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On August 03 2013 06:43 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 06:40 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 Sokrates wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure.
[quote]
In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. If i know a girl is really into astronauts and i tell her i m an astronaut to fuck her then i m a rapist? By my moral standard, yes. But the law can't possibly prove that her consent was entirely due to the lie and that she would not have otherwise consented so it's impossible to build a legal structure around that principle. Your moral standard does not stand up to others and implies a terrible crime that does not match the act in question. You may wish to find a new word, as you are offending the shit out of people. You think obtaining consent through deception is any better than obtaining it through force? If she doesn't want to have sex with you and you know she doesn't want to have sex with you and you do a thing that gets her to have sex with you then you're a rapist.
but these people dont KNOW
also just so ya'll know if we are ever about to get freaky irl you dont have to tell me what was between your legs when you were born 
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On August 03 2013 06:31 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:The problem with this is that you don't seem to understand how badly outing yourself in a community can be. It's not just about the immediate violence, you run the risk of never being a man or woman again that community, you're now the trans man or woman. This means you have to deal with all the same crap that you did when you transitioned that after passing and surgery and maybe moving somewhere new you had hoped to leave behing. No one transitions to be a transexual, it's just a medical thing you have to do because it's the least worst option on the way to transitioning to being your actual sex according to your gender.
The problems you can face for casually outing yourself can include unemployment, harrassment, being ostricised, assault (even if not right then from the person you tell), media attention (if your history is deemed weird), rape, and murder or suicide. I think the discussion would reach a better understanding if people understood what a big risk it is. I appreciate, and am honestly thankful, that for the most part those who don't realise immediately don't because they're tolerant and decent people who would find such consequences appauling, but you have to realise that these concerns are real or everyone is going to keep talking past each other. Do you have any actual statistics on any of this? I'll accept that ostracizing, harassment, and general disgust are things would could reasonably think might happen if a stranger discovers one is trans. That said, the rest of this is pretty much either a wild exaggeration or just not really realistic. The random person you run into at a bar/club is pretty unlikely to devote the rest of his/her life to tracking you down, getting you fired from your job (???) beating the shit out of you, raping you, going to the media (???) and/or murdering you. It's just not worth it. The only reasons I can think of anyone would even conceivably be pissed off enough to do any of these things is 1) if you told them after you had sex with them 2) if you dated them for several dates and still never told them 3) if you told them in a way that was clearly meant to be sardonic (I'm not sure if this ever happens, but I guess it's hypothetically possible) Like, who the fuck is going to spontaneously murder you just because they happened to find out that you're trans? Like, unless you were already having sex with them, or perhaps doing something physical, then why do they have any reason whatsoever to feel violated? While I'm sure there are some people crazy enough to attack someone simply because they happened to have a conversation, it's pretty obvious that these types of people are rare. It's completely unrealistic to assume that if one is in the business of finding one night stands, that telling someone one is trans before any intimacy is presumed is going to result in any serious violence. I accept that outing yourself is hard. Yes, it is. People are extremely disrespectful to minority groups, and trans people get some of the worst of it. But the fact is, nobody is asking you to go on national television and out yourself. They're telling you to out yourself to people you want to have sex with. I mean, I'd say that the same obligation would probably rest on gay men who, for whatever reason, have sex with straight women (and in some cases even marry them). Yes, there are good reasons to fear outing oneself, but they do not override the other person. You cannot assume that the other person is a murderer/rapist/violent individual because nowhere near most people are. You can assume that most people are either uncomfortable with fucking a trans person or that they are actually bigots. The former is preference, the latter is unjustifiable, but both of them are legitimate with regard to choosing sexual partners. It doesn't take just one person. When the information is out, it spreads. They tell a friend, they see you again and point you out maybe. News gets around. Show nested quote +Transgender facts
Although social acceptance for transgender people is growing, parents continue to abandon youth with gender-identity issues when their children need them most, advocates say.
49 per cent of transgender people attempt suicide.
