On August 03 2013 06:04 Shiori wrote: There hasn't been a single good reason as to why one shouldn't just say that they're trans.
The last time they did they got beat up.
And we're back to the "my life is hard so I should be able to disregard informed consent" argument.
It doesn't work that way. Two wrongs don't make a right. This is a universal standard.
You know what, he's right. Getting the living shit kicked out of you shouldn't deter you from going through the same experience again and again and again. It's as Freud predicted.
On August 03 2013 05:48 Iyerbeth wrote: I would stronlgy advise all trans people to stop reading and posting in this thread. There's no reason to discuss this now.
When a fucking mod is calling people rapists and making personal attacks, twisting the words of others, misrepresenting banned people's opinions and supporting attacks on others fuck that.
It's been legitimately argued in here that "well what am I supposed to do, telling people about my status and letting them have informed consent inconveniences me, not take advantage of their ignorance?". As if that's a difficult moral question for most of the world. "God my dating life would be hard if I stopped being so rapey, I'm so unfortunate, don't hold me to the same moral standard". It's outrageous.
What the fuck. Seriously, you're a moderator. What the fuck.
I come into this thread, which was already a clusterfuck of ignorance, only to discover that withholding any information that might possibly be a turnoff constitutes rape.
I don't want to be an adulterer, I find out my one-night-stand was married. Apparently that's rape.
My girlfriend had a slight cold, I wouldn't have been intimate with her if I knew she was sick. Apparently that's rape.
I date a girl, we have sex. Turns out she had a kid, I don't like that. Apparently that's rape.
Seriously. What. The. Fuck.
Obviously there's a sliding scale. If you could not reasonably expect that your undisclosed thing would be an issue regarding their consent then sure, you didn't know. Likewise if you can reasonably assume they know, or that they considered the possibility and didn't care, then sure. But it's being argued by people here that someone must ask about every possible dealbreaker, no matter how unlikely, and likewise that someone doesn't have to disclose anything unless asked, no matter how likely a dealbreaker. And that's where it gets really rapey.
I think it's also reasonable to presume that my potential partner is not transphobic and/or racist. A very, very statistically significant portion of the population would not sleep with a transphobic or racist person. Therefore, it's only fair to say that you are also a rapist if you didn't disclose considering that you could have reasonably assumed that it might be a problem.
I mean, I agree, if you knowingly sleep with someone that doesn't want to sleep with trans people, sure, thet's very rapey. But if you don't have any reason to believe one way or the other, then it's equally as rapey as the person who was transphobic not informing the other. In which case they raped each other. Not sure if that was the desired conclusion, but there it is.
The reasonable argument comes down to numbers. The cis assumption is reasonable due to 99.99% of people being cis. The trans population is significantly higher, a large number of posters in this very topic have expressed a desire not to have sex with a trans woman. I would not expect disclosure if you could reasonably assume they didn't care, such as someone met at a LGBT rally or whatever, but with the general population in this day and age, it's a big enough group that you should act accordingly.
The numbers argument works from over here, too. I bet you could find millions of people that would not consent to sleeping with a known racist/transphobe. It's a big enough percentage of people that it's totally reasonable to expect disclosure. It's a big enough group that you should act accordingly.
You're accusing us of rape what'd you expect, a high five?
Well stop raping people and I won't call you a rapist. Jesus. It's not hard. A bunch of trans people in here all agree that they tell people for exactly the described reasons.
I haven't raped anyone. If I recall correctly they're the ones that put their dick inside of me.
Because only women can be raped. Nice...
You should return your moral compass to the store you got it from, you sicken me.
Oh I'd hate to sicken yet another individual, it's not like the world is full of you people. Stop fucking around and grow up. You definitely don't sound tolerant of trans people since you keep yelling rape. Maybe you should take a look at your own damned moral compass, it's not our job to cater to you. It's not our responsibility to guide your penis around the bar.
"Its not my job to keep her legs shut, she never said no"
Oh how easy it is for a man to link rape and 'trickery', as if you've ever been raped. It's fucking offensive as hell hearing this argument. For starters none of you fucks know what it's like to be held down and raped so don't fucking act like you've been there. And second take a gander and the obvious double standards you're blowing out your ass.
Oh she's a virgin, oh she's a blonde, oh she's nerdy, oh she's got brown eyes, oh she's got long hair. Wanna know something? She's lying about every single fucking one of those things, she's not a virgin, her natural hair color is red, she hasn't picked up a video card in her life, she's wearing contact lenses, and she has hair extensions in. Yet that's not a fucking problem for you is it?
But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot.
Nope, I always, always get angry about issues of consent on tl and I have zero problems with trans people who don't go "consent is inconvenient so I choose for them".
