(Reuters) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has died after a two-year battle with cancer, ending the socialist leader's 14-year rule of the South American country, Vice President Nicolas Maduro said in a televised speech.
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has died after a two-year battle with cancer, ending the socialist leader's 14-year rule of the South American country, Vice President Nicolas Maduro said in a televised speech.
Maduro, surrounded by other government officials, announced the death in a national television broadcast on Tuesday. He said Chavez died at 4:25 p.m. local time.
Reaction from around the world to Chavez's death was swift.
UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon said he is "conveying condolence" to the Venezuelan president's "family and the people of Venezuela," according to Al Jazeera's James Bays, who was reporting from the UN in New York.
Russia's ambassador to the UN Vitaly Churkin also issued as statement describing Chavez's death as a "tragedy".
"He was a great politician for his country and for the world as a whole," Churkin said.
During more than 14 years in office, Chavez routinely challenged the status quo at home and internationally. He polarized Venezuelans with his confrontational and domineering style, yet was also a masterful communicator and strategist who tapped into Venezuelan nationalism to win broad support, particularly among the poor.
Chavez repeatedly proved himself a political survivor. As an army paratroop commander, he led a failed coup in 1992, then was pardoned and elected president in 1998. He survived a coup against his own presidency in 2002 and won re-election two more times.
The burly president electrified crowds with his booming voice, often wearing the bright red of his United Socialist Party of Venezuela or the fatigues and red beret of his army days. Before his struggle with cancer, he appeared on television almost daily, talking for hours at a time and often breaking into song of philosophical discourse.
Chavez used his country's vast oil wealth to launch social programs that include state-run food markets, new public housing, free health clinics and education programs. Poverty declined during Chavez's presidency amid a historic boom in oil earnings, but critics said he failed to use the windfall of hundreds of billions of dollars to develop the country's economy.
Inflation soared and the homicide rate rose to among the highest in the world.
The populist leader of oil-rich Venezuela became Latin America's most vocal and controversial leader and was Washington's chief antagonist in the region.
Seriously though, I've spoken to some people from Venezuela and they all concur that Chavez is a cancer(heh) on the country. Hopefully the guy that lost to Chavez in the last election can win the next one, he seemed innovative.
Not surprising I guess, he was really sick for awhile and I heard the last few surgeries were not successful. Dunno how I feel about this. Regardless of how he ran his county, he still had some balls to criticize the U.S constantly.
He was more than a bit crazy, and extremely power-hungry, but in the end he had a dream of a united South America, and tried his best to make it happen. Whether you share his ideology or not, there are lessons to be learned from this man.
Huge news. In 30 days there is supposed to be a new election, probably between Nicolás Maduro, the acting president, and Henrique Capriles Radonski, who fought a tough campaign against Chavez last time. Should be a tremendous battle.
On March 06 2013 07:14 tshi wrote: I hope the next president is a bit more peaceful and works better with America/The world.
I hope just the opposite!
And why would you ever hope that?
I don't know why, but if I had to take a guess, it would probably have to do with the fact that the US is history's greatest empire, with extreme hegemony and influence over many countries in the world, especially your own. There is no balance, and especially not total balance. I guess he doesn't want Venezuela to be another US pawn. :S Then again, we know how countries like that end up, especially if it's in one the world's most important strategic regions (Iraq 1991-2012).
And now we are going to have so many uninformed post about how he was a great man... he was a populist that bought his place in power by wasting the money that they got from oil, instead of investing it to really improve the society, fight against violence, corruption etc. Basically, a wasted capital.
On March 06 2013 07:14 tshi wrote: I hope the next president is a bit more peaceful and works better with America/The world.
I hope just the opposite!
And why would you ever hope that?
I don't know why, but if I had to take a guess, it would probably have to do with the fact that the US is history's greatest empire, with extreme hegemony and influence over many countries in the world, especially your own. There is no balance, and especially not total balance. I guess he doesn't want Venezuela to be another US pawn. :S Then again, we know how countries like that end up, especially if it's in one the world's most important strategic regions (Iraq 1991-2012).
historys greatest empire
id say RIP,but im sure that sob will raise some hell in....wherever he ends up >.<
On March 06 2013 07:27 Jetaap wrote: And now we are going to have so many uninformed post about how he was a great man... he was a populist that bought his place in power by wasting the money that they got from oil, instead of investing it to really improve the society, fight against violence, corruption etc. Basically, a wasted capital.
Agreed. He will join South American revolutionists league of legends...
On March 06 2013 07:14 tshi wrote: I hope the next president is a bit more peaceful and works better with America/The world.
I hope just the opposite!
And why would you ever hope that?
I don't know why, but if I had to take a guess, it would probably have to do with the fact that the US is history's greatest empire, with extreme hegemony and influence over many countries in the world, especially your own. There is no balance, and especially not total balance. I guess he doesn't want Venezuela to be another US pawn. :S Then again, we know how countries like that end up, especially if it's in one the world's most important strategic regions (Iraq 1991-2012).
Nah, the British empire at its height was a far greater beast. A very good book on the failing of Americas empire is Incoherent Empire by Michael Mann:
Think the more important question is whether the VP, if he wins election, or his opponent can tackle runaway inflation while handling a crime rate that is one of the worst in the world.
On March 06 2013 07:27 Jetaap wrote: And now we are going to have so many uninformed post about how he was a great man... he was a populist that bought his place in power by wasting the money that they got from oil, instead of investing it to really improve the society, fight against violence, corruption etc. Basically, a wasted capital.
Agreed. He will join South American revolutionists league of legends...
True that, the man was a saint and his face will look great on them t-shirts!
On March 06 2013 07:19 tree.hugger wrote: Huge news. In 30 days there is supposed to be a new election, probably between Nicolás Maduro, the acting president, and Henrique Capriles Radonski, who fought a tough campaign against Chavez last time. Should be a tremendous battle.
Frankly, I think it will be a landslide in favor of Maduro. The question is: will Chavez be an everlasting ghost in venezuelan politics, akin to Peron in Argentina?
Possibly the most overrated politican of the last decades, he was a loudmouth who made a career out of berating the US for the most frivolous and inane reasons. Good riddance.
On March 06 2013 07:14 tshi wrote: I hope the next president is a bit more peaceful and works better with America/The world.
I hope just the opposite!
And why would you ever hope that?
I don't know why, but if I had to take a guess, it would probably have to do with the fact that the US is history's greatest empire, with extreme hegemony and influence over many countries in the world, especially your own. There is no balance, and especially not total balance. I guess he doesn't want Venezuela to be another US pawn. :S Then again, we know how countries like that end up, especially if it's in one the world's most important strategic regions (Iraq 1991-2012).
Nah, the British empire at its height was a far greater beast. A very good book on the failing of Americas empire is Incoherent Empire by Michael Mann:
Its incoherency is precisely its strength. Welcome to postmodernity. (edit: I'm gonna read that book though, thanks. Go Verso!)
On March 06 2013 07:37 McBengt wrote: Possible the most overrated politican of the last decades, he was a loudmouth who made a career out of berating the US for the most frivolous and inane reasons. Good riddance.
what's wrong with that? Somebody's gotta do it. The US needs some berating, I don't care by whom or for what.
On March 06 2013 07:37 sam!zdat wrote: what's wrong with that? Somebody's gotta do it. The US needs some berating, I don't care by whom or for what.
Oh nothing wrong with it on principle, I do it myself from time to time. For Chavez it was a business model, and an incredibly dishonest one to boot. He was basically like a teabagger on steroids, anything the US was for, he was against, just because.
On March 06 2013 07:37 sam!zdat wrote: what's wrong with that? Somebody's gotta do it. The US needs some berating, I don't care by whom or for what.
Oh nothing wrong with it on principle, I do it myself from time to time. For Chavez it was a business model, and an incredibly dishonest one to boot. He was basically like a teabagger on steroids, anything the US was for, he was against, just because.
the US have been doing that for years. Its called the Cold War (e.g supporting talibans against communism in Afghanistan, declining any kind of help offered from Cuba in order to deal with Catrina, forbidding people to get educated on Cuba basically anything with Cuba).
I honestly dont see it as more dishonest than any other kind of political propaganda.
On March 06 2013 07:14 tshi wrote: I hope the next president is a bit more peaceful and works better with America/The world.
I hope just the opposite!
And why would you ever hope that?
I don't know why, but if I had to take a guess, it would probably have to do with the fact that the US is history's greatest empire, with extreme hegemony and influence over many countries in the world, especially your own. There is no balance, and especially not total balance. I guess he doesn't want Venezuela to be another US pawn. :S Then again, we know how countries like that end up, especially if it's in one the world's most important strategic regions (Iraq 1991-2012).
Nah, the British empire at its height was a far greater beast. A very good book on the failing of Americas empire is Incoherent Empire by Michael Mann:
After World War 2, imperialism evolved from territorial to hegemonic, like the old Assyrian style. The US dominates most of Europe (esp. after Cold War), parts of the Far East, parts of the Mideast, much of South America, all of North America, Australia, any country in Africa desperate enough for money that it allows itself to be completely exploited (and there's lots of those), and even parts of Antarctica (lol).
The British didn't have that. Not even the USSR came close.
On March 06 2013 07:37 sam!zdat wrote: what's wrong with that? Somebody's gotta do it. The US needs some berating, I don't care by whom or for what.
Oh nothing wrong with it on principle, I do it myself from time to time. For Chavez it was a business model, and an incredibly dishonest one to boot. He was basically like a teabagger on steroids, anything the US was for, he was against, just because.
the US have been doing that for years. Its called the Cold War (e.g supporting talibans against communism in Afghanistan, declining any kind of help offered from Cuba in order to deal with Catrina, forbidding people to get educated on Cuba basically anything with Cuba).
I honestly dont see it as more dishonest than any other kind of political propaganda.
I don't see how that makes what he did any better. It was dishonest because he was projecting an image of a principled rebel who was taking a stand against the big bad USA, when in reality he was just a petty demagogue who picked an easy target.
On March 06 2013 08:05 Destro wrote: never thought hed die before castro.
Castro will never die!!!
I don't see how that makes what he did any better. It was dishonest because he was projecting an image of a principled rebel who was taking a stand against the big bad USA, when in reality he was just a petty demagogue who picked an easy target.
Because he was pretty much doing the same thing as any other politician (our Swedish government included)
But in my eyes he stood above the most due to his social programs and promotion of equality within Venezuela.
define it all you want, in my eyes, he did take a stand against the bad USA.
Maduro said that Chavez got cancer because of the US conspiring against him. That they infected Chavez with Cancer, and that it was a conspiracy that tried to kill him.
lol. I'm not happy about it, but I can't say I feel sorry.
He was very very very tough on people who deserved a bit of mercy too, and he was relentless and merciless to some people who were just vicitms. Crime rate is insane, people work just to survive, you don't get any security at all.
Anyway, I hope the next one is a better and honest man, Capriles wouldn't be a bad change for a while. Maduro heh, guy isn't ready to be a President
On March 06 2013 07:14 tshi wrote: I hope the next president is a bit more peaceful and works better with America/The world.
I hope just the opposite!
And why would you ever hope that?
I don't know why, but if I had to take a guess, it would probably have to do with the fact that the US is history's greatest empire, with extreme hegemony and influence over many countries in the world, especially your own. There is no balance, and especially not total balance. I guess he doesn't want Venezuela to be another US pawn. :S Then again, we know how countries like that end up, especially if it's in one the world's most important strategic regions (Iraq 1991-2012).
Nah, the British empire at its height was a far greater beast. A very good book on the failing of Americas empire is Incoherent Empire by Michael Mann:
After World War 2, imperialism evolved from territorial to hegemonic, like the old Assyrian style. The US dominates most of Europe (esp. after Cold War), parts of the Far East, parts of the Mideast, much of South America, all of North America, Australia, any country in Africa desperate enough for money that it allows itself to be completely exploited (and there's lots of those), and even parts of Antarctica (lol).
The British didn't have that. Not even the USSR came close.
If you want to see what actual hegemony is, study the British empire, America can hardly control its neighbors or influenced states trading patterns. When Canada is not satisfied with how much oil America is buying we simply turn around an offer it to China. When China wasn't satisfied with British opium flowing into its borders they tried to stop that but failed, badly. America doesn't have the economic means to influence world trade to anywhere near the degree the British empire did. You say oh look at the Iran sanctions that is economic control, I say look at the very American companies that broke the sanctions to continue doing business with Iran. The American government hardly has the ability to control its own corporations. If you actually read the book it would give you a good idea why America is a failing empire.
On March 06 2013 07:26 sam!zdat wrote: I like to see people stand up to America. We need more of that.
The man attempted a military coup, you don't get to talk shit about the elected leaders of any other country when you think it's okay to seize power by force.
On March 06 2013 07:14 tshi wrote: I hope the next president is a bit more peaceful and works better with America/The world.
I hope just the opposite!
And why would you ever hope that?
I don't know why, but if I had to take a guess, it would probably have to do with the fact that the US is history's greatest empire, with extreme hegemony and influence over many countries in the world, especially your own. There is no balance, and especially not total balance. I guess he doesn't want Venezuela to be another US pawn. :S Then again, we know how countries like that end up, especially if it's in one the world's most important strategic regions (Iraq 1991-2012).
Nah, the British empire at its height was a far greater beast. A very good book on the failing of Americas empire is Incoherent Empire by Michael Mann:
After World War 2, imperialism evolved from territorial to hegemonic, like the old Assyrian style. The US dominates most of Europe (esp. after Cold War), parts of the Far East, parts of the Mideast, much of South America, all of North America, Australia, any country in Africa desperate enough for money that it allows itself to be completely exploited (and there's lots of those), and even parts of Antarctica (lol).
The British didn't have that. Not even the USSR came close.
On March 06 2013 08:06 funkie wrote: Maduro said that Chavez got cancer because of the US conspiring against him. That they infected Chavez with Cancer, and that it was a conspiracy that tried to kill him.
Didn't they like expel the US ambassador or something similar because of this? Something i just read briefly. Anyways, I hope Venezuela stays safe and things get better (as safe as they can be, if you have any clue about the situation over there).
On March 06 2013 07:26 sam!zdat wrote: I like to see people stand up to America. We need more of that.
The man attempted a military coup, you don't get to talk shit about the elected leaders of any other country when you think it's okay to seize power by force.
let he who is without sin throw the first stone...
My beef is AMERICA seizing power by force, which we have a nasty habit of trying to do.
Meh, I'm not trying to defend Chavez, I don't know enough about it. I just got a soft spot for anyone who stands up to America, that's pretty much it. I don't like ANYONE who's in power
I was always mixed about him. I have a friend from Venezuela whose mother hated him, and she hated him as well. When I look on it, he did do a lot for the poor, but there were a lot of things wrong with his government. Here's to a better future I guess.
On March 06 2013 08:06 funkie wrote: Maduro said that Chavez got cancer because of the US conspiring against him. That they infected Chavez with Cancer, and that it was a conspiracy that tried to kill him.
Didn't they like expel the US ambassador or something similar because of this? Something i just read briefly. Anyways, I hope Venezuela stays safe (as safe as they can be, if you have any clue about the situation over there).
On March 06 2013 08:06 funkie wrote: Maduro said that Chavez got cancer because of the US conspiring against him. That they infected Chavez with Cancer, and that it was a conspiracy that tried to kill him.
Didn't they like expel the US ambassador or something similar because of this? Something i just read briefly. Anyways, I hope Venezuela stays safe (as safe as they can be, if you have any clue about the situation over there).
Yeah, that was earlier today.
I wonder how many people are going to buy this type of bullshit.
I don't really care what people on TL or other parts of the internet think or say. I have too many Venezuelan friends who lost everything when Chavez took power and fled to the US because they either feared for their lives or didn't want to live the rest of their lives in poverty because they were part of the wrong party/had all of their shit seized by the government.
I hope they get a proper government now but I'm sure it'll probably just be more of the same.
On March 06 2013 08:06 funkie wrote: Maduro said that Chavez got cancer because of the US conspiring against him. That they infected Chavez with Cancer, and that it was a conspiracy that tried to kill him.
Didn't they like expel the US ambassador or something similar because of this? Something i just read briefly. Anyways, I hope Venezuela stays safe (as safe as they can be, if you have any clue about the situation over there).
Yeah, that was earlier today.
I wonder how many people are going to buy this type of bullshit.
Uhh all of them. At my place at work, there are like 1-2 Chavistas, and well, they started "attacking" the rest of us because we said that was just stupid. They specially attacked me since I have traveled to the US and well, they "hate" the US cause they killed Chavez..
lol, some people are just plain ignorant. I wish there was a minimal education requirement to vote. That'd make things much much better for everyone here.
Just because Chavez opposed something negative (US imperialism) doesn't make him a good person.
He did help the poor but not because of the goodness of his heart or because it was his ideal, he did so because the poor would reelect him, look at Uruguay's president if you want to see a true leftist. He fucked over just about everyone he could while still being able to be reelected. That makes him an amazing politician but hardly a good and noble leader.
On March 06 2013 08:16 CoR wrote: r.i.p. one of the last big who hold against usa in worldbankeconomystuff and if you could say 1 thing about him, he was 100% NO puppet !
No puppet? Haha, that's a good one. You might call him Castro's puppet. He always did what they told him to do, and they were part of all this "scheme" to keep his death secret and have Maduro on the power as long as possible.
On March 06 2013 08:17 funkie wrote: lol, some people are just plain ignorant. I wish there was a minimal education requirement to vote. That'd make things much much better for everyone here.
this is a good idea no matter what country you live in. of course, then you have to have free education and the social stability for people to pursue it.
On March 06 2013 08:16 CoR wrote: r.i.p. one of the last big who hold against usa in worldbankeconomystuff and if you could say 1 thing about him, he was 100% NO puppet !
No puppet? Haha, that's a good one. You might call him Castro's puppet. He always did what they told him to do, and they were part of all this "scheme" to keep his death secret and have Maduro on the power as long as possible.
Blah.
Not to mention that he gladly brought in Chinese imperialist influence in South America. For example, he allowed 40 percent of the Venezuelan railroads to be privatized by China.
On March 06 2013 08:16 CoR wrote: r.i.p. one of the last big who hold against usa in worldbankeconomystuff and if you could say 1 thing about him, he was 100% NO puppet !
No puppet? Haha, that's a good one. You might call him Castro's puppet. He always did what they told him to do, and they were part of all this "scheme" to keep his death secret and have Maduro on the power as long as possible.
Blah.
Not to mention that he gladly brought in Chinese imperialist influence in South America. For example, he allowed 40 percent of the Venezuelan railroads to be privatized by China.
"He allowed 40 percent of the Venezuelan railroads to be privatized by USA." That would be ok?
On March 06 2013 08:16 CoR wrote: r.i.p. one of the last big who hold against usa in worldbankeconomystuff and if you could say 1 thing about him, he was 100% NO puppet !
No puppet? Haha, that's a good one. You might call him Castro's puppet. He always did what they told him to do, and they were part of all this "scheme" to keep his death secret and have Maduro on the power as long as possible.
Blah.
Not to mention that he gladly brought in Chinese imperialist influence in South America. For example, he allowed 40 percent of the Venezuelan railroads to be privatized by China.
"He allowed 40 percent of the Venezuelan railroads to be privatized by USA." That would be ok?
We can debate whether it is okay or not, my point is that he is unbelievably hypocritical and is obsessed with anti-Americanism and anti-NATO. We are talking about a self-proclaimed socialist and Maoist on one occasion who allows foreign privatization.
Also to give a direct answer, I think it would be horrible if the railroads were privatized by any nation.
On March 06 2013 08:16 CoR wrote: r.i.p. one of the last big who hold against usa in worldbankeconomystuff and if you could say 1 thing about him, he was 100% NO puppet !
No puppet? Haha, that's a good one. You might call him Castro's puppet. He always did what they told him to do, and they were part of all this "scheme" to keep his death secret and have Maduro on the power as long as possible.
Blah.
Not to mention that he gladly brought in Chinese imperialist influence in South America. For example, he allowed 40 percent of the Venezuelan railroads to be privatized by China.
Whether it is Chinese, from the US, or European, it's equally as bad.