Transgender youth account for 18 per cent of homeless people in cities such as Chicago, but researchers estimate fewer than 1 in 1,000 people is transgender.
1 in 12 transgender people in America is murdered.
Transgender youth whose parents pressure them to conform to their anatomical gender report higher levels of depression, illegal drug use, suicide attempts and unsafe sex than peers who receive little or no pressure from parents.
Less than 1 to 1.5 per cent of individuals experience persistent regret after sex-reassignment surgery.
Sources: Guidelines for Transgender Care (2006), Gender Spectrum Education and Training, Families in TRANSition (2008) Yeah, I know this stuff happens. I could give you a list of things that have happened to just me personally without pissing off anyone and you would almost certainly call me a liar. I've been followed by mobs of men screaming abuse at me, I've been assaulted in a police station in front of cops - which I was at for reporting an attempting mugging which was also clearly transphobic. I've had family members attacked in the street for being related to me. And that's not even to begin. This stuff really happens.
That really sucks ass. While I have nowhere near that level of pain in my history, I do sort of know what it's like to be jeered at/treated as an outcast (although not to that extent) on account of mental issues (lost a lot of friends due to depression and shit; weird how people treat you differently). And yes, I was very, very tempted to just fake being happy most of the time so that people wouldn't notice/get pissy about it. But honestly, I feel good about the fact that I took ownership of who I was when it mattered. Every person who I was going to interact with on anything even close to a deep level, I told, in more or less detail. And yeah, sometimes it lost me friends. Sometimes people who said they didn't care actually ended up caring a lot. At the end of the day, though, I think it's worth it, because those people are obviously not the kind of people I want to be with.
While this is nowhere near the level of abuse you've suffered (and I don't mean to imply that it is) my basic point is that, yes, life is fucking shitty as hell sometimes. It's not just "life sucks." No. Life is a fucking abuser that sometimes picks you up just to throw you off a higher cliff. But, as painful as it is, you are always obligated to do the right thing (at least in my books). I'm not going to call you some sort of evil sociopath if you truly don't do the right thing because you genuinely fear for your life (as some people surely do). But I do think that there are a lot of trans people (even in this thread) who aren't exactly scared of violence so much as they're scared of embarrassment. And while that's definitely a reasonable thing to be afraid of, it's not a big enough deal abstractly to override another person's right to informed consent, since the latter is one of the founding rights of society.
I believe that you should always do the moral thing when you are in a right state of mind to do so. If you are so paralyzed by fear that you literally can't bring yourself to out yourself, then that's one thing. But if you're not at that level of anxiety, then you should inform your potential partner of your trans status. If he/she responds negatively, then that sucks. But you know what? It's not your sin. It's the other person's. While that may seem small solace, I've found it very helpful in feeling secure about myself and my identity. It's a really good feeling to be able to say that you never stooped so low as the people you're scared of, and thereby never lost yourself.
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United States41961 Posts
On August 03 2013 06:42 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:37 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Actually, this is your position. By not giving men the opportunity for consent, you are effectively taking total reign over the implications of intimacy. Your definition ends up being the only thing that matters. They have the opportunity of consent and I have my privacy. They pick me up at the bar, what they see is what they get, and we fuck and that's it.
Because as far as you're concerned there is no cis vs trans distinction. But you don't get to decide their criteria, they do. And if they do make a distinction and have sex with you acting under the assumption that you are cis and you were aware that they made this distinction then you are deceiving them into sex. Consent relies upon equal information.
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On August 03 2013 06:43 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 06:40 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 Sokrates wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure.
[quote]
In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. If i know a girl is really into astronauts and i tell her i m an astronaut to fuck her then i m a rapist? By my moral standard, yes. But the law can't possibly prove that her consent was entirely due to the lie and that she would not have otherwise consented so it's impossible to build a legal structure around that principle. Your moral standard does not stand up to others and implies a terrible crime that does not match the act in question. You may wish to find a new word, as you are offending the shit out of people. You think obtaining consent through deception is any better than obtaining it through force? If she doesn't want to have sex with you and you know she doesn't want to have sex with you and you do a thing that gets her to have sex with you then you're a rapist.