So not only are you loose about your use of "rape", but also the use of "consent". Brilliant.
Consent built on false assumptions that one party knows is false is not consent by the moral standard of pretty much anyone but a sociopath.
And now I ask this to you: How many of your possible turnoffs do you tell your possible one-night-stands?
If your answer is anything except "all of them", apparently you are a sociopath by your own definition. Or knowingly immoral.
On August 03 2013 05:32 RaspberrySC2 wrote: [quote]
No. Systemic oppression. Reinforced by bigotry and prejudice wearing the mask of moral standard.
Not raping = oppression. Must suck to be a minority and not get given a free moral card to do whatever the fuck you want. Fuck off. I have nothing against trans people. I just really like consent.
You're accusing us of rape what'd you expect, a high five?
Well stop raping people and I won't call you a rapist. Jesus. It's not hard. A bunch of trans people in here all agree that they tell people for exactly the described reasons.
I haven't raped anyone. If I recall correctly they're the ones that put their dick inside of me.
Because only women can be raped. Nice...
You should return your moral compass to the store you got it from, you sicken me.
Oh I'd hate to sicken yet another individual, it's not like the world is full of you people. Stop fucking around and grow up. You definitely don't sound tolerant of trans people since you keep yelling rape. Maybe you should take a look at your own damned moral compass, it's not our job to cater to you. It's not our responsibility to guide your penis around the bar.
"Its not my job to keep her legs shut, she never said no"
Oh how easy it is for a man to link rape and 'trickery', as if you've ever been raped. It's fucking offensive as hell hearing this argument. For starters none of you fucks know what it's like to be held down and raped so don't fucking act like you've been there. And second take a gander and the obvious double standards you're blowing out your ass.
Oh she's a virgin, oh she's a blonde, oh she's nerdy, oh she's got brown eyes, oh she's got long hair. Wanna know something? She's lying about every single fucking one of those things, she's not a virgin, her natural hair color is red, she hasn't picked up a video card in her life, she's wearing contact lenses, and she has hair extensions in. Yet that's not a fucking problem for you is it?
But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot.
I stopped following this thread when Klondike wouldn't let go of the last line. I'm glad I haven't wasted my time. Just because I don't want to sleep with a trams does not make me a transphobe nor a bigot.
You have every right to not sleep with a trans person, just don't accuse us of fucking rape because you can't ask first before you stick your dick in.
On August 03 2013 05:34 KwarK wrote: [quote] Not raping = oppression. Must suck to be a minority and not get given a free moral card to do whatever the fuck you want. Fuck off. I have nothing against trans people. I just really like consent.
You're accusing us of rape what'd you expect, a high five?
Well stop raping people and I won't call you a rapist. Jesus. It's not hard. A bunch of trans people in here all agree that they tell people for exactly the described reasons.
I haven't raped anyone. If I recall correctly they're the ones that put their dick inside of me.
Because only women can be raped. Nice...
You should return your moral compass to the store you got it from, you sicken me.
Oh I'd hate to sicken yet another individual, it's not like the world is full of you people. Stop fucking around and grow up. You definitely don't sound tolerant of trans people since you keep yelling rape. Maybe you should take a look at your own damned moral compass, it's not our job to cater to you. It's not our responsibility to guide your penis around the bar.
"Its not my job to keep her legs shut, she never said no"
Oh how easy it is for a man to link rape and 'trickery', as if you've ever been raped. It's fucking offensive as hell hearing this argument. For starters none of you fucks know what it's like to be held down and raped so don't fucking act like you've been there. And second take a gander and the obvious double standards you're blowing out your ass.
Oh she's a virgin, oh she's a blonde, oh she's nerdy, oh she's got brown eyes, oh she's got long hair. Wanna know something? She's lying about every single fucking one of those things, she's not a virgin, her natural hair color is red, she hasn't picked up a video card in her life, she's wearing contact lenses, and she has hair extensions in. Yet that's not a fucking problem for you is it?
But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot.
Nope, I always, always get angry about issues of consent on tl and I have zero problems with trans people who don't go "consent is inconvenient so I choose for them".
And I have zero issue with real men. You know, the ones with character. It's the spineless cowards hiding behind authority I have a problem with. This is a fun game we should keep playing it.
I hide behind nothing. If I wanted to hide behind authority I'd ban people for disagreeing. I post here as a general forum poster and have no intention of banning you, even though you're trying to turn this into a bullying narrative. I am no coward, I am a pro sex feminist who thinks consent is really important and am disgusted by the way a number of people in this topic have dismissed it for a variety of reasons.
On August 03 2013 05:37 KwarK wrote: [quote] Well stop raping people and I won't call you a rapist. Jesus. It's not hard. A bunch of trans people in here all agree that they tell people for exactly the described reasons.