Hell, water in my country is owned by Spanish companies. And yes, it sucks. It's expensive, and service gets frequent interrumptions, plus customer service sucks balls. And my country gets nothing out of its own water. Horrible.
On March 06 2013 07:27 Jetaap wrote: And now we are going to have so many uninformed post about how he was a great man... he was a populist that bought his place in power by wasting the money that they got from oil, instead of investing it to really improve the society, fight against violence, corruption etc. Basically, a wasted capital.
I guess you could use the same description when talking about a lot of the leaders in this world, both in developed and developing countries.
On March 06 2013 08:16 CoR wrote: r.i.p. one of the last big who hold against usa in worldbankeconomystuff and if you could say 1 thing about him, he was 100% NO puppet !
No puppet? Haha, that's a good one. You might call him Castro's puppet. He always did what they told him to do, and they were part of all this "scheme" to keep his death secret and have Maduro on the power as long as possible.
Blah.
Not to mention that he gladly brought in Chinese imperialist influence in South America. For example, he allowed 40 percent of the Venezuelan railroads to be privatized by China.
Whether it is Chinese, from the US, or European, it's equally as bad.
Hell, water in my country is owned by Spanish companies. And yes, it sucks. It's expensive, and service gets frequent interrumptions, plus customer service sucks balls. And my country gets nothing out of its own water. Horrible.
Just sounds like service in general. Over here in Sydney our rail system is so appalling and has probably already hit rock bottom in terms of reliability, service, train quality, and cost. A foreign ownership might actually be good if they start downsizing all the flab.
I don't see how that makes what he did any better. It was dishonest because he was projecting an image of a principled rebel who was taking a stand against the big bad USA, when in reality he was just a petty demagogue who picked an easy target.
Because he was pretty much doing the same thing as any other politician (our Swedish government included)
But in my eyes he stood above the most due to his social programs and promotion of equality within Venezuela.
define it all you want, in my eyes, he did take a stand against the bad USA.
I'm not sure what the point is here. I've never claimed there aren't other politicians as bad/worse than him. I just don't like the aura of righteousness that sorrounds him, since I find it to be entirely undeserved.
On March 06 2013 08:16 CoR wrote: r.i.p. one of the last big who hold against usa in worldbankeconomystuff and if you could say 1 thing about him, he was 100% NO puppet !
Anti-americans might seem a little more legitimate if they actually offered something that was better than or at least equal to american democracy/capitalism instead of just pounding at the lectern. There wasn't anything stellar about his economic policies and he was responsible for high inflation, high crime rate, and failure to meaningfully close the wealth gap.
This man was scum. Venezuela has large oil deposits, natural wealth and a stable region and instead of making it a paradise he made it a nation with one of the most murders per capita, made sure the population was poor and forced to work for the government (about a 3rd of the population does) and made use of anti gay and anti semitic rhetoric constantly. Hopefully this will change and Venezuela will start following the path of Brazil instead of staying in the muck.
I am glad he died. He inflicted so much pain and misery on the people of Venezuela, progressively ruining that country- South America will be much better off without the rampant populism of this man who was elected democratically but ruled like a dictator, making a mockery of democratic separation of powers, persecuting all dissenting voices, shutting down all media outlets that had enough integrity to stand against him, confiscating private property as he pleased then running it to the ground, like Venezuela's once prosperous metals industries.
I hope that now, the people of Venezuela will be able to climb out of the rancid pit that Hugo Chavez has put them in.
On March 06 2013 08:16 CoR wrote: r.i.p. one of the last big who hold against usa in worldbankeconomystuff and if you could say 1 thing about him, he was 100% NO puppet !
Anti-americans might seem a little more legitimate if they actually offered something that was better than or at least equal to american democracy/capitalism instead of just pounding at the lectern. There wasn't anything stellar about his economic policies and he was responsible for high inflation, high crime rate, and failure to meaningfully close the wealth gap.
Brazil is a pretty good example of this but I dunno if you can reasonably call them anti-Americans anymore. I think they still have serious issues and grievances with the US but they openly trade and do business with us so...
They're pretty much the best example of what can happen when a socialist Latin American country decides they don't want to isolate themselves from the biggest economic power in the world.
On March 06 2013 08:46 Shiragaku wrote: Its depressing to see leftists loving Chavez for the wrong reason and rightists hating Chavez for the wrong reasons
On March 06 2013 07:26 sam!zdat wrote: I like to see people stand up to America. We need more of that.
The man attempted a military coup, you don't get to talk shit about the elected leaders of any other country when you think it's okay to seize power by force.
wasn't chavez the guy who survived a military coup backed by the us or am i mixing up my south american leaders?
edit: surely after that he should be given some slack to throw shit back.
He was a thorn in the side of the American Hegemony which fuels my voraciously insatiable American appetites. Rot in Hell he would dare upset my luxurious American lifestyle, ROT IN HELL!
On March 06 2013 07:26 sam!zdat wrote: I like to see people stand up to America. We need more of that.
The man attempted a military coup, you don't get to talk shit about the elected leaders of any other country when you think it's okay to seize power by force.
wasn't chavez the guy who survived a military coup backed by the us or am i mixing up my south american leaders?
edit: surely after that he should be given some slack to throw shit back.
you aren't. Most people that posted in this thread dont know anything about venezuela.
On March 06 2013 07:26 sam!zdat wrote: I like to see people stand up to America. We need more of that.
The man attempted a military coup, you don't get to talk shit about the elected leaders of any other country when you think it's okay to seize power by force.
wasn't chavez the guy who survived a military coup backed by the us or am i mixing up my south american leaders?
edit: surely after that he should be given some slack to throw shit back.
His attempt was on 4 February 1992. The "alleged" coup against him was in 2002.
On March 06 2013 07:26 sam!zdat wrote: I like to see people stand up to America. We need more of that.
The man attempted a military coup, you don't get to talk shit about the elected leaders of any other country when you think it's okay to seize power by force.
wasn't chavez the guy who survived a military coup backed by the us or am i mixing up my south american leaders?
edit: surely after that he should be given some slack to throw shit back.
you aren't. Most people that posted in this thread dont know anything about venezuela.
nobody was talking about what i can or can't do, but i can assure you there are very few constraints in my immediate environment.
edit: @funkie how does the causality of the coups come into play here.
Surely I didn't share many of his political views and wouldn't want to have lived under his government, but his presence surely improved global political discussions.
On March 06 2013 08:46 Shiragaku wrote: Its depressing to see leftists loving Chavez for the wrong reason and rightists hating Chavez for the wrong reasons
What about people like me, leftists who hated his guts?
On March 06 2013 08:16 CoR wrote: r.i.p. one of the last big who hold against usa in worldbankeconomystuff and if you could say 1 thing about him, he was 100% NO puppet !
Anti-americans might seem a little more legitimate if they actually offered something that was better than or at least equal to american democracy/capitalism instead of just pounding at the lectern. There wasn't anything stellar about his economic policies and he was responsible for high inflation, high crime rate, and failure to meaningfully close the wealth gap.
Brazil is a pretty good example of this but I dunno if you can reasonably call them anti-Americans anymore. I think they still have serious issues and grievances with the US but they openly trade and do business with us so...
They're pretty much the best example of what can happen when a socialist Latin American country decides they don't want to isolate themselves from the biggest economic power in the world.
You scared me for a moment. I had to open my window to see if there was any socialism here. Phew, not today. Didn't see any american flags burning either.
Brazil has a larger social safety net than US (% of GDP), but it's not close to a socialist country by any definition, nor has it ever been. It's clearly a capitalist economy with increasing privatization of public services and corporations, with strong democratic institutions and separation of power. It's political/economical status is significantly closer to US than to Venezuela.
On March 06 2013 08:46 Shiragaku wrote: Its depressing to see leftists loving Chavez for the wrong reason and rightists hating Chavez for the wrong reasons
What about people like me, leftists who hated his guts?
On March 06 2013 08:46 Shiragaku wrote: Its depressing to see leftists loving Chavez for the wrong reason and rightists hating Chavez for the wrong reasons
What about people like me, leftists who hated his guts?
Silly, you don't exist! Clearly you're a figment of your imagination.
RIP. Nice that he supported social programs that include state-run food markets, new public housing, free health clinics and education programs, can't say much about what he didn't do due to my lack of knowledge in that area. Hopefully the next president stands up for what's right and fair
On March 06 2013 08:46 Shiragaku wrote: Its depressing to see leftists loving Chavez for the wrong reason and rightists hating Chavez for the wrong reasons
What about people like me, leftists who hated his guts?
Silly, you don't exist! Clearly you're a figment of your imagination.
On March 06 2013 09:24 Kukaracha wrote: I'm not sure of what to think. He was a controversial man.
Regardless, a man has died. Life has been lost, respects must be paid; if not to the man, if not to his life, then to the idea of life itself, and how it can end so suddenly.
Honestly, he sounds like he got shit done and wasn't so bad.
From wiki:
Chávez has been strictly enforcing the price control policy, denouncing anyone who sells food products for higher prices as "speculators".[265] In January 2008, Chávez ordered the military to seize 750 tons of food that sellers were illegally trying to smuggle across the border to sell for higher prices than what was legal in Venezuela.[272] In February 2009, Chávez ordered the military to temporarily seize control of all the rice processing plants in the country and force them to produce at full capacity, which he claimed they had been avoiding in response to the price caps.[273] In May 2010, Chávez ordered the military to seize 120 tons of food from Empresas Polar after inconsistencies in reports from the Empresas Polar conglomerate were said to have been detected by authorities.[274]
On March 06 2013 08:46 Shiragaku wrote: Its depressing to see leftists loving Chavez for the wrong reason and rightists hating Chavez for the wrong reasons
What about people like me, leftists who hated his guts?
Silly, you don't exist! Clearly you're a figment of your imagination.
Chávez has been strictly enforcing the price control policy, denouncing anyone who sells food products for higher prices as "speculators".[265] In January 2008, Chávez ordered the military to seize 750 tons of food that sellers were illegally trying to smuggle across the border to sell for higher prices than what was legal in Venezuela.[272] In February 2009, Chávez ordered the military to temporarily seize control of all the rice processing plants in the country and force them to produce at full capacity, which he claimed they had been avoiding in response to the price caps.[273] In May 2010, Chávez ordered the military to seize 120 tons of food from Empresas Polar after inconsistencies in reports from the Empresas Polar conglomerate were said to have been detected by authorities.[274]
How can people criticize this sort of thing?
Because it raises the obvious question, "Why would people want to buy food at a higher price in the first place?"
Which then leads to the obvious answer, "Because there is a demand."
So, he was halting a voluntary exchange between individuals to protect his groups monopoly on food sales. Do you LIKE monopolies? O_o?
Chávez has been strictly enforcing the price control policy, denouncing anyone who sells food products for higher prices as "speculators".[265] In January 2008, Chávez ordered the military to seize 750 tons of food that sellers were illegally trying to smuggle across the border to sell for higher prices than what was legal in Venezuela.[272] In February 2009, Chávez ordered the military to temporarily seize control of all the rice processing plants in the country and force them to produce at full capacity, which he claimed they had been avoiding in response to the price caps.[273] In May 2010, Chávez ordered the military to seize 120 tons of food from Empresas Polar after inconsistencies in reports from the Empresas Polar conglomerate were said to have been detected by authorities.[274]
How can people criticize this sort of thing?
They siezed, but they never distributed to anybody that food. That food got lost, and was left to perish and go to waste. Many ship containers were filled with food too, milk, and whatnot, They were also lost and were not used to the benefit of the people.
On paper he was the greatest, by his actions he just..wasn't. At all.
On March 06 2013 09:34 Mohdoo wrote: Honestly, he sounds like he got shit done and wasn't so bad.
From wiki:
Chávez has been strictly enforcing the price control policy, denouncing anyone who sells food products for higher prices as "speculators".[265] In January 2008, Chávez ordered the military to seize 750 tons of food that sellers were illegally trying to smuggle across the border to sell for higher prices than what was legal in Venezuela.[272] In February 2009, Chávez ordered the military to temporarily seize control of all the rice processing plants in the country and force them to produce at full capacity, which he claimed they had been avoiding in response to the price caps.[273] In May 2010, Chávez ordered the military to seize 120 tons of food from Empresas Polar after inconsistencies in reports from the Empresas Polar conglomerate were said to have been detected by authorities.[274]
How can people criticize this sort of thing?
Because it raises the obvious question, "Why would people want to buy food at a higher price in the first place?"
Which then leads to the obvious answer, "Because there is a demand."
So, he was halting a voluntary exchange between individuals to protect his groups monopoly on food sales. Do you LIKE monopolies? O_o?
I was primarily referring to the fact that he used the military to force companies to maintain high production. They were trying to limit the amount of rice so that they could make more money later. That is wrong and Chavez stopped it.
On March 06 2013 09:34 Mohdoo wrote: Honestly, he sounds like he got shit done and wasn't so bad.
From wiki:
Chávez has been strictly enforcing the price control policy, denouncing anyone who sells food products for higher prices as "speculators".[265] In January 2008, Chávez ordered the military to seize 750 tons of food that sellers were illegally trying to smuggle across the border to sell for higher prices than what was legal in Venezuela.[272] In February 2009, Chávez ordered the military to temporarily seize control of all the rice processing plants in the country and force them to produce at full capacity, which he claimed they had been avoiding in response to the price caps.[273] In May 2010, Chávez ordered the military to seize 120 tons of food from Empresas Polar after inconsistencies in reports from the Empresas Polar conglomerate were said to have been detected by authorities.[274]
How can people criticize this sort of thing?
Because it raises the obvious question, "Why would people want to buy food at a higher price in the first place?"
Which then leads to the obvious answer, "Because there is a demand."
So, he was halting a voluntary exchange between individuals to protect his groups monopoly on food sales. Do you LIKE monopolies? O_o?
I was primarily referring to the fact that he used the military to force companies to maintain high production. They were trying to limit the amount of rice so that they could make more money later. That is wrong and Chavez stopped it.
Oh. See, I was under the impression that the little wiki blurb you posted simply said Chavez CLAIMED they had been artificially raising prices.
Chávez has been strictly enforcing the price control policy, denouncing anyone who sells food products for higher prices as "speculators".[265] In January 2008, Chávez ordered the military to seize 750 tons of food that sellers were illegally trying to smuggle across the border to sell for higher prices than what was legal in Venezuela.[272] In February 2009, Chávez ordered the military to temporarily seize control of all the rice processing plants in the country and force them to produce at full capacity, which he claimed they had been avoiding in response to the price caps.[273] In May 2010, Chávez ordered the military to seize 120 tons of food from Empresas Polar after inconsistencies in reports from the Empresas Polar conglomerate were said to have been detected by authorities.[274]
How can people criticize this sort of thing?
Surely you're joking. So there were people who were willing to pay a lot of money for food, think about that for a second, they were hungry. That's why people pay a lot above the normal price for food, because they can't get any food at the normal price and they're starving. The beauty of supply and demand is that when that demand appears then people are incentivised to meet it and they get fed. Clearly the state supply of food here was inadequate for whatever reason. So, he failed to feed his people and then, when they attempted to feed themselves, he condemned their hunger based upon his ideology and used the army against them. This is the problem people have with the authoritarian left. They're assholes.
On March 06 2013 09:34 Mohdoo wrote: Honestly, he sounds like he got shit done and wasn't so bad.
From wiki:
Chávez has been strictly enforcing the price control policy, denouncing anyone who sells food products for higher prices as "speculators".[265] In January 2008, Chávez ordered the military to seize 750 tons of food that sellers were illegally trying to smuggle across the border to sell for higher prices than what was legal in Venezuela.[272] In February 2009, Chávez ordered the military to temporarily seize control of all the rice processing plants in the country and force them to produce at full capacity, which he claimed they had been avoiding in response to the price caps.[273] In May 2010, Chávez ordered the military to seize 120 tons of food from Empresas Polar after inconsistencies in reports from the Empresas Polar conglomerate were said to have been detected by authorities.[274]
How can people criticize this sort of thing?
Because it raises the obvious question, "Why would people want to buy food at a higher price in the first place?"
Which then leads to the obvious answer, "Because there is a demand."
So, he was halting a voluntary exchange between individuals to protect his groups monopoly on food sales. Do you LIKE monopolies? O_o?
I was primarily referring to the fact that he used the military to force companies to maintain high production. They were trying to limit the amount of rice so that they could make more money later. That is wrong and Chavez stopped it.
Oh. See, I was under the impression that the little wiki blurb you posted simply said Chavez CLAIMED they had been artificially raising prices.
...wait a second....
I suppose that's fair enough. I admit almost complete ignorance in regards to what Chavez did, it just seems like some criticisms are more so on him taking charge. I don't think there is something inherently bad about him using the military to strong arm big business. If only we could do the same here in the US...
Being a Venezuelan, I'd like to explain shortly why we will always remenber him and what he meant to the country:
-His government was bad, crime is rampant, inflation, waste of resources, populism, all of it it's 100% true but the governments before were actually worse. He came to prominence as one of the heads of a coup d'etat in 1992 against a two-party system that served the same masters, the venezuelan economic powers, particularly the emerging nouveau rich bankers. Back then the country was comming out of a period similar to what the great depression was to the US because oil prices dropped to 7$, government debt was in a historic high, social spending was being dramatically cut and wages were dropped to the bottom, some 3 years before that, in february 27th 1989, FMI austerity measures were declared, that among other things increased the price of gasoline by 800%, the price of public buses went up accordingly and people that couldn't go to work rioted, the then pro-american government sent the army to the streets and around 3.000 were killed, of course the UN or any international body back then cared and nobody responsible went to jail. It was since then that the two party system was morally bankrupt, so Chávez's coup d'etat even though it was a failure got him on tv apologizing to the venezuelan people for doing it, people loved him since then because he admitted it was a mistake, after popular demand charges were dropped after 2 years in jail.
Then in 1993 a leftish presidential candidate that represented the people that supported Chavez won an election but electoral fraud was rampant and instead a well known extreme right winger took power, his government wasn't so bad until 1995 where banks were going bankrupt and he decided to bail them out, stimulus packet style but the banks still went bankrupt and another economic crisis started. Then in december 1998 Chavez wins the presidency with an actually pro-capitalist speech, he was a totally different kind of president back then and his popularity was huge, with time though, he started to change turning more and more leftish on the way, and being friendly with demonized people like Fidel Castro, but it wasn't until 2002 where he passed anti-latifundist, anti-bank monopoly (glass stegeal act-type) laws and an increase in taxes to foreign oil companies that the unrest that marked the rest of his government started, in 2002 a new right wing party with help from the CIA did a coup d'etat the next day after some people were killed in both pro and anti government protests, Chavez was kidnapped and forced to resign, all powers were dissolved and the president of Fedecamaras took oath as president, Fedecamaras being the biggest association of enterprises of the country. Too many bad things happened in those days, the army got videotapped practicing statements about doing the coup because people died on the streets before the first bullet was fired, the tv showed false videos blaming it on pro-Chavez crowds, the FMI approuved new loans to "rebuild the government from the Chavez regime" the same day the coup happened... it was all a joke. 2 days after the coup people were doing huge protests around the presidential palace demanding Chavez to be brought back, and he was, since then he radicalized his government. Then that same year, in chrismast, the same people that did the coup d'etat sabotaged the oil industry resulting in losses to the nation in the order of at least 20$ billions, scarcity in all products especially food pissed people off quite a lot, but this second attempt was even worse than the first because after 15 days the government re-started the oil production but politically the right wing took the blame of all the country's problems, to this day, basically.
After 2006 he became really power hungry since he won a second term destroying the opposition in the votings, nobody likes them to this day like I said before. In 2010 in the middle of a new economic crisis, this time created by the Chavez government and not due to the same old right wing people his popularity started to drop quite a lot, for the first time he got defeated in an election quite badly (Congress election) and things weren't looking good for his 'socialism', since then capitalism went back with a lot of strenght with a socialist speech of course, a lot of oil fields were privatized and oil companies from all over the world went back to the country to increase oil production, notably from the satanized US and Europe and the new allies Russia and China that were promoted as different types of capitalists because of their obvious backgrounds. That wasn't enough, so gold, iron, all sorts of minerals, etc, were given in a golden plate to other transnationals, even with this the economic recovery wasn't good enough, so in 2012 to win a third term Chavez started a huge policy of social spending, the thing is the government doesn't really have money to keep with this, so the only way to sustain this for a while was drowning in debt, the external debt increased quite a lot, and less than a month ago the currency had to be devaluated 46.5% to cheap the price of labour and debt in the local currency, so the government could keep the social spending with oil-dollars.
