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On August 03 2013 07:04 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 07:03 Snusmumriken wrote:re: misusing rape, phobia, racist etc. Ill just quote myself: Youre just washing out whatever meaning those words actually have for rethoric purpose, because guess what its uncomfortable to be called a racist or a bigot or a transphobe or a rapist. Its a cheapshot, its ridiculous, its used to push certain dogma and worst of all, it obscures communication.
I absolutely refuse to play that game. The difference is that KwarK actually wants to expand the notion of "rape" in a moral sense. He's not exaggerating, he literally thinks that you are a rapist.
Is Kwark this guy by any chance?
![[image loading]](http://www.ebbemunk.dk/alice/73a_humpty-dumpty.jpg)
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On August 03 2013 07:04 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 07:03 Snusmumriken wrote:re: misusing rape, phobia, racist etc. Ill just quote myself: Youre just washing out whatever meaning those words actually have for rethoric purpose, because guess what its uncomfortable to be called a racist or a bigot or a transphobe or a rapist. Its a cheapshot, its ridiculous, its used to push certain dogma and worst of all, it obscures communication.
I absolutely refuse to play that game. The difference is that KwarK actually wants to expand the notion of "rape" in a moral sense. He's not exaggerating, he literally thinks that you are a rapist.
I just want it to be known that I wasn't exaggerating, either. I genuinely think you're transphobic and/or a racist in the particular context that I was speaking earlier. Granted, a very harmless racist/transphobe.
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United States42552 Posts
On August 03 2013 07:04 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 07:03 Snusmumriken wrote:re: misusing rape, phobia, racist etc. Ill just quote myself: Youre just washing out whatever meaning those words actually have for rethoric purpose, because guess what its uncomfortable to be called a racist or a bigot or a transphobe or a rapist. Its a cheapshot, its ridiculous, its used to push certain dogma and worst of all, it obscures communication.
I absolutely refuse to play that game. The difference is that KwarK actually wants to expand the notion of "rape" in a moral sense. He's not exaggerating, he literally thinks that you are a rapist.
I think that if you know someone doesn't want to have sex with you and you disregard their lack of consent through any means, be it force, drugs, deception or whatever, then you're a rapist. If you think they don't want to have sex with you then you're just really rapey and should probably be in jail anyway.
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if i were a trans, after reading this thread, i would randomly start doing cis dudes then watch them go batshit crazy after telling them (from a safe vantage point) they just had sex with an ex-dude; film the reaction, then post it on youtube.
i mean, what would kwark do at that point?, be outraged? lol; sue me?. on what grounds?, his moral compass?.
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On August 03 2013 07:06 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 07:04 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 07:03 Snusmumriken wrote:re: misusing rape, phobia, racist etc. Ill just quote myself: Youre just washing out whatever meaning those words actually have for rethoric purpose, because guess what its uncomfortable to be called a racist or a bigot or a transphobe or a rapist. Its a cheapshot, its ridiculous, its used to push certain dogma and worst of all, it obscures communication.
I absolutely refuse to play that game. The difference is that KwarK actually wants to expand the notion of "rape" in a moral sense. He's not exaggerating, he literally thinks that you are a rapist. I think that if you know someone doesn't want to have sex with you and you disregard their lack of consent through any means, be it force, drugs, deception or whatever, then you're a rapist. If you think they don't want to have sex with you then you're just really rapey and should probably be in jail anyway.
Yeah. Fuck this discussion. I would have reported you several times over for being blatantly inflammatory, but apparently I can't.
So yeah, good time to call it quits.
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United States42552 Posts
On August 03 2013 07:05 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 07:01 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:49 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:45 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:37 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid?
