]
In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. Your disgust is ignorant and incredibly abhorrent. Consent, consent, consent, in a world of fake boobs and tanning booths you're stuck on a medical issue that is really none of your business and accusing us of keeping 'vital' information from you. It's a body modification just like fake boobs and a nose job yet it's somehow not rape if you fuck someone with fake boobs and a nose job without realizing it. Firstly, just none of my business. I don't actually have a problem with trans women vs cis women, both women to me. Stop trying to brand me with slurs that don't apply. Secondly, becomes the business of a transphobe about the time you ask them for consent. None of their business before. Is their business after. See the distinction? Thirdly, if fake boobs were a dealbreaker for a large number of people I would absolutely expect disclosure. There is no double standard here so stop trying that avenue, it doesn't go anywhere. Well you're not getting disclosure and I'm definitely not a rapist for refusing to tell you. I've been beaten enough times to have made up my mind. Whether or not you have to ask for consent doesn't actually change depending on the number of times you've been beaten up. It's this shit that pissed me off so much in the first place. I started off being like "whatever, it's courteous to say" but after page after page of "I don't care if they wouldn't want to have sex with me because..." I just wanna scream "DON'T YOU GUYS GET IT?!?". It's either right to disclose or it's not. No amount of beatings have any bearing on that. If you thought it was right to disclose but then got beaten a bunch the correct option is "it's still right to disclose but I guess I can't have random hookups anymore". It is not "whatever, I'm tired of being beaten up, fuck everyone and their rights".
And I've been over it, over and over. It's not about going "well fuck all those people" because I have to think about my rights too. You insist that there isn't a double standard but I'm the one that has to disclose it and I'm the one that has to deal with the consequences while all the guy has to do is ask if I want to have sex and somehow if I neglect to tell him that I'm trans I'm suddenly raping him?
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On August 03 2013 06:49 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:45 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:37 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure.
[quote]
In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Actually, this is your position. By not giving men the opportunity for consent, you are effectively taking total reign over the implications of intimacy. Your definition ends up being the only thing that matters. They have the opportunity of consent and I have my privacy. They pick me up at the bar, what they see is what they get, and we fuck and that's it. Because as far as you're concerned there is no cis vs trans distinction. But you don't get to decide their criteria, they do. And if they do make a distinction and have sex with you acting under the assumption that you are cis and you were aware that they made this distinction then you are deceiving them into sex. Consent relies upon equal information. Consent relies on nothing of the sort. And we're back to this one. A guy has a twin who is married. The twins don't know each other as they were adopted separately. His twin's wife doesn't know her husband has a twin. One night the unmarried twin shows up and has sex with his brother's wife. Is it her duty to ask her husband each time "is it you or your twin?" while knowing that he might possibly have a twin but probably doesn't or rather is it reasonable to assume the guy who looks like her husband is her husband. Likewise is it reasonable for the twin to assume that his brother's wife's consent is built on the assumption that he is her husband rather than her husband or his twin or whatever?
...your analogy is fucking horrible, and if this is what you're basing your entire logic on, then your logic is completely out of whack.
Rape by impersonation is defined in law, along with consent obtained through impersonation. It is rape, and impersonation does not grant consent.
Consent through "failure to disclose turnoffs" is not.
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On August 03 2013 06:48 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:42 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. Your disgust is ignorant and incredibly abhorrent. Consent, consent, consent, in a world of fake boobs and tanning booths you're stuck on a medical issue that is really none of your business and accusing us of keeping 'vital' information from you. It's a body modification just like fake boobs and a nose job yet it's somehow not rape if you fuck someone with fake boobs and a nose job without realizing it. Firstly, just none of my business. I don't actually have a problem with trans women vs cis women, both women to me. Stop trying to brand me with slurs that don't apply. Secondly, becomes the business of a transphobe about the time you ask them for consent. None of their business before. Is their business after. See the distinction? Thirdly, if fake boobs were a dealbreaker for a large number of people I would absolutely expect disclosure. There is no double standard here so stop trying that avenue, it doesn't go anywhere. Well you're not getting disclosure and I'm definitely not a rapist for refusing to tell you. I've been beaten enough times to have made up my mind.