As you can see american friends, american intervention in coup d'etats usually goes wrong, if it wasn't for your CIA Chavez probably would have lost in the 2006 election because in 2002 his government wasn't doing good, but somehow warmongers in Venezuela and USA though that killing our people and putting a dictator in place was a great idea and that failed miserably, as if that wasn't enough they tried a second time that year sabotaging the oil industry, paralizing the country because there wasn't any gasoline to go around or gas to cook food, they though it was brilliant because people would blame that somehow on Chavez... obviously it was a huge mistake.
In case you wonder I did vote for Chavez all these years, i'm his supporter but his government was far from good, in comparison to the ones before, though, it was the best we had since 1956, back then we had a right wing dictator that wanted to do elections some day but as you guessed it, he was coup d'etaed with support of the CIA, so they could put a puppet in place. The venezuelan people always remenber that government as being the best of our history, and Chavez without a doubt the second best.
On March 06 2013 09:34 Mohdoo wrote: Honestly, he sounds like he got shit done and wasn't so bad.
From wiki:
Chávez has been strictly enforcing the price control policy, denouncing anyone who sells food products for higher prices as "speculators".[265] In January 2008, Chávez ordered the military to seize 750 tons of food that sellers were illegally trying to smuggle across the border to sell for higher prices than what was legal in Venezuela.[272] In February 2009, Chávez ordered the military to temporarily seize control of all the rice processing plants in the country and force them to produce at full capacity, which he claimed they had been avoiding in response to the price caps.[273] In May 2010, Chávez ordered the military to seize 120 tons of food from Empresas Polar after inconsistencies in reports from the Empresas Polar conglomerate were said to have been detected by authorities.[274]
How can people criticize this sort of thing?
Because it raises the obvious question, "Why would people want to buy food at a higher price in the first place?"
Which then leads to the obvious answer, "Because there is a demand."
So, he was halting a voluntary exchange between individuals to protect his groups monopoly on food sales. Do you LIKE monopolies? O_o?
I was primarily referring to the fact that he used the military to force companies to maintain high production. They were trying to limit the amount of rice so that they could make more money later. That is wrong and Chavez stopped it.
Oh. See, I was under the impression that the little wiki blurb you posted simply said Chavez CLAIMED they had been artificially raising prices.
...wait a second....
I suppose that's fair enough. I admit almost complete ignorance in regards to what Chavez did, it just seems like some criticisms are more so on him taking charge. I don't think there is something inherently bad about him using the military to strong arm big business. If only we could do the same here in the US...
I don't think there is something inherently bad about using the military to strong arm Negros. If only we could do the same here....
Don't be so naive as to believe there is a moral high ground to be taken here. It's simply in-groups vs. in-groups. You'd just replace Big Business with some other group, and pray you were part of it. Then it'd be the numerically superior out-group trying to drag you down.
So...on that note, I agree with the "strong arm business part." Just not the, "People other than me and my group (whoever they are)" part.
On March 06 2013 09:34 Mohdoo wrote: Honestly, he sounds like he got shit done and wasn't so bad.
From wiki:
Chávez has been strictly enforcing the price control policy, denouncing anyone who sells food products for higher prices as "speculators".[265] In January 2008, Chávez ordered the military to seize 750 tons of food that sellers were illegally trying to smuggle across the border to sell for higher prices than what was legal in Venezuela.[272] In February 2009, Chávez ordered the military to temporarily seize control of all the rice processing plants in the country and force them to produce at full capacity, which he claimed they had been avoiding in response to the price caps.[273] In May 2010, Chávez ordered the military to seize 120 tons of food from Empresas Polar after inconsistencies in reports from the Empresas Polar conglomerate were said to have been detected by authorities.[274]
How can people criticize this sort of thing?
Surely you're joking. So there were people who were willing to pay a lot of money for food, think about that for a second, they were hungry. That's why people pay a lot above the normal price for food, because they can't get any food at the normal price and they're starving. The beauty of supply and demand is that when that demand appears then people are incentivised to meet it and they get fed. Clearly the state supply of food here was inadequate for whatever reason. So, he failed to feed his people and then, when they attempted to feed themselves, he condemned their hunger based upon his ideology and used the army against them. This is the problem people have with the authoritarian left. They're assholes.
so you're the kind of people who believe that speculation as nothing to do with political motives? You're far worse than an authoritarian leftist so.
On March 06 2013 09:34 Mohdoo wrote: Honestly, he sounds like he got shit done and wasn't so bad.
From wiki:
Chávez has been strictly enforcing the price control policy, denouncing anyone who sells food products for higher prices as "speculators".[265] In January 2008, Chávez ordered the military to seize 750 tons of food that sellers were illegally trying to smuggle across the border to sell for higher prices than what was legal in Venezuela.[272] In February 2009, Chávez ordered the military to temporarily seize control of all the rice processing plants in the country and force them to produce at full capacity, which he claimed they had been avoiding in response to the price caps.[273] In May 2010, Chávez ordered the military to seize 120 tons of food from Empresas Polar after inconsistencies in reports from the Empresas Polar conglomerate were said to have been detected by authorities.[274]
How can people criticize this sort of thing?
Surely you're joking. So there were people who were willing to pay a lot of money for food, think about that for a second, they were hungry. That's why people pay a lot above the normal price for food, because they can't get any food at the normal price and they're starving. The beauty of supply and demand is that when that demand appears then people are incentivised to meet it and they get fed. Clearly the state supply of food here was inadequate for whatever reason. So, he failed to feed his people and then, when they attempted to feed themselves, he condemned their hunger based upon his ideology and used the army against them. This is the problem people have with the authoritarian left. They're assholes.
so you're the kind of people who believe that speculation as nothing to do with political motives? You're far worse than an authoritarian leftist so.
It's true that speculation has been a means for the aristocratic right wing to destabilize South American regimes. However, I'm note sure it's the case here.
On March 06 2013 09:34 Mohdoo wrote: Honestly, he sounds like he got shit done and wasn't so bad.
From wiki:
Chávez has been strictly enforcing the price control policy, denouncing anyone who sells food products for higher prices as "speculators".[265] In January 2008, Chávez ordered the military to seize 750 tons of food that sellers were illegally trying to smuggle across the border to sell for higher prices than what was legal in Venezuela.[272] In February 2009, Chávez ordered the military to temporarily seize control of all the rice processing plants in the country and force them to produce at full capacity, which he claimed they had been avoiding in response to the price caps.[273] In May 2010, Chávez ordered the military to seize 120 tons of food from Empresas Polar after inconsistencies in reports from the Empresas Polar conglomerate were said to have been detected by authorities.[274]
How can people criticize this sort of thing?
Surely you're joking. So there were people who were willing to pay a lot of money for food, think about that for a second, they were hungry. That's why people pay a lot above the normal price for food, because they can't get any food at the normal price and they're starving. The beauty of supply and demand is that when that demand appears then people are incentivised to meet it and they get fed. Clearly the state supply of food here was inadequate for whatever reason. So, he failed to feed his people and then, when they attempted to feed themselves, he condemned their hunger based upon his ideology and used the army against them. This is the problem people have with the authoritarian left. They're assholes.
so you're the kind of people who believe that speculation as nothing to do with political motives? You're far worse than an authoritarian leftist so.
It's true that speculation has been a means for the aristocratic right wing to destabilize South American regimes. However, I'm note sure it's the case here.
It's a tool against a lot of things, absence of speculation even if money can be made (like against your debt) is pretty useful too. Thinking about supply and demand when lots of market decisions are political ones is just stupid, but hey dem promarket gotta stick with their idiot dogma.
Speculation is caused by both. By political reasons and by wrong government economic policies, the government declared some days ago that their policies were bad and had to be completely adjusted, they did it on chained-national television, that is, forcing all private channels to transmit the news, does that happend in a dictatorship though? Not even in so called democratic government does the government apologize like that on TV.
But that honestly that is not much of a problem for Venezuela right now, why would you guys even care to discuss that: Our problems are the rampant crime, corruption, lack of production in all fields even oil and the list goes on.
On March 06 2013 10:21 Nevermind86 wrote: Speculation is caused by both. By political reasons and by wrong government economic policies, the government declared some days ago that their policies were bad and had to be completely adjusted, they did it on chained-national television, that is, forcing all private channels to transmit the news, does that happend in a dictatorship though? Not even in so called democratic government does the government apologize like that on TV.
But that honestly that is not much of a problem for Venezuela right now, why would you guys even care to discuss that: Our problems are the rampant crime, corruption, lack of production in all fields even oil and the list goes on.
let's just hope you don't add a shacky political transition to the list.
On March 06 2013 10:21 Nevermind86 wrote: Speculation is caused by both. By political reasons and by wrong government economic policies, the government declared some days ago that their policies were bad and had to be completely adjusted, they did it on chained-national television, that is, forcing all private channels to transmit the news, does that happend in a dictatorship though? Not even in so called democratic government does the government apologize like that on TV.
But that honestly that is not much of a problem for Venezuela right now, why would you guys even care to discuss that: Our problems are the rampant crime, corruption, lack of production in all fields even oil and the list goes on.
let's just hope you don't add a shacky political transition to the list.
Not gonna happend, Maduro, his right hand man and friend of all the oil transnationals wins by a landslide. He was the chancellor of foreign affairs for a long time and because of that the key man in the negotiations with all the oil transnational that took part in the re-privatization of oil started in 2010, he is the man of both chinese and russian oil interests, the biggest investors of the country, he is also a very charismatic guy that has been with Chavez since forever, no way he losses. On top of all of that he's a jew and a lot of important businessmen in this country are jews, it's rumoured they are on pretty good terms and well they really are. To see if this is true you just need to see the numbers, in 2012, Venezuela gave through CADIVI, 56 $ billion oil-dollars at cheap prices to businessmen to buy stuff around the world and sell it at a fat profit, since you cannot buy dollars around here freely but only though that government agency CADIVI you have to be friends with these guys to get some money, obviously he will financed by all those business inerests for his campaing and it will be in only 30 days, people will still be very emotional about Chavez's death and so they will vote for Maduro, he's a nice guy and very smart too. I'll vote for him
On March 06 2013 09:55 Epocalypse wrote: It's always a victory for the world when a dictator dies.
Question: Would he have survived if he had access to American medicine?
I'm not sure, he recieved treatment in Brazil, I'm guessing they are good enough, but he was not a dictator, learn your facts.
No by no means he was a dictator. He ruled every Venezuelan as an equal and always treated others who did not followed his beliefs with upmost respect and consideration.
/s.
I'd like you to pin-point me the time and dates where he actually got treatment in Brazil and not in Cuba. He was recommended by a doctor to get treatment in MD Anderson in Houston, USA.
He also lied about he being "well recovered" when the time came for the 7 October elections, he was at the time still sick from the cancer and had to go through treatment to "fully recover". All in all, I do accept that you're a Chavez supporter, 'cause everyone is entitled to their own opinions, I did read your long post about how Chavez came to power, and you seem to be very influenced by his "speeches" and his attitude towards USA and all.
I hope the next few years in Venezuela are peaceful ones, I do hope we have a change of regiment and a change of political views, these "socialists" ruling right now (specially Maduro who has no real preparation AT ALL to be a President, you can quote me and re-quote me on this, he has no education level worthy of a President) aren't the best at all, and are just (IMO) ruining our country.
As with the CADIVI issue, well, I guess there are no goverment people making their way through the CADIVI system, and getting lots and lots of USD$ without making a single "folder", or are they? I don't think Rosines and others of his family/government have to ever worry about the 2500$ expense cap on the credit cards. lol gimme a break.
It's funny how he continuously vilified the United States as a menacing and toxic presence to Venezuela while at the same time allowing Chinese, Russian, Iranian and Cuban nationals to hold massive influence in resources and political capital. It's just so wrong how you can condemn one country's actions and harmful influence, while giving countries who don't give a damn about their people a lap dance.
Great politician, horrible leader to his country and people. I hope the people, not someone backed by the military and the remaining goons can raise a better man or woman.
Honestly to most of the citizens of the US he was just some guy who shouted about how bad we were constantly and outside of that didn't really impact the average person at all. For me its hard to know exactly just how good or bad he was as a casual observer. So much conflicting information being thrown around by people with a diverse set of agendas/perspectives. You would really have to do a fair amount of research yourself to be amply informed (most don't care or have the time to do this). All I can say is that I hope that moving forward Venezuela will see a just government who is making an effort to improve the country and reduce the "bad" elements so the quality of life of the people will improve.
But that honestly that is not much of a problem for Venezuela right now, why would you guys even care to discuss that: Our problems are the rampant crime, corruption, lack of production in all fields even oil and the list goes on.
State-owned enterprises being inefficient and prone to corruption? Never! Clearly capitalist pig-dog propaganda.
By political reasons and by wrong government economic policies, the government declared some days ago that their policies were bad and had to be completely adjusted, they did it on chained-national television, that is, forcing all private channels to transmit the news, does that happend in a dictatorship though? Not even in so called democratic government does the government apologize like that on TV.
I am hoping this is some subtle satire that is beyond my 'capitalism-poisoned' brain.
"Whoever signs against Chávez… their name will be there, registered for history, because they’ll have to put down their first name, their last name, their signature, their identity card number, and their fingerprint.”
Because publicizing people's names that sign in favor of recalls is not dictatorial at all. But I suppose quoting El Comandante's words must be misleading, somehow.
The power of criminals was greatly increased during his rule. For example, the murder rate in Venezuela tripled after he came into power. Additionally, his encouragement of the use of abandoned buildings by poor and homeless people led to the creation of many slums.
It sounds like his policies catered to impoverished people and criminals, enabling him to win elections and maintain control of the country.
I find it interesting (by badly-informed American celebrities and congressmen alike) the labeling of Chavez as a champion of the poor. To give one example - the government says that oil money has been used to eradicate illiteracy by hiring 200,000+ trainers- one might reason that this redistribution might not be such a bad idea right? Yet, looking at survey data, it seems that there is no way the claim of illiteracy going from 10% to <.1% could be true. In addition, even the more generous estimates of (cost / person who learned to read) peg the Venezuelan program as over 10 times more inefficient than comparable literacy programs. Oh, and there's no indication in employment data that said trainers were ever hired, or paid. I wonder where that money could have went?*
Such are the perils of taking a government's claims at face value (though this is a lesson that applies everywhere).
This is going to be an interesting change in government, that is for sure. Chavez has been in power for a while now, and has pretty much piggy backed on the idea of a united S.A. I wonder if that Simon Bolivar ideal dies with Chavez now or if his legacy continues on. The guy was an idealist, but not one to the core. I wonder where Venezuela goes from here.
On March 06 2013 10:21 Nevermind86 wrote: Speculation is caused by both. By political reasons and by wrong government economic policies, the government declared some days ago that their policies were bad and had to be completely adjusted, they did it on chained-national television, that is, forcing all private channels to transmit the news, does that happend in a dictatorship though? Not even in so called democratic government does the government apologize like that on TV.
But that honestly that is not much of a problem for Venezuela right now, why would you guys even care to discuss that: Our problems are the rampant crime, corruption, lack of production in all fields even oil and the list goes on.
let's just hope you don't add a shacky political transition to the list.
Not gonna happend, Maduro, his right hand man and friend of all the oil transnationals wins by a landslide. He was the chancellor of foreign affairs for a long time and because of that the key man in the negotiations with all the oil transnational that took part in the re-privatization of oil started in 2010, he is the man of both chinese and russian oil interests, the biggest investors of the country, he is also a very charismatic guy that has been with Chavez since forever, no way he losses. On top of all of that he's a jew and a lot of important businessmen in this country are jews, it's rumoured they are on pretty good terms and well they really are. To see if this is true you just need to see the numbers, in 2012, Venezuela gave through CADIVI, 56 $ billion oil-dollars at cheap prices to businessmen to buy stuff around the world and sell it at a fat profit, since you cannot buy dollars around here freely but only though that government agency CADIVI you have to be friends with these guys to get some money, obviously he will financed by all those business inerests for his campaing and it will be in only 30 days, people will still be very emotional about Chavez's death and so they will vote for Maduro, he's a nice guy and very smart too. I'll vote for him
This is funny i know Nevermind in real life, Hi Roberto btw. And there has to be some masochism by all chaviztas, everytime i has spoken to Nervermind he says govt. sucks yet somehow he says other goverments were worse but he is 26-27 years old. He didnt live in those goverments only this one.
His arm was almost severed because of lack of good medical system in Venezuelan hospitals, he had an accident and because the surgical area was so close to the morgue he got a really strong bacteria in the wound, he was almost amputee.
There were problems before but to name a few of the biggest problem in Venezuela right now.
We have the worst inflation around 21%-27% the last 2 years.
Our exchange currency is greatly overvalued, even with the current devaluation, it says Bs 6.3 = $ 1 USD. yet its all bullshit as it is controlled and if you travel you only get at MAXIMUM $3000 on credit card, $500 on cash and $400 for internet expenses, A YEAR. If you want more you have to go to the black market. With current price is 25 Bs. to $1 (minimum wage at black market rate is $82 MONTHLY).
Insecurity is our biggest problem, with killings on Caracas, the capital happening every day and we have had many problems with jails, where the "prans" order killings and kidnappings from inside the jails, yet goverment fails to act.
We never had energy problems as we have today, other goverments made the guri and several investment on the electrical systems, blackouts only used to happen ocasionally on small towns in places where it was hard to get energy on. Now it happens very often, in all cities but Caracas (because of the political cost).
And to top it all off we give other goverments money or free shit that they dont pay as they should, take for example Cuba, supposedly we give em 100.000 barrels/day and they give us cuban medics, lol just do the math and see how its a fucking rip off.
Maduro is not smart, his education is basically non existent, he was a "bus driver" nothing wrong on that but its not what a President Curriculum Vitae should look like. He is so fucking stupid that on devaluation he said "we are doing this to protect the Bolivar". Yeah fuck right, because devaluing 47% and not changing archaic system is the way to go...
There is no democracy in here its just a farse, separation of powers is non existent, everyone with a worth of salt KNOWS that there was a temporary absence of the president, yet it wasnt declared by the TSJ (supreme court), nor it was declared a medical joint board to see how his condition was.
All in all, the supporters of Chavez are just supporting it because they think it would be worst. But thats being fairly shortsighted and you need to REALLY somehow be able to accept all of this shitty goverment bad shit as somehow acceptable. which is not.
This is a lazy copy-pasta from my Facebook, some was in response to other posts but I just decided to bring it right across.
Did a lot of things that were on aggregate beneficial for many his citizens, while abusing the rights of certain others. Changed the constitution to eliminate term-limits and enable him to get back to power but DID enjoy popular support and as far as I'm aware didn't rig the elections. Did dismantle some of the media, which may have indirectly 'rigged' things though, but this isn't Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or Mugabe, or Putin who actively defrauded the voting system.
A paranoid stance towards the United States, but partly explicable paranoia because of the foreign policy of the United States.
His most problematic legacy imo is that he created a cult of personality that will make any kind of transition extremely problematic. Albeit his charisma was part of his political appeal, but any charismatic leader who dies without much of an exit strategy will create a power vacuum of some kind.
Accusations that he 'bribed' people into supporting him by *shock* investing in education and health are retarded. That's what governments SHOULD do, regardless of the rest of their structure, or what they do.
The United States and their apologists can go fuck with their piousness regarding the entire central/Southern American region, Castro, or Chavez. Their ridiculous and harmful 'war on drugs' has created many of the social problems in the region that they blame the incumbent governments for. Their meddling in the region's affairs to install sympathetic right-wing/laissez-faire capitalists or military regimes has had a devastating legacy to this day.
By all means, hate Chavez or whatever he stood for, but don't do so on 'humanitarian' or 'human-rights' grounds. The United States, and indeed the UK are no fucking angels in this department both historically and to this day.
