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On August 03 2013 06:18 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:17 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 06:14 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:12 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:11 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:05 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:01 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 05:52 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 05:48 fugs wrote:
[quote]
Oh I'd hate to sicken yet another individual, it's not like the world is full of you people. Stop fucking around and grow up. You definitely don't sound tolerant of trans people since you keep yelling rape. Maybe you should take a look at your own damned moral compass, it's not our job to cater to you. It's not our responsibility to guide your penis around the bar.
"Its not my job to keep her legs shut, she never said no" Oh how easy it is for a man to link rape and 'trickery', as if you've ever been raped. It's fucking offensive as hell hearing this argument. For starters none of you fucks know what it's like to be held down and raped so don't fucking act like you've been there. And second take a gander and the obvious double standards you're blowing out your ass. Oh she's a virgin, oh she's a blonde, oh she's nerdy, oh she's got brown eyes, oh she's got long hair. Wanna know something? She's lying about every single fucking one of those things, she's not a virgin, her natural hair color is red, she hasn't picked up a video card in her life, she's wearing contact lenses, and she has hair extensions in. Yet that's not a fucking problem for you is it? But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. I wasn't trying to advance the argument that its rape to withhold that information, I was merely commenting that the idea that it couldn't possibly be rape because "they're the ones that put their dick inside of me" is kind of sexist. You're right that I haven't been raped, but not all instances of it are violent. The question is what extent is someone allowed to go to in order to get consent from a sexual partner? Do you go out of your way to list the reasons why your one-night-stands should not fuck you? Didn't think so. well I'm a virgin so its not come up yet :/ Anyway, that wasn't the issue at hand when I made that comment. fugs was basically insinuating that it can only be rape if you're the person doing the penetrating. Its not. That's not really the best assumption to have... No, fugs was speaking from her own personal viewpoint...so naturally her perspective is from a female with male partners. I understand her viewpoint. I'm trying to say that "I was the one being penetrated" does not prove that it wasn't rape, and that was exactly the evidence that she was offering. Rape is strictly defined by the partner being unwilling during the act. Anything else is just deception and being an asshole. Legally sure. The moral standard I'm explaining would be impossible to turn into a law because it's all grey areas about what is reasonable to assume and what isn't. But it doesn't mean that there is no right and wrong there.
I think that a lot of people are upset that you're using a term that has a very specific legal context even though you admit that you're using it outside that context. I mean, I feel like I agree with you on the substance of "at some point it is immoral not to reveal information about yourself in order to get consent" but if you keep calling it rape there is never going to be any serious discussion.
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United States43024 Posts
On August 03 2013 06:19 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:17 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:12 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:08 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 ComaDose wrote:On August 03 2013 06:04 Shiori wrote:
There hasn't been a single good reason as to why one shouldn't just say that they're trans. The last time they did they got beat up. And we're back to the "my life is hard so I should be able to disregard informed consent" argument. It doesn't work that way. Two wrongs don't make a right. This is a universal standard. You know what, he's right. Getting the living shit kicked out of you shouldn't deter you from going through the same experience again and again and again. It's as Freud predicted. "Because it's a binary choice. Get beat up or disregard consent. What do you want me to do, not get laid? Amirite?" I see you've never been beaten up over sex. *wink*
Nope, none of my partners have ever beaten me up. Again, trans people who have have my sympathy but not permission to disregard consent altogether which seems to be what a number of them are demanding.
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On August 03 2013 06:19 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:17 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:12 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:08 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 ComaDose wrote:On August 03 2013 06:04 Shiori wrote:
There hasn't been a single good reason as to why one shouldn't just say that they're trans. The last time they did they got beat up. And we're back to the "my life is hard so I should be able to disregard informed consent" argument. It doesn't work that way. Two wrongs don't make a right. This is a universal standard. You know what, he's right. Getting the living shit kicked out of you shouldn't deter you from going through the same experience again and again and again. It's as Freud predicted. "Because it's a binary choice. Get beat up or disregard consent. What do you want me to do, not get laid? Amirite?" I see you've never been beaten up over sex. *wink*
there is a third option. Don't tell them and don't have sex. That option might suck, but KwarK is trying to say that sometimes you have to pass up sex if you want to do the right thing.