I haven't raped anyone. If I recall correctly they're the ones that put their dick inside of me.
Because only women can be raped. Nice...
You should return your moral compass to the store you got it from, you sicken me.
Oh I'd hate to sicken yet another individual, it's not like the world is full of you people. Stop fucking around and grow up. You definitely don't sound tolerant of trans people since you keep yelling rape. Maybe you should take a look at your own damned moral compass, it's not our job to cater to you. It's not our responsibility to guide your penis around the bar.
"Its not my job to keep her legs shut, she never said no"
Oh how easy it is for a man to link rape and 'trickery', as if you've ever been raped. It's fucking offensive as hell hearing this argument. For starters none of you fucks know what it's like to be held down and raped so don't fucking act like you've been there. And second take a gander and the obvious double standards you're blowing out your ass.
Oh she's a virgin, oh she's a blonde, oh she's nerdy, oh she's got brown eyes, oh she's got long hair. Wanna know something? She's lying about every single fucking one of those things, she's not a virgin, her natural hair color is red, she hasn't picked up a video card in her life, she's wearing contact lenses, and she has hair extensions in. Yet that's not a fucking problem for you is it?
But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot.
I wasn't trying to advance the argument that its rape to withhold that information, I was merely commenting that the idea that it couldn't possibly be rape because "they're the ones that put their dick inside of me" is kind of sexist. You're right that I haven't been raped, but not all instances of it are violent. The question is what extent is someone allowed to go to in order to get consent from a sexual partner?
Do you go out of your way to list the reasons why your one-night-stands should not fuck you?
Didn't think so.
well I'm a virgin so its not come up yet :/
Anyway, that wasn't the issue at hand when I made that comment. fugs was basically insinuating that it can only be rape if you're the person doing the penetrating. Its not. That's not really the best assumption to have...
No, fugs was speaking from her own personal viewpoint...so naturally her perspective is from a female with male partners.
I understand her viewpoint. I'm trying to say that "I was the one being penetrated" does not prove that it wasn't rape, and that was exactly the evidence that she was offering.
On August 03 2013 06:10 xM(Z wrote: i googled "How do you make a vagina into a penis?" and i got "You can't. Only a penis into a vagina." that's pretty one sided/discriminatory i'd say.
"Genital reassignment - Genital reconstructive procedures (GRT) use either the clitoris, which is enlarged by androgenic hormones (Metoidioplasty), or rely on free tissue grafts from the arm, the thigh or belly and an erectile prosthetic (Phalloplasty). In either case, the urethra can be rerouted through the phallus to allow urination through the reconstructed penis. The labia majora (see vulva) are united to form a scrotum, where prosthetic testicles can be inserted."
On August 03 2013 05:37 KwarK wrote: [quote] Well stop raping people and I won't call you a rapist. Jesus. It's not hard. A bunch of trans people in here all agree that they tell people for exactly the described reasons.
I haven't raped anyone. If I recall correctly they're the ones that put their dick inside of me.
Because only women can be raped. Nice...
You should return your moral compass to the store you got it from, you sicken me.
Oh I'd hate to sicken yet another individual, it's not like the world is full of you people. Stop fucking around and grow up. You definitely don't sound tolerant of trans people since you keep yelling rape. Maybe you should take a look at your own damned moral compass, it's not our job to cater to you. It's not our responsibility to guide your penis around the bar.
"Its not my job to keep her legs shut, she never said no"
Oh how easy it is for a man to link rape and 'trickery', as if you've ever been raped. It's fucking offensive as hell hearing this argument. For starters none of you fucks know what it's like to be held down and raped so don't fucking act like you've been there. And second take a gander and the obvious double standards you're blowing out your ass.
Oh she's a virgin, oh she's a blonde, oh she's nerdy, oh she's got brown eyes, oh she's got long hair. Wanna know something? She's lying about every single fucking one of those things, she's not a virgin, her natural hair color is red, she hasn't picked up a video card in her life, she's wearing contact lenses, and she has hair extensions in. Yet that's not a fucking problem for you is it?
But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot.
Nope, I always, always get angry about issues of consent on tl and I have zero problems with trans people who don't go "consent is inconvenient so I choose for them".
So not only are you loose about your use of "rape", but also the use of "consent". Brilliant.
Consent built on false assumptions that one party knows is false is not consent by the moral standard of pretty much anyone but a sociopath.
And now I ask this to you: How many of your possible turnoffs do you tell your possible one-night-stands?
If your answer is anything except "all of them", apparently you are a sociopath by your own definition. Or knowingly immoral.