On March 06 2013 09:52 Nevermind86 wrote: Being a Venezuelan, I'd like to explain shortly why we will always remenber him and what he meant to the country:
-His government was bad, crime is rampant, inflation, waste of resources, populism, all of it it's 100% true but the governments before were actually worse. He came to prominence as one of the heads of a coup d'etat in 1992 against a two-party system that served the same masters, the venezuelan economic powers, particularly the emerging nouveau rich bankers. Back then the country was comming out of a period similar to what the great depression was to the US because oil prices dropped to 7$, government debt was in a historic high, social spending was being dramatically cut and wages were dropped to the bottom, some 3 years before that, in february 27th 1989, FMI austerity measures were declared, that among other things increased the price of gasoline by 800%, the price of public buses went up accordingly and people that couldn't go to work rioted, the then pro-american government sent the army to the streets and around 3.000 were killed, of course the UN or any international body back then cared and nobody responsible went to jail. It was since then that the two party system was morally bankrupt, so Chávez's coup d'etat even though it was a failure got him on tv apologizing to the venezuelan people for doing it, people loved him since then because he admitted it was a mistake, after popular demand charges were dropped after 2 years in jail.
Then in 1993 a leftish presidential candidate that represented the people that supported Chavez won an election but electoral fraud was rampant and instead a well known extreme right winger took power, his government wasn't so bad until 1995 where banks were going bankrupt and he decided to bail them out, stimulus packet style but the banks still went bankrupt and another economic crisis started. Then in december 1998 Chavez wins the presidency with an actually pro-capitalist speech, he was a totally different kind of president back then and his popularity was huge, with time though, he started to change turning more and more leftish on the way, and being friendly with demonized people like Fidel Castro, but it wasn't until 2002 where he passed anti-latifundist, anti-bank monopoly (glass stegeal act-type) laws and an increase in taxes to foreign oil companies that the unrest that marked the rest of his government started, in 2002 a new right wing party with help from the CIA did a coup d'etat the next day after some people were killed in both pro and anti government protests, Chavez was kidnapped and forced to resign, all powers were dissolved and the president of Fedecamaras took oath as president, Fedecamaras being the biggest association of enterprises of the country. Too many bad things happened in those days, the army got videotapped practicing statements about doing the coup because people died on the streets before the first bullet was fired, the tv showed false videos blaming it on pro-Chavez crowds, the FMI approuved new loans to "rebuild the government from the Chavez regime" the same day the coup happened... it was all a joke. 2 days after the coup people were doing huge protests around the presidential palace demanding Chavez to be brought back, and he was, since then he radicalized his government. Then that same year, in chrismast, the same people that did the coup d'etat sabotaged the oil industry resulting in losses to the nation in the order of at least 20$ billions, scarcity in all products especially food pissed people off quite a lot, but this second attempt was even worse than the first because after 15 days the government re-started the oil production but politically the right wing took the blame of all the country's problems, to this day, basically.
After 2006 he became really power hungry since he won a second term destroying the opposition in the votings, nobody likes them to this day like I said before. In 2010 in the middle of a new economic crisis, this time created by the Chavez government and not due to the same old right wing people his popularity started to drop quite a lot, for the first time he got defeated in an election quite badly (Congress election) and things weren't looking good for his 'socialism', since then capitalism went back with a lot of strenght with a socialist speech of course, a lot of oil fields were privatized and oil companies from all over the world went back to the country to increase oil production, notably from the satanized US and Europe and the new allies Russia and China that were promoted as different types of capitalists because of their obvious backgrounds. That wasn't enough, so gold, iron, all sorts of minerals, etc, were given in a golden plate to other transnationals, even with this the economic recovery wasn't good enough, so in 2012 to win a third term Chavez started a huge policy of social spending, the thing is the government doesn't really have money to keep with this, so the only way to sustain this for a while was drowning in debt, the external debt increased quite a lot, and less than a month ago the currency had to be devaluated 46.5% to cheap the price of labour and debt in the local currency, so the government could keep the social spending with oil-dollars.
As you can see american friends, american intervention in coup d'etats usually goes wrong, if it wasn't for your CIA Chavez probably would have lost in the 2006 election because in 2002 his government wasn't doing good, but somehow warmongers in Venezuela and USA though that killing our people and putting a dictator in place was a great idea and that failed miserably, as if that wasn't enough they tried a second time that year sabotaging the oil industry, paralizing the country because there wasn't any gasoline to go around or gas to cook food, they though it was brilliant because people would blame that somehow on Chavez... obviously it was a huge mistake.
In case you wonder I did vote for Chavez all these years, i'm his supporter but his government was far from good, in comparison to the ones before, though, it was the best we had since 1956, back then we had a right wing dictator that wanted to do elections some day but as you guessed it, he was coup d'etaed with support of the CIA, so they could put a puppet in place. The venezuelan people always remenber that government as being the best of our history, and Chavez without a doubt the second best.
Very insightful! Quoted for visibility.
On March 06 2013 14:25 Swimcito wrote: Maduro is not smart, his education is basically non existent, he was a "bus driver" nothing wrong on that but its not what a President Curriculum Vitae should look like.
What about Lula? He was a simple worker, too. And Reagan was an actor.
A commentary in a swiss newspaper ended his article with: Chavez did much good for venezuela, but with the money he had he could and should have done much more.
That’s probably as close to "reality" as you can get whiteout really living there/seeing behind all of it.
The third richest man on the planet atm is a school dropout (iirc)... So, who cares if someone was a Bus driver? If he has the drive and ability to get that high in politics chances are high that he has his shit together .
On March 06 2013 09:52 Nevermind86 wrote: Being a Venezuelan, I'd like to explain shortly why we will always remenber him and what he meant to the country:
-His government was bad, crime is rampant, inflation, waste of resources, populism, all of it it's 100% true but the governments before were actually worse. He came to prominence as one of the heads of a coup d'etat in 1992 against a two-party system that served the same masters, the venezuelan economic powers, particularly the emerging nouveau rich bankers. Back then the country was comming out of a period similar to what the great depression was to the US because oil prices dropped to 7$, government debt was in a historic high, social spending was being dramatically cut and wages were dropped to the bottom, some 3 years before that, in february 27th 1989, FMI austerity measures were declared, that among other things increased the price of gasoline by 800%, the price of public buses went up accordingly and people that couldn't go to work rioted, the then pro-american government sent the army to the streets and around 3.000 were killed, of course the UN or any international body back then cared and nobody responsible went to jail. It was since then that the two party system was morally bankrupt, so Chávez's coup d'etat even though it was a failure got him on tv apologizing to the venezuelan people for doing it, people loved him since then because he admitted it was a mistake, after popular demand charges were dropped after 2 years in jail.
Then in 1993 a leftish presidential candidate that represented the people that supported Chavez won an election but electoral fraud was rampant and instead a well known extreme right winger took power, his government wasn't so bad until 1995 where banks were going bankrupt and he decided to bail them out, stimulus packet style but the banks still went bankrupt and another economic crisis started. Then in december 1998 Chavez wins the presidency with an actually pro-capitalist speech, he was a totally different kind of president back then and his popularity was huge, with time though, he started to change turning more and more leftish on the way, and being friendly with demonized people like Fidel Castro, but it wasn't until 2002 where he passed anti-latifundist, anti-bank monopoly (glass stegeal act-type) laws and an increase in taxes to foreign oil companies that the unrest that marked the rest of his government started, in 2002 a new right wing party with help from the CIA did a coup d'etat the next day after some people were killed in both pro and anti government protests, Chavez was kidnapped and forced to resign, all powers were dissolved and the president of Fedecamaras took oath as president, Fedecamaras being the biggest association of enterprises of the country. Too many bad things happened in those days, the army got videotapped practicing statements about doing the coup because people died on the streets before the first bullet was fired, the tv showed false videos blaming it on pro-Chavez crowds, the FMI approuved new loans to "rebuild the government from the Chavez regime" the same day the coup happened... it was all a joke. 2 days after the coup people were doing huge protests around the presidential palace demanding Chavez to be brought back, and he was, since then he radicalized his government. Then that same year, in chrismast, the same people that did the coup d'etat sabotaged the oil industry resulting in losses to the nation in the order of at least 20$ billions, scarcity in all products especially food pissed people off quite a lot, but this second attempt was even worse than the first because after 15 days the government re-started the oil production but politically the right wing took the blame of all the country's problems, to this day, basically.
After 2006 he became really power hungry since he won a second term destroying the opposition in the votings, nobody likes them to this day like I said before. In 2010 in the middle of a new economic crisis, this time created by the Chavez government and not due to the same old right wing people his popularity started to drop quite a lot, for the first time he got defeated in an election quite badly (Congress election) and things weren't looking good for his 'socialism', since then capitalism went back with a lot of strenght with a socialist speech of course, a lot of oil fields were privatized and oil companies from all over the world went back to the country to increase oil production, notably from the satanized US and Europe and the new allies Russia and China that were promoted as different types of capitalists because of their obvious backgrounds. That wasn't enough, so gold, iron, all sorts of minerals, etc, were given in a golden plate to other transnationals, even with this the economic recovery wasn't good enough, so in 2012 to win a third term Chavez started a huge policy of social spending, the thing is the government doesn't really have money to keep with this, so the only way to sustain this for a while was drowning in debt, the external debt increased quite a lot, and less than a month ago the currency had to be devaluated 46.5% to cheap the price of labour and debt in the local currency, so the government could keep the social spending with oil-dollars.
As you can see american friends, american intervention in coup d'etats usually goes wrong, if it wasn't for your CIA Chavez probably would have lost in the 2006 election because in 2002 his government wasn't doing good, but somehow warmongers in Venezuela and USA though that killing our people and putting a dictator in place was a great idea and that failed miserably, as if that wasn't enough they tried a second time that year sabotaging the oil industry, paralizing the country because there wasn't any gasoline to go around or gas to cook food, they though it was brilliant because people would blame that somehow on Chavez... obviously it was a huge mistake.
In case you wonder I did vote for Chavez all these years, i'm his supporter but his government was far from good, in comparison to the ones before, though, it was the best we had since 1956, back then we had a right wing dictator that wanted to do elections some day but as you guessed it, he was coup d'etaed with support of the CIA, so they could put a puppet in place. The venezuelan people always remenber that government as being the best of our history, and Chavez without a doubt the second best.
Great post, very informative for us non venezuelans.
Mad is this like the first president to die (who has been in power at the time) pre assassinations ? Oh wait, there was North Korean dictator too, he died in power.
On March 06 2013 22:32 CrimsonLotus wrote: Now that I think about it I remember hearing some random cheering on the streets around the time it was announced he had died.
ROFL, people really hated him here. Not entirely unjustified to be honest.
Some hate him, some love him. It's quite hard to remain neutral to such a hot figure.
On March 06 2013 07:12 Enki wrote: Not surprising I guess, he was really sick for awhile and I heard the last few surgeries were not successful. Dunno how I feel about this. Regardless of how he ran his county, he still had some balls to criticize the U.S constantly.
A little critisim never hurt , i don't know much about this guy , but dying of cancer sucks . Gl hf
On March 06 2013 07:06 Shiragaku wrote: I am glad you opposed US foreign policy, however, you used such a position to abuse power.
I hope this means socialism for Venezuela rather than anti-American capitalism. But regardless, this is bad news for Venezuela.
I now await the conspiracy theories surrounding his death.
Chavez himself said that he was being slowly poisoned and given cancer by foreign governments/powers. Would not surprise me if true, the planned coup of 2004 against chavez failed when his own people stormed the prison he was held in and released him putting him back in power, only option was killing him after that.
he was a champion for the poor, hated by capitalists and the rich, not the greatest friend to the middle class but he had Venezuela's interests at heart and nothing else. When you stand up to foreign powers you are demonized, just hope this isn't the beginning of a dark chapter for the country.
On March 06 2013 07:06 Shiragaku wrote: I am glad you opposed US foreign policy, however, you used such a position to abuse power.
I hope this means socialism for Venezuela rather than anti-American capitalism. But regardless, this is bad news for Venezuela.
I now await the conspiracy theories surrounding his death.
Chavez himself said that he was being slowly poisoned and given cancer by foreign governments/powers. Would not surprise me if true, the planned coup of 2004 against chavez failed when his own people stormed the prison he was held in and released him putting him back in power, only option was killing him after that.
he was a champion for the poor, hated by capitalists and the rich, not the greatest friend to the middle class but he had Venezuela's interests at heart and nothing else. When you stand up to foreign powers you are demonized, just hope this isn't the beginning of a dark chapter for the country.
RIP Hugo
I guess giving away a lot of money that was supposed to go into "moving forward" with the country, is having the best interests for the country. Yes?. No.
Rest in peace, Hugo Rafael Chávez Frías. As a Venezuelan, I didn't agree with most of your policies and politics, but I do not rejoice in your death and I do respect the pain of your family and supporters. In 1998, when you campaigned for the presidency -and promised to end corruption- despite my disappointment with the traditional parties, I did not support you because you had led a coup against president Carlos Andres Pérez. I didn't like Pérez, but he was elected by our people and attempting to overthrow him was proof that you did not respect the will of Venezuelans. I didn't oppose 100% of what you did. I was grateful, for example, that you placed the issue of poverty on the table and you put the spotlight on millions of Venezuelans that until then had been excluded. I knew that the Cuban doctors in the slums were unprepared and unequipped, but I understood that they meant the world to the mother that knocks on their door at 3am. I was also happy of the way most Venezuelans started to care about politics again (some because they supported you; others because they opposed you). The anti-politic feeling we saw in the 90's was precisely what got you elected. And I also kept in mind that a majority of Venezuelans did support you, so you certainly had a right to be in office.
On March 06 2013 23:18 Vinland wrote: Well, I´ll definitely miss his 3 hour speeches every time he came here, talking weird anecdotes, Bolivar´s adventures and antiimperialism.
The whole anti-bush act on Mar del Plata sure was fun.
A dictator died should i feel sad? No, not at all even if it means trouble for Venezuela for the next 10 yrs the madness must stop at one point. Civil rights and equality will rise sooner or later.
out of the subject : when i see Jean-Luc Mélanchon president of Le front de gauche making a tribute in name of all the french to Chavez it makes me puke. He didn't say anything about Stéphane Hessel never did our president but when a fake socialist dictator dies everybody speaks of him as a good man. I've always hated this old roting branch of socialism which still idolize communism, extreme socialism and these fake social and radical governments.
On March 06 2013 09:52 Nevermind86 wrote: Being a Venezuelan, I'd like to explain shortly why we will always remenber him and what he meant to the country:
-His government was bad, crime is rampant, inflation, waste of resources, populism, all of it it's 100% true but the governments before were actually worse. He came to prominence as one of the heads of a coup d'etat in 1992 against a two-party system that served the same masters, the venezuelan economic powers, particularly the emerging nouveau rich bankers. Back then the country was comming out of a period similar to what the great depression was to the US because oil prices dropped to 7$, government debt was in a historic high, social spending was being dramatically cut and wages were dropped to the bottom, some 3 years before that, in february 27th 1989, FMI austerity measures were declared, that among other things increased the price of gasoline by 800%, the price of public buses went up accordingly and people that couldn't go to work rioted, the then pro-american government sent the army to the streets and around 3.000 were killed, of course the UN or any international body back then cared and nobody responsible went to jail. It was since then that the two party system was morally bankrupt, so Chávez's coup d'etat even though it was a failure got him on tv apologizing to the venezuelan people for doing it, people loved him since then because he admitted it was a mistake, after popular demand charges were dropped after 2 years in jail.
Then in 1993 a leftish presidential candidate that represented the people that supported Chavez won an election but electoral fraud was rampant and instead a well known extreme right winger took power, his government wasn't so bad until 1995 where banks were going bankrupt and he decided to bail them out, stimulus packet style but the banks still went bankrupt and another economic crisis started. Then in december 1998 Chavez wins the presidency with an actually pro-capitalist speech, he was a totally different kind of president back then and his popularity was huge, with time though, he started to change turning more and more leftish on the way, and being friendly with demonized people like Fidel Castro, but it wasn't until 2002 where he passed anti-latifundist, anti-bank monopoly (glass stegeal act-type) laws and an increase in taxes to foreign oil companies that the unrest that marked the rest of his government started, in 2002 a new right wing party with help from the CIA did a coup d'etat the next day after some people were killed in both pro and anti government protests, Chavez was kidnapped and forced to resign, all powers were dissolved and the president of Fedecamaras took oath as president, Fedecamaras being the biggest association of enterprises of the country. Too many bad things happened in those days, the army got videotapped practicing statements about doing the coup because people died on the streets before the first bullet was fired, the tv showed false videos blaming it on pro-Chavez crowds, the FMI approuved new loans to "rebuild the government from the Chavez regime" the same day the coup happened... it was all a joke. 2 days after the coup people were doing huge protests around the presidential palace demanding Chavez to be brought back, and he was, since then he radicalized his government. Then that same year, in chrismast, the same people that did the coup d'etat sabotaged the oil industry resulting in losses to the nation in the order of at least 20$ billions, scarcity in all products especially food pissed people off quite a lot, but this second attempt was even worse than the first because after 15 days the government re-started the oil production but politically the right wing took the blame of all the country's problems, to this day, basically.
After 2006 he became really power hungry since he won a second term destroying the opposition in the votings, nobody likes them to this day like I said before. In 2010 in the middle of a new economic crisis, this time created by the Chavez government and not due to the same old right wing people his popularity started to drop quite a lot, for the first time he got defeated in an election quite badly (Congress election) and things weren't looking good for his 'socialism', since then capitalism went back with a lot of strenght with a socialist speech of course, a lot of oil fields were privatized and oil companies from all over the world went back to the country to increase oil production, notably from the satanized US and Europe and the new allies Russia and China that were promoted as different types of capitalists because of their obvious backgrounds. That wasn't enough, so gold, iron, all sorts of minerals, etc, were given in a golden plate to other transnationals, even with this the economic recovery wasn't good enough, so in 2012 to win a third term Chavez started a huge policy of social spending, the thing is the government doesn't really have money to keep with this, so the only way to sustain this for a while was drowning in debt, the external debt increased quite a lot, and less than a month ago the currency had to be devaluated 46.5% to cheap the price of labour and debt in the local currency, so the government could keep the social spending with oil-dollars.
As you can see american friends, american intervention in coup d'etats usually goes wrong, if it wasn't for your CIA Chavez probably would have lost in the 2006 election because in 2002 his government wasn't doing good, but somehow warmongers in Venezuela and USA though that killing our people and putting a dictator in place was a great idea and that failed miserably, as if that wasn't enough they tried a second time that year sabotaging the oil industry, paralizing the country because there wasn't any gasoline to go around or gas to cook food, they though it was brilliant because people would blame that somehow on Chavez... obviously it was a huge mistake.
In case you wonder I did vote for Chavez all these years, i'm his supporter but his government was far from good, in comparison to the ones before, though, it was the best we had since 1956, back then we had a right wing dictator that wanted to do elections some day but as you guessed it, he was coup d'etaed with support of the CIA, so they could put a puppet in place. The venezuelan people always remenber that government as being the best of our history, and Chavez without a doubt the second best.
Great post, very informative for us non venezuelans.
Great post indeed. Probably more informative than anything else I could have read on a newspaper
On March 07 2013 00:39 Acertos wrote: A dictator died should i feel sad? No, not at all even if it means trouble for Venezuela for the next 10 yrs the madness must stop at one point. Civil rights and equality will rise sooner or later.
out of the subject : when i see Jean-Luc Mélanchon president of Le front de gauche making a tribute in name of all the french to Chavez it makes me puke. He didn't say anything about Stéphane Hessel never did our president but when a fake socialist dictator dies everybody speaks of him as a good man. I've always hated this old roting branch of socialism which still idolize communism, extreme socialism and these fake social and radical governments.
What you write is 'slightly' contradicting in itself. especially: 'Civil rights and equality will rise sooner or later.' you seem to have no clue at all about venezuela if you think another president would have done more for civil rights and especially equality. Chavez was no saint, but he definately wasn't a mad dictator.
people shouldn't believe what they read about venezuela in main stream media. there is also another side of the story.