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jesus fucking christ, this thread used to be kind of decent.
Please kwark, just stop with this "rape" nonsense. its pointless, offending and hilariously wrong.
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On August 03 2013 06:19 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:18 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 06:15 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:13 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:12 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:10 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:07 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:01 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 05:52 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 05:48 fugs wrote:
[quote]
Oh I'd hate to sicken yet another individual, it's not like the world is full of you people. Stop fucking around and grow up. You definitely don't sound tolerant of trans people since you keep yelling rape. Maybe you should take a look at your own damned moral compass, it's not our job to cater to you. It's not our responsibility to guide your penis around the bar.
"Its not my job to keep her legs shut, she never said no" Oh how easy it is for a man to link rape and 'trickery', as if you've ever been raped. It's fucking offensive as hell hearing this argument. For starters none of you fucks know what it's like to be held down and raped so don't fucking act like you've been there. And second take a gander and the obvious double standards you're blowing out your ass. Oh she's a virgin, oh she's a blonde, oh she's nerdy, oh she's got brown eyes, oh she's got long hair. Wanna know something? She's lying about every single fucking one of those things, she's not a virgin, her natural hair color is red, she hasn't picked up a video card in her life, she's wearing contact lenses, and she has hair extensions in. Yet that's not a fucking problem for you is it? But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Nope, I always, always get angry about issues of consent on tl and I have zero problems with trans people who don't go "consent is inconvenient so I choose for them". So not only are you loose about your use of "rape", but also the use of "consent". Brilliant. Consent built on false assumptions that one party knows is false is not consent by the moral standard of pretty much anyone but a sociopath. And now I ask this to you: How many of your possible turnoffs do you tell your possible one-night-stands? If your answer is anything except "all of them", apparently you are a sociopath by your own definition. Or knowingly immoral. I don't do one night stands. I like to know the people I fuck. But no, I apply a standard of reasonableness which I have explained over and over. If it is reasonable to assume they know, or considered it and don't care, then you're in the clear. For example if you're a member of a significant minority (0.01% doesn't count). Likewise if it is reasonable to assume they do not have that hangup, either indicated by the context or if it is just an unusual hangup, then you're in the clear. So they don't need to out themselves, they just need to confirm that it wouldn't be a problem or have a reasonable belief of that, correct? Pretty much. If I was married and trying to hook up with someone I might reasonably think their consent was built on me being single (because for a lot of people that is a dealbreaker) so I'd tell them. However if I was married and at a swingers bar I would have reason to assume that they didn't mind about their partners being married so I wouldn't care about it.
Ok, why didn't you say that in the first place rather than accusing everyone of rape(and badly misuing the word)? I don't think anyone is going to object to "yo, you should maybe feel out the person first and make sure they aren't going to freak out if they find out your transgender. After all, you don't want to exploit the person."
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On August 03 2013 06:21 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:19 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:17 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:12 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:08 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 ComaDose wrote:On August 03 2013 06:04 Shiori wrote:
There hasn't been a single good reason as to why one shouldn't just say that they're trans. The last time they did they got beat up. And we're back to the "my life is hard so I should be able to disregard informed consent" argument. It doesn't work that way. Two wrongs don't make a right. This is a universal standard. You know what, he's right. Getting the living shit kicked out of you shouldn't deter you from going through the same experience again and again and again. It's as Freud predicted. "Because it's a binary choice. Get beat up or disregard consent. What do you want me to do, not get laid? Amirite?" I see you've never been beaten up over sex. *wink* Nope, none of my partners have ever beaten me up. Again, trans people who have have my sympathy but not permission to disregard consent altogether which seems to be what a number of them are demanding.
'
And I bet every girl that told you she was a virgin was really a virgin. You must be reeling.
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On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with.
Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf.