I think it makes them an total asshole that I would rather spit on than talk to, but I won't call the person a rapist, no. No only is it incorrect and offensive, but it also diminishes the real crime of rape and likens it to being tricked or mislead. Anyone who has been raped would tell you the two are not similar.
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On August 03 2013 06:40 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:38 Sokrates wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. If i know a girl is really into astronauts and i tell her i m an astronaut to fuck her then i m a rapist? By my moral standard, yes. But the law can't possibly prove that her consent was entirely due to the lie and that she would not have otherwise consented so it's impossible to build a legal structure around that principle.
On August 03 2013 06:39 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:38 Sokrates wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. If i know a girl is really into astronauts and i tell her i m an astronaut to fuck her than i m a rapist? I think you're a bad person. Whether its rape is going to depend on which definition of rape you're using.
Sry but that is a really "wide" definition of rape then. And it really waters down the word A LOT.
A person doing this is not a rapist, that is an insult to all women that have really been raped. THe person doing this is a asshole or a liar. But not a rapist.
That is like comparing a slap in the face with being brutally beaten up.
My problem with the inflationary use of such "strong" words is that it only waters them down so they lose their actual meaning.
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On August 03 2013 06:43 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 06:40 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 Sokrates wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure.
[quote]
In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. If i know a girl is really into astronauts and i tell her i m an astronaut to fuck her then i m a rapist? By my moral standard, yes. But the law can't possibly prove that her consent was entirely due to the lie and that she would not have otherwise consented so it's impossible to build a legal structure around that principle. Your moral standard does not stand up to others and implies a terrible crime that does not match the act in question. You may wish to find a new word, as you are offending the shit out of people. You think obtaining consent through deception is any better than obtaining it through force? If she doesn't want to have sex with you and you know she doesn't want to have sex with you and you do a thing that gets her to have sex with you then you're a rapist.
People don't generally call it rape when you achieve consent through deception, and not everyone considers it deception to withhold information that wasn't asked. I'm trying to agree with you, but if you keep calling it rape then the discussion is never going to get anywhere.
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On August 03 2013 06:45 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:42 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:37 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Actually, this is your position. By not giving men the opportunity for consent, you are effectively taking total reign over the implications of intimacy. Your definition ends up being the only thing that matters. They have the opportunity of consent and I have my privacy. They pick me up at the bar, what they see is what they get, and we fuck and that's it. Because as far as you're concerned there is no cis vs trans distinction. But you don't get to decide their criteria, they do. And if they do make a distinction and have sex with you acting under the assumption that you are cis and you were aware that they made this distinction then you are deceiving them into sex. Consent relies upon equal information.
Consent relies on nothing of the sort.
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On August 03 2013 06:45 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:42 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:37 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Actually, this is your position. By not giving men the opportunity for consent, you are effectively taking total reign over the implications of intimacy. Your definition ends up being the only thing that matters. They have the opportunity of consent and I have my privacy. They pick me up at the bar, what they see is what they get, and we fuck and that's it. Because as far as you're concerned there is no cis vs trans distinction. But you don't get to decide their criteria, they do. And if they do make a distinction and have sex with you acting under the assumption that you are cis and you were aware that they made this distinction then you are deceiving them into sex. Consent relies upon equal information.
i dont think the situation where they were aware that they made this distinction has come up
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On August 03 2013 06:45 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:43 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 06:40 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 Sokrates wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:
[quote]
coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this.
You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first".
Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. If i know a girl is really into astronauts and i tell her i m an astronaut to fuck her then i m a rapist? By my moral standard, yes. But the law can't possibly prove that her consent was entirely due to the lie and that she would not have otherwise consented so it's impossible to build a legal structure around that principle. Your moral standard does not stand up to others and implies a terrible crime that does not match the act in question. You may wish to find a new word, as you are offending the shit out of people. You think obtaining consent through deception is any better than obtaining it through force? If she doesn't want to have sex with you and you know she doesn't want to have sex with you and you do a thing that gets her to have sex with you then you're a rapist. but these people dont KNOW also just so ya'll know if we are ever about to get freaky irl you dont have to tell me what was between your legs when you were born
My place at 10?