According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Actually, this is your position. By not giving men the opportunity for consent, you are effectively taking total reign over the implications of intimacy. Your definition ends up being the only thing that matters. They have the opportunity of consent and I have my privacy. They pick me up at the bar, what they see is what they get, and we fuck and that's it. Because as far as you're concerned there is no cis vs trans distinction. But you don't get to decide their criteria, they do. And if they do make a distinction and have sex with you acting under the assumption that you are cis and you were aware that they made this distinction then you are deceiving them into sex. Consent relies upon equal information. Consent relies on nothing of the sort. And we're back to this one. A guy has a twin who is married. The twins don't know each other as they were adopted separately. His twin's wife doesn't know her husband has a twin. One night the unmarried twin shows up and has sex with his brother's wife. Is it her duty to ask her husband each time "is it you or your twin?" while knowing that he might possibly have a twin but probably doesn't or rather is it reasonable to assume the guy who looks like her husband is her husband. Likewise is it reasonable for the twin to assume that his brother's wife's consent is built on the assumption that he is her husband rather than her husband or his twin or whatever? ...your analogy is fucking horrible, and if this is what you're basing your entire logic on, then your logic is completely out of whack. Rape by impersonation is defined in law, along with consent obtained through impersonation. It is rape, and impersonation does not grant consent. Consent through "failure to disclose turnoffs" is not. Transphobic people believe that trans people are impersonating cis people. Doesn't matter if they're right or not, if that's their condition for consent and you are reasonably sure that that is their condition for consent and reasonably sure they think you're cis, you tell them. But they are still a singular person. Twins are not. Not even close. No matter what information you fail to disclose to a possible sex partner, you are still asking them to have sex with you. Your twin analogy sucks. Please stop.
I'm not convinced you understood it. Twin 2 is asking twin 1s wife for sex with him, the singular. The wife is then making a reasonable assumption about who she is about to fuck. Twin 2 knows that this assumption is not true but he doesn't care because he wants to fuck and anyway, if he asks she might have a problem with fucking people who aren't her husband and get mad and hurt him. And what's he meant to do, not get laid?
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On August 03 2013 07:04 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 07:03 Snusmumriken wrote:re: misusing rape, phobia, racist etc. Ill just quote myself: Youre just washing out whatever meaning those words actually have for rethoric purpose, because guess what its uncomfortable to be called a racist or a bigot or a transphobe or a rapist. Its a cheapshot, its ridiculous, its used to push certain dogma and worst of all, it obscures communication.
I absolutely refuse to play that game. The difference is that KwarK actually wants to expand the notion of "rape" in a moral sense. He's not exaggerating, he literally thinks that you are a rapist.
and thats incredible stupid and insulting by kwark.
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On August 03 2013 07:08 xM(Z wrote:
if i were a trans, after reading this thread, i would randomly start doing cis dudes then watch them go batshit crazy after telling them (from a safe vantage point) they just had sex with an ex-dude; film the reaction, then post it on youtube.
i mean, what would kwark do at that point?, be outraged? lol; sue me?. on what grounds?, his moral compass?.
I think a lot of people would think you are a bad person for doing that. KwarK isn't talking about the current legal definition, he wants to redefine rape.
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United States42552 Posts
On August 03 2013 07:08 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 07:06 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 07:04 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 07:03 Snusmumriken wrote:re: misusing rape, phobia, racist etc. Ill just quote myself: Youre just washing out whatever meaning those words actually have for rethoric purpose, because guess what its uncomfortable to be called a racist or a bigot or a transphobe or a rapist. Its a cheapshot, its ridiculous, its used to push certain dogma and worst of all, it obscures communication.
I absolutely refuse to play that game. The difference is that KwarK actually wants to expand the notion of "rape" in a moral sense. He's not exaggerating, he literally thinks that you are a rapist. I think that if you know someone doesn't want to have sex with you and you disregard their lack of consent through any means, be it force, drugs, deception or whatever, then you're a rapist. If you think they don't want to have sex with you then you're just really rapey and should probably be in jail anyway. Yeah. Fuck this discussion. I would have reported you several times over for being blatantly inflammatory, but apparently I can't. So yeah, good time to call it quits.
I'm really quite horrified that this isn't something immediately obvious to most people. If you know someone doesn't want to have sex with you and you have sex with them anyway then that's bad. Like how are we struggling with this one? Seriously?