The problem with this is that you don't seem to understand how badly outing yourself in a community can be. It's not just about the immediate violence, you run the risk of never being a man or woman again that community, you're now the trans man or woman. This means you have to deal with all the same crap that you did when you transitioned that after passing and surgery and maybe moving somewhere new you had hoped to leave behing. No one transitions to be a transexual, it's just a medical thing you have to do because it's the least worst option on the way to transitioning to being your actual sex according to your gender.
The problems you can face for casually outing yourself can include unemployment, harrassment, being ostricised, assault (even if not right then from the person you tell), media attention (if your history is deemed weird), rape, and murder or suicide. I think the discussion would reach a better understanding if people understood what a big risk it is. I appreciate, and am honestly thankful, that for the most part those who don't realise immediately don't because they're tolerant and decent people who would find such consequences appauling, but you have to realise that these concerns are real or everyone is going to keep talking past each other.
Do you have any actual statistics on any of this? I'll accept that ostracizing, harassment, and general disgust are things would could reasonably think might happen if a stranger discovers one is trans. That said, the rest of this is pretty much either a wild exaggeration or just not really realistic. The random person you run into at a bar/club is pretty unlikely to devote the rest of his/her life to tracking you down, getting you fired from your job (???) beating the shit out of you, raping you, going to the media (???) and/or murdering you. It's just not worth it. The only reasons I can think of anyone would even conceivably be pissed off enough to do any of these things is
1) if you told them after you had sex with them
2) if you dated them for several dates and still never told them
3) if you told them in a way that was clearly meant to be sardonic (I'm not sure if this ever happens, but I guess it's hypothetically possible)
Like, who the fuck is going to spontaneously murder you just because they happened to find out that you're trans? Like, unless you were already having sex with them, or perhaps doing something physical, then why do they have any reason whatsoever to feel violated? While I'm sure there are some people crazy enough to attack someone simply because they happened to have a conversation, it's pretty obvious that these types of people are rare. It's completely unrealistic to assume that if one is in the business of finding one night stands, that telling someone one is trans before any intimacy is presumed is going to result in any serious violence.
I accept that outing yourself is hard. Yes, it is. People are extremely disrespectful to minority groups, and trans people get some of the worst of it. But the fact is, nobody is asking you to go on national television and out yourself. They're telling you to out yourself to people you want to have sex with. I mean, I'd say that the same obligation would probably rest on gay men who, for whatever reason, have sex with straight women (and in some cases even marry them). Yes, there are good reasons to fear outing oneself, but they do not override the other person. You cannot assume that the other person is a murderer/rapist/violent individual because nowhere near most people are. You can assume that most people are either uncomfortable with fucking a trans person or that they are actually bigots. The former is preference, the latter is unjustifiable, but both of them are legitimate with regard to choosing sexual partners.
And I bet every girl that told you she was a virgin was really a virgin. You must be reeling.
I don't think this matters to most people in a one night stand.
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I dont know this is a really fucked up discussion:
One the one side the homophobic/transphobic shouting if someone doesnt like to have sex with trans people. Deal with it.
On the otherside: Trans people not telling they are trans is rape. Deal with it.
Sry people are really exaggerating big time. We are all grown up people, why so sensitive?
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On August 03 2013 06:24 Sokrates wrote:
I dont know this is a really fucked up discussion:
One the one side the homophobic/transphobic shouting if someone doesnt like to have sex with trans people. Deal with it.
On the otherside: Trans people not telling they are trans is rape. Deal with it.
Sry people are really exaggerating big time. We are all grown up people, why so sensitive?
Ok, I agree with Sokrates, so clearly this thread has gone off the deep end.
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United States43024 Posts
On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf.
Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid?
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On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf.
"never go to someones house where there is the risk of sexual activity if you are trans and have not told them yet"
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On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid?
Come on KwarK, surely you could recognize that people might not want to publicly out themselves as trans before going home with somebody. You could reveal it in private, or if you're not sure then don't reveal it, but you probably shouldn't have sex with them then.
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On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid?
According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all.