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So when I see people calling others rapists when I know what those people are going through it makes me really upset.
For what it's worth, I don't think you're a rapist in this situation, unless you actually aren't outing yourself because you just want to increase your chances of getting laid/don't give a shit about other people's preferences. People who are traumatized by their history are absolutely deserving of our sympathy. Considering them rapists is absurd, counterproductive, and, frankly, cruel.
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United States41961 Posts
On August 03 2013 06:45 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:43 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 06:40 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 Sokrates wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:
[quote]
coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this.
You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first".
Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. If i know a girl is really into astronauts and i tell her i m an astronaut to fuck her then i m a rapist? By my moral standard, yes. But the law can't possibly prove that her consent was entirely due to the lie and that she would not have otherwise consented so it's impossible to build a legal structure around that principle. Your moral standard does not stand up to others and implies a terrible crime that does not match the act in question. You may wish to find a new word, as you are offending the shit out of people. You think obtaining consent through deception is any better than obtaining it through force? If she doesn't want to have sex with you and you know she doesn't want to have sex with you and you do a thing that gets her to have sex with you then you're a rapist. but these people dont KNOW also just so ya'll know if we are ever about to get freaky irl you dont have to tell me what was between your legs when you were born
If it's wrong for when you know they wouldn't consent then it's wrong for when you can be reasonably sure they wouldn't consent. It's a sliding scale.
For the record, nor you for me. I don't care either way. I would want a trans person who had no clue if I cared or not to disclose because I'd want someone who thought about that stuff and was considerate about it but a trans person who reads this post can go ahead and assume I give no fucks.
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On August 03 2013 06:42 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:38 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. Your disgust is ignorant and incredibly abhorrent. Consent, consent, consent, in a world of fake boobs and tanning booths you're stuck on a medical issue that is really none of your business and accusing us of keeping 'vital' information from you. It's a body modification just like fake boobs and a nose job yet it's somehow not rape if you fuck someone with fake boobs and a nose job without realizing it. Firstly, just none of my business. I don't actually have a problem with trans women vs cis women, both women to me. Stop trying to brand me with slurs that don't apply. Secondly, becomes the business of a transphobe about the time you ask them for consent. None of their business before. Is their business after. See the distinction? Thirdly, if fake boobs were a dealbreaker for a large number of people I would absolutely expect disclosure. There is no double standard here so stop trying that avenue, it doesn't go anywhere.
Well you're not getting disclosure and I'm definitely not a rapist for refusing to tell you. I've been beaten enough times to have made up my mind.
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On August 03 2013 06:48 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +So when I see people calling others rapists when I know what those people are going through it makes me really upset. For what it's worth, I don't think you're a rapist in this situation, unless you actually aren't outing yourself because you just want to increase your chances of getting laid/don't give a shit about other people's preferences. People who are traumatized by their history are absolutely deserving of our sympathy. Considering them rapists is absurd, counterproductive, and, frankly, cruel.
I am with Shiori on this one, it is cruel, but sadly we are powerless to stop the word from being used.
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On August 03 2013 06:47 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:45 ComaDose wrote:On August 03 2013 06:43 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 06:40 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 Sokrates wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. If i know a girl is really into astronauts and i tell her i m an astronaut to fuck her then i m a rapist? By my moral standard, yes. But the law can't possibly prove that her consent was entirely due to the lie and that she would not have otherwise consented so it's impossible to build a legal structure around that principle. Your moral standard does not stand up to others and implies a terrible crime that does not match the act in question. You may wish to find a new word, as you are offending the shit out of people. You think obtaining consent through deception is any better than obtaining it through force? If she doesn't want to have sex with you and you know she doesn't want to have sex with you and you do a thing that gets her to have sex with you then you're a rapist. but these people dont KNOW also just so ya'll know if we are ever about to get freaky irl you dont have to tell me what was between your legs when you were born My place at 10?
oh please.... we are going out to diner first obv!