I don't do one night stands. I like to know the people I fuck. But no, I apply a standard of reasonableness which I have explained over and over. If it is reasonable to assume they know, or considered it and don't care, then you're in the clear. For example if you're a member of a significant minority (0.01% doesn't count). Likewise if it is reasonable to assume they do not have that hangup, either indicated by the context or if it is just an unusual hangup, then you're in the clear.
I haven't raped anyone. If I recall correctly they're the ones that put their dick inside of me.
Because only women can be raped. Nice...
You should return your moral compass to the store you got it from, you sicken me.
Oh I'd hate to sicken yet another individual, it's not like the world is full of you people. Stop fucking around and grow up. You definitely don't sound tolerant of trans people since you keep yelling rape. Maybe you should take a look at your own damned moral compass, it's not our job to cater to you. It's not our responsibility to guide your penis around the bar.
"Its not my job to keep her legs shut, she never said no"
Oh how easy it is for a man to link rape and 'trickery', as if you've ever been raped. It's fucking offensive as hell hearing this argument. For starters none of you fucks know what it's like to be held down and raped so don't fucking act like you've been there. And second take a gander and the obvious double standards you're blowing out your ass.
Oh she's a virgin, oh she's a blonde, oh she's nerdy, oh she's got brown eyes, oh she's got long hair. Wanna know something? She's lying about every single fucking one of those things, she's not a virgin, her natural hair color is red, she hasn't picked up a video card in her life, she's wearing contact lenses, and she has hair extensions in. Yet that's not a fucking problem for you is it?
But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot.
I wasn't trying to advance the argument that its rape to withhold that information, I was merely commenting that the idea that it couldn't possibly be rape because "they're the ones that put their dick inside of me" is kind of sexist. You're right that I haven't been raped, but not all instances of it are violent. The question is what extent is someone allowed to go to in order to get consent from a sexual partner?
Do you go out of your way to list the reasons why your one-night-stands should not fuck you?
Didn't think so.
well I'm a virgin so its not come up yet :/
Anyway, that wasn't the issue at hand when I made that comment. fugs was basically insinuating that it can only be rape if you're the person doing the penetrating. Its not. That's not really the best assumption to have...
No, fugs was speaking from her own personal viewpoint...so naturally her perspective is from a female with male partners.
I understand her viewpoint. I'm trying to say that "I was the one being penetrated" does not prove that it wasn't rape, and that was exactly the evidence that she was offering.
Rape is strictly defined by the partner being unwilling during the act. Anything else is just deception and being an asshole.
On August 03 2013 06:04 Shiori wrote: There hasn't been a single good reason as to why one shouldn't just say that they're trans.
The last time they did they got beat up.
And we're back to the "my life is hard so I should be able to disregard informed consent" argument.
It doesn't work that way. Two wrongs don't make a right. This is a universal standard.
You know what, he's right. Getting the living shit kicked out of you shouldn't deter you from going through the same experience again and again and again. It's as Freud predicted.
"Because it's a binary choice. Get beat up or disregard consent. What do you want me to do, not get laid? Amirite?"
I haven't raped anyone. If I recall correctly they're the ones that put their dick inside of me.
Because only women can be raped. Nice...
You should return your moral compass to the store you got it from, you sicken me.
Oh I'd hate to sicken yet another individual, it's not like the world is full of you people. Stop fucking around and grow up. You definitely don't sound tolerant of trans people since you keep yelling rape. Maybe you should take a look at your own damned moral compass, it's not our job to cater to you. It's not our responsibility to guide your penis around the bar.
"Its not my job to keep her legs shut, she never said no"
Oh how easy it is for a man to link rape and 'trickery', as if you've ever been raped. It's fucking offensive as hell hearing this argument. For starters none of you fucks know what it's like to be held down and raped so don't fucking act like you've been there. And second take a gander and the obvious double standards you're blowing out your ass.
Oh she's a virgin, oh she's a blonde, oh she's nerdy, oh she's got brown eyes, oh she's got long hair. Wanna know something? She's lying about every single fucking one of those things, she's not a virgin, her natural hair color is red, she hasn't picked up a video card in her life, she's wearing contact lenses, and she has hair extensions in. Yet that's not a fucking problem for you is it?
But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot.
Nope, I always, always get angry about issues of consent on tl and I have zero problems with trans people who don't go "consent is inconvenient so I choose for them".
So not only are you loose about your use of "rape", but also the use of "consent". Brilliant.
Consent built on false assumptions that one party knows is false is not consent by the moral standard of pretty much anyone but a sociopath.
And now I ask this to you: How many of your possible turnoffs do you tell your possible one-night-stands?
If your answer is anything except "all of them", apparently you are a sociopath by your own definition. Or knowingly immoral.