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On August 03 2013 06:22 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:19 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:17 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:12 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:08 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 ComaDose wrote:On August 03 2013 06:04 Shiori wrote:
There hasn't been a single good reason as to why one shouldn't just say that they're trans. The last time they did they got beat up. And we're back to the "my life is hard so I should be able to disregard informed consent" argument. It doesn't work that way. Two wrongs don't make a right. This is a universal standard. You know what, he's right. Getting the living shit kicked out of you shouldn't deter you from going through the same experience again and again and again. It's as Freud predicted. "Because it's a binary choice. Get beat up or disregard consent. What do you want me to do, not get laid? Amirite?" I see you've never been beaten up over sex. *wink* there is a third option. Don't tell them and don't have sex. That option might suck, but KwarK is trying to say that sometimes you have to pass up sex if you want to do the right thing.
IMO, a one-night-stand is a no-attachment experience which has absolutely no requirement for any sort of personal knowledge. If you consent before, consent during, and walk away with nothing except a fun memory, then all is fair.
An actual relationship, though, should have at least mutual trust.
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On August 03 2013 06:29 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:22 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:19 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:17 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:12 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:08 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 ComaDose wrote:On August 03 2013 06:04 Shiori wrote:
There hasn't been a single good reason as to why one shouldn't just say that they're trans. The last time they did they got beat up. And we're back to the "my life is hard so I should be able to disregard informed consent" argument. It doesn't work that way. Two wrongs don't make a right. This is a universal standard. You know what, he's right. Getting the living shit kicked out of you shouldn't deter you from going through the same experience again and again and again. It's as Freud predicted. "Because it's a binary choice. Get beat up or disregard consent. What do you want me to do, not get laid? Amirite?" I see you've never been beaten up over sex. *wink* there is a third option. Don't tell them and don't have sex. That option might suck, but KwarK is trying to say that sometimes you have to pass up sex if you want to do the right thing. IMO, a one-night-stand is a no-attachment experience which has absolutely no requirement for any sort of personal knowledge. If you consent before, consent during, and walk away with nothing except a fun memory, then all is fair. An actual relationship, though, should have at least mutual trust.
You don't get to decide whether or not they feel strongly about the relationship, however brief. Perhaps it doesn;t mean much to you, but that doesn't mean it doesn't mean much to them.
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On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +The problem with this is that you don't seem to understand how badly outing yourself in a community can be. It's not just about the immediate violence, you run the risk of never being a man or woman again that community, you're now the trans man or woman. This means you have to deal with all the same crap that you did when you transitioned that after passing and surgery and maybe moving somewhere new you had hoped to leave behing. No one transitions to be a transexual, it's just a medical thing you have to do because it's the least worst option on the way to transitioning to being your actual sex according to your gender.
The problems you can face for casually outing yourself can include unemployment, harrassment, being ostricised, assault (even if not right then from the person you tell), media attention (if your history is deemed weird), rape, and murder or suicide. I think the discussion would reach a better understanding if people understood what a big risk it is. I appreciate, and am honestly thankful, that for the most part those who don't realise immediately don't because they're tolerant and decent people who would find such consequences appauling, but you have to realise that these concerns are real or everyone is going to keep talking past each other. Do you have any actual statistics on any of this? I'll accept that ostracizing, harassment, and general disgust are things would could reasonably think might happen if a stranger discovers one is trans. That said, the rest of this is pretty much either a wild exaggeration or just not really realistic. The random person you run into at a bar/club is pretty unlikely to devote the rest of his/her life to tracking you down, getting you fired from your job (???) beating the shit out of you, raping you, going to the media (???) and/or murdering you. It's just not worth it. The only reasons I can think of anyone would even conceivably be pissed off enough to do any of these things is 1) if you told them after you had sex with them 2) if you dated them for several dates and still never told them 3) if you told them in a way that was clearly meant to be sardonic (I'm not sure if this ever happens, but I guess it's hypothetically possible) Like, who the fuck is going to spontaneously murder you just because they happened to find out that you're trans? Like, unless you were already having sex with them, or perhaps doing something physical, then why do they have any reason whatsoever to feel violated? While I'm sure there are some people crazy enough to attack someone simply because they happened to have a conversation, it's pretty obvious that these types of people are rare. It's completely unrealistic to assume that if one is in the business of finding one night stands, that telling someone one is trans before any intimacy is presumed is going to result in any serious violence. I accept that outing yourself is hard. Yes, it is. People are extremely disrespectful to minority groups, and trans people get some of the worst of it. But the fact is, nobody is asking you to go on national television and out yourself. They're telling you to out yourself to people you want to have sex with. I mean, I'd say that the same obligation would probably rest on gay men who, for whatever reason, have sex with straight women (and in some cases even marry them). Yes, there are good reasons to fear outing oneself, but they do not override the other person. You cannot assume that the other person is a murderer/rapist/violent individual because nowhere near most people are. You can assume that most people are either uncomfortable with fucking a trans person or that they are actually bigots. The former is preference, the latter is unjustifiable, but both of them are legitimate with regard to choosing sexual partners.