You're right, you're just a huge asshole then. Just like you'd be a huge asshole if you didn't disclose if you were in a relationship, if you lied about things about yourself, etc. What the fuck are all these stupid strawmen about fake tits and common colds?
I can't even believe this discussion went as far as it did. I don't think I particularly agree with Kwark about it being rape, but I know his intentions as a poster and it's pretty amazing people are shitting all over him, people like you calling him a bigot because he's advocating disclosure since it's a thing that almost every single hetero person would like?
Nothing he is saying is out of line. You can not want to sleep with a trans person, but not be a bigot. and since that is something that is fairly rare, it's up to the trans person to disclose. If you're that concerned about getting beaten, go out with a friend, tell friend wher you are going ,etc etc. You make it like there are zero safe guards you can do to prevent something shitty happening. Or say something before you've taken away the person ability to chose if they want to hook up with a trans person.
And really, the only one being disgusting here is you for just screaming louder and louder when someone is bringing up a valid issue. Christ, I'm like kwark, all pro femminism, trans people etc, but holy shit, try breathing and using your fingers to type instead of your fists because his point is valid and he's bringing it up in a totally fair way. You're the one being a belligerent asshole because someone disagrees with you.
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United States41961 Posts
On August 03 2013 06:57 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:52 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:48 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:
[quote]
coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this.
You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first".
Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. Your disgust is ignorant and incredibly abhorrent. Consent, consent, consent, in a world of fake boobs and tanning booths you're stuck on a medical issue that is really none of your business and accusing us of keeping 'vital' information from you. It's a body modification just like fake boobs and a nose job yet it's somehow not rape if you fuck someone with fake boobs and a nose job without realizing it. Firstly, just none of my business. I don't actually have a problem with trans women vs cis women, both women to me. Stop trying to brand me with slurs that don't apply. Secondly, becomes the business of a transphobe about the time you ask them for consent. None of their business before. Is their business after. See the distinction? Thirdly, if fake boobs were a dealbreaker for a large number of people I would absolutely expect disclosure. There is no double standard here so stop trying that avenue, it doesn't go anywhere. Well you're not getting disclosure and I'm definitely not a rapist for refusing to tell you. I've been beaten enough times to have made up my mind. Whether or not you have to ask for consent doesn't actually change depending on the number of times you've been beaten up. It's this shit that pissed me off so much in the first place. I started off being like "whatever, it's courteous to say" but after page after page of "I don't care if they wouldn't want to have sex with me because..." I just wanna scream "DON'T YOU GUYS GET IT?!?". It's either right to disclose or it's not. No amount of beatings have any bearing on that. If you thought it was right to disclose but then got beaten a bunch the correct option is "it's still right to disclose but I guess I can't have random hookups anymore". It is not "whatever, I'm tired of being beaten up, fuck everyone and their rights". And I've been over it, over and over. It's not about going "well fuck all those people" because I have to think about my rights too. You insist that there isn't a double standard but I'm the one that has to disclose it and I'm the one that has to deal with the consequences while all the guy has to do is ask if I want to have sex and somehow if I neglect to tell him that I'm trans I'm suddenly raping him?
You don't have a right to sex with people who don't want sex with trans people. If you are basing your argument on that then it explains a lot about your posting.
There is no double standard, simply a rule of reasonable assumptions.
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On August 03 2013 06:56 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:54 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:50 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:48 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. Your disgust is ignorant and incredibly abhorrent. Consent, consent, consent, in a world of fake boobs and tanning booths you're stuck on a medical issue that is really none of your business and accusing us of keeping 'vital' information from you. It's a body modification just like fake boobs and a nose job yet it's somehow not rape if you fuck someone with fake boobs and a nose job without realizing it. Firstly, just none of my business. I don't actually have a problem with trans women vs cis women, both women to me. Stop trying to brand me with slurs that don't apply. Secondly, becomes the business of a transphobe about the time you ask them for consent. None of their business before. Is their business after. See the distinction? Thirdly, if fake boobs were a dealbreaker for a large number of people I would absolutely expect disclosure. There is no double standard here so stop trying that avenue, it doesn't go anywhere. Well you're not getting disclosure and I'm definitely not a rapist for refusing to tell you. I've been beaten enough times to have made up my mind. Something doesn't become moral simply because the outcome is inconvenient. If someone asked would you tell them? Would you lie? Being beaten is a bit more than inconvenient don't you think? If they asked I'd probably try to brush it off and find out if they're transphobic enough to put me in danger. I'm not going to have sex with someone that has a chance of hurting me but I also won't give out that information on the fly. So inconvenient that it takes priority over whatever dealbreakers they might have on who they have sex with? Because it inconveniences your getting laid... The rights of everyone else are not obstacles to be ignored when you wanna fuck.