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On August 03 2013 07:08 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 07:05 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 07:01 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:49 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:45 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:37 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:
[quote]
According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Actually, this is your position. By not giving men the opportunity for consent, you are effectively taking total reign over the implications of intimacy. Your definition ends up being the only thing that matters. They have the opportunity of consent and I have my privacy. They pick me up at the bar, what they see is what they get, and we fuck and that's it. Because as far as you're concerned there is no cis vs trans distinction. But you don't get to decide their criteria, they do. And if they do make a distinction and have sex with you acting under the assumption that you are cis and you were aware that they made this distinction then you are deceiving them into sex. Consent relies upon equal information. Consent relies on nothing of the sort. And we're back to this one. A guy has a twin who is married. The twins don't know each other as they were adopted separately. His twin's wife doesn't know her husband has a twin. One night the unmarried twin shows up and has sex with his brother's wife. Is it her duty to ask her husband each time "is it you or your twin?" while knowing that he might possibly have a twin but probably doesn't or rather is it reasonable to assume the guy who looks like her husband is her husband. Likewise is it reasonable for the twin to assume that his brother's wife's consent is built on the assumption that he is her husband rather than her husband or his twin or whatever? ...your analogy is fucking horrible, and if this is what you're basing your entire logic on, then your logic is completely out of whack. Rape by impersonation is defined in law, along with consent obtained through impersonation. It is rape, and impersonation does not grant consent. Consent through "failure to disclose turnoffs" is not. Transphobic people believe that trans people are impersonating cis people. Doesn't matter if they're right or not, if that's their condition for consent and you are reasonably sure that that is their condition for consent and reasonably sure they think you're cis, you tell them. But they are still a singular person. Twins are not. Not even close. No matter what information you fail to disclose to a possible sex partner, you are still asking them to have sex with you. Your twin analogy sucks. Please stop. I'm not convinced you understood it. Twin 2 is asking twin 1s wife for sex with him, the singular. The wife is then making a reasonable assumption about who she is about to fuck. Twin 2 knows that this assumption is not true but he doesn't care because he wants to fuck and anyway, if he asks she might have a problem with fucking people who aren't her husband and get mad and hurt him. And what's he meant to do, not get laid?
Rape by impersonation.
That has a definition that you can actually look up, and I highly suggest you start caring about words and phrases actually mean outside of your own imagination.
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On August 03 2013 07:06 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 07:04 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 07:03 Snusmumriken wrote:re: misusing rape, phobia, racist etc. Ill just quote myself: Youre just washing out whatever meaning those words actually have for rethoric purpose, because guess what its uncomfortable to be called a racist or a bigot or a transphobe or a rapist. Its a cheapshot, its ridiculous, its used to push certain dogma and worst of all, it obscures communication.
I absolutely refuse to play that game. The difference is that KwarK actually wants to expand the notion of "rape" in a moral sense. He's not exaggerating, he literally thinks that you are a rapist. I think that if you know someone doesn't want to have sex with you and you disregard their lack of consent through any means, be it force, drugs, deception or whatever, then you're a rapist. If you think they don't want to have sex with you then you're just really rapey and should probably be in jail anyway.
Technically trans people who don't state their status aren't doing this, because they actually don't know that the other person doesn't want to have sex with them on that basis. They know that it is plausible that if they told their partner such a thing, it could change their mind. That's not the same as rape at all. It's still wrong, but it's not rape anymore than cheating on your girlfriend is rape.
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United States42552 Posts
On August 03 2013 07:09 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 07:08 xM(Z wrote:
if i were a trans, after reading this thread, i would randomly start doing cis dudes then watch them go batshit crazy after telling them (from a safe vantage point) they just had sex with an ex-dude; film the reaction, then post it on youtube.
i mean, what would kwark do at that point?, be outraged? lol; sue me?. on what grounds?, his moral compass?. I think a lot of people would think you are a bad person for doing that. KwarK isn't talking about the current legal definition, he wants to redefine rape.
I'm genuinely amazed that some people think it's fine to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you as long as you tricked them. I understand that it's a grey area in terms of proving it and therefore impossible to legislate on but it ought not to be a grey area morally.
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On August 03 2013 07:10 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 07:08 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 07:06 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 07:04 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 07:03 Snusmumriken wrote:re: misusing rape, phobia, racist etc. Ill just quote myself: Youre just washing out whatever meaning those words actually have for rethoric purpose, because guess what its uncomfortable to be called a racist or a bigot or a transphobe or a rapist. Its a cheapshot, its ridiculous, its used to push certain dogma and worst of all, it obscures communication.
I absolutely refuse to play that game. The difference is that KwarK actually wants to expand the notion of "rape" in a moral sense. He's not exaggerating, he literally thinks that you are a rapist. I think that if you know someone doesn't want to have sex with you and you disregard their lack of consent through any means, be it force, drugs, deception or whatever, then you're a rapist. If you think they don't want to have sex with you then you're just really rapey and should probably be in jail anyway. Yeah. Fuck this discussion. I would have reported you several times over for being blatantly inflammatory, but apparently I can't. So yeah, good time to call it quits. I'm really quite horrified that this isn't something immediately obvious to most people. If you know someone doesn't want to have sex with you and you have sex with them anyway then that's bad. Like how are we struggling with this one? Seriously?