On March 07 2013 00:39 Acertos wrote: A dictator died should i feel sad? No, not at all even if it means trouble for Venezuela for the next 10 yrs the madness must stop at one point. Civil rights and equality will rise sooner or later.
out of the subject : when i see Jean-Luc Mélanchon president of Le front de gauche making a tribute in name of all the french to Chavez it makes me puke. He didn't say anything about Stéphane Hessel never did our president but when a fake socialist dictator dies everybody speaks of him as a good man. I've always hated this old roting branch of socialism which still idolize communism, extreme socialism and these fake social and radical governments.
What you write is 'slightly' contradicting in itself. especially: 'Civil rights and equality will rise sooner or later.' you seem to have no clue at all about venezuela if you think another president would have done more for civil rights and especially equality. Chavez was no saint, but he definately wasn't a mad dictator.
people shouldn't believe what they read about venezuela in main stream media. there is also another side of the story.
great insight post by Nevermind86 btw.
And you are just linking to pages which are in favour of Chavez. Makes the same sense as your statement above. Still, it's good to read stuff on both sides.
Did he really think that he was being slowly poisoned? I don't even think the US government cares enough about him or his country to do that (not that they wouldn't but really? The US has 10000x bigger things to worry about).
On March 07 2013 01:51 Slaughter wrote: Did he really think that he was being slowly poisoned? I don't even think the US government cares enough about him or his country to do that (not that they wouldn't but really? The US has 10000x bigger things to worry about).
What, a potential oil supplier with the biggest reserves in the world as of 2013, a rock in the way of the FTAA, one of the only allies Iran has and a troublemaker in a continent considered to be the US' backyard?
On March 06 2013 09:52 Nevermind86 wrote: Being a Venezuelan, I'd like to explain shortly why we will always remenber him and what he meant to the country:
-His government was bad, crime is rampant, inflation, waste of resources, populism, all of it it's 100% true but the governments before were actually worse. He came to prominence as one of the heads of a coup d'etat in 1992 against a two-party system that served the same masters, the venezuelan economic powers, particularly the emerging nouveau rich bankers. Back then the country was comming out of a period similar to what the great depression was to the US because oil prices dropped to 7$, government debt was in a historic high, social spending was being dramatically cut and wages were dropped to the bottom, some 3 years before that, in february 27th 1989, FMI austerity measures were declared, that among other things increased the price of gasoline by 800%, the price of public buses went up accordingly and people that couldn't go to work rioted, the then pro-american government sent the army to the streets and around 3.000 were killed, of course the UN or any international body back then cared and nobody responsible went to jail. It was since then that the two party system was morally bankrupt, so Chávez's coup d'etat even though it was a failure got him on tv apologizing to the venezuelan people for doing it, people loved him since then because he admitted it was a mistake, after popular demand charges were dropped after 2 years in jail.
Then in 1993 a leftish presidential candidate that represented the people that supported Chavez won an election but electoral fraud was rampant and instead a well known extreme right winger took power, his government wasn't so bad until 1995 where banks were going bankrupt and he decided to bail them out, stimulus packet style but the banks still went bankrupt and another economic crisis started. Then in december 1998 Chavez wins the presidency with an actually pro-capitalist speech, he was a totally different kind of president back then and his popularity was huge, with time though, he started to change turning more and more leftish on the way, and being friendly with demonized people like Fidel Castro, but it wasn't until 2002 where he passed anti-latifundist, anti-bank monopoly (glass stegeal act-type) laws and an increase in taxes to foreign oil companies that the unrest that marked the rest of his government started, in 2002 a new right wing party with help from the CIA did a coup d'etat the next day after some people were killed in both pro and anti government protests, Chavez was kidnapped and forced to resign, all powers were dissolved and the president of Fedecamaras took oath as president, Fedecamaras being the biggest association of enterprises of the country. Too many bad things happened in those days, the army got videotapped practicing statements about doing the coup because people died on the streets before the first bullet was fired, the tv showed false videos blaming it on pro-Chavez crowds, the FMI approuved new loans to "rebuild the government from the Chavez regime" the same day the coup happened... it was all a joke. 2 days after the coup people were doing huge protests around the presidential palace demanding Chavez to be brought back, and he was, since then he radicalized his government. Then that same year, in chrismast, the same people that did the coup d'etat sabotaged the oil industry resulting in losses to the nation in the order of at least 20$ billions, scarcity in all products especially food pissed people off quite a lot, but this second attempt was even worse than the first because after 15 days the government re-started the oil production but politically the right wing took the blame of all the country's problems, to this day, basically.
After 2006 he became really power hungry since he won a second term destroying the opposition in the votings, nobody likes them to this day like I said before. In 2010 in the middle of a new economic crisis, this time created by the Chavez government and not due to the same old right wing people his popularity started to drop quite a lot, for the first time he got defeated in an election quite badly (Congress election) and things weren't looking good for his 'socialism', since then capitalism went back with a lot of strenght with a socialist speech of course, a lot of oil fields were privatized and oil companies from all over the world went back to the country to increase oil production, notably from the satanized US and Europe and the new allies Russia and China that were promoted as different types of capitalists because of their obvious backgrounds. That wasn't enough, so gold, iron, all sorts of minerals, etc, were given in a golden plate to other transnationals, even with this the economic recovery wasn't good enough, so in 2012 to win a third term Chavez started a huge policy of social spending, the thing is the government doesn't really have money to keep with this, so the only way to sustain this for a while was drowning in debt, the external debt increased quite a lot, and less than a month ago the currency had to be devaluated 46.5% to cheap the price of labour and debt in the local currency, so the government could keep the social spending with oil-dollars.
As you can see american friends, american intervention in coup d'etats usually goes wrong, if it wasn't for your CIA Chavez probably would have lost in the 2006 election because in 2002 his government wasn't doing good, but somehow warmongers in Venezuela and USA though that killing our people and putting a dictator in place was a great idea and that failed miserably, as if that wasn't enough they tried a second time that year sabotaging the oil industry, paralizing the country because there wasn't any gasoline to go around or gas to cook food, they though it was brilliant because people would blame that somehow on Chavez... obviously it was a huge mistake.
In case you wonder I did vote for Chavez all these years, i'm his supporter but his government was far from good, in comparison to the ones before, though, it was the best we had since 1956, back then we had a right wing dictator that wanted to do elections some day but as you guessed it, he was coup d'etaed with support of the CIA, so they could put a puppet in place. The venezuelan people always remenber that government as being the best of our history, and Chavez without a doubt the second best.
On March 06 2013 10:21 Nevermind86 wrote: Speculation is caused by both. By political reasons and by wrong government economic policies, the government declared some days ago that their policies were bad and had to be completely adjusted, they did it on chained-national television, that is, forcing all private channels to transmit the news, does that happend in a dictatorship though? Not even in so called democratic government does the government apologize like that on TV.
But that honestly that is not much of a problem for Venezuela right now, why would you guys even care to discuss that: Our problems are the rampant crime, corruption, lack of production in all fields even oil and the list goes on.
let's just hope you don't add a shacky political transition to the list.
Not gonna happend, Maduro, his right hand man and friend of all the oil transnationals wins by a landslide. He was the chancellor of foreign affairs for a long time and because of that the key man in the negotiations with all the oil transnational that took part in the re-privatization of oil started in 2010, he is the man of both chinese and russian oil interests, the biggest investors of the country, he is also a very charismatic guy that has been with Chavez since forever, no way he losses. On top of all of that he's a jew and a lot of important businessmen in this country are jews, it's rumoured they are on pretty good terms and well they really are. To see if this is true you just need to see the numbers, in 2012, Venezuela gave through CADIVI, 56 $ billion oil-dollars at cheap prices to businessmen to buy stuff around the world and sell it at a fat profit, since you cannot buy dollars around here freely but only though that government agency CADIVI you have to be friends with these guys to get some money, obviously he will financed by all those business inerests for his campaing and it will be in only 30 days, people will still be very emotional about Chavez's death and so they will vote for Maduro, he's a nice guy and very smart too. I'll vote for him
So he is friends with Chavez, he is charismatic, he is a jew, he is influential, he is smart. But what's nice about him exactly?
On March 07 2013 01:51 Slaughter wrote: Did he really think that he was being slowly poisoned? I don't even think the US government cares enough about him or his country to do that (not that they wouldn't but really? The US has 10000x bigger things to worry about).
What, a potential oil supplier with the biggest reserves in the world as of 2013, a rock in the way of the FTAA, one of the only allies Iran has and a troublemaker in a continent considered to be the US' backyard?
Venezuela is a pretty big problem, you know.
The US is fine with its oil supply. Sure it probably would like to have access to it but they aren't going to put that much effort into it when they are dealing with the Mid East as #1.
On March 07 2013 00:39 Acertos wrote: A dictator died should i feel sad? No, not at all even if it means trouble for Venezuela for the next 10 yrs the madness must stop at one point. Civil rights and equality will rise sooner or later.
out of the subject : when i see Jean-Luc Mélanchon president of Le front de gauche making a tribute in name of all the french to Chavez it makes me puke. He didn't say anything about Stéphane Hessel never did our president but when a fake socialist dictator dies everybody speaks of him as a good man. I've always hated this old roting branch of socialism which still idolize communism, extreme socialism and these fake social and radical governments.
What you write is 'slightly' contradicting in itself. especially: 'Civil rights and equality will rise sooner or later.' you seem to have no clue at all about venezuela if you think another president would have done more for civil rights and especially equality. Chavez was no saint, but he definately wasn't a mad dictator.
people shouldn't believe what they read about venezuela in main stream media. there is also another side of the story.
great insight post by Nevermind86 btw.
Jjust because he was better than could have been others doesnt mean he must be put on a throne, he's still a dictator who shut every oponent to any of his decisions and manipulated the opinion. I'm believing that with the fall of Chavez perhaps venezuelians will ask for better governments in the future. And even if it takes a lot of time there will be a time for real democracy and a sort of equality. Look at Egypt (and the arabic spring in general), they threw Moubarak out and it was the beginning, now they have islamists in power but there are still riots everywhere and i'm sure the "brothers muslim" will fall too as they have no clue how to lead the country and try to lock people's freedom. In 5 yrs Egypt will surely have a government who care about something else than religious matter and try to stop poverty. It will also happen to Venezuela with the fall of chavez as its beginning.
On March 06 2013 08:16 CoR wrote: r.i.p. one of the last big who hold against usa in worldbankeconomystuff and if you could say 1 thing about him, he was 100% NO puppet !
No puppet? Haha, that's a good one. You might call him Castro's puppet. He always did what they told him to do, and they were part of all this "scheme" to keep his death secret and have Maduro on the power as long as possible.
Blah.
Not to mention that he gladly brought in Chinese imperialist influence in South America. For example, he allowed 40 percent of the Venezuelan railroads to be privatized by China.
"He allowed 40 percent of the Venezuelan railroads to be privatized by USA." That would be ok?
We can debate whether it is okay or not, my point is that he is unbelievably hypocritical and is obsessed with anti-Americanism and anti-NATO. We are talking about a self-proclaimed socialist and Maoist on one occasion who allows foreign privatization.
Also to give a direct answer, I think it would be horrible if the railroads were privatized by any nation.
*Sigh* This man is worse than George Galloway.
No one is worse than George Galloway.
EDIT 2: thank you for this post:
On March 06 2013 09:52 Nevermind86 wrote: Being a Venezuelan, I'd like to explain shortly why we will always remenber him and what he meant to the country:
-His government was bad, crime is rampant, inflation, waste of resources, populism, all of it it's 100% true but the governments before were actually worse. He came to prominence as one of the heads of a coup d'etat in 1992 against a two-party system that served the same masters, the venezuelan economic powers, particularly the emerging nouveau rich bankers. Back then the country was comming out of a period similar to what the great depression was to the US because oil prices dropped to 7$, government debt was in a historic high, social spending was being dramatically cut and wages were dropped to the bottom, some 3 years before that, in february 27th 1989, FMI austerity measures were declared, that among other things increased the price of gasoline by 800%, the price of public buses went up accordingly and people that couldn't go to work rioted, the then pro-american government sent the army to the streets and around 3.000 were killed, of course the UN or any international body back then cared and nobody responsible went to jail. It was since then that the two party system was morally bankrupt, so Chávez's coup d'etat even though it was a failure got him on tv apologizing to the venezuelan people for doing it, people loved him since then because he admitted it was a mistake, after popular demand charges were dropped after 2 years in jail.
Then in 1993 a leftish presidential candidate that represented the people that supported Chavez won an election but electoral fraud was rampant and instead a well known extreme right winger took power, his government wasn't so bad until 1995 where banks were going bankrupt and he decided to bail them out, stimulus packet style but the banks still went bankrupt and another economic crisis started. Then in december 1998 Chavez wins the presidency with an actually pro-capitalist speech, he was a totally different kind of president back then and his popularity was huge, with time though, he started to change turning more and more leftish on the way, and being friendly with demonized people like Fidel Castro, but it wasn't until 2002 where he passed anti-latifundist, anti-bank monopoly (glass stegeal act-type) laws and an increase in taxes to foreign oil companies that the unrest that marked the rest of his government started, in 2002 a new right wing party with help from the CIA did a coup d'etat the next day after some people were killed in both pro and anti government protests, Chavez was kidnapped and forced to resign, all powers were dissolved and the president of Fedecamaras took oath as president, Fedecamaras being the biggest association of enterprises of the country. Too many bad things happened in those days, the army got videotapped practicing statements about doing the coup because people died on the streets before the first bullet was fired, the tv showed false videos blaming it on pro-Chavez crowds, the FMI approuved new loans to "rebuild the government from the Chavez regime" the same day the coup happened... it was all a joke. 2 days after the coup people were doing huge protests around the presidential palace demanding Chavez to be brought back, and he was, since then he radicalized his government. Then that same year, in chrismast, the same people that did the coup d'etat sabotaged the oil industry resulting in losses to the nation in the order of at least 20$ billions, scarcity in all products especially food pissed people off quite a lot, but this second attempt was even worse than the first because after 15 days the government re-started the oil production but politically the right wing took the blame of all the country's problems, to this day, basically.
After 2006 he became really power hungry since he won a second term destroying the opposition in the votings, nobody likes them to this day like I said before. In 2010 in the middle of a new economic crisis, this time created by the Chavez government and not due to the same old right wing people his popularity started to drop quite a lot, for the first time he got defeated in an election quite badly (Congress election) and things weren't looking good for his 'socialism', since then capitalism went back with a lot of strenght with a socialist speech of course, a lot of oil fields were privatized and oil companies from all over the world went back to the country to increase oil production, notably from the satanized US and Europe and the new allies Russia and China that were promoted as different types of capitalists because of their obvious backgrounds. That wasn't enough, so gold, iron, all sorts of minerals, etc, were given in a golden plate to other transnationals, even with this the economic recovery wasn't good enough, so in 2012 to win a third term Chavez started a huge policy of social spending, the thing is the government doesn't really have money to keep with this, so the only way to sustain this for a while was drowning in debt, the external debt increased quite a lot, and less than a month ago the currency had to be devaluated 46.5% to cheap the price of labour and debt in the local currency, so the government could keep the social spending with oil-dollars.
As you can see american friends, american intervention in coup d'etats usually goes wrong, if it wasn't for your CIA Chavez probably would have lost in the 2006 election because in 2002 his government wasn't doing good, but somehow warmongers in Venezuela and USA though that killing our people and putting a dictator in place was a great idea and that failed miserably, as if that wasn't enough they tried a second time that year sabotaging the oil industry, paralizing the country because there wasn't any gasoline to go around or gas to cook food, they though it was brilliant because people would blame that somehow on Chavez... obviously it was a huge mistake.
In case you wonder I did vote for Chavez all these years, i'm his supporter but his government was far from good, in comparison to the ones before, though, it was the best we had since 1956, back then we had a right wing dictator that wanted to do elections some day but as you guessed it, he was coup d'etaed with support of the CIA, so they could put a puppet in place. The venezuelan people always remenber that government as being the best of our history, and Chavez without a doubt the second best.
On March 07 2013 01:51 Slaughter wrote: Did he really think that he was being slowly poisoned? I don't even think the US government cares enough about him or his country to do that (not that they wouldn't but really? The US has 10000x bigger things to worry about).
What, a potential oil supplier with the biggest reserves in the world as of 2013, a rock in the way of the FTAA, one of the only allies Iran has and a troublemaker in a continent considered to be the US' backyard?
Venezuela is a pretty big problem, you know.
The US is fine with its oil supply. Sure it probably would like to have access to it but they aren't going to put that much effort into it when they are dealing with the Mid East as #1.
I'm with this guy.
The US gets more oil from Canada than Venezuela or the ME. They would get even more oil from Canada if Keystone XL gets approved. Oil supply is not high on US' concern. North Dakota is forecasting to surpass Alaska for oil production. There is even talk that US can become an exporter if it realizes all its shale resources.
Venezuela's oil is heavy oil so the refineries that take on Venezuelan oil could take Canadian oil. I have family in Venezuela so I am impartial to this. In Canada a lot of Venezuelans have came here to work due to their expertise of heavy oil. I think that speaks to quality of life in Venezuela - although I have family who decided to stay in Venezuela (home is home?). In terms of stability I think the people of Venezuela will have power to choose their next leader. Look at previous dictator countries that took matter into their own hands. Syria, Libya, Egypt. I'm not a political science or history major so what do I know....
On March 07 2013 04:17 Banff wrote: I'm with this guy.
The US gets more oil from Canada than Venezuela or the ME. They would get even more oil from Canada if Keystone XL gets approved. Oil supply is not high on US' concern. North Dakota is forecasting to surpass Alaska for oil production. There is even talk that US can become an exporter if it realizes all its shale resources.
Venezuela's oil is heavy oil so the refineries that take on Venezuelan oil could take Canadian oil. I have family in Venezuela so I am impartial to this. In Canada a lot of Venezuelans have came here to work due to their expertise of heavy oil. I think that speaks to quality of life in Venezuela - although I have family who decided to stay in Venezuela (home is home?). In terms of stability I think the people of Venezuela will have power to choose their next leader. Look at previous dictator countries that took matter into their own hands. Syria, Libya, Egypt. I'm not a political science or history major so what do I know....
If you look at oil imports from Venezuela, you'll note that they have decreased since 1998, when the developments you speak of only date from 2012. The US (whos demand just keeps on growing) was under a lot of pressure, and I read that many American refineries invested a lot in crude oil equipment and so the demand for Venezuelan oil will remain steady for a while.
But it is true that oil no longer is such a big concern. In fact it's a concern for Venezuela, as prices may drop. However, it's sill a thorn in South American diplomacy.
What is interesting though is that African countries who used to export their oil to US companies will be left with no other choice but to turn completely to China, which is in desperate need for energy. It's a Chinese victory too, in a way, since it's on step more inside these countries. And they can even plan on using Venezuelan ressources more extensively in the future!
It's not surprised that the poverty situation has improved after Hugo took office, with his social policy and the rise of black gold, that is why he was a popular president. However the economy of Venezuela did not improved (If you exclude the black gold), and it was only matter of time things dive for the worse again.
funny how people sometimes blinded by hatred for the U.S. is able to see Nevermind's post, yet somehow arent able to see mine, which i detailed why Chavez Govt. sucks.
Nevermind is pro Chavez
I am Anti Chavez
There is 2 sides of the coin and Venezuela is extremely divided because of it.
On March 07 2013 07:23 Swimcito wrote: funny how people sometimes blinded by hatred for the U.S. is able to see Nevermind's post, yet somehow arent able to see mine, which i detailed why Chavez Govt. sucks.
i think you are overestimating your post, pal! i didn't comment on it because i thought it wasn't so good that it was worthy of my praise, in fact i thought it was a rather poor post, but i did read it.
On March 07 2013 07:23 Swimcito wrote: funny how people sometimes blinded by hatred for the U.S. is able to see Nevermind's post, yet somehow arent able to see mine, which i detailed why Chavez Govt. sucks.
Nevermind is pro Chavez
I am Anti Chavez
There is 2 sides of the coin and Venezuela is extremely divided because of it.