And then it suddenly becomes my job to be the all magical seer of people's kinks and kink-outs. If you want to talk about total disclosure do it on a dating site but it shouldn't be expected during a hookup.
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On August 03 2013 06:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:49 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:45 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:37 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:
[quote]
coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this.
You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first".
Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Actually, this is your position. By not giving men the opportunity for consent, you are effectively taking total reign over the implications of intimacy. Your definition ends up being the only thing that matters. They have the opportunity of consent and I have my privacy. They pick me up at the bar, what they see is what they get, and we fuck and that's it. Because as far as you're concerned there is no cis vs trans distinction. But you don't get to decide their criteria, they do. And if they do make a distinction and have sex with you acting under the assumption that you are cis and you were aware that they made this distinction then you are deceiving them into sex. Consent relies upon equal information. Consent relies on nothing of the sort. And we're back to this one. A guy has a twin who is married. The twins don't know each other as they were adopted separately. His twin's wife doesn't know her husband has a twin. One night the unmarried twin shows up and has sex with his brother's wife. Is it her duty to ask her husband each time "is it you or your twin?" while knowing that he might possibly have a twin but probably doesn't or rather is it reasonable to assume the guy who looks like her husband is her husband. Likewise is it reasonable for the twin to assume that his brother's wife's consent is built on the assumption that he is her husband rather than her husband or his twin or whatever? ...your analogy is fucking horrible, and if this is what you're basing your entire logic on, then your logic is completely out of whack. Rape by impersonation is defined in law, along with consent obtained through impersonation. It is rape, and impersonation does not grant consent. Consent through "failure to disclose turnoffs" is not.
I'm going to sound like an asshole, but a person who doesn't want to sleep with trans people would argue that you are "personifying"a cis-woman.
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United States41961 Posts
On August 03 2013 06:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:49 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:45 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:37 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:
[quote]
coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this.
You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first".
Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Actually, this is your position. By not giving men the opportunity for consent, you are effectively taking total reign over the implications of intimacy. Your definition ends up being the only thing that matters. They have the opportunity of consent and I have my privacy. They pick me up at the bar, what they see is what they get, and we fuck and that's it. Because as far as you're concerned there is no cis vs trans distinction. But you don't get to decide their criteria, they do. And if they do make a distinction and have sex with you acting under the assumption that you are cis and you were aware that they made this distinction then you are deceiving them into sex. Consent relies upon equal information. Consent relies on nothing of the sort. And we're back to this one. A guy has a twin who is married. The twins don't know each other as they were adopted separately. His twin's wife doesn't know her husband has a twin. One night the unmarried twin shows up and has sex with his brother's wife. Is it her duty to ask her husband each time "is it you or your twin?" while knowing that he might possibly have a twin but probably doesn't or rather is it reasonable to assume the guy who looks like her husband is her husband. Likewise is it reasonable for the twin to assume that his brother's wife's consent is built on the assumption that he is her husband rather than her husband or his twin or whatever? ...your analogy is fucking horrible, and if this is what you're basing your entire logic on, then your logic is completely out of whack. Rape by impersonation is defined in law, along with consent obtained through impersonation. It is rape, and impersonation does not grant consent. Consent through "failure to disclose turnoffs" is not.
Transphobic people believe that trans people are impersonating cis people. Doesn't matter if they're right or not, if that's their condition for consent and you are reasonably sure that that is their condition for consent and reasonably sure they think you're cis, you tell them.