It doesn't take just one person. When the information is out, it spreads. They tell a friend, they see you again and point you out maybe. News gets around.
Transgender facts
Although social acceptance for transgender people is growing, parents continue to abandon youth with gender-identity issues when their children need them most, advocates say.
49 per cent of transgender people attempt suicide.
Transgender youth account for 18 per cent of homeless people in cities such as Chicago, but researchers estimate fewer than 1 in 1,000 people is transgender.
1 in 12 transgender people in America is murdered.
Transgender youth whose parents pressure them to conform to their anatomical gender report higher levels of depression, illegal drug use, suicide attempts and unsafe sex than peers who receive little or no pressure from parents.
Less than 1 to 1.5 per cent of individuals experience persistent regret after sex-reassignment surgery.
Sources: Guidelines for Transgender Care (2006), Gender Spectrum Education and Training, Families in TRANSition (2008)
Yeah, I know this stuff happens. I could give you a list of things that have happened to just me personally without pissing off anyone and you would almost certainly call me a liar. I've been followed by mobs of men screaming abuse at me, I've been assaulted in a police station in front of cops - which I was at for reporting an attempting mugging which was also clearly transphobic. I've had family members attacked in the street for being related to me. And that's not even to begin.
This stuff really happens.
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On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all.
I don't know why you always want this to be a boys vs girls thing. In KwarKs opinion its equally duplicitous for a transman not to tell his partner, be they male or female. Its not about who has the penis.
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United States43024 Posts
On August 03 2013 06:28 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:26 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:23 Shiori wrote:On August 03 2013 06:09 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 Shiori wrote:But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Wait. I thought Kwarik was freaking out and everyone was politely telling him to calm down. Now I'm a bigot because I want to sleep with cis women. Go figure. The last time they did they got beat up. In public? coming out as trans isn't always something that happens in public. Picture this. You're at his place, you've been kissing, you both want to go further, but you decide to let them know "there's something I want to tell you first". Next thing you know he's hitting you, calling you a freak, etc. It can get ugly fast, and its a problem that a lot of trans people have to deal with. Uhhhh, why would you ever go home with someone before having this conversation? Seriously. Wtf. Because, according to several trans posters, the conversation is hard and what am I supposed to do, not get laid? According to several male cis posters it's the girl's job to do the thinking during sex. Need to make sure the boys don't end up doing something their tiny minds might regret after all.
Nope, applies both ways. Stop trying to paint me as a sexist, my disgust from you come from my feminist convictions about consent being really important.