I don't do one night stands. I like to know the people I fuck. But no, I apply a standard of reasonableness which I have explained over and over. If it is reasonable to assume they know, or considered it and don't care, then you're in the clear. For example if you're a member of a significant minority (0.01% doesn't count). Likewise if it is reasonable to assume they do not have that hangup, either indicated by the context or if it is just an unusual hangup, then you're in the clear.
So basically "the only things that make it rape are the things I specifically care about".
I haven't raped anyone. If I recall correctly they're the ones that put their dick inside of me.
Because only women can be raped. Nice...
You should return your moral compass to the store you got it from, you sicken me.
Oh I'd hate to sicken yet another individual, it's not like the world is full of you people. Stop fucking around and grow up. You definitely don't sound tolerant of trans people since you keep yelling rape. Maybe you should take a look at your own damned moral compass, it's not our job to cater to you. It's not our responsibility to guide your penis around the bar.
"Its not my job to keep her legs shut, she never said no"
Oh how easy it is for a man to link rape and 'trickery', as if you've ever been raped. It's fucking offensive as hell hearing this argument. For starters none of you fucks know what it's like to be held down and raped so don't fucking act like you've been there. And second take a gander and the obvious double standards you're blowing out your ass.
Oh she's a virgin, oh she's a blonde, oh she's nerdy, oh she's got brown eyes, oh she's got long hair. Wanna know something? She's lying about every single fucking one of those things, she's not a virgin, her natural hair color is red, she hasn't picked up a video card in her life, she's wearing contact lenses, and she has hair extensions in. Yet that's not a fucking problem for you is it?
But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot.
Nope, I always, always get angry about issues of consent on tl and I have zero problems with trans people who don't go "consent is inconvenient so I choose for them".
So not only are you loose about your use of "rape", but also the use of "consent". Brilliant.
Consent built on false assumptions that one party knows is false is not consent by the moral standard of pretty much anyone but a sociopath.
And now I ask this to you: How many of your possible turnoffs do you tell your possible one-night-stands?
If your answer is anything except "all of them", apparently you are a sociopath by your own definition. Or knowingly immoral.
I don't do one night stands. I like to know the people I fuck. But no, I apply a standard of reasonableness which I have explained over and over. If it is reasonable to assume they know, or considered it and don't care, then you're in the clear. For example if you're a member of a significant minority (0.01% doesn't count). Likewise if it is reasonable to assume they do not have that hangup, either indicated by the context or if it is just an unusual hangup, then you're in the clear.
can you think of anything other than being a trans person that qualifies? (excluding stds and other things that can cause direct harm, also excluding the twin example)
On August 03 2013 05:44 KwarK wrote: [quote] Because only women can be raped. Nice...
You should return your moral compass to the store you got it from, you sicken me.
Oh I'd hate to sicken yet another individual, it's not like the world is full of you people. Stop fucking around and grow up. You definitely don't sound tolerant of trans people since you keep yelling rape. Maybe you should take a look at your own damned moral compass, it's not our job to cater to you. It's not our responsibility to guide your penis around the bar.
"Its not my job to keep her legs shut, she never said no"
Oh how easy it is for a man to link rape and 'trickery', as if you've ever been raped. It's fucking offensive as hell hearing this argument. For starters none of you fucks know what it's like to be held down and raped so don't fucking act like you've been there. And second take a gander and the obvious double standards you're blowing out your ass.
Oh she's a virgin, oh she's a blonde, oh she's nerdy, oh she's got brown eyes, oh she's got long hair. Wanna know something? She's lying about every single fucking one of those things, she's not a virgin, her natural hair color is red, she hasn't picked up a video card in her life, she's wearing contact lenses, and she has hair extensions in. Yet that's not a fucking problem for you is it?
But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot.
I wasn't trying to advance the argument that its rape to withhold that information, I was merely commenting that the idea that it couldn't possibly be rape because "they're the ones that put their dick inside of me" is kind of sexist. You're right that I haven't been raped, but not all instances of it are violent. The question is what extent is someone allowed to go to in order to get consent from a sexual partner?
Do you go out of your way to list the reasons why your one-night-stands should not fuck you?
Didn't think so.
well I'm a virgin so its not come up yet :/
Anyway, that wasn't the issue at hand when I made that comment. fugs was basically insinuating that it can only be rape if you're the person doing the penetrating. Its not. That's not really the best assumption to have...
No, fugs was speaking from her own personal viewpoint...so naturally her perspective is from a female with male partners.
I understand her viewpoint. I'm trying to say that "I was the one being penetrated" does not prove that it wasn't rape, and that was exactly the evidence that she was offering.
Rape is strictly defined by the partner being unwilling during the act. Anything else is just deception and being an asshole.
