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Alright, enough religious debate. If you want to talk about Pope Benedict and what he specifically did or didn't do, go ahead. But no more general discussion on the merits or ills of the Catholic church or their history.
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On February 12 2013 03:08 epicanthic wrote:
I honestly don't know much about Catholicism, but do the majority of believers actually still listen to and follow the word of the pope? With all the stuff about not using condoms and openly defending pedophiles that's happened, it's pretty hard to believe. It's a shame that the figureheads of such a large religion have historically been lacking in both common sense and moral integrity.
My understanding is that unless you're orthodox, most Catholics view him more of a symbolic leader rather than one whose word must be followed 100% of the time.
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Well, I don't like the catholic church or religion in general, but I honestly think it's not such a bad move for a pope to resign if he has health-problems or is simply getting too old.
From an objective standpoint, does the church really want sm1 that can barely move or can't talk in a manner that any1 even understands him, as their spiritual leader?
But of course things aren't based on common sense in the catholic church, so it's a huge upset that sm1 resigns at a reasonable age.
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He was incredibly active for someone of his age. Particularly in the modern world, with a need to maintain a constant presence, and with the problems he inherited (the child sex scandals and all that), he had a hard job.
That said, it's still interesting he's resigning without apparent health troubles.
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On February 12 2013 03:08 epicanthic wrote:
I honestly don't know much about Catholicism, but do the majority of believers actually still listen to and follow the word of the pope? With all the stuff about not using condoms and openly defending pedophiles that's happened, it's pretty hard to believe. It's a shame that the figureheads of such a large religion have historically been lacking in both common sense and moral integrity.
I'd say usually it's a typical case of doublethink/hypocrisy. While they say what the Pope says is very important, and even genuinely believe so, they will ignore many of the teachings. They will use condoms, but oftentimes admit that it's wrong. As for paedophiles, they will downplay the problem, some of them are in denial.
On the other hand, I wouldn't say most things the Pope is involved with are not that controversial, so non-believers may ignore it and believers don't have a hard time agreeing with it.
On February 12 2013 03:21 Tal wrote:
He was incredibly active for someone of his age. Particularly in the modern world, with a need to maintain a constant presence, and with the problems he inherited (the child sex scandals and all that), he had a hard job.
That said, it's still interesting he's resigning without apparent health troubles.
He did not inherit the sex scandals problem. He was one of the major contributors, not a sex offender, but someone whose policies made this into a huge issue. The problem could've been dealt with swiftly, but they chose to cover it up. This is the reason why it all backfired like that.
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This is a good move. I'm not a big fan of Ratzinger. The real fun starts when we discover who the replacement will be 
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On February 12 2013 03:21 Tal wrote:
That said, it's still interesting he's resigning without apparent health troubles.
I think he's just tired. Also he published 66 books and few other works and therefore I think he must be pretty wealthy.
On February 12 2013 02:30 Rassy wrote:
This is so unexpected and unusual, that i doubt it was 100% voluntary.
He actually stated in the book called the light of the world a few years back that pope should resign once he gets too old, so it's not all that unexpected.
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On February 11 2013 21:14 Golden Ghost wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 21:09 Eufouria wrote:On February 11 2013 20:59 Mafe wrote:
My guess is he's got a diagnosis of something like Alzeheimer's disease. And he wants a conscious leader for the catholic church. Yeah I'd say this makes the most sense. The chances that he grew a concience are lower than the chances of the next Pope being in favour of gay marriage. Why you are even contemplating he doesn´t have a concience is beyond me. Sure he has his flaws just as any human being and I don´t agree with a lot of the current policies of the Catholic church although I still consider myself a Catholic but I also believe he acts out of his fervent believes of doing good and not an intent to do evil as you seem to be suggesting.
Naturally, the papacy will attract many people who lack a conscience, but it's still more likely that he has one. If you believe you're doing the right thing, you don't need to lack a conscience to do it.
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On February 12 2013 03:22 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 03:08 epicanthic wrote:
I honestly don't know much about Catholicism, but do the majority of believers actually still listen to and follow the word of the pope? With all the stuff about not using condoms and openly defending pedophiles that's happened, it's pretty hard to believe. It's a shame that the figureheads of such a large religion have historically been lacking in both common sense and moral integrity. I'd say usually it's a typical case of doublethink/hypocrisy. While they say what the Pope says is very important, and even genuinely believe so, they will ignore many of the teachings. They will use condoms, but oftentimes admit that it's wrong. As for paedophiles, they will downplay the problem, some of them are in denial. On the other hand, I wouldn't say most things the Pope is involved with are not that controversial, so non-believers may ignore it and believers don't have a hard time agreeing with it. Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 03:21 Tal wrote:
He was incredibly active for someone of his age. Particularly in the modern world, with a need to maintain a constant presence, and with the problems he inherited (the child sex scandals and all that), he had a hard job.