That's bad, indeed. But that's not a rape.
You don't have to go to jail just 'cause you're an asshole. That's the point you went too far for most of us.
This is not a rape. This is just being a fucking asshole & a jerk.
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United States42552 Posts
On August 03 2013 07:10 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 07:08 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 07:05 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 07:01 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:49 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:45 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:37 farvacola wrote:
[quote]
Actually, this is your position. By not giving men the opportunity for consent, you are effectively taking total reign over the implications of intimacy. Your definition ends up being the only thing that matters. They have the opportunity of consent and I have my privacy. They pick me up at the bar, what they see is what they get, and we fuck and that's it. Because as far as you're concerned there is no cis vs trans distinction. But you don't get to decide their criteria, they do. And if they do make a distinction and have sex with you acting under the assumption that you are cis and you were aware that they made this distinction then you are deceiving them into sex. Consent relies upon equal information. Consent relies on nothing of the sort. And we're back to this one. A guy has a twin who is married. The twins don't know each other as they were adopted separately. His twin's wife doesn't know her husband has a twin. One night the unmarried twin shows up and has sex with his brother's wife. Is it her duty to ask her husband each time "is it you or your twin?" while knowing that he might possibly have a twin but probably doesn't or rather is it reasonable to assume the guy who looks like her husband is her husband. Likewise is it reasonable for the twin to assume that his brother's wife's consent is built on the assumption that he is her husband rather than her husband or his twin or whatever? ...your analogy is fucking horrible, and if this is what you're basing your entire logic on, then your logic is completely out of whack. Rape by impersonation is defined in law, along with consent obtained through impersonation. It is rape, and impersonation does not grant consent. Consent through "failure to disclose turnoffs" is not. Transphobic people believe that trans people are impersonating cis people. Doesn't matter if they're right or not, if that's their condition for consent and you are reasonably sure that that is their condition for consent and reasonably sure they think you're cis, you tell them. But they are still a singular person. Twins are not. Not even close. No matter what information you fail to disclose to a possible sex partner, you are still asking them to have sex with you. Your twin analogy sucks. Please stop. I'm not convinced you understood it. Twin 2 is asking twin 1s wife for sex with him, the singular. The wife is then making a reasonable assumption about who she is about to fuck. Twin 2 knows that this assumption is not true but he doesn't care because he wants to fuck and anyway, if he asks she might have a problem with fucking people who aren't her husband and get mad and hurt him. And what's he meant to do, not get laid? Rape by impersonation. That has a definition that you can actually look up, and I highly suggest you start caring about words and phrases actually mean outside of your own imagination.
And transphobic people believe that their trans partner is impersonating a cis person. This is circular. The analogy holds.
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On August 03 2013 07:12 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 07:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 07:08 xM(Z wrote:
if i were a trans, after reading this thread, i would randomly start doing cis dudes then watch them go batshit crazy after telling them (from a safe vantage point) they just had sex with an ex-dude; film the reaction, then post it on youtube.
i mean, what would kwark do at that point?, be outraged? lol; sue me?. on what grounds?, his moral compass?. I think a lot of people would think you are a bad person for doing that. KwarK isn't talking about the current legal definition, he wants to redefine rape. I'm genuinely amazed that some people think it's fine to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you as long as you tricked them. I understand that it's a grey area in terms of proving it and therefore impossible to legislate on but it ought not to be a grey area morally.
...so basically your argument is that transexuals should assume no one ever wants to have sex with them.
...this hole just keeps getting deeper.
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On August 03 2013 07:12 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 07:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 07:08 xM(Z wrote:
if i were a trans, after reading this thread, i would randomly start doing cis dudes then watch them go batshit crazy after telling them (from a safe vantage point) they just had sex with an ex-dude; film the reaction, then post it on youtube.
i mean, what would kwark do at that point?, be outraged? lol; sue me?. on what grounds?, his moral compass?. I think a lot of people would think you are a bad person for doing that. KwarK isn't talking about the current legal definition, he wants to redefine rape. I'm genuinely amazed that some people think it's fine to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you as long as you tricked them. I understand that it's a grey area in terms of proving it and therefore impossible to legislate on but it ought not to be a grey area morally.