I wasn't calling anything rape. I was just saying that the partner being penetrated can be the one perpetrating rape.
I haven't raped anyone. If I recall correctly they're the ones that put their dick inside of me.
Because only women can be raped. Nice...
You should return your moral compass to the store you got it from, you sicken me.
Oh I'd hate to sicken yet another individual, it's not like the world is full of you people. Stop fucking around and grow up. You definitely don't sound tolerant of trans people since you keep yelling rape. Maybe you should take a look at your own damned moral compass, it's not our job to cater to you. It's not our responsibility to guide your penis around the bar.
"Its not my job to keep her legs shut, she never said no"
Oh how easy it is for a man to link rape and 'trickery', as if you've ever been raped. It's fucking offensive as hell hearing this argument. For starters none of you fucks know what it's like to be held down and raped so don't fucking act like you've been there. And second take a gander and the obvious double standards you're blowing out your ass.
Oh she's a virgin, oh she's a blonde, oh she's nerdy, oh she's got brown eyes, oh she's got long hair. Wanna know something? She's lying about every single fucking one of those things, she's not a virgin, her natural hair color is red, she hasn't picked up a video card in her life, she's wearing contact lenses, and she has hair extensions in. Yet that's not a fucking problem for you is it?
But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot.
Nope, I always, always get angry about issues of consent on tl and I have zero problems with trans people who don't go "consent is inconvenient so I choose for them".
So not only are you loose about your use of "rape", but also the use of "consent". Brilliant.
Consent built on false assumptions that one party knows is false is not consent by the moral standard of pretty much anyone but a sociopath.
And now I ask this to you: How many of your possible turnoffs do you tell your possible one-night-stands?
If your answer is anything except "all of them", apparently you are a sociopath by your own definition. Or knowingly immoral.
I don't do one night stands. I like to know the people I fuck. But no, I apply a standard of reasonableness which I have explained over and over. If it is reasonable to assume they know, or considered it and don't care, then you're in the clear. For example if you're a member of a significant minority (0.01% doesn't count). Likewise if it is reasonable to assume they do not have that hangup, either indicated by the context or if it is just an unusual hangup, then you're in the clear.
Wouldn't want to make it harder on the majority after all, they've already got it so tough.
I haven't raped anyone. If I recall correctly they're the ones that put their dick inside of me.
Because only women can be raped. Nice...
You should return your moral compass to the store you got it from, you sicken me.
Oh I'd hate to sicken yet another individual, it's not like the world is full of you people. Stop fucking around and grow up. You definitely don't sound tolerant of trans people since you keep yelling rape. Maybe you should take a look at your own damned moral compass, it's not our job to cater to you. It's not our responsibility to guide your penis around the bar.
"Its not my job to keep her legs shut, she never said no"
Oh how easy it is for a man to link rape and 'trickery', as if you've ever been raped. It's fucking offensive as hell hearing this argument. For starters none of you fucks know what it's like to be held down and raped so don't fucking act like you've been there. And second take a gander and the obvious double standards you're blowing out your ass.
Oh she's a virgin, oh she's a blonde, oh she's nerdy, oh she's got brown eyes, oh she's got long hair. Wanna know something? She's lying about every single fucking one of those things, she's not a virgin, her natural hair color is red, she hasn't picked up a video card in her life, she's wearing contact lenses, and she has hair extensions in. Yet that's not a fucking problem for you is it?
But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot.
Nope, I always, always get angry about issues of consent on tl and I have zero problems with trans people who don't go "consent is inconvenient so I choose for them".
So not only are you loose about your use of "rape", but also the use of "consent". Brilliant.
Consent built on false assumptions that one party knows is false is not consent by the moral standard of pretty much anyone but a sociopath.
And now I ask this to you: How many of your possible turnoffs do you tell your possible one-night-stands?
If your answer is anything except "all of them", apparently you are a sociopath by your own definition. Or knowingly immoral.
I don't do one night stands. I like to know the people I fuck. But no, I apply a standard of reasonableness which I have explained over and over. If it is reasonable to assume they know, or considered it and don't care, then you're in the clear. For example if you're a member of a significant minority (0.01% doesn't count). Likewise if it is reasonable to assume they do not have that hangup, either indicated by the context or if it is just an unusual hangup, then you're in the clear.
So they don't need to out themselves, they just need to confirm that it wouldn't be a problem or have a reasonable belief of that, correct?
On August 03 2013 05:44 KwarK wrote: [quote] Because only women can be raped. Nice...
You should return your moral compass to the store you got it from, you sicken me.
Oh I'd hate to sicken yet another individual, it's not like the world is full of you people. Stop fucking around and grow up. You definitely don't sound tolerant of trans people since you keep yelling rape. Maybe you should take a look at your own damned moral compass, it's not our job to cater to you. It's not our responsibility to guide your penis around the bar.