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United States41961 Posts
On August 03 2013 06:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:45 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:37 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Actually, this is your position. By not giving men the opportunity for consent, you are effectively taking total reign over the implications of intimacy. Your definition ends up being the only thing that matters. They have the opportunity of consent and I have my privacy. They pick me up at the bar, what they see is what they get, and we fuck and that's it. Because as far as you're concerned there is no cis vs trans distinction. But you don't get to decide their criteria, they do. And if they do make a distinction and have sex with you acting under the assumption that you are cis and you were aware that they made this distinction then you are deceiving them into sex. Consent relies upon equal information. Consent relies on nothing of the sort.
And we're back to this one.
A guy has a twin who is married. The twins don't know each other as they were adopted separately. His twin's wife doesn't know her husband has a twin. One night the unmarried twin shows up and has sex with his brother's wife.
Is it her duty to ask her husband each time "is it you or your twin?" while knowing that he might possibly have a twin but probably doesn't or rather is it reasonable to assume the guy who looks like her husband is her husband. Likewise is it reasonable for the twin to assume that his brother's wife's consent is built on the assumption that he is her husband rather than her husband or his twin or whatever?
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On August 03 2013 06:48 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:42 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. Your disgust is ignorant and incredibly abhorrent. Consent, consent, consent, in a world of fake boobs and tanning booths you're stuck on a medical issue that is really none of your business and accusing us of keeping 'vital' information from you. It's a body modification just like fake boobs and a nose job yet it's somehow not rape if you fuck someone with fake boobs and a nose job without realizing it. Firstly, just none of my business. I don't actually have a problem with trans women vs cis women, both women to me. Stop trying to brand me with slurs that don't apply. Secondly, becomes the business of a transphobe about the time you ask them for consent. None of their business before. Is their business after. See the distinction? Thirdly, if fake boobs were a dealbreaker for a large number of people I would absolutely expect disclosure. There is no double standard here so stop trying that avenue, it doesn't go anywhere. Well you're not getting disclosure and I'm definitely not a rapist for refusing to tell you. I've been beaten enough times to have made up my mind.
Something doesn't become moral simply because the outcome is inconvenient. If someone asked would you tell them? Would you lie?
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On August 03 2013 06:49 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:47 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:45 ComaDose wrote:On August 03 2013 06:43 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 06:40 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 Sokrates wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid?
According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. If i know a girl is really into astronauts and i tell her i m an astronaut to fuck her then i m a rapist? By my moral standard, yes. But the law can't possibly prove that her consent was entirely due to the lie and that she would not have otherwise consented so it's impossible to build a legal structure around that principle. Your moral standard does not stand up to others and implies a terrible crime that does not match the act in question. You may wish to find a new word, as you are offending the shit out of people. You think obtaining consent through deception is any better than obtaining it through force? If she doesn't want to have sex with you and you know she doesn't want to have sex with you and you do a thing that gets her to have sex with you then you're a rapist. but these people dont KNOW also just so ya'll know if we are ever about to get freaky irl you dont have to tell me what was between your legs when you were born My place at 10? oh please.... we are going out to diner first obv!
I think you two are having more fun in this thread than the rest of us. Maybe we should just ignore Kwark and his misuse of the word rape.
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On August 03 2013 06:48 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:42 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. Your disgust is ignorant and incredibly abhorrent. Consent, consent, consent, in a world of fake boobs and tanning booths you're stuck on a medical issue that is really none of your business and accusing us of keeping 'vital' information from you. It's a body modification just like fake boobs and a nose job yet it's somehow not rape if you fuck someone with fake boobs and a nose job without realizing it. Firstly, just none of my business. I don't actually have a problem with trans women vs cis women, both women to me. Stop trying to brand me with slurs that don't apply. Secondly, becomes the business of a transphobe about the time you ask them for consent. None of their business before. Is their business after. See the distinction? Thirdly, if fake boobs were a dealbreaker for a large number of people I would absolutely expect disclosure. There is no double standard here so stop trying that avenue, it doesn't go anywhere. Well you're not getting disclosure and I'm definitely not a rapist for refusing to tell you. I've been beaten enough times to have made up my mind.