Because you post is terribad. :p
Your arguments are based on a deterioration of the level of life, when Chavez has fought poverty like mint toothpaste fights cats. Just look at the numbers. My guess is that you're middle class and that you don't really give a damn about those who couldn't affort medical care and who can now, and that you're more concerned with middle-class stuff. It's okay, but the majority of the Venezuelan population is, well, poor.
You then argue that the new prez doesn't have the required education, but he has the same backround as Lula, and there are many other "unusual" presidential candidates - like I said, Reagan was an actor, and yet he is the US' favourite president.
I mean, there are many, many, many arguments against Chavez, the country has basically no future and simply stands on its oil revenue, which is bound to decrease shortly, the economy is non-existent, etc. In my eyes you're invocating the wrong reasons, and while Nevermined tried to be at least somewhat objective, you're simply speaking with your heart.
On March 07 2013 07:23 Swimcito wrote: funny how people sometimes blinded by hatred for the U.S. is able to see Nevermind's post, yet somehow arent able to see mine, which i detailed why Chavez Govt. sucks.
Nevermind is pro Chavez
I am Anti Chavez
There is 2 sides of the coin and Venezuela is extremely divided because of it.
Because you post is terribad. :p
Your arguments are based on a deterioration of the level of life, when Chavez has fought poverty like mint toothpaste fights cats. Just look at the numbers. My guess is that you're middle class and that you don't really give a damn about those who couldn't affort medical care and who can now, and that you're more concerned with middle-class stuff. It's okay, but the majority of the Venezuelan population is, well, poor.
You then argue that the new prez doesn't have the required education, but he has the same backround as Lula, and there are many other "unusual" presidential candidates - like I said, Reagan was an actor, and yet he is the US' favourite president.
I mean, there are many, many, many arguments against Chavez, the country has basically no future and simply stands on its oil revenue, which is bound to decrease shortly, the economy is non-existent, etc. In my eyes you're invocating the wrong reasons, and while Nevermined tried to be at least somewhat objective, you're simply speaking with your heart.
Is energy crisis a middle class problem !?, or does it affects all aspects of society??
Is insecurity a middle class problem?, on the contrary poor people is even more affected in "the barrios" where criminals are basically warlords. In Chacao, Baruta, and high class municipalities, crime rates are way lower.
Is inflation a middle class problem??, on the contrary, the poor is affected more and more with it. Whereas the rich just get US dollars or other hard currency to protect themselfes from inflation and devaluations.
Im middle-upper middle class, but i am so because i studied, im a systems engineer, currently a Java developer, chavez era has breed too many entitled people that want everything fucking handled to them.
I know Nevermind personally, he is educated, he is a lawyer, he isnt poor, and his experiences with goverment institutions have been crap. Like i said, he almost lost an arm in a public hospital. Yet somehow he is still a chavizta out of just fear that what may come may be worse. And as the other guy said, somehow the fact that chavez is/was (although this is subjective), better than other goverments doesnt mean he is good all this praising and bullshit needs to stop.
Some people has been even saying he is better than bolivar and that he needs to be in the national pantheom, thanks god constitution says it needs to pass 25 years since death to be in there.
You see there is now some kind of "cult" developing around Chavez, Maduro and its supporters are doing it because the guy is not charismatic and contrary to what you and nevermind think, He is fucking stupid. He doesnt even know how to talk. And he knows that, so he is just triying to get elected because of Chavez Parachute, not by his own perks.
On March 07 2013 07:23 Swimcito wrote: funny how people sometimes blinded by hatred for the U.S. is able to see Nevermind's post, yet somehow arent able to see mine, which i detailed why Chavez Govt. sucks.
Nevermind is pro Chavez
I am Anti Chavez
There is 2 sides of the coin and Venezuela is extremely divided because of it.
Because you post is terribad. :p
Your arguments are based on a deterioration of the level of life, when Chavez has fought poverty like mint toothpaste fights cats. Just look at the numbers. My guess is that you're middle class and that you don't really give a damn about those who couldn't affort medical care and who can now, and that you're more concerned with middle-class stuff. It's okay, but the majority of the Venezuelan population is, well, poor.
You then argue that the new prez doesn't have the required education, but he has the same backround as Lula, and there are many other "unusual" presidential candidates - like I said, Reagan was an actor, and yet he is the US' favourite president.
I mean, there are many, many, many arguments against Chavez, the country has basically no future and simply stands on its oil revenue, which is bound to decrease shortly, the economy is non-existent, etc. In my eyes you're invocating the wrong reasons, and while Nevermined tried to be at least somewhat objective, you're simply speaking with your heart.
Also the whole pre chavez vs post chavez is being waaay too over simplified, when there are too many reasons for why things were the way they were and why things are the way they are now.
For Starters, Oil prices werent as high, somehow chavez has said that oil prices have been up because of him and thats just false, its because Sept. 11 and the whole War. Not Chavez.
There is so much you can do with oil at $100+, not much you can do with $12 (pre 1998)
Hell, in 2009 when oil got near end of the year close to $38, 2010 we got a 5% GDP Contraction.
So all this shit about Chavez being good is just bullshit, he was just lucky to be honest to be president in the best era to have been president
On March 06 2013 07:14 tshi wrote: I hope the next president is a bit more peaceful and works better with America/The world.
I hope just the opposite!
And why would you ever hope that?
I don't know why, but if I had to take a guess, it would probably have to do with the fact that the US is history's greatest empire, with extreme hegemony and influence over many countries in the world, especially your own. There is no balance, and especially not total balance. I guess he doesn't want Venezuela to be another US pawn. :S Then again, we know how countries like that end up, especially if it's in one the world's most important strategic regions (Iraq 1991-2012).
Nah, the British empire at its height was a far greater beast. A very good book on the failing of Americas empire is Incoherent Empire by Michael Mann:
After World War 2, imperialism evolved from territorial to hegemonic, like the old Assyrian style. The US dominates most of Europe (esp. after Cold War), parts of the Far East, parts of the Mideast, much of South America, all of North America, Australia, any country in Africa desperate enough for money that it allows itself to be completely exploited (and there's lots of those), and even parts of Antarctica (lol).
The British didn't have that. Not even the USSR came close.
If you want to see what actual hegemony is, study the British empire, America can hardly control its neighbors or influenced states trading patterns. When Canada is not satisfied with how much oil America is buying we simply turn around an offer it to China. When China wasn't satisfied with British opium flowing into its borders they tried to stop that but failed, badly. America doesn't have the economic means to influence world trade to anywhere near the degree the British empire did. You say oh look at the Iran sanctions that is economic control, I say look at the very American companies that broke the sanctions to continue doing business with Iran. The American government hardly has the ability to control its own corporations. If you actually read the book it would give you a good idea why America is a failing empire.
American corporatism alone practically runs 3rd world countries. You're right, the US govt. doesn't have a lot of power over US corporations because US corporations are ungodly powerful, so powerful that they are a huge factor in American Imperialism and one of the main reasons why the US dominates a good chunk of the world. The US government is responsible for the political side of our imperialism. To give one example, between the end of WW2 and the Soviet collapse alone, the USA has come to essentially dominate Europe, except for Russia and a couple other countries. Rarely does an imperial power come to dominate other advanced nations, but the US practically holds hegemony over the whole developed world.
On March 06 2013 07:14 tshi wrote: I hope the next president is a bit more peaceful and works better with America/The world.
I hope just the opposite!
And why would you ever hope that?
I don't know why, but if I had to take a guess, it would probably have to do with the fact that the US is history's greatest empire, with extreme hegemony and influence over many countries in the world, especially your own. There is no balance, and especially not total balance. I guess he doesn't want Venezuela to be another US pawn. :S Then again, we know how countries like that end up, especially if it's in one the world's most important strategic regions (Iraq 1991-2012).
Nah, the British empire at its height was a far greater beast. A very good book on the failing of Americas empire is Incoherent Empire by Michael Mann:
After World War 2, imperialism evolved from territorial to hegemonic, like the old Assyrian style. The US dominates most of Europe (esp. after Cold War), parts of the Far East, parts of the Mideast, much of South America, all of North America, Australia, any country in Africa desperate enough for money that it allows itself to be completely exploited (and there's lots of those), and even parts of Antarctica (lol).
The British didn't have that. Not even the USSR came close.
It's the same damn empire.
Britain is not the USA. I don't see what you're getting at.
On March 07 2013 00:39 Acertos wrote: A dictator died should i feel sad? No, not at all even if it means trouble for Venezuela for the next 10 yrs the madness must stop at one point. Civil rights and equality will rise sooner or later.
out of the subject : when i see Jean-Luc Mélanchon president of Le front de gauche making a tribute in name of all the french to Chavez it makes me puke. He didn't say anything about Stéphane Hessel never did our president but when a fake socialist dictator dies everybody speaks of him as a good man. I've always hated this old roting branch of socialism which still idolize communism, extreme socialism and these fake social and radical governments.
What you write is 'slightly' contradicting in itself. especially: 'Civil rights and equality will rise sooner or later.' you seem to have no clue at all about venezuela if you think another president would have done more for civil rights and especially equality. Chavez was no saint, but he definately wasn't a mad dictator.
people shouldn't believe what they read about venezuela in main stream media. there is also another side of the story.
great insight post by Nevermind86 btw.
Jjust because he was better than could have been others doesnt mean he must be put on a throne, he's still a dictator who shut every oponent to any of his decisions and manipulated the opinion. I'm believing that with the fall of Chavez perhaps venezuelians will ask for better governments in the future. And even if it takes a lot of time there will be a time for real democracy and a sort of equality. Look at Egypt (and the arabic spring in general), they threw Moubarak out and it was the beginning, now they have islamists in power but there are still riots everywhere and i'm sure the "brothers muslim" will fall too as they have no clue how to lead the country and try to lock people's freedom. In 5 yrs Egypt will surely have a government who care about something else than religious matter and try to stop poverty. It will also happen to Venezuela with the fall of chavez as its beginning.
in which world exactly are you living? looks like a fairy tale dream land.
i don't think egypt will have a government without a religious party in 5 years at all. what makes you believe they will? they threw out moubarak and how did the situation of the people improve?
if you look at venezuela chavez has done more for the poor people in his country then any other president in the last 50 years. the country will now probably get another US friendly dictator that gives a shit about the poor and caters to the oil industry. just as it was before chavez. and it was not 'better' for sure.
Rest in peace - I wish for the Venezuelan's to manage to keep their oil, gold, income/social equality, medical care and free education he fought so hard to give them, for many years and not to become another brick in the modern imperialism's wall.
These have been lost years for the Venezuelan economy. An incompetent (to put it mildly) crazy-guy buying poor people's votes by keeping them poor. He leaves the country with a massive debt relative to other oil nations. Good job.
On March 07 2013 00:39 Acertos wrote: A dictator died should i feel sad? No, not at all even if it means trouble for Venezuela for the next 10 yrs the madness must stop at one point. Civil rights and equality will rise sooner or later.
out of the subject : when i see Jean-Luc Mélanchon president of Le front de gauche making a tribute in name of all the french to Chavez it makes me puke. He didn't say anything about Stéphane Hessel never did our president but when a fake socialist dictator dies everybody speaks of him as a good man. I've always hated this old roting branch of socialism which still idolize communism, extreme socialism and these fake social and radical governments.
What you write is 'slightly' contradicting in itself. especially: 'Civil rights and equality will rise sooner or later.' you seem to have no clue at all about venezuela if you think another president would have done more for civil rights and especially equality. Chavez was no saint, but he definately wasn't a mad dictator.
people shouldn't believe what they read about venezuela in main stream media. there is also another side of the story.
great insight post by Nevermind86 btw.
Jjust because he was better than could have been others doesnt mean he must be put on a throne, he's still a dictator who shut every oponent to any of his decisions and manipulated the opinion. I'm believing that with the fall of Chavez perhaps venezuelians will ask for better governments in the future. And even if it takes a lot of time there will be a time for real democracy and a sort of equality. Look at Egypt (and the arabic spring in general), they threw Moubarak out and it was the beginning, now they have islamists in power but there are still riots everywhere and i'm sure the "brothers muslim" will fall too as they have no clue how to lead the country and try to lock people's freedom. In 5 yrs Egypt will surely have a government who care about something else than religious matter and try to stop poverty. It will also happen to Venezuela with the fall of chavez as its beginning.
in which world exactly are you living? looks like a fairy tale dream land.
i don't think egypt will have a government without a religious party in 5 years at all. what makes you believe they will? they threw out moubarak and how did the situation of the people improve?
if you look at venezuela chavez has done more for the poor people in his country then any other president in the last 50 years. the country will now probably get another US friendly dictator that gives a shit about the poor and caters to the oil industry. just as it was before chavez. and it was not 'better' for sure.
Yeah, keeping poor people poor is relatively good. It was, however, the main goal of his government, to keep poor people poor and to drag everyone there too.
Middle Class is pretty much non-existant here, you work here to survive, and saving money is..well, impossible since everything skyrockets everyday with the price of the blackMarket $. .
On March 06 2013 07:14 tshi wrote: I hope the next president is a bit more peaceful and works better with America/The world.
I hope just the opposite!
And why would you ever hope that?
I don't know why, but if I had to take a guess, it would probably have to do with the fact that the US is history's greatest empire, with extreme hegemony and influence over many countries in the world, especially your own. There is no balance, and especially not total balance. I guess he doesn't want Venezuela to be another US pawn. :S Then again, we know how countries like that end up, especially if it's in one the world's most important strategic regions (Iraq 1991-2012).
Nah, the British empire at its height was a far greater beast. A very good book on the failing of Americas empire is Incoherent Empire by Michael Mann:
After World War 2, imperialism evolved from territorial to hegemonic, like the old Assyrian style. The US dominates most of Europe (esp. after Cold War), parts of the Far East, parts of the Mideast, much of South America, all of North America, Australia, any country in Africa desperate enough for money that it allows itself to be completely exploited (and there's lots of those), and even parts of Antarctica (lol).
The British didn't have that. Not even the USSR came close.
If you want to see what actual hegemony is, study the British empire, America can hardly control its neighbors or influenced states trading patterns. When Canada is not satisfied with how much oil America is buying we simply turn around an offer it to China. When China wasn't satisfied with British opium flowing into its borders they tried to stop that but failed, badly. America doesn't have the economic means to influence world trade to anywhere near the degree the British empire did. You say oh look at the Iran sanctions that is economic control, I say look at the very American companies that broke the sanctions to continue doing business with Iran. The American government hardly has the ability to control its own corporations. If you actually read the book it would give you a good idea why America is a failing empire.
American corporatism alone practically runs 3rd world countries. You're right, the US govt. doesn't have a lot of power over US corporations because US corporations are ungodly powerful, so powerful that they are a huge factor in American Imperialism and one of the main reasons why the US dominates a good chunk of the world. The US government is responsible for the political side of our imperialism. To give one example, between the end of WW2 and the Soviet collapse alone, the USA has come to essentially dominate Europe, except for Russia and a couple other countries. Rarely does an imperial power come to dominate other advanced nations, but the US practically holds hegemony over the whole developed world.
On March 06 2013 07:14 tshi wrote: I hope the next president is a bit more peaceful and works better with America/The world.
I hope just the opposite!
And why would you ever hope that?
I don't know why, but if I had to take a guess, it would probably have to do with the fact that the US is history's greatest empire, with extreme hegemony and influence over many countries in the world, especially your own. There is no balance, and especially not total balance. I guess he doesn't want Venezuela to be another US pawn. :S Then again, we know how countries like that end up, especially if it's in one the world's most important strategic regions (Iraq 1991-2012).
Nah, the British empire at its height was a far greater beast. A very good book on the failing of Americas empire is Incoherent Empire by Michael Mann:
After World War 2, imperialism evolved from territorial to hegemonic, like the old Assyrian style. The US dominates most of Europe (esp. after Cold War), parts of the Far East, parts of the Mideast, much of South America, all of North America, Australia, any country in Africa desperate enough for money that it allows itself to be completely exploited (and there's lots of those), and even parts of Antarctica (lol).
The British didn't have that. Not even the USSR came close.
It's the same damn empire.
Britain is not the USA. I don't see what you're getting at.
This discussion is ridiculous. The US has never been hegemonic because of the nature of the global economy. The US does not 'dominate Europe' in any way, shape or form. They are completely interdependent. The US does not dominate anywhere, and is not even considered a hyperpower in the sense that the British, Mongol and Roman empires were. The complete opposite of what you said is true - hegemony is no longer possible because of nuclear arms, globalism and a number of other reasons.
The British empire and the US are two completely separate entities, one partially filling the power void left by the other.
His government may have had a ton of flaws, but I'd have exchanged him in an eyeblink for the bullshit oligarchy puppets we are forced to suffer through here in Spain.
In. An. Eyeblink.
This world desperately needs more people who fight the same fight Chavez did. The dream lives on :D.
On March 08 2013 00:00 Asvhald wrote: RIP Chavez, always in our hearts.
His government may have had a ton of flaws, but I'd have exchanged him in an eyeblink for the bullshit oligarchy puppets we are forced to suffer through here in Spain.
In. An. Eyeblink.
This world desperately needs more people who fight the same fight Chavez did. The dream lives on :D.
On March 08 2013 00:00 Asvhald wrote: RIP Chavez, always in our hearts.
His government may have had a ton of flaws, but I'd have exchanged him in an eyeblink for the bullshit oligarchy puppets we are forced to suffer through here in Spain.
In. An. Eyeblink.
This world desperately needs more people who fight the same fight Chavez did. The dream lives on :D.
That's right
Wanna trade?
I bet you'd love Chavez's doings (or for that matter now, Maduro's) in Spain. That'd be fun to watch.
Si no lo viviste aqui, entonces no creo que tengas mucha potestad de decir u opinar sobre como goberno, tampoco tienes que dejarte llevar por todo lo que dicen los websites (pro y en contra). En fin..
On March 08 2013 00:00 Asvhald wrote: RIP Chavez, always in our hearts.
His government may have had a ton of flaws, but I'd have exchanged him in an eyeblink for the bullshit oligarchy puppets we are forced to suffer through here in Spain.
In. An. Eyeblink.
This world desperately needs more people who fight the same fight Chavez did. The dream lives on :D.
That's right
Wanna trade?
I bet you'd love Chavez's doings (or for that matter now, Maduro's) in Spain. That'd be fun to watch.
Si no lo viviste aqui, entonces no creo que tengas mucha potestad de decir u opinar sobre como goberno, tampoco tienes que dejarte llevar por todo lo que dicen los websites (pro y en contra). En fin..
You better dont come in Spain if you wanna work someday in the next 10 years.
On March 08 2013 00:00 Asvhald wrote: RIP Chavez, always in our hearts.
His government may have had a ton of flaws, but I'd have exchanged him in an eyeblink for the bullshit oligarchy puppets we are forced to suffer through here in Spain.
In. An. Eyeblink.
This world desperately needs more people who fight the same fight Chavez did. The dream lives on :D.
That's right
Wanna trade?
I bet you'd love Chavez's doings (or for that matter now, Maduro's) in Spain. That'd be fun to watch.
Si no lo viviste aqui, entonces no creo que tengas mucha potestad de decir u opinar sobre como goberno, tampoco tienes que dejarte llevar por todo lo que dicen los websites (pro y en contra). En fin..
You better dont come in Spain if you wanna work someday in the next 10 years.
No hace falta vivir algo para leer datos.
Sigue leyendo los datos entonces, vas a llegar muy lejos haciendo eso.
On March 08 2013 00:00 Asvhald wrote: RIP Chavez, always in our hearts.
His government may have had a ton of flaws, but I'd have exchanged him in an eyeblink for the bullshit oligarchy puppets we are forced to suffer through here in Spain.
In. An. Eyeblink.
This world desperately needs more people who fight the same fight Chavez did. The dream lives on :D.
That's right
Wanna trade?
I bet you'd love Chavez's doings (or for that matter now, Maduro's) in Spain. That'd be fun to watch.
Si no lo viviste aqui, entonces no creo que tengas mucha potestad de decir u opinar sobre como goberno, tampoco tienes que dejarte llevar por todo lo que dicen los websites (pro y en contra). En fin..
You better dont come in Spain if you wanna work someday in the next 10 years.
No hace falta vivir algo para leer datos.
Sigue leyendo los datos entonces, vas a llegar muy lejos haciendo eso.