That said, it's still interesting he's resigning without apparent health troubles. He did not inherit the sex scandals problem. He was one of the major contributors, not a sex offender, but someone whose policies made this into a huge issue. The problem could've been dealt with swiftly, but they chose to cover it up. This is the reason why it all backfired like that.
Yes, you're right. I didn't mean to suggest he wasn't a part of it, Iprobably should have said 'having to deal with the child sex scandals' instead of inherited 
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On February 12 2013 00:08 Reason wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 00:00 Zandar wrote:On February 11 2013 23:53 McBengt wrote:On February 11 2013 23:49 paralleluniverse wrote:On February 11 2013 23:45 Zandar wrote:On February 11 2013 23:41 ZeromuS wrote:
I just want to add to everyone reading my post.
We should try to remember that a certain amount of respect should be given to those who believe in the catholic church and god and religion etc etc. That goes both ways. Have the same respect for atheists, other religions, gays, women and you get my respect too. Do we have to have respect for Scientologists, 9/11 conspirators, pastafarians, and flat-earth creationists too? This is probably what vexes me the most. This arrogant assumption that we should always give respect to unsubstantiated beliefs because...well just because! No, I judge all claims and all people by the same standard, I don't care who or what they are, if a person is a good person I will respect him/her, if a claim can be supported by scientific evidence, I will believe it. That's it, those are the rules, and you don't get special exemptions because Jesus/Mohammad/Spaghetti Monster. The thing is, you are not going to change people's believes. So you can be like "us" and "them" or you can learn to have mutually respect while not agreeing with eachother. Do you really have mutual respect for people that believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster while not agreeing with their beliefs, or do you secretly think they are a little bit silly but in the interests of diplomacy claim to respect them? Some people prefer honesty.
I think it's still important to realize and respect the freedom of individual belief, no matter how absurd. Sure I might still think that people who truly believe in Spaghetti Monsters or 9/11 conspiracies are a bit silly or even ignorant. But that's still their freedom of thought, which I think is one of the most significant aspects of a human being.
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On February 12 2013 03:13 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 03:08 epicanthic wrote:
I honestly don't know much about Catholicism, but do the majority of believers actually still listen to and follow the word of the pope? With all the stuff about not using condoms and openly defending pedophiles that's happened, it's pretty hard to believe. It's a shame that the figureheads of such a large religion have historically been lacking in both common sense and moral integrity. My understanding is that unless you're orthodox, most Catholics view him more of a symbolic leader rather than one whose word must be followed 100% of the time.
I mean he is the leader of the church. To me its like the relationship between american citizens and the president. You may not like what he says, or agree with him, but youre sort of supposed to do what he says. Perhaps, as not the most observant catholic my view on this is flawed so if I'm just wrong it would be great if someone could correct me.
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On February 12 2013 03:44 Tal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 03:22 maybenexttime wrote:On February 12 2013 03:08 epicanthic wrote:
I honestly don't know much about Catholicism, but do the majority of believers actually still listen to and follow the word of the pope? With all the stuff about not using condoms and openly defending pedophiles that's happened, it's pretty hard to believe. It's a shame that the figureheads of such a large religion have historically been lacking in both common sense and moral integrity. I'd say usually it's a typical case of doublethink/hypocrisy. While they say what the Pope says is very important, and even genuinely believe so, they will ignore many of the teachings. They will use condoms, but oftentimes admit that it's wrong. As for paedophiles, they will downplay the problem, some of them are in denial. On the other hand, I wouldn't say most things the Pope is involved with are not that controversial, so non-believers may ignore it and believers don't have a hard time agreeing with it. On February 12 2013 03:21 Tal wrote:
He was incredibly active for someone of his age. Particularly in the modern world, with a need to maintain a constant presence, and with the problems he inherited (the child sex scandals and all that), he had a hard job.
That said, it's still interesting he's resigning without apparent health troubles. He did not inherit the sex scandals problem. He was one of the major contributors, not a sex offender, but someone whose policies made this into a huge issue. The problem could've been dealt with swiftly, but they chose to cover it up. This is the reason why it all backfired like that. Yes, you're right. I didn't mean to suggest he wasn't a part of it, Iprobably should have said 'having to deal with the child sex scandals' instead of inherited
Well, he's been dealing with the scandals since the 70s. He was the guy who threatened church officials with excommunication for sharing evidence with the authorities or the press in the early 2000s. He was pretty much running the Vatican for a sick John Paul during that time.
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DAFAQ???
Anyways, no chance whatsoever in my mind that he actually just declines cuz of health issue/ doesnt feel fit. I d be very interested in the background politics, pressures and such which led here.
When we ll have the new pope we might speculate, based on his views and actions
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1. A papal resignation is not new. The last one was in 1415, when Gregory XII resigned in order to restore the unity of the Catholic Church.
2. In many of Benedict XVI's epistolaries and pastorals, even when he was still a Cardinal, he has always written about a Pope resigning due to old age. This belief is strengthened after the experience with Pope John Paull II, who spent the last years, and days, of his papacy in physical deterioration, and devastating the Vatican and the Catholic leadership and believers worldwide
3. Being one of the most hard-working and previous head of one of the most work-heavy divisions of the Vatican, it would have been obvious to Benedict that he is unfit to meet the physical demands of the papacy.