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On August 03 2013 06:22 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:19 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:18 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 06:15 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:13 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:12 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:10 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:07 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:01 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 05:52 packrat386 wrote:
[quote]
"Its not my job to keep her legs shut, she never said no" Oh how easy it is for a man to link rape and 'trickery', as if you've ever been raped. It's fucking offensive as hell hearing this argument. For starters none of you fucks know what it's like to be held down and raped so don't fucking act like you've been there. And second take a gander and the obvious double standards you're blowing out your ass. Oh she's a virgin, oh she's a blonde, oh she's nerdy, oh she's got brown eyes, oh she's got long hair. Wanna know something? She's lying about every single fucking one of those things, she's not a virgin, her natural hair color is red, she hasn't picked up a video card in her life, she's wearing contact lenses, and she has hair extensions in. Yet that's not a fucking problem for you is it? But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot. Nope, I always, always get angry about issues of consent on tl and I have zero problems with trans people who don't go "consent is inconvenient so I choose for them". So not only are you loose about your use of "rape", but also the use of "consent". Brilliant. Consent built on false assumptions that one party knows is false is not consent by the moral standard of pretty much anyone but a sociopath. And now I ask this to you: How many of your possible turnoffs do you tell your possible one-night-stands? If your answer is anything except "all of them", apparently you are a sociopath by your own definition. Or knowingly immoral. I don't do one night stands. I like to know the people I fuck. But no, I apply a standard of reasonableness which I have explained over and over. If it is reasonable to assume they know, or considered it and don't care, then you're in the clear. For example if you're a member of a significant minority (0.01% doesn't count). Likewise if it is reasonable to assume they do not have that hangup, either indicated by the context or if it is just an unusual hangup, then you're in the clear. So they don't need to out themselves, they just need to confirm that it wouldn't be a problem or have a reasonable belief of that, correct? Pretty much. If I was married and trying to hook up with someone I might reasonably think their consent was built on me being single (because for a lot of people that is a dealbreaker) so I'd tell them. However if I was married and at a swingers bar I would have reason to assume that they didn't mind about their partners being married so I wouldn't care about it. Ok, why didn't you say that in the first place rather than accusing everyone of rape(and badly misuing the word)? I don't think anyone is going to object to "yo, you should maybe feel out the person first and make sure they aren't going to freak out if they find out your transgender. After all, you don't want to exploit the person."
This.
Everyone in here agreed that in the (theoretically) given situation of you knowing something to be a dealbreaker and still withholding said information, that'd be really immoral.
Now we had the one extreme a couple pages ago and now we're on the other side of the extreme because again, people got pissed (understandably) about the choice of words.
Think about what Kwark said and ignore the words for a second because he does like to be harsh. He said that if you're in that situation and don't care about it it's immoral. That's what he's saying while being really edgy about it (when he says "rapey" it's edgy, when he says "rape" it's exaggerated to the point of being wrong). Noone's going to disagree with that though itself. People are disagreeing with being called rapists the same way people disagreed with being called bigots a while ago.
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On August 03 2013 06:30 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 06:29 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 03 2013 06:22 packrat386 wrote:On August 03 2013 06:19 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:17 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:12 fugs wrote:On August 03 2013 06:08 KwarK wrote:On August 03 2013 06:06 ComaDose wrote:On August 03 2013 06:04 Shiori wrote:
There hasn't been a single good reason as to why one shouldn't just say that they're trans. The last time they did they got beat up. And we're back to the "my life is hard so I should be able to disregard informed consent" argument. It doesn't work that way. Two wrongs don't make a right. This is a universal standard. You know what, he's right. Getting the living shit kicked out of you shouldn't deter you from going through the same experience again and again and again. It's as Freud predicted. "Because it's a binary choice. Get beat up or disregard consent. What do you want me to do, not get laid? Amirite?" I see you've never been beaten up over sex. *wink* there is a third option. Don't tell them and don't have sex. That option might suck, but KwarK is trying to say that sometimes you have to pass up sex if you want to do the right thing. IMO, a one-night-stand is a no-attachment experience which has absolutely no requirement for any sort of personal knowledge. If you consent before, consent during, and walk away with nothing except a fun memory, then all is fair. An actual relationship, though, should have at least mutual trust. You don't get to decide whether or not they feel strongly about the relationship, however brief. Perhaps it doesn;t mean much to you, but that doesn't mean it doesn't mean much to them.
Well, if you want something specific out of a one-night-stand, it's on you to look for it. Different people want different things, and there is plenty of opportunity before any kind of intimacy for either party say "this isn't what I'm looking for".
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EPT