This is still an english speaking forum. Also: May i ask which class you belong to in venzuela? from your posts i'd definately say upper class and most definately not of indigo origin.
On March 08 2013 00:00 Asvhald wrote: RIP Chavez, always in our hearts.
His government may have had a ton of flaws, but I'd have exchanged him in an eyeblink for the bullshit oligarchy puppets we are forced to suffer through here in Spain.
In. An. Eyeblink.
This world desperately needs more people who fight the same fight Chavez did. The dream lives on :D.
That's right
Wanna trade?
I bet you'd love Chavez's doings (or for that matter now, Maduro's) in Spain. That'd be fun to watch.
Si no lo viviste aqui, entonces no creo que tengas mucha potestad de decir u opinar sobre como goberno, tampoco tienes que dejarte llevar por todo lo que dicen los websites (pro y en contra). En fin..
You better dont come in Spain if you wanna work someday in the next 10 years.
No hace falta vivir algo para leer datos.
Sigue leyendo los datos entonces, vas a llegar muy lejos haciendo eso.
This is still an english speaking forum. Also: May i ask which class you belong to in venzuela? from your posts i'd definately say upper class and most definately not of indigo origin.
I was or used to be MiddleClass, now I'm below it?
We are 3 working people in my house, and we barely make it sometimes. It's hard, things are very expensieve, I said to one of my friends who is an avid Chavez supporter, that he in fact, was a good leader in paper, but taking a better look at his actions and doings he just wasn't. At all.
He always told his supporters to be very violent and intolerant to those who did not support him, that we were the scum of the country because we didn't like his policies of giving away money for free without getting anything in return and whatnot.
Actually second time someome has said something among those lines to me, that I think that living well is bad. I mean, I want to live well, I do want to live a comfortable life, and I work hard for it. What's the problem there?
On March 08 2013 00:00 Asvhald wrote: RIP Chavez, always in our hearts.
His government may have had a ton of flaws, but I'd have exchanged him in an eyeblink for the bullshit oligarchy puppets we are forced to suffer through here in Spain.
In. An. Eyeblink.
This world desperately needs more people who fight the same fight Chavez did. The dream lives on :D.
That's right
Wanna trade?
I bet you'd love Chavez's doings (or for that matter now, Maduro's) in Spain. That'd be fun to watch.
Si no lo viviste aqui, entonces no creo que tengas mucha potestad de decir u opinar sobre como goberno, tampoco tienes que dejarte llevar por todo lo que dicen los websites (pro y en contra). En fin..
You better dont come in Spain if you wanna work someday in the next 10 years.
No hace falta vivir algo para leer datos.
Sigue leyendo los datos entonces, vas a llegar muy lejos haciendo eso.
Of course im reading facts. Thats much better than supporting the coup tried in 2002 no?
Chavez took out of extreme poverty 70% of the people that was on that situation
The country with less unequality in the whole continent.
Chavez took out of poverty 50% of the people that was poor.
On March 08 2013 00:00 Asvhald wrote: RIP Chavez, always in our hearts.
His government may have had a ton of flaws, but I'd have exchanged him in an eyeblink for the bullshit oligarchy puppets we are forced to suffer through here in Spain.
In. An. Eyeblink.
This world desperately needs more people who fight the same fight Chavez did. The dream lives on :D.
That's right
Wanna trade?
I bet you'd love Chavez's doings (or for that matter now, Maduro's) in Spain. That'd be fun to watch.
Si no lo viviste aqui, entonces no creo que tengas mucha potestad de decir u opinar sobre como goberno, tampoco tienes que dejarte llevar por todo lo que dicen los websites (pro y en contra). En fin..
You better dont come in Spain if you wanna work someday in the next 10 years.
No hace falta vivir algo para leer datos.
Sigue leyendo los datos entonces, vas a llegar muy lejos haciendo eso.
Of course im reading facts. Thats much better than supporting the coup tried in 2002 no?
Chavez took out of extreme poverty 70% of the people that was on that situation
The country with less unequality in the whole continent.
Chavez took out of poverty 50% of the people that was poor.
Highest min salaries on Sudamerica.
Keep cheering the USA, wont help your country.
Haha exactly, keep reading the papers.
Highest min salaries on South America? really? they're calculating the salary at a fixed Dollar rate, which by the fucking way, not many people can get a hold of. You think companies are buying / producing at the 6.3BsF fixed rate per dollar? NO.
They have to go in the black market, because the goverment chooses who to give $ to. Let's put this in comparison.
The minimum salary here is at 2.047BsF. If you convert those 2047BsF to the fixed rate of the dollar, of course it gives you a high amount, but you cannot get your hands on those $ unless you're well connected to the government, traveling or something else.
The Blackmarket sells the dollar at 24BsF a piece. so..
2.047 / 6.3 = 324,9$ (very good ah?).. 2.047 / 24 = 85$ (not so good now ah?)..
btw, the fiscal deficit is at an all time high of 15% (which is also, the highest in Latin America). .
The reality here, is that, they will always claim that they have made improvements to the salaries here, but we still get fucked because all of the companies import stuff at 20-24BsF/$ or more, and it always hurts us back again.
Think again before making assumptions =p.
edit: Keep bitching about your work situation, it won't help you get better.
And here we go again, always the same problem the people that wants to change the money because they have enough money to get out of the country and make profit of it.
Deal with it, it helps most of the people maybe not the people that wishes to get out of Venezuela, but it does for the majority and thats why he keeps getting reelected, once again, deal with it.
Of course my work situation wont get better. In spain we have 25% unemployed people that makes 5.040.000 people without a job (not counting the students or the old people) for the youth the unemployment rate is higher than 50%.
Meanwhile in Venezuela a 3rd world country 5.4% of unemployment... oh yea... Chavez is so bad.
On March 08 2013 01:21 arChieSC2 wrote: And here we go again, always the same problem the people that wants to change the money because they have enough money to get out of the country and make profit of it.
Deal with it, it helps most of the people maybe not the people that wishes to get out of Venezuela, but it does for the majority and thats why he keeps getting reelected, once again, deal with it.
In which part of my posts did I make any comments on "getting out of Venezuela"?
I was gonna keep on writing here, but meh, it's useless. .
On March 08 2013 00:00 Asvhald wrote: RIP Chavez, always in our hearts.
His government may have had a ton of flaws, but I'd have exchanged him in an eyeblink for the bullshit oligarchy puppets we are forced to suffer through here in Spain.
In. An. Eyeblink.
This world desperately needs more people who fight the same fight Chavez did. The dream lives on :D.
That's right
Wanna trade?
I bet you'd love Chavez's doings (or for that matter now, Maduro's) in Spain. That'd be fun to watch.
Si no lo viviste aqui, entonces no creo que tengas mucha potestad de decir u opinar sobre como goberno, tampoco tienes que dejarte llevar por todo lo que dicen los websites (pro y en contra). En fin..
Bro, here we have a whopping 26.2% unemployment rate (and double that for people under 25 years) which keeps rising, our government bails banks out with public money while people kill themselves every second day over losing their homes to foreclosure due to inflated-to-hell mortgage appraisals by banks during the housing bubble. That, while they erode, decree by decree, in the blink of an eye, our rights, social security and public safety nets that took decades and so much blood to achieve. The last labour market reform made it so people can get fired without a dime just for being sick for about 20 days in a year, among many other "delicacies".
And all that, while the oligarchy across the continent (their true masters) increases their benefits by double digits percentage.
So yes, I bet I'd love something like Chavez here in Spain. Very much so. I'd vote for him in a goddamn heartbeat.
I know some people from Venezuela who complain about Chavez, as is their right of course but, coincidentally they are all of snow-white origin and over here instead of over there. Bet you all were better when 70% of the country was below the poverty threshold?
On March 08 2013 01:21 arChieSC2 wrote: And here we go again, always the same problem the people that wants to change the money because they have enough money to get out of the country and make profit of it.
Deal with it, it helps most of the people maybe not the people that wishes to get out of Venezuela, but it does for the majority and thats why he keeps getting reelected, once again, deal with it.
In which part of my posts did I make any comments on "getting out of Venezuela"?
I was gonna keep on writing here, but meh, it's useless. .
Sell in Bs.F and buy in Bs.F and u wont have any problem.
It's silly to compare Spain and Venezuela like that. It's not only because of the recent leadership in both of these countries that they ended up like that. If Chavez was in Spain, Spain's economy wouldn't have improved the way Venezuela's has, and it's also silly to ignore things like the gigantic increase in the price of oil when looking at Venezuela. Spain isn't the only european country with issues as well afaik.
It makes sense to believe the situation in Venezuela would have improved economically with another kind of leadership as well, and the question of whether it would have improved more than it currently has is not as simple as you are making it out to be. You can't just say "unemployment rates are low, it was obviously a good governament".
On March 08 2013 02:14 SKC wrote: It's silly to compare Spain and Venezuela like that. It's not only because of the recent leadership in both of these countries that they ended up like that. If Chavez was in Spain, Spain's economy wouldn't have improved the way Venezuela's has, and it's also silly to ignore things like the gigantic increase in the price of oil when looking at Venezuela. Spain isn't the only european country with issues as well afaik.
It makes sense to believe the situation in Venezuela would have improved economically with another kind of leadership as well, and the question of whether it would have improved more than it currently has is not as simple as you are making it out to be. You can't just say "unemployment rates are low, it was obviously a good governament".
No. I'm saying I support Chavez's priorities and allegiances as a ruler, as in using the country's resources to help his people, especially the poor ones, rather than what is being done here (polar opposite).
On March 06 2013 07:26 sam!zdat wrote: I like to see people stand up to America. We need more of that.
The man attempted a military coup, you don't get to talk shit about the elected leaders of any other country when you think it's okay to seize power by force.
im glad such a complex situation and the History of Coups and Military Juntas in Latin America has been boiled down to such an incredibly hypocritical comment like that.
On March 08 2013 02:14 SKC wrote: It's silly to compare Spain and Venezuela like that. It's not only because of the recent leadership in both of these countries that they ended up like that. If Chavez was in Spain, Spain's economy wouldn't have improved the way Venezuela's has, and it's also silly to ignore things like the gigantic increase in the price of oil when looking at Venezuela. Spain isn't the only european country with issues as well afaik.
It makes sense to believe the situation in Venezuela would have improved economically with another kind of leadership as well, and the question of whether it would have improved more than it currently has is not as simple as you are making it out to be. You can't just say "unemployment rates are low, it was obviously a good governament".
Well put, this is the way to think about it.
I grew up in Venezuela and my parents left a few years after Chavez came into power because it was clear he meant to change the way business is/was done. There are a lot of topics to cover here:
1) First people are right when they say he focused on people in need. There are a lot of programs for education and food for people in need. That being said, these are not the most efficient system possible. Some of this are corrupt and have't really provided a distinct benefit.
2) He has nationalize many indutries, and you know what I am OK with that but the problem is when he drives them to the ground after doing so. The hydro electric generation has not increased in the last 10 years, there has been no reliable infrastructural improvement or maintenance to my knowledge. If this source of energy fails there wont be talking about turning the lights of here and there every other day (like they already do, which is bad) but about more serious problems.
3) Curroption in higher goverment. This has always been the case in Venezuela, I am too young to compare my self but i do hear it is much worse than the average. The people that have gotten (significantly) rich in the last 10 years have all been connected to the goverment, and there never seems to be any intention on cracking down on them... we are talking about people starting thier own line of restaurants while being part of a cabinet...
Regarding employment, this is a very interesting topic, i do believe they are lucky because there are enough exports to keep jobs going but people are being underpaid, this have not improved for the middle class it has only gotten worse.
With all the respect, we are fucked here in Spain, yes, but we are still miles and heaps and bounds less fucked than people living in Venezuela.
I don't know if you noticed, but you have to go to the black market to get a handful of dollars. In Spain, you just have to walk into one of these corrupted banks and ask for it. Yes, they will screw the rate for you and make money out of you, but they won't sell them to you at 4 times their market value.
And in these sort of situations, people want to get a hold of dollars because they fear their national currency will devalue overnight and they will suddenly become (a lot more) poor. Imagine what would happen if one day you wake up and a leaf of bread costs 10€? and the next day 50€? While the dollar conversion is 1$ to 10€ the first day, 1$ to 50€ the next day. What would you rather do with those 100€ you have at hand right now? Buy dollars of course, and not because you want to make a trip to LA, but to keep being able to buy bread.
People from other countries cant really make an informed opinion on Chavez goverment, you cant really know how it is to live there, it isnt something you can read on the newspaper or in the internet, the rampant insecurity, criminals kill on the street in plain day light and they never get caught, almost a quarter million people died by violence in this last 10 years and its getting worse and worse to the point where its out of control, members of the army and police kidnapping and murdering people, we are at a point where is more dangerous a police officer than a thief, the situation its so common that I have been mugged several times with a gun pointed at my face (once by a member of the army), and you know what? the sad thing is that everyone has and its so common that you get use to it, our currency the Bolivar dropped its value in more than 1000% in the last 10 years, so NO, he did not made our country better in any way, he got his huge support because he did a lot for the poor, which is not bad, but in the process he destroyed our country.
EDIT: And btw is not that the poors are better now, they are still poor.
On March 08 2013 00:00 Asvhald wrote: RIP Chavez, always in our hearts.
His government may have had a ton of flaws, but I'd have exchanged him in an eyeblink for the bullshit oligarchy puppets we are forced to suffer through here in Spain.
In. An. Eyeblink.
This world desperately needs more people who fight the same fight Chavez did. The dream lives on :D.
That's right
Wanna trade?
I bet you'd love Chavez's doings (or for that matter now, Maduro's) in Spain. That'd be fun to watch.
Si no lo viviste aqui, entonces no creo que tengas mucha potestad de decir u opinar sobre como goberno, tampoco tienes que dejarte llevar por todo lo que dicen los websites (pro y en contra). En fin..
Bro, here we have a whopping 26.2% unemployment rate (and double that for people under 25 years) which keeps rising, our government bails banks out with public money while people kill themselves every second day over losing their homes to foreclosure due to inflated-to-hell mortgage appraisals by banks during the housing bubble. That, while they erode, decree by decree, in the blink of an eye, our rights, social security and public safety nets that took decades and so much blood to achieve. The last labour market reform made it so people can get fired without a dime just for being sick for about 20 days in a year, among many other "delicacies".
And all that, while the oligarchy across the continent (their true masters) increases their benefits by double digits percentage.
So yes, I bet I'd love something like Chavez here in Spain. Very much so. I'd vote for him in a goddamn heartbeat.
I know some people from Venezuela who complain about Chavez, as is their right of course but, coincidentally they are all of snow-white origin and over here instead of over there. Bet you all were better when 70% of the country was below the poverty threshold?
Man, what is your point? That life in Venezuela is better than in Spain? That is ridiculous. And lol even if it were true have you weighted how much of Venezuela's prosperity is due to being oil rich??? What Chavez has to do with that?
On March 06 2013 07:03 Heinsenzerg wrote: Condolences to the people of Venezuela. Stay strong We are together
On March 06 2013 07:04 crazyweasel wrote: hasta la victoria!!!
We are together indeed, and here we go one more time, add this one to the list of people who decides to fight against the interests of "America" and ends up dead.
On March 06 2013 07:04 crazyweasel wrote: hasta la victoria!!!
We are together indeed, and here we go one more time, add this one to the list of people who decides to fight against the interests of "America" and ends up dead.
is not like he was murdered.. we allend up dead : /
I have a friend in Venezuela (mid-thirties, if you were wondering - he was around before Chavez), who just sent me and a couple of friends an update on the Venezuela situation from their perspective, and I figured it could be interesting.
Ok folks, an update on the Venezuela situation.
Lol, I really need to keep up on my own laws. But ever since Chavez got into power, our constitution has been amended, edited, hotfixed, retconed, buffed, nerfed, tweaked, and adjusted, that I have no idea where does it starts nor where it ends.
Literally every day they'd remove or add a new article to it, or edit/tweak an old article on it.
Well, turns out we MAY have some good changes quicker than expected.
On my last post I had told you guys that for the time being we're screwed, because even though Chavez died, he had won the October presidential elections, thus putting the PCV in power, so even in death, the PCV is still in power and we'd have to wait till the next elections, 7 years from now before we have another chance to put someone from the UNT in the presidential seat.
Turns out that's how the OLD law worked, chavez had made (as usual) another change to the constitution without consulting with the people, there was no voting on this. If a president dies before his term is up, rather than the Vice-president being sworn in to fill in his office till the end of that constitutional period, we will have again presidential elections.
At first I was like "ohh yeah, what good that'll do? I bet that since the president that died was PCV, that means only PCV candidates can run for presidency, so its just the PCV choosing who's gonna rule"
Turns out that's not the case, we're having ACTUAL presidential elections, the whole campaign, and anyone from any political party can run for presidency, which means Capriles, can run again, and hopefully actually win this time (Which I'm actually somewhat optimistic, since Capriles Vs Chavez ended up in Chavez having a victory with just a 10% margin. So Capriles against a much less powerful candidate SHOULD win).
For the time being, we're having 7 days of national mourning (enforced at gunpoint by national guards, the army, and the police, public displays of celebration are not allowed, if you wanna celebrate, do so behind closed doors, and without making much noise) and then 30 days from now, they'll announce the date of the next presidential elections.
Wish us luck folks, we may actually have some improvement quicker than expected. Of course, Chavez had established quite a cult to himself before kicking the bucket, there's a LOT of brainwashed idiots who genuely did followed him, and no matter how hard they were smitten by the whips, they just kept asking for more, the guy is really good at this brainwashing stuff, so those zombies "could" (I'm hoping not) still outnumber the actual sane people. We'll see.
On March 06 2013 07:04 crazyweasel wrote: hasta la victoria!!!
We are together indeed, and here we go one more time, add this one to the list of people who decides to fight against the interests of "America" and ends up dead.
In fairness people who decide to fight against the interests of Santa also eventually all end up dead.
On March 08 2013 04:47 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: They literally said you can celebrate in private over Chavez's death, or is it just people trying to dodge the national guard?
You can't make any celebration in a public manner. Since the country is "mourning" the passing of it's president, then we are not allowed to have any celebrations nor parties in public places. Also, You can't get booze .
On March 08 2013 00:00 Asvhald wrote: RIP Chavez, always in our hearts.
His government may have had a ton of flaws, but I'd have exchanged him in an eyeblink for the bullshit oligarchy puppets we are forced to suffer through here in Spain.
In. An. Eyeblink.
This world desperately needs more people who fight the same fight Chavez did. The dream lives on :D.
That's right
Wanna trade?
I bet you'd love Chavez's doings (or for that matter now, Maduro's) in Spain. That'd be fun to watch.
Si no lo viviste aqui, entonces no creo que tengas mucha potestad de decir u opinar sobre como goberno, tampoco tienes que dejarte llevar por todo lo que dicen los websites (pro y en contra). En fin..
Bro, here we have a whopping 26.2% unemployment rate (and double that for people under 25 years) which keeps rising, our government bails banks out with public money while people kill themselves every second day over losing their homes to foreclosure due to inflated-to-hell mortgage appraisals by banks during the housing bubble. That, while they erode, decree by decree, in the blink of an eye, our rights, social security and public safety nets that took decades and so much blood to achieve. The last labour market reform made it so people can get fired without a dime just for being sick for about 20 days in a year, among many other "delicacies".
And all that, while the oligarchy across the continent (their true masters) increases their benefits by double digits percentage.
So yes, I bet I'd love something like Chavez here in Spain. Very much so. I'd vote for him in a goddamn heartbeat.
I know some people from Venezuela who complain about Chavez, as is their right of course but, coincidentally they are all of snow-white origin and over here instead of over there. Bet you all were better when 70% of the country was below the poverty threshold?
Man, what is your point? That life in Venezuela is better than in Spain? That is ridiculous. And lol even if it were true have you weighted how much of Venezuela's prosperity is due to being oil rich??? What Chavez has to do with that?
I explained my point previously man. Life in Spain better than in Venezuela? For most people, yes, as of now, but not thanks to this or the last government. We are in a downward spiral, what with basic rights being stripped off people in the name of budget stability while public money is used to bail out banks and corruption runs rampant.