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On August 03 2013 06:59 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:57 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:52 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:48 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. Your disgust is ignorant and incredibly abhorrent. Consent, consent, consent, in a world of fake boobs and tanning booths you're stuck on a medical issue that is really none of your business and accusing us of keeping 'vital' information from you. It's a body modification just like fake boobs and a nose job yet it's somehow not rape if you fuck someone with fake boobs and a nose job without realizing it. Firstly, just none of my business. I don't actually have a problem with trans women vs cis women, both women to me. Stop trying to brand me with slurs that don't apply. Secondly, becomes the business of a transphobe about the time you ask them for consent. None of their business before. Is their business after. See the distinction? Thirdly, if fake boobs were a dealbreaker for a large number of people I would absolutely expect disclosure. There is no double standard here so stop trying that avenue, it doesn't go anywhere. Well you're not getting disclosure and I'm definitely not a rapist for refusing to tell you. I've been beaten enough times to have made up my mind. Whether or not you have to ask for consent doesn't actually change depending on the number of times you've been beaten up. It's this shit that pissed me off so much in the first place. I started off being like "whatever, it's courteous to say" but after page after page of "I don't care if they wouldn't want to have sex with me because..." I just wanna scream "DON'T YOU GUYS GET IT?!?". It's either right to disclose or it's not. No amount of beatings have any bearing on that. If you thought it was right to disclose but then got beaten a bunch the correct option is "it's still right to disclose but I guess I can't have random hookups anymore". It is not "whatever, I'm tired of being beaten up, fuck everyone and their rights". And I've been over it, over and over. It's not about going "well fuck all those people" because I have to think about my rights too. You insist that there isn't a double standard but I'm the one that has to disclose it and I'm the one that has to deal with the consequences while all the guy has to do is ask if I want to have sex and somehow if I neglect to tell him that I'm trans I'm suddenly raping him? You don't have a right to sex with people who don't want sex with trans people. If you are basing your argument on that then it explains a lot about your posting. There is no double standard, simply a rule of reasonable assumptions.
Where the hell did I say that? I've repeatedly stated that it's your bag if you don't want to have sex with trans people not mine but I shouldn't have to be responsible for it for merely existing.
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United States41961 Posts
On August 03 2013 07:00 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:56 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:54 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:50 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:48 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid?
According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. Your disgust is ignorant and incredibly abhorrent. Consent, consent, consent, in a world of fake boobs and tanning booths you're stuck on a medical issue that is really none of your business and accusing us of keeping 'vital' information from you. It's a body modification just like fake boobs and a nose job yet it's somehow not rape if you fuck someone with fake boobs and a nose job without realizing it. Firstly, just none of my business. I don't actually have a problem with trans women vs cis women, both women to me. Stop trying to brand me with slurs that don't apply. Secondly, becomes the business of a transphobe about the time you ask them for consent. None of their business before. Is their business after. See the distinction? Thirdly, if fake boobs were a dealbreaker for a large number of people I would absolutely expect disclosure. There is no double standard here so stop trying that avenue, it doesn't go anywhere. Well you're not getting disclosure and I'm definitely not a rapist for refusing to tell you. I've been beaten enough times to have made up my mind. Something doesn't become moral simply because the outcome is inconvenient. If someone asked would you tell them? Would you lie? Being beaten is a bit more than inconvenient don't you think? If they asked I'd probably try to brush it off and find out if they're transphobic enough to put me in danger. I'm not going to have sex with someone that has a chance of hurting me but I also won't give out that information on the fly. So inconvenient that it takes priority over whatever dealbreakers they might have on who they have sex with? Because it inconveniences your getting laid... The rights of everyone else are not obstacles to be ignored when you wanna fuck. And then it suddenly becomes my job to be the all magical seer of people's kinks and kink-outs. If you want to talk about total disclosure do it on a dating site but it shouldn't be expected during a hookup.
No, if you legitimately thought it wasn't an issue because they had some random unexpected hangup which you couldn't have seen coming or if you were a member of a sizable minority which they could have anticipated then no, it is not your job. I don't ask the impossible from you. I don't ask magic, wizardry, seeing the future or anything of the sort. I ask that you recognise that you are such a significant minority you cannot be reasonably anticipated and that a phobia of your minority is sufficiently common that it can be anticipated. Get it?
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re: misusing rape, phobia, racist etc.
Ill just quote myself:
Youre just washing out whatever meaning those words actually have for rethoric purpose, because guess what its uncomfortable to be called a racist or a bigot or a transphobe or a rapist. Its a cheapshot, its ridiculous, its used to push certain dogma and worst of all, it obscures communication.
I absolutely refuse to play that game.