I don't think its fine, but personally I wouldn't call that particular transgression "rape". Especially because people have very strong opinions about "rape". However I would say you're being an asshole if you do that.
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On August 03 2013 07:03 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 07:00 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:56 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:54 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:50 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:48 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:38 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:32 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:
[quote]
According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important. Your disgust is ignorant and incredibly abhorrent. Consent, consent, consent, in a world of fake boobs and tanning booths you're stuck on a medical issue that is really none of your business and accusing us of keeping 'vital' information from you. It's a body modification just like fake boobs and a nose job yet it's somehow not rape if you fuck someone with fake boobs and a nose job without realizing it. Firstly, just none of my business. I don't actually have a problem with trans women vs cis women, both women to me. Stop trying to brand me with slurs that don't apply. Secondly, becomes the business of a transphobe about the time you ask them for consent. None of their business before. Is their business after. See the distinction? Thirdly, if fake boobs were a dealbreaker for a large number of people I would absolutely expect disclosure. There is no double standard here so stop trying that avenue, it doesn't go anywhere. Well you're not getting disclosure and I'm definitely not a rapist for refusing to tell you. I've been beaten enough times to have made up my mind. Something doesn't become moral simply because the outcome is inconvenient. If someone asked would you tell them? Would you lie? Being beaten is a bit more than inconvenient don't you think? If they asked I'd probably try to brush it off and find out if they're transphobic enough to put me in danger. I'm not going to have sex with someone that has a chance of hurting me but I also won't give out that information on the fly. So inconvenient that it takes priority over whatever dealbreakers they might have on who they have sex with? Because it inconveniences your getting laid... The rights of everyone else are not obstacles to be ignored when you wanna fuck. And then it suddenly becomes my job to be the all magical seer of people's kinks and kink-outs. If you want to talk about total disclosure do it on a dating site but it shouldn't be expected during a hookup. No, if you legitimately thought it wasn't an issue because they had some random unexpected hangup which you couldn't have seen coming or if you were a member of a sizable minority which they could have anticipated then no, it is not your job. I don't ask the impossible from you. I don't ask magic, wizardry, seeing the future or anything of the sort. I ask that you recognize that you are such a significant minority you cannot be reasonably anticipated and that a phobia of your minority is sufficiently common that it can be anticipated. Get it?
There we go at least that's something.
I get that people are douche bags, trust me, and if it were simply so complicated as "this is too tough" then we wouldn't be having this conversation as tough problems can be worked through. But it should also be unreasonable to expect someone to confess to something that could very easily ruin their life as there are douche bags out there and you can damn sure expect that if they're transphobic they'll have little problem with being vocal about it.
See, sex gets a bit more interesting when the success of your life can hinge on a hook-up which makes the whole consent from withholding information argument feel less important.
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On August 03 2013 07:12 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 07:10 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 07:08 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 07:05 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 07:01 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:58 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:49 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:45 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 fugs wrote:
[quote]
They have the opportunity of consent and I have my privacy. They pick me up at the bar, what they see is what they get, and we fuck and that's it.
Because as far as you're concerned there is no cis vs trans distinction. But you don't get to decide their criteria, they do. And if they do make a distinction and have sex with you acting under the assumption that you are cis and you were aware that they made this distinction then you are deceiving them into sex. Consent relies upon equal information. Consent relies on nothing of the sort. And we're back to this one. A guy has a twin who is married. The twins don't know each other as they were adopted separately. His twin's wife doesn't know her husband has a twin. One night the unmarried twin shows up and has sex with his brother's wife. Is it her duty to ask her husband each time "is it you or your twin?" while knowing that he might possibly have a twin but probably doesn't or rather is it reasonable to assume the guy who looks like her husband is her husband. Likewise is it reasonable for the twin to assume that his brother's wife's consent is built on the assumption that he is her husband rather than her husband or his twin or whatever? ...your analogy is fucking horrible, and if this is what you're basing your entire logic on, then your logic is completely out of whack. Rape by impersonation is defined in law, along with consent obtained through impersonation. It is rape, and impersonation does not grant consent. Consent through "failure to disclose turnoffs" is not. Transphobic people believe that trans people are impersonating cis people. Doesn't matter if they're right or not, if that's their condition for consent and you are reasonably sure that that is their condition for consent and reasonably sure they think you're cis, you tell them. But they are still a singular person. Twins are not. Not even close. No matter what information you fail to disclose to a possible sex partner, you are still asking them to have sex with you. Your twin analogy sucks. Please stop. I'm not convinced you understood it. Twin 2 is asking twin 1s wife for sex with him, the singular. The wife is then making a reasonable assumption about who she is about to fuck. Twin 2 knows that this assumption is not true but he doesn't care because he wants to fuck and anyway, if he asks she might have a problem with fucking people who aren't her husband and get mad and hurt him. And what's he meant to do, not get laid? Rape by impersonation. That has a definition that you can actually look up, and I highly suggest you start caring about words and phrases actually mean outside of your own imagination. And transphobic people believe that their trans partner is impersonating a cis person. This is circular. The analogy holds.