4. The recent scandal in Vatican involving his butler, who claimed that he was exposing the documents because he thinks the Pope is not being informed of the things happening around him, must be the clinching event to him that he can no longer perform his best as Pope in managing the affairs of the Vatican.
5. The scandals are not unique to his reign, he has inherited from a hundred year since. While his action is far from admirable, he is not the be-all-and-all person to blame for it.
6. Retiring at a relatively healthier state would give the Pope some influence, though not actually vote for, on the next Pope.
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Would be interesting that if the successor is chosen from Africa if that will signal a change in attitude towards the region in terms of AIDS, and safe sex etc.
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On February 12 2013 03:08 epicanthic wrote:
I honestly don't know much about Catholicism, but do the majority of believers actually still listen to and follow the word of the pope? With all the stuff about not using condoms and openly defending pedophiles that's happened, it's pretty hard to believe. It's a shame that the figureheads of such a large religion have historically been lacking in both common sense and moral integrity.
Well I can only speak for dutch catholics I know
I know like 25 Catholics pretty well and my uncle is the only firm, conservative believer.
The others all believe in God, Christ, go to church with Christmas, want to marry in the church and that's about it. They look at the vatican pretty much the same way as I do as a none believer, but they do consider themselve catholic nonetheless.
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On February 12 2013 04:31 Zandar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 03:08 epicanthic wrote:
I honestly don't know much about Catholicism, but do the majority of believers actually still listen to and follow the word of the pope? With all the stuff about not using condoms and openly defending pedophiles that's happened, it's pretty hard to believe. It's a shame that the figureheads of such a large religion have historically been lacking in both common sense and moral integrity. Well I can only speak for dutch catholics I know I know like 25 Catholics pretty well and my uncle is the only firm, conservative believer. The others all believe in God, Christ, go to church with Christmas, want to marry in the church and that's about it. They look at the vatican pretty much the same way as I do as a none believer, but they do consider themselve catholic nonetheless.
Considering the fact that the Netherlands is one of the most liberal and "progressive" countries in Europe, I don't think Dutch Catholics are really representative of what an average Catholic believes. To me that seems like an ultracasual Christian, not even Catholic, because that involves a whole lot more than just what you've described. They consider themselves Catholics, but it's only because they were raised in families that considered themselves "Catholic". Happens in Poland, as well, but to a much lesser degree.
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On February 12 2013 04:41 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 04:31 Zandar wrote:On February 12 2013 03:08 epicanthic wrote:
I honestly don't know much about Catholicism, but do the majority of believers actually still listen to and follow the word of the pope? With all the stuff about not using condoms and openly defending pedophiles that's happened, it's pretty hard to believe. It's a shame that the figureheads of such a large religion have historically been lacking in both common sense and moral integrity. Well I can only speak for dutch catholics I know I know like 25 Catholics pretty well and my uncle is the only firm, conservative believer. The others all believe in God, Christ, go to church with Christmas, want to marry in the church and that's about it. They look at the vatican pretty much the same way as I do as a none believer, but they do consider themselve catholic nonetheless. Considering the fact that the Netherlands is one of the most liberal and "progressive" countries in Europe, I don't think Dutch Catholics are really representative of what an average Catholic believes. To me that seems like an ultracasual Christian, not even Catholic, because that involves a whole lot more than just what you've described. They consider themselves Catholics, but it's only because they were raised in families that considered themselves "Catholic". Happens in Poland, as well, but to a much lesser degree.
Yes you are totally right.
Still, the church considers them catholics and they do themselves too, so who am I to disagree 
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They should pick a cardinal from south america, well i hope they will.
Catholic church could realy use a makeover and another european pope would be a missed opportunity i think.
Hope they brave and progressive enough to elect someone from that region.
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On February 12 2013 04:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Would be interesting that if the successor is chosen from Africa if that will signal a change in attitude towards the region in terms of AIDS, and safe sex etc.
Sorry, but the Catholic Church will never change it's moral teachings on condoms etc.
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On February 12 2013 04:58 Chylo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 04:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Would be interesting that if the successor is chosen from Africa if that will signal a change in attitude towards the region in terms of AIDS, and safe sex etc. Sorry, but the Catholic Church will never change it's moral teachings on condoms etc.
Actually, it probably will, in time. Benedict already made a speech permitting condoms for prostitutes in dire need. That would have been unheard of 20 years ago. The Church is slow, but it's not motionless. Contraception, so long as it doesn't induce abortions, will likely be permitted in some capacity within the next few decades. It will probably always be frowned upon if used exclusively, though.
Glad to see him resign; very mature move. I didn't like him particularly much since he's too conservative, but he's at least a fairly upstanding man to resign due to age unlike PJPII, who stayed on far, far too long.
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EPT