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On August 03 2013 07:03 Snusmumriken wrote:re: misusing rape, phobia, racist etc. Ill just quote myself: Show nested quote +Youre just washing out whatever meaning those words actually have for rethoric purpose, because guess what its uncomfortable to be called a racist or a bigot or a transphobe or a rapist. Its a cheapshot, its ridiculous, its used to push certain dogma and worst of all, it obscures communication.
I absolutely refuse to play that game.
The difference is that KwarK actually wants to expand the notion of "rape" in a moral sense. He's not exaggerating, he literally thinks that you are a rapist.
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On August 03 2013 07:01 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:49 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:45 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:37 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Actually, this is your position. By not giving men the opportunity for consent, you are effectively taking total reign over the implications of intimacy. Your definition ends up being the only thing that matters. They have the opportunity of consent and I have my privacy. They pick me up at the bar, what they see is what they get, and we fuck and that's it. Because as far as you're concerned there is no cis vs trans distinction. But you don't get to decide their criteria, they do. And if they do make a distinction and have sex with you acting under the assumption that you are cis and you were aware that they made this distinction then you are deceiving them into sex. Consent relies upon equal information. Consent relies on nothing of the sort. And we're back to this one. A guy has a twin who is married. The twins don't know each other as they were adopted separately. His twin's wife doesn't know her husband has a twin. One night the unmarried twin shows up and has sex with his brother's wife. Is it her duty to ask her husband each time "is it you or your twin?" while knowing that he might possibly have a twin but probably doesn't or rather is it reasonable to assume the guy who looks like her husband is her husband. Likewise is it reasonable for the twin to assume that his brother's wife's consent is built on the assumption that he is her husband rather than her husband or his twin or whatever? ...your analogy is fucking horrible, and if this is what you're basing your entire logic on, then your logic is completely out of whack. Rape by impersonation is defined in law, along with consent obtained through impersonation. It is rape, and impersonation does not grant consent. Consent through "failure to disclose turnoffs" is not. Transphobic people believe that trans people are impersonating cis people. Doesn't matter if they're right or not, if that's their condition for consent and you are reasonably sure that that is their condition for consent and reasonably sure they think you're cis, you tell them.
But they are still a singular person. Twins are not. Not even close. No matter what information you fail to disclose to a possible sex partner, you are still asking them to have sex with you.
Your twin analogy sucks. Please stop.
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On August 03 2013 07:05 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 07:01 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:49 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:45 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:37 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid?
According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Actually, this is your position. By not giving men the opportunity for consent, you are effectively taking total reign over the implications of intimacy. Your definition ends up being the only thing that matters. They have the opportunity of consent and I have my privacy. They pick me up at the bar, what they see is what they get, and we fuck and that's it. Because as far as you're concerned there is no cis vs trans distinction. But you don't get to decide their criteria, they do. And if they do make a distinction and have sex with you acting under the assumption that you are cis and you were aware that they made this distinction then you are deceiving them into sex. Consent relies upon equal information. Consent relies on nothing of the sort. And we're back to this one. A guy has a twin who is married. The twins don't know each other as they were adopted separately. His twin's wife doesn't know her husband has a twin. One night the unmarried twin shows up and has sex with his brother's wife. Is it her duty to ask her husband each time "is it you or your twin?" while knowing that he might possibly have a twin but probably doesn't or rather is it reasonable to assume the guy who looks like her husband is her husband. Likewise is it reasonable for the twin to assume that his brother's wife's consent is built on the assumption that he is her husband rather than her husband or his twin or whatever? ...your analogy is fucking horrible, and if this is what you're basing your entire logic on, then your logic is completely out of whack. Rape by impersonation is defined in law, along with consent obtained through impersonation. It is rape, and impersonation does not grant consent. Consent through "failure to disclose turnoffs" is not. Transphobic people believe that trans people are impersonating cis people. Doesn't matter if they're right or not, if that's their condition for consent and you are reasonably sure that that is their condition for consent and reasonably sure they think you're cis, you tell them. But they are still a singular person. Twins are not. Not even close. No matter what information you fail to disclose to a possible sex partner, you are still asking them to have sex with you. Your twin analogy sucks. Please stop.
If I'm twin #2 I'm asking them to have sex with me not my brother. I'm simply not revealing which one I am.
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EPT