I will repeat: my point was to compare how Chavez decimated poverty levels in his country and has like 4 times less unemployment than we do, this is, his country might not be the richest one or be in the best of states but, compared to what it was before him... well, leaps and bounds better now, at least for the majority of people (aka the poor). It doesn't matter to me where does the country wealth come from, as long as it is employed in the benefit of the people, not foreign countries or corporations. That is what Chavez has been doing, and what isn't being done here in Spain. Hope you understand my point now.
Also, I was wondering if many of these Venezuelan folks living out of their country and bitching nonstop about Chavez were not people who lived a bit too well (or profiteered a bit too much) while 70% of the country lived in rags. Would make perfect sense to me.
On March 08 2013 00:00 Asvhald wrote: RIP Chavez, always in our hearts.
His government may have had a ton of flaws, but I'd have exchanged him in an eyeblink for the bullshit oligarchy puppets we are forced to suffer through here in Spain.
In. An. Eyeblink.
This world desperately needs more people who fight the same fight Chavez did. The dream lives on :D.
That's right
Wanna trade?
I bet you'd love Chavez's doings (or for that matter now, Maduro's) in Spain. That'd be fun to watch.
Si no lo viviste aqui, entonces no creo que tengas mucha potestad de decir u opinar sobre como goberno, tampoco tienes que dejarte llevar por todo lo que dicen los websites (pro y en contra). En fin..
Bro, here we have a whopping 26.2% unemployment rate (and double that for people under 25 years) which keeps rising, our government bails banks out with public money while people kill themselves every second day over losing their homes to foreclosure due to inflated-to-hell mortgage appraisals by banks during the housing bubble. That, while they erode, decree by decree, in the blink of an eye, our rights, social security and public safety nets that took decades and so much blood to achieve. The last labour market reform made it so people can get fired without a dime just for being sick for about 20 days in a year, among many other "delicacies".
And all that, while the oligarchy across the continent (their true masters) increases their benefits by double digits percentage.
So yes, I bet I'd love something like Chavez here in Spain. Very much so. I'd vote for him in a goddamn heartbeat.
I know some people from Venezuela who complain about Chavez, as is their right of course but, coincidentally they are all of snow-white origin and over here instead of over there. Bet you all were better when 70% of the country was below the poverty threshold?
Man, what is your point? That life in Venezuela is better than in Spain? That is ridiculous. And lol even if it were true have you weighted how much of Venezuela's prosperity is due to being oil rich??? What Chavez has to do with that?
I explained my point previously man. Life in Spain better than in Venezuela? For most people, yes, as of now, but not thanks to this or the last government. We are in a downward spiral, what with basic rights being stripped off people in the name of budget stability while public money is used to bail out banks and corruption runs rampant.
I will repeat: my point was to compare how Chavez decimated poverty levels in his country and has like 4 times less unemployment than we do, this is, his country might not be the richest one or be in the best of states but, compared to what it was before him... well, leaps and bounds better now, at least for the majority of people (aka the poor). It doesn't matter to me where does the country wealth come from, as long as it is employed in the benefit of the people, not foreign countries or corporations. That is what Chavez has been doing, and what isn't being done here in Spain. Hope you understand my point now.
Also, I was wondering if many of these Venezuelan folks living out of their country and bitching nonstop about Chavez were not people who lived a bit too well (or profiteered a bit too much) while 70% of the country lived in rags. Would make perfect sense to me.
Everything are in different scale. It does matter where the country's wealth comes from, certain wealth are easier to generate than other, and oil happened to be one of those easy wealth.
Majority of Venezuelan are in poverty, and their basic infrastructure are bad, so any tiny improvement made for those people would appeared more effective, than the same applied to Spanians.
Well I guess I'm forced to comment again because some venezuelans came to this thread to rant about how their parents had it easier some 30 years ago, sadly most of these people are ignorant about our own country, so let me explain something to people reading this thread that wonder why some people supported Chavez and why some people (mostly white people, there is a reason) hated Chavez a lot, while whinning about their lost priviledges, that ironically they would never get in the two countries they praise the most: The USA and Spain, why is that? Well because I know that people in those countries actually work pretty damn hard, which they as a social group never did (in general, not individually), I'll explain this:
It all started...
-Venezuela in the mid 70's was incredibly rich, oil production was around 2.4 million barrels a day, the price of oil was proportionaly way higher than right now and the population was a mere 11 millions compared to the 30 million of today, which around 5.5 millions are colombian immigrants. Those days were called the golden age Saudi Venezuela, the government working tighly with Fedecamaras (organisation of the big enterprises of 13 economic sectors, basically an organization to promote monopoly) designed a strategy called CORDIPLAN or plan of the nation, the objective was to industrialize the country with oil money, the guys behind this idea were: Gurmensindo Rodriguez and Pedro Tinoco, the two biggest bankers of the country, the second came with the idea of creating a government bureau called Ministery of economic planning, autonomous similar to the FED, the guy in charge was to be appointed by Congress for a 5.5 year term but could not be removed by the executive branch "so politicians don't meddle with economic policies", as you guessed it, he himself was appointed as the minister, in the Fedecamaras Hall after a presidential speech. (!).
CORDIPLAN: -Nationalize the oil industry. The dictatorships that ended in 1956 put in the oil consessions-contracts that the private companies properties (machinery, some buildings, etc) will pass to the hands of the state after a 40 year period, it was due to start happening in 1978 but the oil industry was nationalized in 1976... That is the government paid for all the property that was going to get for free in only 2 years... (!)
-Gurmensindo Rodriguez's idea that "anybody that can contribute with the state should do it" meant that public schools and universities now demanded inscription fees that poor people could not afford. They were low, true, but I remenber a neighbour asking people for money so my best friend could go to a public highschool (those laws were abolished around the year 2001). That also meant that middle class families had to buy all sort of medical supplies when attending public hospitals.
(why do I put this?, only to show how absolute corruption can destroy a country and that bailing out banks that don't need it like Goldman Sachs is not the worse trick of the book).
With these and other measures the state had huge amounts of dollars, all this money then was used to create an industrial city that was the most modern in all of LA, called Ciudad Guayana, there a lot of public enterprises were created: To exploit iron, steel, gold, aluminium, etc, these as you can see are basic materials, the trick is that these then were going to be sold at 1% or 2% over the production cost to Fedecamaras's industries, this is obviously a HUGE subsidy that increased industrialization, in theory these enterprises getting raw materials very cheaply could then produce goods, some of them did but in reality most of them just sold the damn thing nationally or internationally at an international price for a fat profit. That was only half the subsidy because there was another one almost as big, these public industries didn't have to pay for electricity because, they argued, that was just another industry of the government, considering the amount of electricity it takes to run an steel factory... it's obvious that production cost dropped significantly and directly benefited the private-parasites or burguesia parasitaria that worked around them (term coined by the next governments to criticize this model). Obviously the whole thing was doomed to fail, in case you are wondering what happened: The cheap steel and aluminium sold in the US was banned when the US gov found out that the industry didn't pay for electricity, since it was declared unfair trade, with production cost increasing quite a lot afterwards and nobody to buy those huge quantities of raw materials those two industries went broke to this day., the other industries that were subsidized in many many fields slowly went bankrupt when the subsidies could not be sustained, the lasts ones being cut in 1989 by FMI advice, which was the sane thing to do, but brought a lot of unemployment and what not because so many industries closed in such a short period of time.
(Maria Corina Machado, she is a former 'oposition' presidential candidate and daughter of one of the guys that benefited from cheap steel, known back then as Machado the steel king). [Got to admit, I wish I had more wet dreams with her more often, I once had one4real!! Lol how innapropiate].
This crazy model that brough huge economic growth before collapsing in 1980, was really shortlived since it only lasted 4 good years and then a steady decline. It was called, like I said before, the golden age or Saudi Venezuela by the same people that benefited. The change in mentality back then was huge, people going from small towns to the big cities could easily find work for the government for huge/disproportionate salaries, especially if they had an university degree, my mom was one, she graduated in civil engineering and thanks to my grandfather's contacts could work for the government for around 1100$ a month, easily 6-7 times today's minimum wage, even though she was a low ranked engineer, a job without much responsibilities, a lot of people had it much better. Venezuela then was known for having huge amounts of expensive sports cars and for importing real size lakes of scotch whisky and european champagne. paid by these same very rich midlee class.
The mentality of the people changed so much also thanks to propaganda of the media, owned of course by the same people who benefited from subsidies. Some people, especially white people who went to universities were raised in these types of homes, they think it's normal for a middle class person in any country to be drinking expensive champagne every weekend or change sport cars every year, I'm honest with this, it's no exaggeration... Back then so many people traveled to Miami that that city it's said (in the media back then, arrogant as always) was built by venezuelans, because a lot of venezuelans moved there or went for vacations, around 40$ billions were invested in housing by venezuelans in that city alone. They think a period like that can happend again, they are what you could say believers in the american dream we lived for only a few years, all of them are very pro-US but in a crazy way, not a realistic-good way, it's like going to NY rich parts and thinking the whole of US is like that, it is not. An anecdote, I have an aunt that is a singer, she got paid 2000$ to do some small concerts in NY last year, she came here trying to speak english (can't say more than 3 words, really) and feeling "american" and saying how great it's winning 2000$ in a week's work, she doesn't realize that's peanuts to live in NY... She's exactly from that demographic.
The president who was in charge during this period died in that city Miami, he exiled himself after being prosecuted by justice on corruption charges. Half, that is 3 out of 6, of venezuelan presidents have died in the US escaping corruption charges. Actually Chavez is only the third venezuelan president to die in our country after the democracy, the other 3, like I said...
It's sad how the media can manipulate minds and how one can live in a bubble, Chavez also created a welfare bubble for the poor people and they are for a rude awakening, it's already happening and a complete true but at least resources have been invested in the country this time and everything isn't going to waste, people getting subsidies will see them reduced like the huge reduction in wages done this year, but the disaster of the 80's it's not comming back, I predict people in the future will see Chavez's government as a second golden age depending if they were on the ends of subsidies or not, just like the leftovers of what once was a huge very rich middle class still do, so many years after.
The thing is some people believe capitalism "like in the US" could turn our country into one as prosperous as the US, but this is impossible because every country has a different background, my country had a brutal colonial society divided in castes, after the abolition of slavery the slaves turned into almost-free labour until around 1940's... (sometimes paid only with food) even as close as the 50's society was still completely controlled by the same descendants of the colonial masters and a new group of people, the army people that were the dictatorship. They have a monopoly mentality, they think the state should serve them like it was their right, it's a whole different game from the honest (not so honest anymore) capitalism in the US were hard work rewards and not just sitting and living off government subsidies and corruption deals. I'm more than convinced that the divisions in society today are partly the renmants of the colonial mentality of castes, I'm an internationalist, I owe nothing to any nation, hence the Somalia thing... I try to be as neutral as possible, yet people that support Chavez accuse me of being an american supporter or petit-yankee for among other things speaking english and the oposition accuse me of being 'poor trash' for supporting Chavez, even some doctor some time ago told me to stop spreading communist propaganda since I'm not poor, it was rather funny.
Every country is different, has different problems and needs different solutions.
On March 08 2013 00:00 Asvhald wrote: RIP Chavez, always in our hearts.
His government may have had a ton of flaws, but I'd have exchanged him in an eyeblink for the bullshit oligarchy puppets we are forced to suffer through here in Spain.
In. An. Eyeblink.
This world desperately needs more people who fight the same fight Chavez did. The dream lives on :D.
That's right
Wanna trade?
I bet you'd love Chavez's doings (or for that matter now, Maduro's) in Spain. That'd be fun to watch.
Si no lo viviste aqui, entonces no creo que tengas mucha potestad de decir u opinar sobre como goberno, tampoco tienes que dejarte llevar por todo lo que dicen los websites (pro y en contra). En fin..
You better dont come in Spain if you wanna work someday in the next 10 years.
No hace falta vivir algo para leer datos.
Sigue leyendo los datos entonces, vas a llegar muy lejos haciendo eso.
Of course im reading facts. Thats much better than supporting the coup tried in 2002 no?
Chavez took out of extreme poverty 70% of the people that was on that situation
The country with less unequality in the whole continent.
Chavez took out of poverty 50% of the people that was poor.
Highest min salaries on Sudamerica.
Keep cheering the USA, wont help your country.
it is not highest anymore after devaluation, and even pre devaluation, the currency is overvalued, there is a black market where true rate is 26 bs per dollar, in which case min. wage is $82 monthly. Learn your facts before talking shit. check black market page http://www.lechugaverde.com/
On March 08 2013 12:31 Nevermind86 wrote: Well I guess I'm forced to comment again because some venezuelans came to this thread to rant about how their parents had it easier some 30 years ago, sadly most of these people are ignorant about our own country, so let me explain something to people reading this thread that wonder why some people supported Chavez and why some people (mostly white people, there is a reason) hated Chavez a lot, while whinning about their lost priviledges, that ironically they would never get in the two countries they praise the most: The USA and Spain, why is that? Well because I know that people in those countries actually work pretty damn hard, which they as a social group never did (in general, not individually), I'll explain this:
It all started...
-Venezuela in the mid 70's was incredibly rich, oil production was around 2.4 million barrels a day, the price of oil was proportionaly way higher than right now and the population was a mere 11 millions compared to the 30 million of today, which around 5.5 millions are colombian immigrants. Those days were called the golden age Saudi Venezuela, the government working tighly with Fedecamaras (organisation of the big enterprises of 13 economic sectors, basically an organization to promote monopoly) designed a strategy called CORDIPLAN or plan of the nation, the objective was to industrialize the country with oil money, the guys behind this idea were: Gurmensindo Rodriguez and Pedro Tinoco, the two biggest bankers of the country, the second came with the idea of creating a government bureau called Ministery of economic planning, autonomous similar to the FED, the guy in charge was to be appointed by Congress for a 5.5 year term but could not be removed by the executive branch "so politicians don't meddle with economic policies", as you guessed it, he himself was appointed as the minister, in the Fedecamaras Hall after a presidential speech. (!).
CORDIPLAN: -Nationalize the oil industry. The dictatorships that ended in 1956 put in the oil consessions-contracts that the private companies properties (machinery, some buildings, etc) will pass to the hands of the state after a 40 year period, it was due to start happening in 1978 but the oil industry was nationalized in 1976... That is the government paid for all the property that was going to get for free in only 2 years... (!)
-Gurmensindo Rodriguez's idea that "anybody that can contribute with the state should do it" meant that public schools and universities now demanded inscription fees that poor people could not afford. They were low, true, but I remenber a neighbour asking people for money so my best friend could go to a public highschool (those laws were abolished around the year 2001). That also meant that middle class families had to buy all sort of medical supplies when attending public hospitals.
(why do I put this?, only to show how absolute corruption can destroy a country and that bailing out banks that don't need it like Goldman Sachs is not the worse trick of the book).
With these and other measures the state had huge amounts of dollars, all this money then was used to create an industrial city that was the most modern in all of LA, called Ciudad Guayana, there a lot of public enterprises were created: To exploit iron, steel, gold, aluminium, etc, these as you can see are basic materials, the trick is that these then were going to be sold at 1% or 2% over the production cost to Fedecamaras's industries, this is obviously a HUGE subsidy that increased industrialization, in theory these enterprises getting raw materials very cheaply could then produce goods, some of them did but in reality most of them just sold the damn thing nationally or internationally at an international price for a fat profit. That was only half the subsidy because there was another one almost as big, these public industries didn't have to pay for electricity because, they argued, that was just another industry of the government, considering the amount of electricity it takes to run an steel factory... it's obvious that production cost dropped significantly and directly benefited the private-parasites or burguesia parasitaria that worked around them (term coined by the next governments to criticize this model). Obviously the whole thing was doomed to fail, in case you are wondering what happened: The cheap steel and aluminium sold in the US was banned when the US gov found out that the industry didn't pay for electricity, since it was declared unfair trade, with production cost increasing quite a lot afterwards and nobody to buy those huge quantities of raw materials those two industries went broke to this day., the other industries that were subsidized in many many fields slowly went bankrupt when the subsidies could not be sustained, the lasts ones being cut in 1989 by FMI advice, which was the sane thing to do, but brought a lot of unemployment and what not because so many industries closed in such a short period of time.
(Maria Corina Machado, she is a former 'oposition' presidential candidate and daughter of one of the guys that benefited from cheap steel, known back then as Machado the steel king).
This crazy model that brough huge economic growth before collapsing in 1980, was really shortlived since it only lasted 4 good years and then a steady decline. It was called, like I said before, the golden age or Saudi Venezuela by the same people that benefited. The change in mentality back then was huge, people going from small towns to the big cities could easily find work for the government for huge/disproportionate salaries, especially if they had an university degree, my mom was one, she graduated in civil engineering and thanks to my grandfather's contacts could work for the government for around 1100$ a month, easily 6-7 times today's minimum wage, even though she was a low ranked engineer, a job without much responsibilities, a lot of people had it much better. Venezuela then was known for having huge amounts of expensive sports cars and for importing real size lakes of scotch whisky and european champagne. paid by these same very rich midlee class.
The mentality of the people changed so much also thanks to propaganda of the media, owned of course by the same people who benefited from subsidies. Some people, especially white people who went to universities were raised in these types of homes, they think it's normal for a middle class person in any country to be drinking expensive champagne every weekend or change sport cars every year, I'm honest with this, it's no exaggeration... Back then so many people traveled to Miami that that city it's said (in the media back then, arrogant as always) was built by venezuelans, because a lot of venezuelans moved there or went for vacations, around 40$ billions were invested in housing by venezuelans in that city alone. They think a period like that can happend again, they are what you could say believers in the american dream we lived for only a few years, all of them are very pro-US but in a crazy way, not a realistic-good way, it's like going to NY rich parts and thinking the whole of US is like that, it is not. An anecdote, I have an aunt that is a singer, she got paid 2000$ to do some small concerts in NY last year, she came here trying to speak english (can't say more than 3 words, really) and feeling "american" and saying how great it's winning 2000$ in a week's work, she doesn't realize that's peanuts to live in NY... She's exactly from that demographic.
The president who was in charge during this period died in that city Miami, he exiled himself after being prosecuted by justice on corruption charges. Half, that is 3 out of 6, of venezuelan presidents have died in the US escaping corruption charges. Actually Chavez is only the third venezuelan president to die in our country after the democracy, the other 3, like I said...
It's sad how the media can manipulate minds and how one can live in a bubble, Chavez also created a welfare bubble for the poor people and they are for a rude awakening, it's already happening and a complete true but at least resources have been invested in the country this time and everything isn't going to waste, people getting subsidies will see them reduced like the huge reduction in wages done this year, but the disaster of the 80's it's not comming back, I predict people in the future will see Chavez's government as a second golden age depending if they were on the ends of subsidies or not, just like the leftovers of what once was a huge very rich middle class still do, so many years after.
On March 08 2013 04:47 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: They literally said you can celebrate in private over Chavez's death, or is it just people trying to dodge the national guard?
You can't make any celebration in a public manner. Since the country is "mourning" the passing of it's president, then we are not allowed to have any celebrations nor parties in public places. Also, You can't get booze .
No I understand the mourning part just fine, I'm just surprised that they would condone any celebration, even secret celebration that doesn't disrupt anyone, when the mourning is strictly enforced
On March 08 2013 04:47 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: They literally said you can celebrate in private over Chavez's death, or is it just people trying to dodge the national guard?
You can't make any celebration in a public manner. Since the country is "mourning" the passing of it's president, then we are not allowed to have any celebrations nor parties in public places. Also, You can't get booze .
No I understand the mourning part just fine, I'm just surprised that they would condone any celebration, even secret celebration that doesn't disrupt anyone, when the mourning is strictly enforced
Well, it's the way of thinking. Everyone should mourn and nobody should feel different, cause the "Libertador de Latinoamerica" passed away.
heres a very good speech mélenchon gave to the french television on chavez, a very profound look on our way to think and critique. I'm sorry for those you can't understand french. if someone can translate feel free
EPT![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez_crop.jpg/414px-Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez_crop.jpg)
.
![[image loading]](http://www.aporrea.org/imagenes/gente/maria-corina-machado-bush.jpg)