"Its not my job to keep her legs shut, she never said no"
Oh how easy it is for a man to link rape and 'trickery', as if you've ever been raped. It's fucking offensive as hell hearing this argument. For starters none of you fucks know what it's like to be held down and raped so don't fucking act like you've been there. And second take a gander and the obvious double standards you're blowing out your ass.
Oh she's a virgin, oh she's a blonde, oh she's nerdy, oh she's got brown eyes, oh she's got long hair. Wanna know something? She's lying about every single fucking one of those things, she's not a virgin, her natural hair color is red, she hasn't picked up a video card in her life, she's wearing contact lenses, and she has hair extensions in. Yet that's not a fucking problem for you is it?
But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot.
I wasn't trying to advance the argument that its rape to withhold that information, I was merely commenting that the idea that it couldn't possibly be rape because "they're the ones that put their dick inside of me" is kind of sexist. You're right that I haven't been raped, but not all instances of it are violent. The question is what extent is someone allowed to go to in order to get consent from a sexual partner?
Do you go out of your way to list the reasons why your one-night-stands should not fuck you?
Didn't think so.
well I'm a virgin so its not come up yet :/
Anyway, that wasn't the issue at hand when I made that comment. fugs was basically insinuating that it can only be rape if you're the person doing the penetrating. Its not. That's not really the best assumption to have...
No, fugs was speaking from her own personal viewpoint...so naturally her perspective is from a female with male partners.
I understand her viewpoint. I'm trying to say that "I was the one being penetrated" does not prove that it wasn't rape, and that was exactly the evidence that she was offering.
Rape is strictly defined by the partner being unwilling during the act. Anything else is just deception and being an asshole.
Legally sure. The moral standard I'm explaining would be impossible to turn into a law because it's all grey areas about what is reasonable to assume and what isn't. But it doesn't mean that there is no right and wrong there.
I haven't raped anyone. If I recall correctly they're the ones that put their dick inside of me.
Because only women can be raped. Nice...
You should return your moral compass to the store you got it from, you sicken me.
Oh I'd hate to sicken yet another individual, it's not like the world is full of you people. Stop fucking around and grow up. You definitely don't sound tolerant of trans people since you keep yelling rape. Maybe you should take a look at your own damned moral compass, it's not our job to cater to you. It's not our responsibility to guide your penis around the bar.
"Its not my job to keep her legs shut, she never said no"
Oh how easy it is for a man to link rape and 'trickery', as if you've ever been raped. It's fucking offensive as hell hearing this argument. For starters none of you fucks know what it's like to be held down and raped so don't fucking act like you've been there. And second take a gander and the obvious double standards you're blowing out your ass.
Oh she's a virgin, oh she's a blonde, oh she's nerdy, oh she's got brown eyes, oh she's got long hair. Wanna know something? She's lying about every single fucking one of those things, she's not a virgin, her natural hair color is red, she hasn't picked up a video card in her life, she's wearing contact lenses, and she has hair extensions in. Yet that's not a fucking problem for you is it?
But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot.
Nope, I always, always get angry about issues of consent on tl and I have zero problems with trans people who don't go "consent is inconvenient so I choose for them".
So not only are you loose about your use of "rape", but also the use of "consent". Brilliant.
Consent built on false assumptions that one party knows is false is not consent by the moral standard of pretty much anyone but a sociopath.
And now I ask this to you: How many of your possible turnoffs do you tell your possible one-night-stands?
If your answer is anything except "all of them", apparently you are a sociopath by your own definition. Or knowingly immoral.
I don't do one night stands. I like to know the people I fuck. But no, I apply a standard of reasonableness which I have explained over and over. If it is reasonable to assume they know, or considered it and don't care, then you're in the clear. For example if you're a member of a significant minority (0.01% doesn't count). Likewise if it is reasonable to assume they do not have that hangup, either indicated by the context or if it is just an unusual hangup, then you're in the clear.
On August 03 2013 06:04 Shiori wrote: There hasn't been a single good reason as to why one shouldn't just say that they're trans.
The last time they did they got beat up.
And we're back to the "my life is hard so I should be able to disregard informed consent" argument.
It doesn't work that way. Two wrongs don't make a right. This is a universal standard.
You know what, he's right. Getting the living shit kicked out of you shouldn't deter you from going through the same experience again and again and again. It's as Freud predicted.
"Because it's a binary choice. Get beat up or disregard consent. What do you want me to do, not get laid? Amirite?"
I see you've never been beaten up over sex. *wink*
On August 03 2013 05:44 KwarK wrote: [quote] Because only women can be raped. Nice...