DEFINITION. LOOK IT UP.
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On August 03 2013 07:10 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 07:08 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 07:06 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 07:04 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 07:03 Snusmumriken wrote:re: misusing rape, phobia, racist etc. Ill just quote myself: Youre just washing out whatever meaning those words actually have for rethoric purpose, because guess what its uncomfortable to be called a racist or a bigot or a transphobe or a rapist. Its a cheapshot, its ridiculous, its used to push certain dogma and worst of all, it obscures communication.
I absolutely refuse to play that game. The difference is that KwarK actually wants to expand the notion of "rape" in a moral sense. He's not exaggerating, he literally thinks that you are a rapist. I think that if you know someone doesn't want to have sex with you and you disregard their lack of consent through any means, be it force, drugs, deception or whatever, then you're a rapist. If you think they don't want to have sex with you then you're just really rapey and should probably be in jail anyway. Yeah. Fuck this discussion. I would have reported you several times over for being blatantly inflammatory, but apparently I can't. So yeah, good time to call it quits. I'm really quite horrified that this isn't something immediately obvious to most people. If you know someone doesn't want to have sex with you and you have sex with them anyway then that's bad. Like how are we struggling with this one? Seriously?
The issue people are having with transphobes like yourself (you said you were a more transphobic earlier, so you're transphobic and should be named and shamed for it, to follow your logic) is that you're purposesly conflating know and might. You're conflating 'trapping' someone and a casual interaction. You're using bad analogies (I'm not going to dismantle the twin argument again, I did it earlier to such an extent that the OP of it stopped using it) and you're purposely being disruptive.
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On August 03 2013 06:49 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:46 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:45 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:42 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:37 farvacola wrote:On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure.
[quote]
In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all. Actually, this is your position. By not giving men the opportunity for consent, you are effectively taking total reign over the implications of intimacy. Your definition ends up being the only thing that matters. They have the opportunity of consent and I have my privacy. They pick me up at the bar, what they see is what they get, and we fuck and that's it. Because as far as you're concerned there is no cis vs trans distinction. But you don't get to decide their criteria, they do. And if they do make a distinction and have sex with you acting under the assumption that you are cis and you were aware that they made this distinction then you are deceiving them into sex. Consent relies upon equal information. Consent relies on nothing of the sort. And we're back to this one. A guy has a twin who is married. The twins don't know each other as they were adopted separately. His twin's wife doesn't know her husband has a twin. One night the unmarried twin shows up and has sex with his brother's wife. Is it her duty to ask her husband each time "is it you or your twin?" while knowing that he might possibly have a twin but probably doesn't or rather is it reasonable to assume the guy who looks like her husband is her husband. Likewise is it reasonable for the twin to assume that his brother's wife's consent is built on the assumption that he is her husband rather than her husband or his twin or whatever?
I dont think this is a an analogous example. In this scenario the woman has consented to have sex with one person, but unknowingly has sex with another person. The twin knows that the consent is for the brother and not him. I would call this rape. In the case of having sex with a trans woman, the guy has sex with the same person he gives consent to, the consent is just not (fully) informed.
I think we all accept that full disclosure is not required when presenting yourself to potential sex partners. I have many bad qualities I am not keen on presenting to people I want to have sex with. Many people will straight up lie about their age, their job, etc. and I would say everyone distorts the truth atleast a little sometimes. And we think very little of it. The only reason you could argue that being trans is special, is that unfortunately for a large majority of people, it WOULD be a dealbreaker.
I´m not sure where I stand. I don´t think I would be comfortable having sex with a woman that I know is trans. I would sure appreciate it if transwomen would let me know, so I could take the information into account. But I think (and hope) that I wouldn´t respond with outrage if I found out about it after the fact. At worst its somewhat morally questionable, I think.
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EPT