How does this follow? If you lived in a society wherein, say, raping your wife was required by convention, and that if anyone found out you weren't regularly raping your wife, a few gangsters/mobsters/priests/whatever would come and straighten you out, you'd still be a rapist when you rape your wife. Sure, you wouldn't be the worst person ever, but you'd still be doing something essentially wrong (though the culpability would depend a lot on the coherence of your mind in such a cruel society).
I'm not saying you're doing the same thing as this, but I am saying that it doesn't follow from "people have been violent when I've been honest" that "I have a right to lie" is the moral thing to do.
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United States41961 Posts
On August 03 2013 06:48 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:42 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. Your disgust is ignorant and incredibly abhorrent. Consent, consent, consent, in a world of fake boobs and tanning booths you're stuck on a medical issue that is really none of your business and accusing us of keeping 'vital' information from you. It's a body modification just like fake boobs and a nose job yet it's somehow not rape if you fuck someone with fake boobs and a nose job without realizing it. Firstly, just none of my business. I don't actually have a problem with trans women vs cis women, both women to me. Stop trying to brand me with slurs that don't apply. Secondly, becomes the business of a transphobe about the time you ask them for consent. None of their business before. Is their business after. See the distinction? Thirdly, if fake boobs were a dealbreaker for a large number of people I would absolutely expect disclosure. There is no double standard here so stop trying that avenue, it doesn't go anywhere. Well you're not getting disclosure and I'm definitely not a rapist for refusing to tell you. I've been beaten enough times to have made up my mind.
Whether or not you have to ask for consent doesn't actually change depending on the number of times you've been beaten up. It's this shit that pissed me off so much in the first place. I started off being like "whatever, it's courteous to say" but after page after page of "I don't care if they wouldn't want to have sex with me because..." I just wanna scream "DON'T YOU GUYS GET IT?!?".
It's either right to disclose or it's not. No amount of beatings have any bearing on that. If you thought it was right to disclose but then got beaten a bunch the correct option is "it's still right to disclose but I guess I can't have random hookups anymore". It is not "whatever, I'm tired of being beaten up, fuck everyone and their rights".
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Ok, so as an outsider of this whole discussion (but as someone who read through the last ~30 or so pages of it), the first thing which annoyed me is the term "rape" or "rapey". Withholding certain information which might be a dealbreaker to someone doesn't constitute "rape" after the fact. As someone pointed out, you could call it "deceptive" or "immoral" or "an asshole move", but rape is a lot more than that.
And in general, if you think a certain characteristic about you would make your potential sex partner go as far as consider you "disgusting" and you are VERY WELL aware that it's most likely to be the case because you fall into a certain outlier (like being a trans), why would you want to have sex with them? You can call it willful ignorance, but it's still strange from my pov. If you really aren't aware of a certain quality you might have which majority of the population would consider to be a dealbreaker (even if their reasons are stupid, like transphobia or "I don't like people with mixed race"), no one is going to say you are being immoral if the other person found you attractive in the first place.
But if you are reasonably intelligent and think something you know most people will consider to be such dealbreaker, not disclosing such information is definitely on the immoral "asshole" side.
Like, we aren't arguing about laws here of what you should say or what you shouldn't say, it's about your own awareness of what you know about society. I suppose the more you understand the bigger burden you need to carry in such circumstances, but such is life. I do agree with Kwark that transparency is important.
I do think that people who would be extremely weirded out or even disgusted for having had sex with a trans (even if they were attracted to them as they would be to any other woman) are simply a product of their culture. But if they really have such strong belief, why would you let them have sex with you?
I guess sex is just that important to some people? *shrug*.
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