You should return your moral compass to the store you got it from, you sicken me.
Oh I'd hate to sicken yet another individual, it's not like the world is full of you people. Stop fucking around and grow up. You definitely don't sound tolerant of trans people since you keep yelling rape. Maybe you should take a look at your own damned moral compass, it's not our job to cater to you. It's not our responsibility to guide your penis around the bar.
"Its not my job to keep her legs shut, she never said no"
Oh how easy it is for a man to link rape and 'trickery', as if you've ever been raped. It's fucking offensive as hell hearing this argument. For starters none of you fucks know what it's like to be held down and raped so don't fucking act like you've been there. And second take a gander and the obvious double standards you're blowing out your ass.
Oh she's a virgin, oh she's a blonde, oh she's nerdy, oh she's got brown eyes, oh she's got long hair. Wanna know something? She's lying about every single fucking one of those things, she's not a virgin, her natural hair color is red, she hasn't picked up a video card in her life, she's wearing contact lenses, and she has hair extensions in. Yet that's not a fucking problem for you is it?
But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot.
Nope, I always, always get angry about issues of consent on tl and I have zero problems with trans people who don't go "consent is inconvenient so I choose for them".
So not only are you loose about your use of "rape", but also the use of "consent". Brilliant.
Consent built on false assumptions that one party knows is false is not consent by the moral standard of pretty much anyone but a sociopath.
And now I ask this to you: How many of your possible turnoffs do you tell your possible one-night-stands?
If your answer is anything except "all of them", apparently you are a sociopath by your own definition. Or knowingly immoral.
I don't do one night stands. I like to know the people I fuck. But no, I apply a standard of reasonableness which I have explained over and over. If it is reasonable to assume they know, or considered it and don't care, then you're in the clear. For example if you're a member of a significant minority (0.01% doesn't count). Likewise if it is reasonable to assume they do not have that hangup, either indicated by the context or if it is just an unusual hangup, then you're in the clear.
So they don't need to out themselves, they just need to confirm that it wouldn't be a problem or have a reasonable belief of that, correct?
Pretty much. If I was married and trying to hook up with someone I might reasonably think their consent was built on me being single (because for a lot of people that is a dealbreaker) so I'd tell them. However if I was married and at a swingers bar I would have reason to assume that they didn't mind about their partners being married so I wouldn't care about it.
Oh I'd hate to sicken yet another individual, it's not like the world is full of you people. Stop fucking around and grow up. You definitely don't sound tolerant of trans people since you keep yelling rape. Maybe you should take a look at your own damned moral compass, it's not our job to cater to you. It's not our responsibility to guide your penis around the bar.
"Its not my job to keep her legs shut, she never said no"
Oh how easy it is for a man to link rape and 'trickery', as if you've ever been raped. It's fucking offensive as hell hearing this argument. For starters none of you fucks know what it's like to be held down and raped so don't fucking act like you've been there. And second take a gander and the obvious double standards you're blowing out your ass.
Oh she's a virgin, oh she's a blonde, oh she's nerdy, oh she's got brown eyes, oh she's got long hair. Wanna know something? She's lying about every single fucking one of those things, she's not a virgin, her natural hair color is red, she hasn't picked up a video card in her life, she's wearing contact lenses, and she has hair extensions in. Yet that's not a fucking problem for you is it?
But when she's a trans person, oh holy shit now it's rape by deceit! Fuck you people, it's not about withholding information, it's about her being trans and you being a bigot.
I wasn't trying to advance the argument that its rape to withhold that information, I was merely commenting that the idea that it couldn't possibly be rape because "they're the ones that put their dick inside of me" is kind of sexist. You're right that I haven't been raped, but not all instances of it are violent. The question is what extent is someone allowed to go to in order to get consent from a sexual partner?
Do you go out of your way to list the reasons why your one-night-stands should not fuck you?
Didn't think so.
well I'm a virgin so its not come up yet :/
Anyway, that wasn't the issue at hand when I made that comment. fugs was basically insinuating that it can only be rape if you're the person doing the penetrating. Its not. That's not really the best assumption to have...
No, fugs was speaking from her own personal viewpoint...so naturally her perspective is from a female with male partners.
I understand her viewpoint. I'm trying to say that "I was the one being penetrated" does not prove that it wasn't rape, and that was exactly the evidence that she was offering.
Rape is strictly defined by the partner being unwilling during the act. Anything else is just deception and being an asshole.
Legally sure. The moral standard I'm explaining would be impossible to turn into a law because it's all grey areas about what is reasonable to assume and what isn't. But it doesn't mean that there is no right and wrong there.
Find a new word. Your using that one wrong and its offending people. There are a ton of word in the english language that mean the same thing, pick one or two.
EPT
